Knightfall Vader vs Count Dooku x2

Avatar image for deactivated-61be3a6348c41
deactivated-61be3a6348c41

159

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Knightfall Vader:

No Caption Provided

Count Dooku(x2)

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Rules:

The Dooku's are in their primes.

No prep.

Standard gear and knowledge.

Start 20m apart.

R1:Canon

R2:Legends

Fights takes place in the Mandalorian throne room.

Who wins and why?

Avatar image for deactivated-61be3a6348c41
deactivated-61be3a6348c41

159

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

And no, one Dooku isn't coming close to soloing:

KFV is confirmed as far above one Dooku:

How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground."

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels."

"In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines."

"Dooku & Maul are 8."

Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous.

No Caption Provided

But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor– he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Source: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-20050602

Avatar image for deactivated-61be3a6348c41
deactivated-61be3a6348c41

159

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@redheathen Apologies, forgot to tag you in the callouts.

Avatar image for darthor
Darthor

3180

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

KFV solidly. KFV >> Zonakin >> Dooku.

Also, KFV is a nine, Dooku is eight, and the gap between levels are massive

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

10097

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I'm detecting a certain theme here.

Avatar image for darthor
Darthor

3180

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for deactivated-630560a069a21
deactivated-630560a069a21

117

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for deactivated-62726473530c3
deactivated-62726473530c3

1633

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for redheathen
redheathen

2705

Forum Posts

31

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I discussed this in the "How many Count Dooku's to defeat ROTS Sidious" (or similar) thread. Basically, two Dooku's are not enough to defeat KFV, and I based that on the fact that ROTS Jedi Anakin already was trouble for Dooku. Zonakin noticeably dwarfed Dooku in every way imaginable, and KFV was even more powerful and skilled. I think KFV could defeat both Dooku's with maybe a little bit of effort.

Avatar image for Aristeaus
Aristeaus

4309

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

KFV is not a 9. People need to stop saying that. Nick is a moron. He also said Jedi Anakin, not even Zonakin, is a 9. lol

Two dookus can beat Cannon KFV. In general, two 8.5s can take a 9.

Avatar image for redheathen
redheathen

2705

Forum Posts

31

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

KFV is not a 9. People need to stop saying that. Nick is a moron. He also said Jedi Anakin, not even Zonakin, is a 9. lol

Two dookus can beat Cannon KFV. In general, two 8.5s can take a 9.

The tiering wasn't Gillard's. It was Lucas', but either way, the statement about ROTS Anakin = 9 was published in two official sources, including the official SW newsletter, the Homing Beacon, issue number 126.

We do not know that Dooku is an 8.5, but even if he was, the scaling works like a Richter scale, and here is how an 8.5 compares to a 9, per the USGS:

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for Aristeaus
Aristeaus

4309

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

He actually said the opposite, that Anakin started off as an 8 like Obi-Wan.

Incorrect. So Nick G is famous for changing his mind, so can't really blame you here.

In the first tier list, 2005, he puts Anakin at 9. In the second tier list, in 2011, he puts Anakin at Yoda/Sidious, but above them.

In the interview with homing beacon, he stated that Anakin became a 9 between AOTC and ROTS, and he is "unbeatable" and "Far more powerful then anyone in the Galaxy". Specifically not Dark Side Anakin. He then went on to say that only Yoda and Sidious are 9s.... in the SAME interview.

What you are referring to is a interview in 2016, where he once again changed his mind on Anakin, on the Saberproject youtube channel, where he describes the Dark Side as Force LSD, and it made him a 9.

But, super important to note, that the Dark Side is not mentioned in 99% of Nick Gillard quotes involving Anakin. He was talking about Jedi Anakin, and then backtracked to include the Dark Side later.

Avatar image for donloota
donloota

544

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for anakinvader99
AnakinVader99

577

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

KFV is not a 9. People need to stop saying that.

As soon as you prove he is not

Nick is a moron.

Oh yes guy from the internet who has clearly been working in the prequels all along surely i can take your opinion instead of throwing it aside

He also said Jedi Anakin, not even Zonakin, is a 9. lol

He specifically said it was the dark side that made him a 9

Two dookus can beat Cannon KFV. In general, two 8.5s can take a 9.

Of course

Avatar image for anakinvader99
AnakinVader99

577

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@w4nkdestroyer2 said:

He actually said the opposite, that Anakin started off as an 8 like Obi-Wan.

Incorrect. So Nick G is famous for changing his mind, so can't really blame you here.

Every guy involved in SW changes their mind

In the first tier list, 2005, he puts Anakin at 9. In the second tier list, in 2011, he puts Anakin at Yoda/Sidious, but above them.

He is known for putting Anakin above them in 2005 i can give you 3 sources that say that

In the interview with homing beacon, he stated that Anakin became a 9 between AOTC and ROTS, and he is "unbeatable" and "Far more powerful then anyone in the Galaxy". Specifically not Dark Side Anakin.

Evidence?

He then went on to say that only Yoda and Sidious are 9s.... in the SAME interview.

There is a difference in between levels you know

What you are referring to is a interview in 2016, where he once again changed his mind on Anakin, on the Saberproject youtube channel, where he describes the Dark Side as Force LSD, and it made him a 9.

Evidence he didn't account for that?

But, super important to note, that the Dark Side is not mentioned in 99% of Nick Gillard quotes involving Anakin. He was talking about Jedi Anakin, and then backtracked to include the Dark Side later.

Evidence? Anakin is dark side 99% percent of his fights

Avatar image for deactivated-62726473530c3
deactivated-62726473530c3

1633

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Lmao at dark side Anakin not being a 9 based on absolutely nothing.

Avatar image for Aristeaus
Aristeaus

4309

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@Aristeaus:

KFV is not a 9

I find it interesting that you claim I know nothing about legends yet deny this fact which has been established by multiple quotes.

Lucas has confirmed KFV~Sidious:

"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Source: George Lucas and the Cult of Darth Vader

And I trust you are aware of ROTS Sidious being a tier 9.

That isn't what that quote means. He is specifically talking about potential. There is context that you are avoiding. If we want to take it literally, hes not talking about KFV, hes talking about MSV... etc.

Don't know why people cling to that quote like they struck gold. lol

Avatar image for Aristeaus
Aristeaus

4309

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@Aristeaus:

That isn't what that quote means. He is specifically talking about potential. There is context that you are avoiding. If we want to take it literally, hes not talking about KFV, hes talking about MSV... etc.

Don't know why people cling to that quote like they struck gold. lol

KFV was "as strong as Sidious." Not talking about potential especially since it's established that KFV had a much higher potential than Sidious.

And MFV and KFV are practically the same power wise, MFV just can't access it due to emotional hinderances.

Sigh.

He wasn’t what he was supposed to become.

Not sure if English is your first language or not, but that is a future tense. That is potential.

Avatar image for deactivated-62726473530c3
deactivated-62726473530c3

1633

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@Aristeaus:

"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Two different statements, this is basic English really. He went from being as strong as the Emperor to weaker than him, in league with Maul and Dooku. He doesn't get to be as powerful as he was supposed to become, which is >> Sidious. We know the first statement doesn't refer to potential, because he is stated to be able to become twice as strong as Sidious, not just "as strong" as him.

"So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him."

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

32621

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#32 frozen  Moderator

@Aristeaus:

Sigh.

He wasn’t what he was supposed to become.

Not sure if English is your first language or not, but that is a future tense. That is potential.

Referring to KFV being supposed to become far stronger than Sidious. Doesn't contradict KFV being ~ Sidious at all.

KFV was "as strong as Sidious." Clearly present tense.

@uhu123 said:

@Aristeaus:

"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Two different statements, this is basic English really. He went from being as strong as the Emperor to weaker than him, in league with Maul and Dooku. He doesn't get to be as powerful as he was supposed to become, which is >> Sidious. We know the first statement doesn't refer to potential, because he is stated to be able to become twice as strong as Sidious, not just "as strong" as him.

"So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him."

Spot on.

It amazes me how people can't grasp this quote lol. He was obviously saying he was previously as strong as Sidious.

Avatar image for Aristeaus
Aristeaus

4309

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:
@hellothere5432 said:

@Aristeaus:

Sigh.

He wasn’t what he was supposed to become.

Not sure if English is your first language or not, but that is a future tense. That is potential.

Referring to KFV being supposed to become far stronger than Sidious. Doesn't contradict KFV being ~ Sidious at all.

KFV was "as strong as Sidious." Clearly present tense.

@uhu123 said:

@Aristeaus:

"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Two different statements, this is basic English really. He went from being as strong as the Emperor to weaker than him, in league with Maul and Dooku. He doesn't get to be as powerful as he was supposed to become, which is >> Sidious. We know the first statement doesn't refer to potential, because he is stated to be able to become twice as strong as Sidious, not just "as strong" as him.

"So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him."

Spot on.

It amazes me how people can't grasp this quote lol. He was obviously saying he was previously as strong as Sidious.

Nope. Read the whole quote.

You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

This quote doesn't even make sense first of all. Sith do not want people stronger then them, because by their very nature they kill each other. At no point would a 200% Vader help Sidious rule the galaxy.

Secondly, they aren't two different statements. They are the same line of thought. "He wasn't what he was supposed to become" is a dependent statement. It literally depends on the previous sentence.

Thirdly, we have a direct quote that states that Vader "will become" more powerful the Sidious/Yoda. This only leaves two scenarios:

Either Vader is weaker then both, or Vader is EXACTLY the same strength as both.

You gotta be pretty damn narrow minded to think that Vaders Dark Side power boosted him to a very, very specific level of power. Not above, and not below....

Hes clearly weaker.

Finally, Uhtu.... My dude.

Sidious is still better than KF Vader at everything, he takes it at least 7-8/10. Just because Vader is a Tier 9 does not mean he is equal to Yoda/Sidious, just as Dooku, Kenobi, Grievous and Maul are not despite all being in the same Tier. Vader MIGHT outlast/overpower Sidious if he gets angry enough, but I see him falling way before that.

You said this 1 month ago, in a sabers only thread. Not sure why you are now arguing that statement as KFV = Sidious.

Avatar image for deactivated-62726473530c3
deactivated-62726473530c3

1633

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@Aristeaus:

This quote doesn't even make sense first of all. Sith do not want people stronger then them, because by their very nature they kill each other. At no point would a 200% Vader help Sidious rule the galaxy.

Sidious is arrogant, manipulative and infinitely smarter than Anakin, as well as having leverage due to Padmé and her children. There is no reason he wouldn't think he'd be able to keep Vader under control despite the latter becoming more powerful than him.

Secondly, they aren't two different statements. They are the same line of thought. "He wasn't what he was supposed to become" is a dependent statement. It literally depends on the previous sentence.

Do you really want me to break this down?

  1. Emperor searches for someone who would become more powerful than him -> Anakin
  2. Obi-Wan happens -> Vader can no longer become more powerful than Palpatine
  3. Anakin went from as strong as Sidious to weaker than him, like Dooku or Maul.
  4. ROTJ Vader is not more powerful than Sidious -> but Luke can fulfill that potential.

He wasn't what he was supposed to become refers to his potential, but in orderto no longer be as powerful as Sidious after Mustafar he had to be as powerful as him previously.

Thirdly, we have a direct quote that states that Vader "will become" more powerful the Sidious/Yoda.

Fallible character opinions don't mean anything.

Vader is EXACTLY the same strength as both.

You gotta be pretty damn narrow minded to think that Vaders Dark Side power boosted him to a very, very specific level of power. Not above, and not below....

Why not when that is exactly what was stated?

You said this 1 month ago, in a sabers only thread. Not sure why you are now arguing that statement as KFV = Sidious.

Opinions are allowed to change? While I still believe Sidious probably beats Vader due to psychological reasons, probably like 6/10, to claim they aren't comparable or not even in the same tier is absolute nonsense. Not that a sabers only discussion matters when we are discussing power here, where KF Vader is directly stated to be peer of Sidious.

Avatar image for Aristeaus
Aristeaus

4309

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@uhu123 said:

@Aristeaus:

Sidious is arrogant, manipulative and infinitely smarter than Anakin, as well as having leverage due to Padmé and her children. There is no reason he wouldn't think he'd be able to keep Vader under control despite the latter becoming more powerful than him.

Hes specifically talking about Sith in general. It is in their very nature to kill their masters. Plagueis was undoubtably smarter then Sidious at the time, but he still died.

Fallible character opinions don't mean anything.

That is cute. Sidious is so much smarter then people, but he is now fallible, yet you cling to a random articles quote from Lucas who has flip flopped on star wars topics more times then anyone cares to count.

Why not when that is exactly what was stated?

A random Lucas quote. You literally have one quote. Everything else points to Sidious > Anakin.

If Anakin was anywhere near Palpatines strength, Obi-Wan wouldn't have stood a chance. Hindered or not.

We also have a Lucas quote that literally says you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious.

We have Sidious's Actor stating he is MUCH more powerful then Anakin.

Yoda sends Obi-Wan to fight Anakin specifically because he know Palpatine is stronger.

Avatar image for deactivated-62726473530c3
deactivated-62726473530c3

1633

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@Aristeaus:

Hes specifically talking about Sith in general. It is in their very nature to kill their masters. Plagueis was undoubtably smarter then Sidious at the time, but he still died.

You do know how the Rule of Two works, right? The master absolutely wants his apprentice to surpass him, so Lucas ´ statement is undoubtedly correct. I would also hesitate to call the man who thought he could rule as an equal with Sidious, overlooked his apprentice training his own apprentice and getting drunk and falling asleep in the company of said apprentice the very night he was no longer necessary for Palpatines ascension to chancellor as smarter than the machiavellian schemer who destroyed the Jedi and brought down the republic from the inside.

That is cute. Sidious is so much smarter then people, but he is now fallible, yet you cling to a random articles quote from Lucas who has flip flopped on star wars topics more times then anyone cares to count.

He is also arrogant, has no way of knowing just how powerful Anakin grew before Mustafar and never says Anakin is weaker than them either.

A random Lucas quote. You literally have one quote. Everything else points to Sidious > Anakin.

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived.

Source: The Making of Revenge of the Sith

"Fully defeated by just anyone, the dark side cannot be, but only by the Chosen One. And who might be this Jedi? Know I do not, but not yet born is he or she. This much, sense I can. A vessel of pure Force the Chosen One will be, more powerful than any Jedi in history."

Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Even after all these months, she couldn't make herself entirely believe that actual Jedi blood ran in her veins-not only Jedi blood, but the blood of arguably the most powerful Jedi in history.

Source: Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor

Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years.

Source: Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

"We won't try, Anakin. We will do. After all, they are only Senators. Most of them couldn't hide what they're thinking from a brain-damaged blindworm, let alone the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Obi-Wan Kenobi has endured the unenviable task of training the Jedi Order's most powerful and headstrong young Jedi, Anakin Skywalker.

Source: Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil
"Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe."Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp

In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.

Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/palpatine.asp
"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire."Source: Revenge of the Sith

"What? How can you do this? This is outrageous! It’s unfair! I’m more powerful than any of you. How can you be on the Council and not be a Master?"

"Take a seat, young Skywalker . . ."

...

Everything in his life had led to this point because Anakin Skywalker’s destiny had been subverted and warped by well-meaning but blind Masters, sending him off on a tangent to do a flawed Palpatine’s bidding instead of realizing his own full power.

I’m more powerful than any of you.

It was a boy’s expression of anger, but it was true.

Source: Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines

One random quote, huh?

If Anakin was anywhere near Palpatines strength, Obi-Wan wouldn't have stood a chance. Hindered or not.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/uhu123/blog/

We also have a Lucas quote that literally says you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious.

Are you sure you really want to use that quote?

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

Anakin is mentioned in the very next sentence as not only contending but beating him. Now, it might refer to sometime in the future or immediately after Mustafar (as Anakin intended to overthrow Palpatine pretty much right away), but you certainly can't use that quote to argue against a Sidious-level KF Vader.

We have Sidious's Actor stating he is MUCH more powerful then Anakin.

Look who's using random statements from people with no authority now.

Yoda sends Obi-Wan to fight Anakin specifically because he know Palpatine is stronger.

Yoda has no way of knowing how strong Palpatine is, he only knew Palps killed Mace and the B-Team by himself. In fact, Yoda didn't think he himself stood much of a chance.

"To visit our new Emperor, my job will be." Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance." "True," Yoda said. "But both of us apart, a chance we might create ..."

Yoda also knew about the familiarity Obi-Wan had with Anakin, still had light-side Anakins power in mind and simply had no-one else to send given he knew Obi-Wan would die against Sidious.