Knightfall Vader vs ROTJ Vader (Canon)

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Killmonger101

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Canon versions

Start 10 feet apart

Win by death, incap, or KO

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shroudofsorrow

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Good fight in my opinion. InB4 everyone says "Knightfall Vader STOMPS, DUH!"

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deactivated-62726473530c3

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RotJ Vader in a good fight, KFV makes him work for it and likely even wins sabers.

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frozen

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#7 frozen  Moderator

@eredin12: There's more than half a dozen sources saying Vader in grew in power post ROTS. The evidence is undeniable.

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CatMan5

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Probably Vader

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Thrawn_Fanboy

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My money is on rotj vader, simply just because of how powerful canon made vader in the comics

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GangOrca

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ROTJ Vader should win

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FreeFaceMask

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ROTJ Vader and this should've been clear already a long time ago.

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Insanity_

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ROTJ Vader. He scales above Yoda, ROTS Sidious, and Anakin.

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UED_Deus_Ex

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ROTJ Vader.

Why would Knightfall Vader who just turned into the dark side when the one in ROTJ already has more experience and power with it?

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killerboi

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ROTJ Vader

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thenamelessone

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@eredin12:

We simply don't know how much is Obi-Wan weaker and that was purely a saber fight

Nah man , lets just ignore the fact that Obi Wan was getting freaking Slaughtered in the fight and had literally no hope of winning and he felt like he was striking iron and he was in great pain just from a minute of dueling

Your powers are weak, old man." Our lightsabers clash. I try to push forward, only to be thrust violently back. It's like striking iron. There's no give in Vader's arms, and far too much in mine.

"You should not have come back," Vader tells me.

My resources are depleted, my body screaming with pain. I have no hope of winning this fight.

--I'm forced back, muscle burning, breath ragged. The grip of my lightsaber is slick in my hands, my ears ringing. - Obi-Wan Kenobi [Time of Death]

- From a Certain Point of View

.And if having midi-chlorians in your blood is part of what makes you feel the Force, these are beings that are suddenly subtracted from that.

Literally states o no such thing, he is also talking about Siths and not just Vader here, this quote has nothing to do with power

nah dude , just means TPM Anakin is stronger then TPM Yoda

"We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor. "

https://www.starwars.com/news/dave-filoni-interview-star-wars-rebels-season-two-part-1

ah so the scaling chain must be Rebels Vader ~ Rebels sidious ~ Rebels Ashoka

love Nonsensical Author quotes!

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thenamelessone

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A Bit Less Sarcasm - ROTJ Vader mid diffs or high diffs , have multiple superiority quotes .

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DarthAdi

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Suit Vader high diffs.

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thenamelessone

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#27  Edited By thenamelessone

Vader wins mid diff

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

More powerful than ever before in the Force as well as mastery of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star. Updated to match his appearance in Return of the Jedi, the fallen Jedi stands with his crimson lightsaber at the ready for both attack and defense. A tall and imposing figure, Vader is like a coiled viper with his legs slightly bent and his lightsaber held in both hands. The Dark Lord’s armor is intricately detailed and sculpted perfectly to match its appearance in the film with all of the mechanical and cloth elements distinctly textured. You can even display Vader in a variety of poses and looks with multiple interchangeable arm parts and head pieces featuring the iconic helmet or the unmasked Anakin Skywalker! Like all Star Wars ARTFX+ Statues, he has magnets in his feet for display on the included base.

also

“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”

-- A New Hope

his power is great now , Greater then It had ever been

- Return of the Jedi

Vader completed his meditation and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force." -

Lords of the Sith

tho Anakin can defeat ROTS vader as shown by these quotes

It was a great pity, Darth Sidious thought, controlling his anger, but perhaps not irreparable. Even diminished, Darth Vader would still be very strong, and there were no Jedi left to challenge him. Darth Sidious had seen to that himself. So he kept walking until he could bend over the body. And to his surprise, his apprentice was still alive.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

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thenamelessone

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@hellothere5432:

Ah yes, struggling with Karbin,

didn't KFV lose to Obi wan and Vader beat Kirak few weeks after creation lol?

Old Ben,

yep , its definitly vader struggling

Your powers are weak, old man." Our lightsabers clash. I try to push forward, only to be thrust violently back. It's like striking iron. There's no give in Vader's arms, and far too much in mine.

"You should not have come back," Vader tells me.

My resources are depleted, my body screaming with pain. I have no hope of winning this fight.

--I'm forced back, muscle burning, breath ragged. The grip of my lightsaber is slick in my hands, my ears ringing. - Obi-Wan Kenobi [Time of Death]

- From a Certain Point of View

Ashoka,

He didn't struggle with her kek , the moment he went serious he beat her in 20 seconds

being stated to be peers with a severely past prime and out of practice Maul

Non Canonical Author quotes lmao , same people think Ashoka can go blow to blow with Rebels Sidious

"We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor. "

https://www.starwars.com/news/dave-filoni-interview-star-wars-rebels-season-two-part-1

are totally better than being above someone who utterly stomped Dooku.

Anakin didn't utterly stomp anyone in canon

Dooku appeared, engaging both Jedi at the same time. He first defeated Obi-Wan, Force choking him and nearly crushing the Jedi Master with a heavy railing. An enraged Anakin continued the fight, unleashing a strength Dooku had not anticipated. The young Jedi cut off the Sith Lord’s hands, drew Dooku’s lightsaber to him, and the Separatist leader fell to his knees.

-- http://www.starwars.com/databank/count-dooku

OT: KFV. SW.com confirms his superiority and it's reviewed by the story group, inherently making it far more valid than any source saying otherwise.

nice , KFV is stronger then Vader who is literally on the table , god good

Hidalgo has also said KFV > Vader.

Writer statements mean jackshit in canon until they are explaining some scenes they are directing

Also lines up with Filoni saying Rebels Maul and Rebels Vader were peers

sure....peers

No Caption Provided

and Vader's struggling with Old Ben,

never happened

Ashoka,

never happened

and the like. ROTS Junior novel also says KFV > Vader

again , never happened .

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Spiders13

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KFV wins.

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deactivated-62726473530c3

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@eredin12:

Let me show you something, this is how it looks when the novel is written from the characters POV:

""Get in!" I yelled. I uncapped Riptide and slashed the first volley of arrows out of the air"

Compare that to Lords of Sith and see the difference, it was not Vader saying "I grew stronger" which would be the case if the novel was written from his POV like in Percy's novel above. It was the narrator who confirmed it in the case of Vader

But that is a concept you don't know due to you not reading books

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/writing-fiction-in-third-person-1277122

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doyul

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ROTJ.

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deactivated-62726473530c3

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@eredin12:

That passage is very much written from Vaders POV and limited by his own thoughts and personal views.

It terrified others, he knew, and that pleased him. Their terror was a tool he used to accomplish his ends. Yoda once had told him that fear led to hate and hate to suffering. But Yoda had been wrong. Fear was a tool used by the strong to cow the weak. Hate was the font of true strength. Suffering was not the result of the rule of the strong over the weak, order was. By its very existence, the Force mandated the rule of the strong over the weak; the Force mandated order. The Jedi had never seen that, and so they’d misunderstood the Force and been destroyed. But Vader’s Master saw it. Vader saw it. And so they were strong. And so they ruled.

Unless of course you want to tell me the "omniscient narrator" claims that Vader and Sidious are in the right and the Jedi deserved to be destroyed, which would show a rather poor understanding of the message SW as a whole wants to convey.

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deactivated-62726473530c3

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@eredin12:

I am afraid this interpretation isn't going to cut it. Canon Vader has referred to his past as a Jedi on multiple occasions, be it in the post-ROTS Vader comics, against Ben Kenobi or with Luke, so him reflecting and musing on his past in private is hardly indication of anything, let alone a supposed shift in narrator, especially considering he denounces his Jedi self as weak and misguided. The narration of the very same passage has clear indications of being from Vaders own (biased) perspective:

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

(..)

Once, he’d found the armor hateful, foreign, but now he knew better.He realized that he’d always been fated to wear it, just as the Jedi had always been fated to betray their principles. He’d always been fated to face Obi-Wan and fail on Mustafar—and in failing, learn.

The armor separated him from the galaxy, from everyone, made him singular, freed him from the needs of the flesh, the concerns of the body that once had plagued him, and allowed him to focus solely on his relationship to the Force.

It terrified others, he knew, and that pleased him. Their terror was a tool he used to accomplish his ends. Yoda once had told him that fear led to hate and hate to suffering. But Yoda had been wrong. Fear was a tool used by the strong to cow the weak. Hate was the font of true strength. Suffering was not the result of the rule of the strong over the weak, order was. By its very existence, the Force mandated the rule of the strong over the weak; the Force mandated order. The Jedi had never seen that, and so they’d misunderstood the Force and been destroyed. But Vader’s Master saw it. Vader saw it. And so they were strong. And so they ruled.

(...)

It was his duty to rule them all. He saw that now. It was the manifest will of the Force. Existence without proper rule was chaos, disorder, suboptimal. The Force—invisible but ubiquitous—bent toward order and was the tool through which order could and must be imposed, but not through harmony, not through peaceful coexistence. That had been the approach of the Jedi, a foolish, failed approach that only fomented more disorder. Vader and his Master imposed order the only way it could be imposed, the way the Force required that it be imposed, through conquest, by forcing the disorder to submit to the order, by bending the weak to the will of the strong.

The history of Jedi influence in the galaxy was a history of disorder and the sporadic wars disorder bred. The history of the Empire would be one of enforced peace, of imposed order.

I hope I don't have to explain to you that this chapter has one, singular narrator, and that this narrator doesn't randomly switch in-between sentences, considering this is basic grade school stuff. So you're left with either the author supporting Vaders genocidal and dictatorial views and thus having his omniscient narrator stating them as fact, or we have a third person limited narrator paraphrasing Vaders inner thoughts. One of these is just slightly more rational than the other, and its not the passage having an omniscient narrator.

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JediSympathiz3r

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ROTJ Vader wins but he’s not stomping. His best dueling feat is heavily struggling against a Maul level character

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marygcrisostomo

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Vader

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macattack1

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#41 macattack1  Online

Legends: KFV Vader

Canon: ROTJ Vader

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Grinningf0x

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Pretty clearly ROTJ Vader

Better Force showings by far

Better Durability and endurance

Intimate knowledge of how Anakin fights so that would negate any saber advantage (tho I don’t think Anakin would have any significant edge)

ROTJ Vader takes it every time

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thenamelessone

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#47  Edited By thenamelessone

ok not tagging , as I apparently agreed to something way back .

Anyway, I'll just respond to this once

don't you say that every other post?

When he was emotionally hindered.

Vader was hindered in his fight with Ben in legends as well , doesn't seem like you mention it much , do you?

Vader having flashbacks

There had always been in Vader a small bit of worry about this day. Not much; just a trace. He had been sure, in his youthful arrogance, that he had been stronger, had been better than the Jedi Knight who had been his teacher, and the memory of what Obi-Wan had done to him would never be erased. He had been a superior fighter even when he had been Anakin Skywalker, and yet Obi-Wan had defeated him.

-

There he was. After so much time and across so much space, the hooded figure of Obi-Wan Kenobi, his former Master and friend, stood right in front of him. He had aged; his face was lined, his beard white. It was impossible not to remember vividly the last time they had seen each other, when his Master had crippled him and left him to die on the fiery banks of a river of molten rock, light-years from here.

-

Vader looked up at the ship's hull. "I sense something... a presence I've not felt since.. ." Since Mustafar. Then it hit him. Obi-Wan Kenobi... He's alive

Vader Being on defensive and quickly winning once he went to offensive

Obi-Wan angled his lightsaber to assume an offensive position. Vader continued, "When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master."

"Only a master of evil, Darth." With that, Obi-Wan stepped in and cut. Vader blocked the attack easily. Obi-Wan attacked again, and again, Vader blocked each strike. If the old man thought he could rattle him by attacking instead of defending, he was mistaken. Vader riposted, sped up his timing, and took the initiative, forcing the erstwhile Jedi to defend.

Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked by a lightning movement of the Sith. A masterful slash stroke by Vader is blocked by the old Jedi. Another of the Jedi's blows is blocked, then countered. 99. Ben moves around the Dark Lord and starts backing into the massive starship hangar. The two powerful warriors stand motionless for a few moments with laser swords locked in midair, creating a low buzzing sound.

"I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan," Vader said as he moved closer to the elderly Jedi Knight. "We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete."

MF Obi Wan is also well above anyone Vader has ever beaten.

sure he is....

Vader sets his sights on a Jedi who's avoided Order 66…

…a Jedi Master who's long lived in seclusion…

…a Jedi more powerful than any Vader has faced before…

-- https://www.newsarama.com/34087-marvel-comics-full-july-2017-solicitations.html

Did you just ignore the other two canon sources pointing to the exact opposite of a stomp? I'll just post them again for you:

lets take a look at your " sources "

Obi-Wan seems to be winning the climactic duel against Darth Vader, even calling his opponent "only a master of evil". But then- shocker- he just gives up. Why?

Source: Star Wars Made Easy

^ laughworthy and contradicted by whats seen on screen

No Caption Provided

Ben was getting pushed back abd was on the defensive the entire duel , so him " winning " is something not Supported by the film itself

and your other source shows Vader straining Him by his presence alone LMFAO

The two Galactic warriors stand perfectly still for a few moments, sizing each other up and waiting for the right moment. Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain, as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes.

a nice display of Vader's Superiority

There's also the film pointing to a closely matched fight.

The Film potrays a Vader fighting weirdly compared to his usual style with a very defensive approach , so that doesn't help iou either

And why pray tell,

huh what?

was he holding back at all? Especially considering he swung at her head multiple times.

when he actually started fighting seriously , aka after

Then You will die

Ashoka was losing in around 30 seconds and could barely hold him off

And Filoni, the guy who made the fight has already said Ashoka can give Vader a fight.

same Filoni also thinks If sidious and Ashoka have a fight , they would go " blow for blow "

"We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor. "

https://www.starwars.com/news/dave-filoni-interview-star-wars-rebels-season-two-part-1

and ofcourse , the lack of relevance of Word of God in canon as per Matt Martin , your points are really weightless here .

Get over it

there is nothing to get over

Not what he's saying lol.

its exactly what he is saying

He's saying Sidious and Vader are capable of matching h er blow for blow. Doesn't mean they are peers. It just means Sidious can do so if he needs to.

why would sidious ever need to go blow for blow with her? you go with the idea that is in The Narratival context of only reffering to people Ashoka would go against , while completely Ignoring the fact Palpatine holds zero reason to not go all out against Ashoka?

Contradicted by a vast wealth of quotes, including from Lucas the guy who made the fight saying otherwise

every single quote you'd present would be bound by Offguardness so a moot point , Lucas quotes hold no meaning in canon + Senior Novelization of Revenge of The Sith ( your bread and butter regarding Zonakin vs The Count ) ks not canonical either , so...yea , Zonakin didn't " stop " the count in canon continouty .

Vader's broken body weakened him.

Vader's broken body was never fixed.

So yes, this is for good.

nice argument , too bad power in star wars isn't limited to initial body hindrances and the growth of spirit = growth in force which directly augments strength

Vader completed his meditation and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force." -

Lords of the Sith

god good

You're a religious man?

Hilarious.

Yup , your arguments on the thread have been rather comedic so far

Literally never happened.

A New Hope Vader is a stomp gap above A New Hope Obi wan , in either continouty

The one source on your side is counteracted by another source saying Ben was winning

and the idea he was winning is counteracted by the film itself

and the script showing anything but a stomp. The most you can argue is for Vader to have had a slim edge

Slim Edge huh?

The two Galactic warriors stand perfectly still for a few moments, sizing each other up and waiting for the right moment. Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain, as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes.

a nice display of Vader's Superiority

People with Slim Edge get strained and Hurt by the mere existence of their supposed peers?

Rather explicit hyperbole.

basis of it being a hyberbole? Lightyears thing isn't hyberbolic as its practically saying " X is better then Y by miles! " but removing the mile with Lightyears for Sci fi Approach

Film also clearly shows anything but a stomp.

TCW shows Pre Viszla fighting Maul , then we see Ashoka being matched in Mandalorian by that stick lady and such , the Duration of battle have nothing yo do with its Context .

Fighting for two minutes,

In that two minutes she got pushed back like what.....200 feet?

being tagged by a force push

a force push at the start of the fight which did absolutely nothing

and only winning due to Ashoka being caught off guard is hardly a "casual" victory.

proof her Force defenses which were up the entire fight went down?

And Filoni's already confirmed Ashoka is out of Vader's stomp range.

and Martin already confirmed that Author quotes are irrelevant , the " actual storytelling " from Hidalgo would verify Filoni saying something like " this scene have X context " not " this character ~ this character "

Lasting 30 seconds isn't a "wreck." The fight was a mid diff

30 seconds where Vader didn't use his strongest suit in force

Such as? Scaling only supports this.

scaling supports that a guy > Knightfall Vader is on par with......Rebels Maul?

What with Rebels Maul noticeably outperforming Ashoka against the Inquisitors and is confirmed above her.

their fight already potrayed them as equals

The same Ashoka who gave Vader a fight

Ashoka gave Vader as much of a fight as Barriss offee gave Anakin ..

Said quote was overseen by the story group. Aka the people in charge of SW canon.

nobody ever denied Knightfall Vader is stronger than Table Vader tho , maybe a close fight but Knightfall Vader wins about every time

There's also the other quote I posted above + a few Filoni quotes and a Hidalgo quote.

yea , Author quotes , in canon .

One quote from Vader's POV, aka from the point of view of someone who despises his pre-suit self and has a massive ego. Dismissed.

oh really? ok then , Guess I have to mention how he literally admits his body was destroyed which is why his spirit was strengthened kek and also , does Vader refer to himself in third person or did you miss the part about pain , hate and strength?

Vader completed his meditation and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force." -

Lords of the Sith

This is citing MF Vader who is hindered (link)

lmfao ok Buddy , the Hindrances stop him from tapping well into his power , not decrease it as a whole

Vader growing post Mustafar has no bearing on his pre-Mustafar state. Given how weakened he was from his injuries

he had constant growth and considering he surpassed Anakin is Lord of the Sith , that just makes the gap larger , and larger

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thenamelessone

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