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#301 Posted by GrandmasterGoat (67 posts) - - Show Bio
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#302 Posted by Deadlyeyes (112 posts) - - Show Bio
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#303 Posted by GrandmasterGoat (67 posts) - - Show Bio
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#304 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3352 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Will respond later if I can muster the energy. Still trying to get through Lord Tenebrous's monstrosity of a post.

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#305 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3352 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadlyeyes

Source for Kenobi being amped on Mustafar?

There's a lengthy blog on it which I can link for you however my opinion on the matter has somewhat changed so I'm not going to really push this point.

Link.

Also, Yoda managed to stomp Dooku on a darkside nexus on Vjun in Dark Rendezvous, despite being hindered.

That was in absolutely no way a stomp lol. Yoda has never once stomped Dooku and while I have no doubt he could as of ROTS (definitely not on a DS Nexus though) the fact remains your referencing events which never happened.

Here's the Yoda vs Dooku fight in Yoda Dark Rendevous:

With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half.

Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below. "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

The fight starts with Dooku slashing Yoda across the side and while it is true Yoda was unarmed it is equally true that Dooku was a blur and managed to hit Yoda with his blade.

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.

"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.

Once again Dooku tags Yoda with his blade and he was noted to be incredibly fast. It was purely his speed which was allowing him to hit Yoda (Yoda was armed in this instance as well unlike before). I don't think a stomp entails Yoda being unable to react to Dooku twice.

"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."

"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.

Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire. "Yes—but Yoda knows how to live!"

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to."

Surely in a "stomp" Dooku wouldn't be "slowly" giving way and blocking Yoda strikes but rather be barely blocking his strikes and being quickly pushed back. Doesn't seem to be much of a stomp.

Some actual examples of a stomp:

Example (1): Galen Marek vs Darth Vader

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot.

Vader is instantly put on his back foot as opposed to being "slowly" pushed back.

"You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking.

Vade's cape is shortly after slashed showing how he can barely defend himself and that Galen's strikes were incredibly close to his person.

The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way, I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

The two engage in a blade lock which Vader is completely unable to break out of. He is being forced by Galen to stay in the blade lock which Galen is controlling pushing him on his back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

Self-explanatory. Galen ends the fight quickly and brutally.

So just to summarise Vader is pushed on his back foot with a strike landing close to his person and he's also unable to disengage from a bladelock as well as the clash ending in a mere few strikes.

Examples (2): Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer evens tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

Extremely obvious it is a stomp. Dooku can barely meet Anakin's strikes and must draw off great amounts of his reserves to meet Anakin's attacks without being cut in half. Not to mention he stops striking back and he can barely feel the room around him meanwhile Anakin is coming along tirelessly beating down his defence.

Example (3): Darth Vader vs Luke Skywalker

https://youtu.be/U1MnMA0TzGI?t=245

Vader was beaten back easily by Luke, gives a lot of ground and could barely hold on with his guard being absolutely hammered at the end. In a total of 40 seconds Vader was on the floor having been completely destroyed.

These are stomps. Dooku being slowly pushed back does not qualify as one and it becomes more obvious that the two are close as the text goes on.

Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze. “Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.

Here both combatants strike incredibly close to each other which surely wouldn't happen if Dooku was being "stomped" as you claim.

Not to mention Yoda was described as breathing hard showing he was fatigued by the duel and definitely was not stomping.

"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.

Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fuelled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's.

Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me...love you enough to destroy you I do."

Oh, look at that. Another section of the fight where Yoda and Dooku clash blades repeatedly with neither having the edge and both engaging in a blade lock. Like it or not both combatants were incredibly close.

Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.

Dooku was being pushed back but even then, he still counters Yoda's every move only finally succumbing to exhaustion after a long battle.

Yoda cocked his head. "A choice made, have you, Count?"

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So, I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed." Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement. "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So, what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives—or taking mine?"

And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly...But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armoured kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux. With a snort, Yoda turned his eyes to the sky and picked out the glowing dot racing in from the horizon. Below him, Dooku landed softly on the ground and melted into the rose gardens.

Now Dooku finally retreats and concedes he's lost but it was after a long hard fight and he definitely was not being stomped.

Alright so now that I've cleared that up let me also address the faulty comparison. First off Anakin's mental state is one of the key parts of his character and every source that comments on the matter lists that why was the reason why he lost to Kenobi. This an entirely different hinderance to Yoda being hindered by standing on a nexus for example. We have no way to quantify how much these completely different types of hinderances effected the respective combatants and thus your comparison is faulty.

Meanwhile we have some perfectly quantifiable accolades from George Lucas himself which says Anakin is "as strong as The Emperor" and quotes which list him as superior to Yoda along with him absolutely battering Dooku in under 15 seconds once he unleashed his true power.

I don't really feel I need to go more into this as your entire comparison is faulty and there are numerous sources which list Anakin as a top tier up there with Yoda and Sidious.

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#306 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

The Dark Rendezvous fight is very circumstantial. Dooku was amped and Yoda hindered by the nexus, Yoda holds back on Dooku during the initial portion of the fight- the "slowly" part- and once Yoda decides to kill Dooku the fight ends significantly quicker. Furthermore, the text implies Yoda would have annihilated Dooku had he chosen to pursue him.

The comparison with Anakin vs Kenobi on Mustafar is indeed faulty, however, and shouldn't be used to downplay Anakin's capabilities- which we know for a fact ARE Yoda/Sidious level.

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#307 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1196 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Marek was killed by the explosion because he dropped his defences per the TFU Novel, not because he's weaker than Sidious while in oneness which would make no sense given he pressured him at base. As for the DS ending Marek is consistently hindered by the DS, so that's been locked down too. Marek stumbles across Yoda and is in total awe at his power so yeah, he's locked in place as sub Yoda. The statements that refer to Marek being no match have been debunked by @killbilly, check his TFU misconceptions thread for full detail.

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#308 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3352 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123:

The Dark Rendezvous fight is very circumstantial.

Agreed.

Dooku was amped and Yoda hindered by the nexus, Yoda holds back on Dooku during the initial portion of the fight- the "slowly" part- and once Yoda decides to kill Dooku the fight ends significantly quicker.

Yeah sure Dooku was amped and Yoda was hindered but as for Yoda holding back when he faces Dooku I'm not exactly sure where the text implies this. If anything it implies the opposite what with the text noting Yoda was "terrible to behold" in the "dark, drunken Vjun air". This seems to imply Yoda was drawing off darker emotions as well as his eyes lighting up "balls of green fire" as well as Dooku pushing Yoda to fuly give into his anger which is further supported by Yoda saying the DS was "whispering" to him. It seems pretty evident Yoda was pushed towards the edge but in the end he decided to kill Dooku out of love not anger.

Not to mention even when Yoda finally overwhelms Dooku the latter was still blocking his every strike and legitimately contending with him.

Furthermore, the text implies Yoda would have annihilated Dooku had he chosen to pursue him.

Yeah but this was after Dooku had been exhausted due to their fight. Also "annihilated" doesn't imply a stomp but rather suggests Yoda was going to kill Dooku something which is fairly self evident.

The comparison with Anakin vs Kenobi on Mustafar is indeed faulty, however, and shouldn't be used to downplay Anakin's capabilities- which we know for a fact ARE Yoda/Sidious level.

Agreed.

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#309 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3352 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Marek was killed by the explosion because he dropped his defences per the TFU Novel, not because he's weaker than Sidious while in oneness which would make no sense given he pressured him at base. As for the DS ending Marek is consistently hindered by the DS, so that's been locked down too. Marek stumbles across Yoda and is in total awe at his power so yeah, he's locked in place as sub Yoda. The statements that refer to Marek being no match have been debunked by @killbilly, check his TFU misconceptions thread for full detail.

Thanks for responding so I don't have to.

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#310 Edited by KeenCraft (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous:

"Nox being worthy can't mean anything but his parity in power to Hord coming from Khem's mouth (never said superiority)"

Well I see where you're coming from, but it depends. Khem could mean worthy of his station. Tulak's rank as reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, which Nox (at least the arrogant iteration) is constantly declaring himself/herself to be, or at least the future one.

Agreed, but being worthy of Hord's station and rank would coincide with power. Only the strongest and most powerful Sith would reign in Ancient Sith times, and Khem made it clear how much the new Sith Empire's power structure disgusts him. He hates how it functions. To be worthy of station ~ worth in power. Though since you have shown Khem's faulty memory of Tulak Hord, this is no longer really credible for him to judge.

"Memory has played me for a fool -- Veshikk, Tulak Hord, none of them were as I remembered."

-- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Khem Val

The context was that Khem had persuaded his master to accompany him to see his old Dashade rival, Veshikk Urk. Things quickly got hostile, insults were exchanged, and it ended with his former rival being slain. He muses the above quote while in contemplation.

Plus, Khem also admitted he was only with Tulak for a brief amount of time:

"No, but I was only with him a very short time before he put me to sleep."

-- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Khem Val

"If not, I'll just take your word for it."

I appreciate it.

I'll go with your interpretation, albeit it sounds like he's talking about his own hyped up perception of his master and their camaraderie more than power at least to me. It still makes his view a bit wonky. Perhaps he will begin hyping his new master just the same.

As for being with him a short time, that time frame was long enough for the battles of Yn and Chabosh, so he would definitely have a good read of Hord's Force signature and power. But the first quote is what I question as far as his perception of his current master.

Also, thanks for the quotes.

"I realize they had similar statements, but he comes after them"

Yes, but I was pointing out that each new generation had such a statement, which makes the authenticity dubious. It also makes Bane's RoT look unnecessary and foolish given that it was already happening with the Ancient Sith.

I wouldn't see how that's too foolish. The Ancient Sith respected power above all else. Their hierarchy of power could be very much similar to the Rule of Two, except with less stringent guidelines and more margin for the Sith to usurp each other's rule through ulterior means or for Sith to prevent successors from becoming more powerful. Exar Kun just happened to be the last of this powerful line.

Vitiate's Sith Empire was a HUGE degression of Sith power. Everything was more politically motivated, many Sith were pathetic in this era and Vitiate was keeping anyone from coming close to his power. He used his own Empire as a pawn in his game and kept power to himself.

Kaan's Empire is naturally a cheaper rehash of the same Empire's with even more watered down Sith.

Bane just took the Sith back to it's roots. Similar to the loose Exar Kun bloodline. He tried to perfect the old system by taking all the good bits of the Sith belief and pooling the power into two individuals with no other goals aside from gaining more power together as a competition, thus ensuring every Sith would become more powerful or knowledgeable or skilled than the last, even if only marginally.

In conclusion, Darth Sidious was born. If The Rule of Two was not destroyed around the Rise of the Empire, Maul could have become even more powerful than Sidious, taking his own apprentice and continuing traditions.

3700 BBBY, Sith were getting watered down. By 1000 BBY they were pathetic. Bane returned the standard to 4000 BBY with additional refinement.

Not to mention, Bane himself has such an accolade, so if we take all of these at face-value without examining various factors, Bane is above Vitiate who is above Revan who is above Malak who is waaaaay above Kun who is above Nadd who is above Sadow who is above Ragnos who is above Ajunta who is above Muur who is above Krayt. Which means Krayt is basically fodder. Yet he holds parity with GM Luke, iirc. Even if we take out Bane scaling, Krayt would still be fodder.

I've seen the Bane quote. I need someone to explain why this doesn't apply ONLY to Disney Canon Darth Bane. The new Fact Files are printed post Disney Canon split and reference things like Star Wars Rebels. Why is this Bane accolade being treated as Legends on Comicvine and KMC??

Unless I'm missing something, Darth Bane has never been described as "gain[ing] more knowledge and mastery over Sith techniques and power than anyone else who came before him" in ANY Pre 2014 Legends split Fact File or other accolade besides the new Disney re-release. It doesn't match up with anything in the old Official Star Wars Fact File 22 (or others) from 2002-2005 that I've seen. And I have Fact File 1, 22, 83, and 134, which are the only old Fact Files from 2002-2005 regarding Darth Bane at least according to Wookiepedia. All these Bane references only refer to him as "powerful" or "imposing", or some other basic descriptor used for all Sith.

Without that Accolade, everything else seems to fit. Krayt basically is nearly fodder to someone like Exar Kun before he removes his Vong crap shells. As much as I respect ILS, I will never respect where anyone here rates Krayt, until Reborn. He was accompanied by Luke in the Abeloth fight and had the convenience of offsetting the drain by draining Luke.

They did not have parity. He drained Luke for god knows how long since time is garbage in Beyond Shadows. Luke merged his entire essence with Abeloth's to hold her in place; before that, merely merging a portion of his essence had caused a rupture in both of them that gushed essence like crazy. People ignore Luke merging his essence because it is no blatantly stated, but that would cause catastrophic damage leagues beyond what Krayt endured all the while being drained of his power while Krayt is merely nullifying the great majority of his damage.

"Abeloth whipped her chin free of Luke's hand, ripping the energy knot where they had joined and sending a sparkling line of both of their Force essences splattering across the surface of the lake."

And later:

"Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control."

And given we don't know how long the drain occured, why is this taken as Krayt ~ Luke?

I'll just go with what I saw. Karness Muur bullied Krayt and his buddies. Karness Muur <<< Exar Kun. And to the people that were rating Krayt close to Darth Sidious, I laugh.

I generally place all the mega-titans of the Sith in the same tier. Krayt, Plagueis, Bane, Malak, Ragnos, Sadow, Tenebrous, Kun, Revan, Tulak, Nihilus, Ajunta, etc. With Vitiate and Sidious at the top. This seems to me, to be the most all-around consistent scaling given their accolades and various accomplishments.

For the most part I agree. I have the all on a similar tier, but I have Jedi Revan and Darth Malak about even with Plagueis. Reason is mostly preference because I love Revan. I have the Ancient names all pretty close with Kun being the pinnacle. Kun somewhat lower than Plagueis and Krayt lower than Exar Kun. I put Nihilus below Kun because of Traya's statements about Nihilus and the Ancient Sith.

Tenebrous is a Krayt or Kun leveler imo. Of course, with Vitiate and then RotS Darth Sidious at the very top. RotJ Sidious above RotS and DE then being the tip of the spear to outclass everyone.

I don't really see anyone foddering the others unless you compare a pre prime version. Or maybe lowest to highest like Sidious. I'm done believing most of these people could fodder the others. It sounds ridiculous.

When I say "above", it can be marginal.

"Late Sidious > RotS Sids/Yoda >~ Valk >= Vitiate > Revan >= Malak >> Exar Kun >~ Vader ~ some greater ancients >= Nihilus/Ancients/Apprentices/TOR people"

A respectable list.

None too far apart in the gaps. > doesn't mean outclassing to me. Darth Zannah is >= Darth Bane, Maul is >> Qui Gon (at least as a duelist) for reference.

Did not the idea of the Star Map come from Ajunta Pall's spirit, a weakened iteration that was mentally insane? My recollection of that game is a bit fuzzy. Regardless, I thought their power coming from the Star Maps was only rumoured. Controlling the Star Forge is a feat of willpower, not Force mastery in my opinion. It's inconsistent to place Malak so vastly high above such supremely powerful beings. Revan defeated a weakened Ajunta, although it's a great feat nonetheless.

All-in-all, I suppose it would be best for us to agree to disagree.

Yes. Pall was on his nexus, however. Every ghost is pretty much weakened upon death, but Korriban helps a bit to counteract that weakened state. He was not mentally insane, just old and confused. The primary source for one's power and the entire reason his original Sith destroyed themsselves would fall under long term memory. That event is nigh impossible to confuse. And it was only 3000 years, which is roughly a similar time frame between Karness Muur's return, Exar Kun's return, Krayt meeting Nihilus, Bane, Andeddu, and all these other ancient ghosts meeting someone.

It isn't rumored since within the context of the game, it is yet another sneak reference to the player not knowing he was once Darth Revan. Ajunta Pall's ghost senses who he is and that he must find it, to stop Malak, questions if he has found it, which he has, questions if he will find it, which he does. It's written to tie into the Revan revelation if the player does Korriban before learning this. If Ajunta Pall's ghost was just blathering about something that didn't have to do with the game at all, it wouldn't fit the narrative at all. I have Kotor on my phone and will screenshot it when I get to these areas for you.

And I agree on the Star Forge feat being Willpower, not Mastery but that doesn't really change my outlook. I don't take mastery as important as sheer power. I don't see anything inconsistent about it at all. Within the context of KOTOR, he doesn't really do anything to judge, but that doesn't really say much when you view it from the lens of something so specific. Neither does Darth Vader in the movies or Vitiate purely in the base non expansion SWTOR. Other sources build upon everyone's power and that's scales are created.

Pretending DE didn't happen, so what if Sidious was the most powerful Sith in history if there were no other Sith in history? So what if he oneshotted the three Jedi if Kit Fisto couldn't contend with Grievous/Ventress/AotC Obi-Wan etc. So what if Vitiate could beat Revan if Revan was never established beforehand?

He appeared for about two scenes and battled only Revan. Nothing is inconsistent. Just shows Revan's power and growth.

.................................

Anyways, it appears the only quote that does contradict anything in the accolades portion would be the Fact File of Darth Bane, but I need someone to clarify why this would not be Disney Canon only.

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#311 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3352 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12:

Sorry for not responding. Completely forgot about this thread until it was brought back to my attention.

That blog nothing proves, lmao. Why people in CV still ignorantly use other people's blog to justify their arguments? Haven't we passed that when Mace Windu confirmed as a victor against Sidious... :))

There isn't a blog that goes into detail on why Sidious didn't lose against Sidious. Not to mention that Mace didn't actually win he only defeated Sidious in sabers but itshould be apparently obvious Sidious was in no real danger of dying.

Plus you haven't actually debunkked the blog just said it's not entirely concrete which while that is true it doesn't qualify as an actual argument.

Can we move on now?

No. I like how you're using a quote which proves literally nothing. Kenobi can still have been amped and pushed to his mental and physical limits. This is reaching at its finest.

Kenobi is even more emotional than Mace Windu and Yoda, to think that he wouldn't be hindered against his former apprentice while they were is kind of ridiculous.

Yeah I never said Kenobi didn't hold back I just pointed out that he was amped in the duel. Not to mention this doesn't stop Kenobi from putting up the tightest defence possible. Meanwhile Anakin was suffering from real emotional hinderances which effected his ability to use the Force.

Also Yoda didn't hold back against Dooku lol. The novel for AOTC very clearly establishes that had Dooku not blocked Yoda's strikes they would have gone straight threw and if you actually watched the movie you can blatantly see Yoda took the offence against Dooku in the saber duel.

Gillard himself says it's not only about the style, it's also mental. Meaning that mentality is comparable to how good you're at one style. If Anakin isn't mentally a tier 9, then he is a pseudo tier 9, and essentially a tier 8.

Wut? Gillard says Anakin hasn't learned the mental side of it which is why he lost to Kenobi on Mustafar as his emotions were all over the place. But when Anakin is emotionally focused (like in the battle on this thread as it's during Knightfall when Anakin was mentally intact and detiermined) he most certainy is. Gillard is referring to the mental shackles Anakin has on himself at the start of ROTS and Anakin during his duel with Obii Wan. This has nothing to do with KF Vader.

Even Vader never reached Sidious's and Yoda's level, and we've many sources on how Vader actually surpassed Anakin in the Force.

All of these are contradicted by George Lucas in The ESB Commentary though and all the sources were C-Canon and thus overruled by a G-Canon statement.

You just made that shit up, Yoda never said Obi-Wan had any special advantage against Anakin, he just sends him to Anakin.

Yeah sure he doesn't outright say it but it's entirely plausible that he considered this. He doesn't bother to elaborate on why Obi Wan would fair better against Anakin he just says Obi Wan isn't powerful enough to take on Sidious which is true enough.

He just said Obi-Wan isn't powerful enough to take on ''this Lord Sidious'' , and he sends him to deal with a weaker Sith. That's why.

I already layed out some of my case above but I'll further elaborate. He actually has no idea whether Obi Wan can take on Anakin just that Obi Wan definitely can't take Sidious. They had no real way to definitively determine Anakin's power level as all they had were some security tapes from Temple which showed Anakin slaughtering lots of Jedi sure but I can almost guarantee there was nothing Anakin did that remotely compares to Sidious taking on Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, Kit Fisto and Mace Windu at once with him killing the first 3 within seconds.

Not to mention these are fallible character opinions we're talking about compared to the numerous OOU sources which have Anakin above Yoda and an equal to Sidious.

Yoda had a plenty of ideas how powerful Anakin was, he has seen the Jedi security records just as Obi-Wan has.

Addressed above. I doubt there was anything as impressive as Sidious's strike team feat.

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#312 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3352 posts) - - Show Bio

@keencraft:

I don't see it as minimal. I'm a proponent of RotJ(S) power growth being larger than DE(S)'s power growth, and I've said that before, in fact.

Fair enough although I'm not sure I see it given he was matched by Galen in a Force Lock with the latter making him "desparate" and causing him to "howl with pain".

Sidious drained a planet. And the same idea applies to Vitiate. I don't see any reason to believe Valkorion could ever come close to stomping Vitiate.

I do. His commentary and motivations throughout KOTFE and KOTET support this as well as him being able to ragdoll 3 people who honeslty have feats comparable to his previous self.

These characters don't have many fights in the first place-specifically Vitiate- so people push the furthest upper limits because of their "final boss" motif. But when they do, or a connection to lesser characters can be drawn, it hardly plays out as some utter stomp. If he was truly so much more powerful, Outlander would be mind warped in a second after all this >>>>>> Dread master stuff he gets.

Here you're baselessly assuming that TP is the same as possession which is the difference between Vitiate vs the Dread Masters and Vitiate vs The Outlander. It is nearly impossible for the contending consciousness to kick out the residing consciousness. There are some quotes on this in the DS Sourcebook. It is utterly baseless to assume Vitiate didn't grow vastly more powerful based on ths.

The new Outlander wouldn't still be fighting Gnost Dural with help from Darth Malgus (not suggesting parity but seriously? It should be a cutscene where they oneshot).

Yeah and that makes for really exciting gameplay...

The reason they don't just one shot is to give you a boss to fight but in the end it's totally irrelevant because we have no idea as to how much trouble they had. For all we know as soon as the fight starts they one shotted him.

Wouldn't be talked down by Dark Council members like Darth Malora, wouldn't still be having an extended fight with their apprentice Jaesa Wilsaam, and so on.

1. Malora being arrogant and talking down to you doesn't mean she's even close to you in power. For example Darth Thanaton at the end of Act 2 during the SI storyline was confident when confronting Darth Nox but was basically one shotted.

2. When did The Outlander hhave an extended fight with Jaesa?

If he truly were comparable to Yoda esque characters, people around them would be treating them like the second coming of Revan when they speak.

How people interact with The Outlannder is totally irrelevant to his power level.

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#313 Posted by GeorgeWBush (11550 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul is fodder and dies within seconds

Dooku loses again

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#314 Posted by Deadlyeyes (112 posts) - - Show Bio
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#315 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2385 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Before I get into this, what's the quote for Marek being in awe of Yoda's power?

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#316 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1196 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Don't have it on me, I'll do some digging and get back to you, I'm fairly certain it exists though.

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#317 Edited by KillBilly (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:

@jacensolo77: Before I get into this, what's the quote for Marek being in awe of Yoda's power?

The quote he's talking about is in reference to the Starkiller clone having just been assaulted by visions in the Darkside Cave and being in awe that Yoda is able to live near it without going insane.

"The click of a tiny wooden cane brought him out of his thoughts. His head came up. His searching gaze found the little creature sitting on a rock, calmly watching him.

How he stayed so close to the cave was beyond Starkiller. He could feel the dark side rolling in waves at him. The undertow was powerful. He had only just escaped. To be constantly within range of such an assault, and to remain sane-or what passed for it on this sodden, forgotten world-was utterly inconceivable to him...

The little creature possessed a power out of all proportion to his appearance." - The Force Unleashed II.

Considering this is the mentally unstable clone who had been hearing voices in his head and having random memory flashes prior to entering the cave, I don't feel that it's wholly accurate to attribute Starkiller's awe at Yoda's ability to remain sane solely to Yoda's power in comparison to his own.

Hypothetical: Who is going to be more susceptible to the influence of a corrupting Darkside influence assuming the following two individuals possessed the same level of raw Force power?

1. A nearly millennia old Jedi master who has essentially been taught enlightenment by someone who has become One with the Force to the point that they too become One with the Force upon death.

2. A mentally unstable clone in his teens that has been psychologically abused, who hears voices in his head and has random memory flashes, who has only recently stopped using the Darkside ( thus making him more susceptible to its influence ), who's lover is in the hands of the man who is responsible for pretty much every horrible thing that has ever happened to him in his life.

Personally, I believe the latter individual will be more susceptible to a destablizing Darkside influence then the former which, imo, suggests that the above quote @jacensolo77 is referencing is not wholly in reference to Starkiller and Yoda's relative power in the Force, but rather a combination of Yoda's power in the Force and his ability to resist the Darkside in comparison to the clone.

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#318 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1196 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly: I'd respond but I can't be bothered tbh, thanks for providing the quote in any case, @dawn_of_ages can make of it what he will.

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#319 Posted by KeenCraft (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: tried to answer your two posts and my entire thing response got deleted mid way through. I'll get back to you on these by friday when I'm less vexed at the internet connection or whatever the csrf token is

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#320 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3352 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: tried to answer your two posts and my entire thing response got deleted mid way through. I'll get back to you on these by friday when I'm less vexed at the internet connection or whatever the csrf token is

Major RIP.

Whatever take your time I don't really mind in all honesty. I'm dealing with some rather lengthy posts at the moment as well as writing a CaV post so it comes as a relief I don't have to respond so soon.

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#321 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3352 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous:

I'm going to skip over stuff that I don't agree with Kilius on so don't expect your full post to be addressed.

All that passage showed was that the Force was fighting and not Bane. He wasn't using any of his own skill and didn't even know what he was doing.

Are you honestly this stupid? All Jedi given into the Force to amplify their combat awareness and get in tune with a battle which this passage what with Bane performing a feat he'd never done before. You're trying to separate pure skill into it's own category when it's impossible to gauge as ones skill level varies depending on their connection to the Force something Kilius notes later in his/her post.

Lesser droids. This does not alter the fact that the alleged tier 9 was outright hard-pressed by a MagnaGuard.

First off to say this is anything but an outlier is incredibly disengenuous but I'll play your little game. Anakin is outright stated to be a tier 9 physically and be on par with The Emperor but he hasn't learned the mental side of it yet. He puts up mental barriers around him and almost never displays his full power except for a few key instances eg: Knightfall and the end of his fight with Dooku on The Invisible Hand hence why he struggled with the MagnaGaurd. In fact Gillard himself says Base Jedi Knight Anakin is an 8.

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."

Credit : Nick Gillard, Duelling Jedi

This showing where Anakin wasn't displaying his full power doesn't indicate Anakin isn't Sidious tier just that when he's not displaying his full power he isn't. There is no indication Anakin used anywhere close to the power he displayed against Dooku or furing Knightfall.

Serra is below Drallig who is above Grievous who is below Maul who is nothing against Sidious who is below Yoda.

This is some terrible logic right here. Essentially your argument is as follows:

Serra<Drallig>Grievous<Maul<<<<Sidious<Yoda.

First off Yoda isn't better than Sidious. They're equals or Sidious is better.

Second off Drallig being better than Grievous invalidates your whole chain because how do we exactly know the chain isn't something like this:

Yoda=Sidious>Drallig>Keto>Maul>Grievous.

Drallig and Keto could easily be above Maul.

Unless this is a typo and you meant to say Drallig is below Grievous but as to that I'd have to question where the evidence is. You haven't provided any.

Also Keto has never given KF Vader a fight lmao.

Here's what actually happened:

They have a brief cutscene where there is some dialogue and then the two begin to fight.

--Gamplay Mechanics

Then what we see is essntially KF Vader winning the fight by kicking Keto to the floor and walking forward to finish her. Keto then manages to TK throw an object which takes KF Vader by surprise and hits him (by all means a cheapshot) and then she runs away. KF Vader follows her and then the two get ready to engage each other again.

No Caption Provided

--Gameplay Mechanics

KF Vader effortlessly blocks a series of strikes from Keto without even using both hands and ducks under her strikes towards his head and manages to dodge to get out of his awkward position. He then TK's a pillar which falls onto her.

No Caption Provided

So basically in a shot summary KF Vader beats her with unknown difficulty, gets cheapshotted, engages with her again and effortlessly blocks multiple strikes from her despite only using one hand and escapes from a highly disadvantageous position. How you can argue Keto put up a fight is quite frankly beyond me.

The novel is below the movie and the fact file I showed lines up perfectly with the movie (meanwhile the novel is ripe-full of contradictions) and demonstrates that the win was circumstantial. Kenobi fought Grievous in a hindering environment, knew how Grievous would fight, and then Grievous got enraged and lost his focus.

This argument though. I thought you were all for the G-Canon policy yet here you've actively disregarded the whole thing?

A C-Canon statement whether it is backed up by the movie or not is still C-Canon. Furthermore nothing in the movie indicates this. Nowhere in the movie is a hindering environment displayed and Grievous didn't get enraged and lose focus lol. I'm also really beginning question the council's decision to send Obi Wan given he's inferior to GG according to you. So essentially all we have is some random C-Canon quote saying some stuff which isn't backed up at all meanwhile we also have a novel which was line edited by Lucas himself displaying Kenobi as superior as well as the council commenting on how Kenobi can take Grievous.

Take your pick.

It's obvious that none of this really happened. And regardless, this would place ROTS Kenobi infinitely above ROTS Dooku given that he's easily, absolutely effortlessly handling Dooku in this passage. Heck, Dooku is being laughably stomped by both combatants individually. Even before Anakin becomes mega-enraged. A stark contrast to the movie (and Databank, and Script) Dooku who is holding the obvious edge over both duelists combined.

Wut? Defending against someone doesn't mean you're stomping them lmao. It just shows Kenobi's a really good swordsman and is more or less a match for Dooku. It most certainly doesn't show superiority. Dooku most certainly wasn't being "laughably stomped".

They would have to speculate that he was above Dooku, Grievous, Maul, and Ventress. It's an incredibly impressive accolade.

Yeah sure they would have had to speculate that although they had no idea how much more powerful Sidious was than Dooku for example. The most you've proven is that the Jedi Council think a team of Mace, Saesee, Kolar and Kit can take Dooku. Congratulations.

Previously addressed. Kolar easily stomped Vos while holding back, Kenobi didn't stomp IG-101, and indeed in the original script he was supposed to get beat up by it:

Yeah sure in the original script but the fact is in the movie this doesn't happen and don't really see a sufficient window for this to fit into not to mention Kenobi doesn't seeem to be hard pressed at all in the movie. This point is completely irrelevant.

Also I'm not really sure how we can scale Vos to any of these Magnaguards so using this to out Kolar above Kenobi is silly.

And Anakin in that same script besides what we saw in the movie was flat-out stated to struggle in holding off 102:

To be fair to Anakin he was trying to rescue Palpatine and was backing off to get to him so he couldn't press an offensive.

I know. But he says that Anakin is as good as the best Djem So stylist he's seen.

First off I don't remember when Dooku said this so can you provide the quote? Second off this would refer purely to Anakin's use of Djem So not his overall fighting prowess and second off this would refer to base ROTS Anakin (who is an 8) not KF Vader.

Unless he battled another unknown one during the CW, this would be from his time as a Jedi, 13 years ago. To my knowledge, Tiin and Koon are the most prominent Djem So users, so he'd be referring to them.

It's entirely possible he could have encountered someone else. It's conjecture to say the quote (that supposedly exists) is referring to Saesee and Koon and that Dooku couldn't have encountered someone else. Who the quote is referring to is completely unknown.

Those accolades are always meaningful. And you don't need feats, accolades are the result of them. If someone has one, we know they've done something that earns them such a title, as a general rule. Moreover, I know being among the best in the Order doesn't place one on par with a fighter of Kenobi's level. Being among the greatest fighters in galactic history is where we start talking.

Yes all of these quotes are significant but not when we start up with match ups like Kenobi vs Kolar where they have similair accolades. The accolades usefulness in a debate is completely nullified when an opposing character has a simlair accolade.

Afraid not. All Dark Siders draw from their emotions. That's the source of their power. Negative emotions (I.E., fear, anger, hatred, etc) equal DS energy. That's not an amp. But Dark Sider's can become abnormally amped when these negative emotions are heightened beyond the norm. We see this practically everywhere in SW. Ventress vs Grievous, Malgus vs Darach, Savage vs Dooku and Ventress, Ventress vs Obi-Wan and Anakin, Ventress vs Luminara, etc. The mythos is replete with LS getting rage-amped too. Obi-Wan vs Maul, Luke vs Vader, Anakin vs Ventress(many times), Anakin vs Bariss, Novelization-version Mace vs Sidious, etc. This is all rather basic stuff.

Yes but that's demonstratably not what happened here. If you were able to read you'd see all Anakin was doing was releasing the mental barriers around him not amplifying his abilities through a special kind of Force Rage or whatever.

Anakin was becoming more and more amped while Dooku was becoming more and more exhausted.

True enough but Dooku literally recovers all that strength he lost before Anakin kicks him off the balcony as is noted by the text. Then Anakin proceeds to beat the ever living crap out of him.

Then in a final mega-rage-amped burst, Anakin still fails to accomplish really anything, to the point where it's stated many times that their final duel was actually intense(a stark contrast to the novel's "I decide to win, I win and your abilities are a joke), and Dooku literally thought he still had the upper hand.

This is just plain grasping for straws to try to disregard on paper, factual, clear as day statements. The duel being intense doesn't mean Anakin wasn't stomping Dooku lol. The word intense means "(of an action) highly concentrated" and the word concentrated of course means "wholly directed to one thing" and Anakin most certainly was wholly directed to one thing what with him wanting to kill Dooku and all. The duel being intense doesn't mean it was difficult for Anakin just that he was totally dedicated to pummeling Dooku.

To bring up an example that invalidates this argument I'll use the Maul and Savage vs Darth Sidious duel. The duel was described as intense despite the fact that it was incredibly one sided as anyone watching the duel can blatantly see.

As for Dooku thinking he had the upper hand when was this? I'm gonna need a quote otherwise your point doesn't stand. Also if there is a quote it's more than likely referring to the bladelock in which Dooku did indeed have the upper hand.

In a fluke shot, he manages to penetrate Dooku's guard, and then abuses his brute strength in order to physically hold Dooku's hand in place while he cuts them off.

In order to prove it was a fluke you'd need to actually substantiate what's so inconsistent about Anakin absolutely battering Dooku's defences because he's just far more powerful.

Not in the slightest. Anakin will not always have a top-tier swordsman to aid him.

Which during the final part of the duel he didn't.

Nor will he always face an opponent stricken with old age and an inferior stamina.

Dooku brought himself back to full strength.

Nor will he always be as emotionally invested in fights with other opponents as he was with Dooku(I.E., his former master and quasi-brother being smacked away, Palpatine being present, his abnormal hatred for Dooku, etc).

He will have these circumstances during Knightfall though. During this phase he was incredibly determined to save Padme's life and just went around killing everyone. His determination in that fight and here will be the same.

Good grief these arguments are horrible.

Nor will he always sport a form advantage. Need I go on?

A form advantage that had nothing to do with his victory. The reason he absolutely pummeled Dooku was because he was simply more powerful and his power in the Force dwarfed Dooku's. The novel makes that fairly clear.

If we're really going to use this kind of logic, I could easily say that if Anakin was indeed more powerful than Dooku, and could ragdoll him, he would have done it.

False equivelancy. You're comparing something Anakin overwhelming Dooku and Jinn being unable to against Maul to Anakin not bothering to ragdoll Dooku because he was already stomping anyway.

Not to mention you don't necessarily have to be able to ragdoll someone to be vastly more powerful than them.

Or if he'd really been skilled enough to disarm Dooku via lightsaber combat, he would have.

Wut? Anakin beating down Dooku's guard doesn't count as skill? You know there is skill involved in utilsing an advantage (like superior strength) effectively in combat right? Not to mention pure skill is totally irrelevant as we're discussing a match up where Anakin has superior strength to the 2 opponents he's fighting in this battle.

Or if Obi-Wan was really so high above Dooku, he would have defeated him. Etc.

Obi Wan isn't though. Kilius has never said that in this entire debate...

I've already acknowledged, even before anyone even brought it up, that there was a feat in this accomplishment for Anakin: namely, that he managed to penetrate his guard in the first place. But this was done under heavily favourable circumstances for Anakin, and given that Dooku was holding the clear edge prior to this, it doesn't really mean anything.

Dooku was holding a clear edge against an Anakin who had yet to release his full strength which doesn't correlate to this version of Anakin. And Dooku unbalancing Anakin with Dun Moch doesn't count either.

Furthermore even base Anakin was pushing Dooku back when the latter had the leverage of the stairs with the latter only being able to land a single kick on him which per the novel took the remainder of Dooku's reserves to do.

Skill with a lightsaber is not brute strength.

Well yeah duh. If all Anakin had was brute strength Dooku would have thrashed him. Evidently you can't read because the text notes that Anakin was just better at everything and that Dooku was his inferior. That's all there is to it.

Not Force Power. Not manipulation of the environment. Not cunning. It's your skill with the combative use of a lightsaber. Martial strikes (like with Qui Gon, with Maul, with Sidious, with Dooku) require skill and precision. Holding someone in place with superior strength is just that -- superior strength.

The problem with this is the text notes Anakin was just better than Dooku. And I don't get why you're saying "well if we just removed all of Anakin's advantages like superior physicals and superior Force Power Dooku would win" because he has all of these advantages in this fight and almost every fight in SW is based on who has superior Force Power, Physicals ect.

Not at all. Dooku has Anakin beat in practically every category. He's superior in:

- Lightsaber skill

You haven't proven this. All you've done is say "Anakin used brute strength in conjunction with skill to overpower Dooku so therefore he isn't more skilled".

- Mental fortitude

Can maybe see this being the case. However you haven't substantiated it with anything.

- Experience

See above.

- Physical speed

Yet to be proven that he's faster.

- Force Power

I'd say Dooku's Force Power's being a "joke" in comparison to Anakin's says otherwise.

- Cunning

See my response to mental fortitude.

- Martial skill

The novel disagrees.

- Physical strength (Anakin was only superior in this area when he became mega-enraged. Before that, Dooku was overwhelming/matching him + Obi-Wan several times)

Mega enraged? Anakin is in the exact same state in this battle so it's irrelevant and also he wasn't mega enraged. All he did was tap into his full power which he does again during Knightfall.

Anakin only has him beat in:

- Stamina

- Raw Power

- Durability

Nah Anakin has him beat in just about every category besides Mental Fortitude and Experience.

Savage's even contending with master duelists like Plo Koon or Adi Gallia is PIS.

Yay! More unsubstantiated claims.

It may help you win, but being physically stronger than somehow does not mean you're a more skilled fighter.

True but the problem is arguing who is more skilled is irrelevant because Anakin has the strength advantage in this battle and can use it to pummel both of them.

They could easily be referring to his power, or their final bladelock. Which does not alter the fact that before that, Obi-Wan was being visibly clowned by Dooku's immensely superior skill.

Congratulations Teneb. You can make basic observations.

...Only happens when he becomes amped. Before that, as I've shown in other posts, Dooku is matching and overwhelming Obi-Wan and Anakin's combined physical strength.

Anakin is in the exact same state in this fight. Can you please stop throwing around the term "amped" like he actualy was. Releasing ones full power does not qualify as an amp lmao.

Also even base Anakin was capable of pushing Dooku back solo when the latter had the leverage of the stairs.

Which Anakin has not mastered as much as Dooku has his, and thus has less real, consistent (actual) power to draw from when compared to Dooku. In terms of raw power, Anakin can tap into portions of his full potential when sufficiently amped(like other Force users, and like he's done before), and sometimes surpass Dooku, but such instances require specific circumstances, and are not reflective of his normal realm of capacity. In terms of current power, Anakin is still inferior.

Except this is his normal capacity. He hides his power beneath mental blocks and these mental blocks are removed on the Invisible Hand and during Knightfall (the version used for this battle). It's not that hard to understand.

Really? Strange, the only sources I can recall showing Anakin as having the advantage, are the novels.

I'd say the film displaying Anakin battering Dooku in under 15 seconds in the film shows Anakin having the advantage wouldn't you?

The movies, the databank(old and new), and the script all tell a different story.

Provide a source which shows Dooku not being crushed in under 15 seconds by Anakin with his full power released. I'll wait.

And regardless, it's not about how many sources you've got supporting you.

I agree wholeheartedly.

It's about the authenticity of those sources.

And guess which source has Anakin stomping Dooku in 15 seconds. Oh yeah that's right it was the films which you put on a pedestal. I'm sorry Teneb but you're basically destroying yourself here.

And as I've explained ad nauseam, all these sources take a back seat to the films.

Anakin stomps Dooku in the source you're using as your argument against him.

Which of course has Dooku blocking Anakin's attack from behind without even looking at him, Dooku dragging Obi-Wan's blade to meet Anakin's attack, Dooku piercing their collective guard and using this opening to ragdoll Obi-Wan, Dooku dodging Anakin's attack, Anakin overextending long enough for Dooku to ascend the stairs and turn around, Dooku while exhausted and with Anakin amped, piercing their collective guard, simultaneously ragdolling Obi-Wan and kicking Anakin away with barely a glance over his shoulder, etc.

All of which happened before Anakin released his true power. Not to mention you ignored the part where Anakin presses Dooku solo despite the latter having the leverage of the stairs.

What did amped-Anakin do again?

Destroy Dooku.

Land a Luminara-vs-Ventress-style PIS kick that didn't phase an exhausted Dooku in the slightest, and break his guard a final time in a fluke shot. All this with a slew of advantages on Anakin's side.

Fluke shot? You've got to be joking. I could easily claim that a bunch of fights in SW were flukes but that does not make it so. Anakin thrashed Dooku because he was more powerful as per the novel. Get over it.

The established context of his speech is Anakin's potential. Being as powerful is in included in this, as long as it's ahead of him. TPM Anakin has the potential to be twice as good as the Emperor, but he's also got the potential to become as powerful as AOTC Anakin. Every stage of growth is part of his potential. So this does not delete the idea of this all being a reference to potential, his raw, unreached power that he can't consistently grasp.

I'm sorry wut? There are two clear as day statements that separate Anakin's power and potential with one saying he was as strong as Sidious and he had the potential to grow twice as strong and the other saying when he became Vader he lost the power that was on par with Sidious and the potential to surpass him.

And besides, the idea of them being equals is contradicted by the G-canon movie, which actually within the G-canon levels, cancels out the scripts and even GL's statements.

The movie potrays no such thing. It's elaborated on that Anakin has firm mental barriers in place hence his showings against the MagnaGuards and that he was hindered in his fight with Obi Wan and couldn't utilise the power he had properly.

But again, Lucas is clearly aligned with what I'm arguing here, and as I've shown, my view is the one that holds most consistent with his other statements. (I.E., no one in ROTS, not even Anakin, can even compete with Sidious bar Mace and Yoda)

Lucas literally notes a sentence later Anakin can.

Also I find it funny how you're using this to prove Anakin is trash tier despite Sidious knowing him inside and out. I have no doubt Anakin would get rekt by Sidious due to the latter being able to break Anakin mentally with words and cunning.

If you are only arguing that Anakin is on their level with raw power, then we've got no disagreement here.

Good.

Anakin's raw power is his potential, which is unprecedented. To draw upon this requires circumstances. But in terms of real, actual power that they are able to draw from at will, then he is well-below them. Same in skill.

You mean like in Knightfall for example? When he was drawing off the Dark Side and was determined to save Padme's life?

Even then, I haven't yet seen Anakin pull off anything that's Sidious or Yoda level when he's tapped into his raw power. Manipulating dreadnoughts, collapsing cathedrals, etc, these are impressive but Yoda and Sidious have all done far better. His amp with Dooku didn't even do much, the intensity of the duel was still proficient, and Dooku thought he still had the upper hand.

Addressed.

Also Anakin unleashing his full power held back a Theta Storm which Obi Wan thought that Yoda might not be able to achieve.

There goes that out the window.

Lucas said no one can compete with Sidious except Mace and Yoda, so that cancels the idea of Anakin matching him out.

Explained previously.

Moreover, I really, really, really, really, really, really, really doubt that the guy who struggled against IG-102 and Serra Keto, was given the fight of his life by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Cin Drallig, and who was below Dooku even with help, is gonna match Sidious himself.

First was base Jedi Anakin.

Second isn't an anti feat as Keto was getting rekt plus she has no anti feats so we could just assume she's that skilled. This is a feat for her not an anti feat for KF Vader and as I've already pointed out she never really gave him a fight.

Anakin was majorly hindered in the third.

Drallig never gave Anakin a fight. They clash for about 2 seconds on screen and the videogame version of his death is non canon per Chee.

As for Dooku once again it was base Jedi Knight Anakin. When he had the power which he will undoubtedly possess here Anakin stomped Dooku.

He said "if Anakin hadn't gotten all beat up." Post-Mustafar organic Vader. FP Vader. If he meant actual Anakin, he would have said "Anakin can" or "Anakin would have." But he put that other part in there. Furthermore, it makes little sense for him to say no one in ROTS can even compete with Sidious bar Mace and Yoda, but then go on to say well this ROTS guy can go a step further and beat him.

This isn't a rebuttal. It's just you saying well this "makes little sense" and therefore you saying it's true does not make it so. There isn't a way to distinguish whether Lucas is talking about Anakin current power or his future potential. He said that Anakin couldn't because he was beat on Mustafar and Anakin factually lost both power and potential after the events on Mustafar so there is no way to know what Lucas meant.

He says he's like Maul and Dooku in the sense that all three are forever below Sidious. He's stuck, resigned to their fate. He's been reduced to 80% of Sidious' potential, when before he could have become twice as powerful.

He's literally trying to define Vader's current power when bringing up these 2 lmao. He already established Vader was below Sidious so bringing up Maul and Dooku is kinda pointless as it should be self explanatory that he's like them as he's below Sidious. He's very clearly using these two to establish where Vader's power is as of the OT and it lines up with Vader's other performances.

Depends on the art. Plus, how the heck is Anakin peaking as a duelist at 23. Obi-Wan has less potential than even suit-Vader, but he peaked far later, and even then just because he was out-of-practice. It is illogical.

The 20s is an absurdly young age, and for such a practice/experience-based art like dueling skill, it's nigh-impossible for Anakin, with many, many years of continuous study, to not advance in his skill.

It's entirely possible Anakin is incredibly adept and got the hang of Lightsaber combat really early and peaked at 23.

I've already acknowledged all this in the paragraph you responded to. But this doesn't change the fact that he still possesses the same level of skill he had in ROTS. His talent allowed him to attain that immense level of skill -- removing that talent does not omit the current skill level he's at, it only makes growth a lot slower. The only obstacle Vader has, in terms of increasing his lightsaber profiency, is merely readjustment to his suit and the results thereof.

Two decades more than enough time. Anakin isn't mentally impaired.

Yeah thing is though Vader was a completely different fighter fro Anakin. His fighting style changed to ajust to his cybernetics so whatever previous mastery he had is almost completely irrelevant and as I pointed out above it's entirely possible Anakin was extremely adept at Lightsaber combat so he peaked really early which isn't that unreasonable especially when you consider the fact that he was fighting in a galactic war.

Frankly, Vader having to significantly alter his fighting style was complete nonsense, given that his main form as Anakin(Djem So), was 100% tailor-made for his suit. The only thing he would need to change was his mix of Ataru acrobatics, and Niman measured cadence. Djem So's power, strength based attacks and lack of mobility are perfect for suit-Vader.

Yeah the problem is Anakin used Djem So in a completely different way from Vader lol. Vader basically stands still or slowly moves around compared to Anakin who's literally running around and jumping. The style being the same doesn't mean he didn't have to adapt to his massive loss of speed and completely alter his fighting style because of it.

Basic logic dictates this. Look at how differently Anakin and Vader fight.

Anakin has the greatest potential in all of SW by a enormous margin. He advances at an unprecedented rate. An entire decade of practice produced a formidable, top-tier duelist even as early as AOTC. The only reason he was so narrowly below Obi-Wan was because the latter's talent was so unbelievably low, he was almost not selected to be a Jedi Knight. Obi-Wan had to work immensely hard for every ounce of growth, even when he was apprenticed under one of the greatest Jedi duelists in galactic history. Meanwhile Anakin just breezes through everything.

Obi Wan was formidable in his own right and certainly isn't talentless like you're making out. He has numerous accolades and feats which place him amongst the best in the order as a mere Padawan.

But having 15 years on someone is not even remotely comparable to having 60 years. And Dooku was a mega-prodigy himself, the polar opposite of poor Obi-Wan in that regard. So yeah.

See above rebuttal for Obi Wan being talentless. Also how long someone has trained for isn't relevant at all. I Fence and I've managed to beat people who train far more extensively than myself.

It does. Dooku is blasted 83 years old.

Which doesn't matter at all. This only becomes relevant once all of Dooku's reserves have been beaten out of him not at any other moment.

Which means he'll have to possess sufficient amounts of power in order to keep up with younger foes.

Duh. No one's denying Dooku is powerful but this doesn't prove he's more powerful than Obi Wan or Anakin.

Him lasting as long as Obi-Wan did in terms of stamina demonstrates how vastly above Obi-Wan he was in power.

Wut? The extra reserves Dooku would have to use to amp himself would most likely be minimal and hardly constitute him being vastly more powerful.

But this was not enough for him to outlast the increasingly-amped, physical powerhouse 23 year old.

This wasn't a case of lasting though. Dooku when he's returned to full strength literally gets the shit kicked out of him by Anakin.

Even Sidious gets exhausted.

Yes.

This just makes Anakin superior in regard to stamina.

Kilius never said otherwise lol. All Kilius is arguing is that Anakin having superior stamina is incredibly relevant as if Dooku can't keep up with him stamina wise he's going to lose if Anakin is either more or equally as powerful (Anakin's vastly more powerful).

Good enough to beat Dooku. Which he was. But Dooku was more skilled and more powerful. Sith don't care about fairness. Again, as I've said before, this can just be Sidious inflating Vader's abilties, like he's done before. For the sake of consoling Grievous, who is immensely concerned about the loss of his master, Dooku.

"More skilled and more powerful"? For real? The text notes Anakin's Force Powers made Dooku's look like a joke.

Also Sidious wasn't inflating Vader'a abilities. Sidious legitimately believed everything he said which is supported by his actions. We have no reason not to take Sidious's commentary as legit.

The fact that Dooku performed as obviously well as he did when exhausted while Anakin was getting amped, is a bit humiliating for the guy allegedly on par with Yoda.

Except he didn't perform well. The novel notes Anakin was battering Dooku and the movie does not contradict this.

I agree being forced back typically doesn't look good, but Dooku being forced back is not indicative of anything given that he's a Makashi stylist. His form is passive-aggressive. It can barely even generate momentum. While Ataru, Juyo and Djem So focus on smashing through your guard, Makashi will meticulously dismantle it. Being driven back by a Makashi stylist is actually indicative of a lot, given the aforementioned factors.

Except in AOTC he fought back and forth against Yoda (someone more powerful than him) rather than retreating showing Makashi stylists don't normally retreat as their default and it's further supported that Anakin was indeed pressuring Dooku by the fact that in this instance Dooku also had the leverage of the stairs as an advantage but chose to retreat anyway. Plus the novel shows us that Dooku was indeed being pushed back by Anakin's onslaught.

And since you like to use writer-intent, Dooku was supposed to force back Obi-Wan + Anakin in the original script.

Yeah but this never happened in the movie whereas the above did. This is non canon and should be disregarded.

Also, in case you counter with the aggressiveness of Ventress... she uses an unorthodox hybrid iteration of Makashi that better suits her more aggressive tendencies. She blends this with the offensive form Jar'Kai. Dooku is a classical practitioner.

Already cited the AOTC fight to prove your assertions are false.

Yes. He wasn't even disarmed legitimately(like with Dooku! See any similarities?).

Not really. Anakin batters down Dooku's defence and grabs his hands while he cuts them off. A legitimate win and definitely not a cheap shot.

He trips and then Luke just smashes his hand to the side with brute strength, and then cuts it off.

Yeah because a rage amped Luke was far more powerful. Also the only reason he "tripped" is because he couldn't stay on his feet due to Luke hammering his defence.

Funny how the Skywalker boys love using rage amps and brute strength to overwhelm superior opponents.

>Superior opponents.

>Rage amps (that's not even what it was) that are applicable to superior versions of the characters (KF Vader).

Dooku was being "driven back" because of his form, and still holding the advantage. He held the edge, not his own.

The novel literally notes Anakin's beating Dooku's reserves out of him. As soon as Anakin begins to amp himself he overwhelms Dooku and then the latter manages to land one kick on him which gives him time to recover his Force Reserves and then gets beaten down again. I don't understand how he had the advantage at all. The only person he had the advantage over was Obi Wan.

I already addressed this when I was linked earlier to yet another garbage blog post. I'll just copy and paste that to address this:

Oh lovely. Another failed debunk from Lord Teneb.

It would indeed hinder his fighting ability, as Obi-Wan is distressed to be fighting Anakin at all, and does not wish to do so.

I don't think Obi Wan would be particularly upset about having to put up a defence against the guy who was trying to cut his head off. All he was doing was not bothering to press the offensive.

Not only does it hinder his ability to fight period, but Soresu is not all about defense.

It doesn't hinder his ability to fight. The reason he doesn't want to fight Anakin is because he doesn't want to kill him which isn't somethiing he'll have to do if he's soley defending himself.

Sure, that is its main technique, but the purpose of the technique is to simply defend until an opening appears in your opponent's guard, or until they become exhausted, etc, as opposed to attempting to subvert and pierce through your opponent's guard(Makashi), batter and smash through it(Djem So and Juyo), or plainly overwhelm it(Ataru). Instead of fighting all-out, Kenobi will be holding back, spurred on by his love of Anakin.

You're assuming that such an opening existed for Kenobi to capitalise on.

In essence, Kenobi's emotional attachment and reluctantance to fight is going to hinder his ability to fight overall, and his holding back means he will not be as prone to capitalizing on openings Anakin gives. He will not be performing at maximum capacity.

What a load of absolute nonsense.

I will respond to your post on why KF Vader loses soon enough but for now I'll just leave it at this. I have to say though I've never seen such bad arguments and such a complete disregard for canon as well as cancerous lowballing. This monstrosity of an argument really is the full package Teneb which is why I felt the need to address it. Unfortunately though you probably won't respond to this cause you know you'll get rekt again. The amount of mental gymastics performed in your rebuttal to @kilius really is astounding.

Oh well it is what it is. KF Vader still wins folks.

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#322 Edited by Kilius (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

I know. But he says that Anakin is as good as the best Djem So stylist he's seen.

First off I don't remember when Dooku said this so can you provide the quote? Second off this would refer purely to Anakin's use of Djem So not his overall fighting prowess and second off this would refer to base ROTS Anakin (who is an 8) not KF Vader.

Unless he battled another unknown one during the CW, this would be from his time as a Jedi, 13 years ago. To my knowledge, Tiin and Koon are the most prominent Djem So users, so he'd be referring to them.

It's entirely possible he could have encountered someone else. It's conjecture to say the quote (that supposedly exists) is referring to Saesee and Koon and that Dooku couldn't have encountered someone else. Who the quote is referring to is completely unknown.

Here's the quote in question:

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Koon's best feat is stalemating 4 months ABG Ventress, a season 1 Kenobi level feat. I think it's a safe to say Koon isn't Anakin's equal as Djem-So stylist.

Also I did some research and I can't actually find any evidence Tiin used Djem-So. Wookiepedia footnotes the databank profile as it's source but the source in question doesn't make any mention to Djem-So, proving once again it isn't a reliable source of information, without crosschecking it's references. I'll put the article in a spoiler block for any who are curious:

Tiin, Saesee

  • Appeared in:
    I II III IV V VI CW
  • Homeworld:
    Iktotch
  • Species:
    Iktotchi
  • Gender:
    Male
  • Size:
    1.88 meters
  • Weapon:
    Lightsaber
  • Vehicle:
    SoroSuub Cutlass-9, Jedi starfighter
  • Affiliation:
    Jedi Council

From the Movies

The imposing Saesee Tiin was a member of the Jedi Council during the final years of the Republic. He served that noble assemblage during the commotion of the Sith's return surrounding the events of the Battle of Naboo. Tiin voyaged to Naboo to attend the funeral of fallen Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn, and the jubilant celebration that marked the liberation of that outlying world. Ten years after this event, Tiin was still an active member of the Jedi order.

Tiin was one of a group of Jedi Masters gathered together by Mace Windu to arrest Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. Palpatine refused to go quietly; he sprang forth, imbued with the power of the Force, and cut down Saesee Tiin, killing him quickly.

Tiin was a powerfully built humanoid male, with large hands and two down-sweeping horns surrounding his grim face.

From the Expanded Universe

Jedi Master Saesee Tiin, a telepathic Iktotchi from the Iktotch moon, received training from Master Omo Bouri, a famed Wol Cabasshite. Bouri instilled a strong sense of conviction in Tiin, honing the Iktotchi's skill and dedication to the order to the point that some would describe Tiin as fanatical. After the death of Bouri, Tiin's devotion only increased. The stern, contemplative Jedi often kept to himself, and Tiin was never known to take a Padawan. Tiin's loner tendencies caused some to privately question his value to the Council since his contributions were minimal.

Despite such hushed criticism, Tiin was a formidable warrior and an incredible pilot. His Iktotchi heritage granted him strong telepathic abilities. Helming his personal SoroSuub Cutlass-9 craft, the Sharp Spiral, through the relentless winds of Iktotch taught him unparalleled control. Tiin was so in tune with his vessel, that he had no need of a nav computer; he relied on the Force to instinctively astrogate his way through lightspeed.

Tiin had a keen eye for flight technology. He took considerable interest in Darth Maul's Sith Infiltrator when it was discovered on Naboo. Though the rest of the Jedi Council had reservations regarding Anakin Skywalker customizing his Jedi starfighter, Tiin encouraged the young man. Tiin was appreciative of Anakin's custom-engineered solutions to the Delta-7's limitations, and petitioned that Anakin's modifications be incorporated into future designs of the craft. When the next generation of Jedi starfighter appeared, the Actis-2 interceptors, Tiin was one of the first Jedi to receive an upgraded model.

Tiin's piloting skills were put to great use during the Stark Hyperspace Wars, and more importantly, the Clone Wars. One close call in that epic conflict led to a low-altitude bail out, which Tiin escaped with minor injuries, including a broken horn that would eventually grow back.

The violence of the Clone Wars soon spilled onto the surface of Iktotch, and Tiin came racing home, accompanied by Mace Windu, to lead the defense of his world. Though the two had differing opinions on tactics -- strong-headed Saesee preferred a more blunt approach, while Mace's actions were far more finessed -- the two teamed together well enough to defeat the droid army there, including a prototype ultra battle droid.

After a rash of attacks against the Jedi from members of the Crimson Nova chapter of the Bounty Hunters' Guild, Saesee Tiin and Mace Windu infiltrated their headquarters to put a stop to this activity. Along with Windu and Tiin were Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar who made it clear to the hunters aboard the Rig space station to cease any further hunts against Jedi targets.

During the war, Tiin was appointed official liaison between the Jedi Council and Freedom's Sons, a growing mercenary group that helped the Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars. He personally championed some of the more unorthodox tactics and combatants, including vouching for Quinlan Vos and Anakin Skywalker.

Tiin served alongside Skywalker during a crisis in the Rendili system. The home fleet protecting Rendili, consisting of state-of-the-art Dreadnaught heavy cruisers, was threatening to defect to the Separatists. Tiin was dispatched to prevent the fleet from adding its warships to the Confederacy, even if it meant destroying them. The stern Tiin never wavered in his resolve, even though the defectors had captured hostages and threatened to kill them. Through the efforts of Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Quinlan Vos, the hostages were rescued and the Rendili fleet was secured for the Republic.

When the Separatists boldly attacked Coruscant in order to kidnap the Supreme Chancellor, Tiin piloted a starfighter to harrow the Confederacy droid starfighters swarming in the orbital space above the capital. Though Tiin operated independently in space, he was assigned remote authority over the Venator-class Star Destroyer Impavid. During the attack, the Impavid was scuttled, sustaining enormous damage from a collision with a Separatist cruiser. Tiin landed upon the crumbling vessel, leading a crack team of stranded clone trooper marines on a bold mission to board and capture a new vessel.

Donning a customized armored spacesuit, Tiin leaped into the debris-strewn vacuum between capital ships, with his marines following close behind. They landed aboard the Confederacy cruiser Prosperous and Tiin cut into the craft's hull with his lightsaber, leading an assault that charged the bridge. The extensive automation aboard the Separatist craft made it easy for this minimal crew of infiltrators to take command of the vessel.

Behind the Scenes

The Episode I Art Department often relied on Concept Artist Terryl Whitlatch's expertise in zoology and anatomy to provide realistic detail to character designs. These drawings depict an unused Jedi Master with sweeping horns not too unlike those of Saesee Tiin.

Keywords:Databank - Episode I, Databank - Episode II, Databank - Episode III

Filed under:Vault, Character

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#323 Posted by SensibleJake (10 posts) - - Show Bio

Kilius still being a retard lol

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#324 Edited by KeenCraft (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:Props to responding to that. That takes more mental fortitude than Dooku and Anakin combined. I'm especially glad to see someone laugh at the most ridiculous Serra Keto portion. I've noted the exact same things months ago but I still see it sprout up.

Just a note about the weak detail about Anakin being "as fine a [Djem So stylist] as Dooku had ever seen." being used as an argument. It is as much a comparison to Grandmaster Yoda as it is anyone else in the Jedi Order. It is also a comparison to Darth Sidious. Both are masters of all lightsaber forms, and would know Djem So better than Plo, Drallig, or Saesee ever would. (Though Drallig even has an "unparalleled in skill accolade. If he has mastered Djem So, it is also a comparison to him). Also @kiliussince I noticed you were trying to do all that research on Djem So :(

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#325 Edited by JacenSolo77 (1196 posts) - - Show Bio

The shear mental fortitude it took to respond, not to mention the top notch quality of the post itself proves why Arkham deserves respect and admiration as a debater.

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#326 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3352 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

Thanks.

@keencraft:

Props to responding to that.

Cheers.

That takes more mental fortitude than Dooku and Anakin combined.

I know lol. This is just the beginning for me though. I have multiple CaV posts to write, over a dozen other users to respond to with some of them being dumber than Lord Teneb. At least he can type grammatically cohesive sentences and sources his arguments.

I'm especially glad to see someone laugh at the most ridiculous Serra Keto portion. I've noted the exact same things months ago but I still see it sprout up.

I was actually convinced on Lord Teneb's point there and my original tactic was going to be dismissing it as an outlier however I read your post while skimming the previous pages to catch up on the context of the debate and it prompted me to do further research into the fight. You were completely correct with your analysis so thank you for that.

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#327 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with JS77, replying to Lord_Tenebrous is much harder than it seems

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#328 Edited by KeenCraft (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3 said:

I know lol. This is just the beginning for me though. I have multiple CaV posts to write, over a dozen other users to respond to

Damn, we're in the same boat. I've been responding to wayy too many posts recently. I even have two for you and one for JS77 alone, to mention some names.

But over a dozen is yikes; more than I have

with some of them being dumber than Lord Teneb. At least he can type grammatically cohesive sentences and sources his arguments.

No Caption Provided

I'm especially glad to see someone laugh at the most ridiculous Serra Keto portion. I've noted the exact same things months ago but I still see it sprout up.

I was actually convinced on Lord Teneb's point there and my original tactic was going to be dismissing it as an outlier however I read your post while skimming the previous pages to catch up on the context of the debate and it prompted me to do further research into the fight. You were completely correct with your analysis so thank you for that.

I didn't even realize the Serra Keto thing was mentioned in this thread lol. No problemo, and I would've jumped in if you did that. The idea of seeing Serra Keto ~ Knightfall Vader is just cancer

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#329 Edited by slayne (519 posts) - - Show Bio

The facility with which Anakin dispatched Dooku aboard the Invisible Hand is more than enough to warrant him the victory here. And I don't see it being too close a contest, either.

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#330 Posted by KeenCraft (738 posts) - - Show Bio

Go, go, gadget Knightfall Vader mode: Activate

No Caption Provided

I barely noticed how weary Dooku looked blocking the strikes

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#331 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (2385 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly: Thanks for providing the quote. I thought there was some definitive quote locking Marek's overall power below Yoda.

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#332 Edited by KillBilly (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: No problem. There isn't as far as I'm aware and his Force lock with Sidious would seem to suggest the opposite.

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#333 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (1632 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius:

"He does lose"

Welcome to the ranks of logic and reason.

"Nope. He's far younger and more powerful than Dooku as per Sidious, and Dooku in turn has objective statements putting more powerful than Maul"

I'm afraid you're repeating assertions I've already addressed. Sidious' statements can easily be for the intent of consoling General Grievous, who was greatly disturbed by the loss of his own master, Count Dooku. Especially given Sidious has been known to inflate the abilities of his apprentices. 

Besides, even if Sidious' statements were genuinely sincere, that would still be irrelevent as it is blatantly contradicted by Anakin's performance in the duel(E.G., Dooku maintaining the clear edge over Anakin + Obi-Wan, being stated to be a difficult match for both of them, still matching Anakin despite being exhausted and Anakin being rage-amped, plus a number of other advantages)

Although, I do agree as to Dooku's superiority to Maul. However, I do not recall any valid statements putting him over Maul, aside from AOTC Kenobi's subjective musings. But even that only applies to TPM Maul. I see Dooku as Maul's superior by virtue of comparing their various feats and accolades.

"Not going to address the Gillard system as I don't think I need to rely on it to make my case for Anakin being above the other two individually"

As you wish.

"Cause he's not, as per Sidious?"

Previously addressed.

"And the fact that he beat him and was holding an edge even before he completely cut loose?"

Tsk tsk. I've already demonstrated in great detail as to how this is plainly false. I'm afraid you're merely repeating statements I've debunked without offering any counter-evidence. Not that there is any. The only source that has Anakin even holding an advantage, is the Senior Novel. Which again, strays vastly from the movie and has each opponent individually stomp Dooku, before Anakin taps into his rage and simply decides to win, rendering the entire final duel a laughably one-sided fight that made Dooku into a joke, a child holding a toy. As I've proven ad nauseam, this portrayal is immensely contradictory and is contrasted by a multitude of other sources, ranging from the original script to the Star Wars Databank. But most importantly, the movie itself. The movie and script both being of higher canonity than the novel. 

I mean, heck, even the junior novel is infinitely more in line with the movie, despite it also possessing its fair share of many contradictions. In the beginning, the Jedi are going all-out, doing everything they can, but still Dooku is holding them off with apparent ease:

"Obi-Wan and Anakin ignored him. Lightsabers ready, they closed in. As Dooku reached for his own lightsaber, they charged. Dooku met them with a mocking smile. 'Don’t assume that because there are two of you, you have the advantage,' he said. Count Dooku deserved his reputation as a master of the old style of lightsaber fencing. Even with both Anakin and Obi-Wan pressing him, he seemed at ease. The Jedi used every trick they knew, leaping and striking from unexpected directions. Dooku blocked them all. At least he’s not having any more luck hitting us than we are hitting him, Obi-Wan thought. That’s a big improvement over last time." 

-- Revenge of the Sith: Junior Novelization

I mean, that's a step further than even I was going. I maintain that our dynamic duo was challenging the good Count, but he held the edge. In here, he ain't even struggling now is he. At least in the eyes of his opponents.

And here, Obi-Wan hints that they wouldn't fare too well if Dooku's power increased from its current level:

"No, Anakin, Obi-Wan thought. Don’t taunt him. Anger fed the dark side; they didn’t need Dooku’s power to be any greater than it already was."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Junior Novelization 

So yeah. Even when the Jedi manage to force him back(not very impressive considering Dooku used Makashi), it's only at a snail's pace:

"Despite the Count’s confidence, the two Jedi forced him slowly backward. When the super droids got in the way, they cut them down. At last they reached the first set of stairs to the balcony. As the Count started up, Obi-Wan disengaged and ran to the second set of stairs to attack him from behind. Climbing the stairs, he cut down two of the super battle droids."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Junior Novelization 

Anakin, of course, oddly enough performs better than the combined duo did, even when mentally disturbed(hmm, a bit of a contradiction there, and it's the book contrasting itself), as the novel goes on to note that they fought all over the expanse of the room, neither opponent gaining an advantage. But even then, going by Anakin's thoughts, it was evident that he did not believe himself capable of besting ole Dooku. This only happens when he gives into his rage, and that "nuclear" heart of his is released. 

Now of course, bear in mind that I'm not using this as an argument for showing how Dooku was better. Even this account is ripe-full of contradictions(for instance, Dooku not being tired at all). I'm merely pointing out that the Senior Novel is the clear outlier here, and by a vast, unmistakable margin. Every other source paints a different story(Even in the comic, Dooku holds out for a supreme amount of time, although shock is quite clearly pasted on his face, contrary to the facts). The argument, iirc, you made in our Cin Drallig vs KF Vader debate.

"Here's the scan in question"

Well thank you, but I'm sure I already posted the scan. Was the link faulty?

"Thing is, this is a) Yoda's opinion not a set in stone fact"

Well I agree. I typically like to refrain from using subjective statements as conclusive proof. But given Yoda's unique... shall we say chemistry? Given his unique chemistry with Dooku, this is unlikely to be a taunt. And this is a stark contrast to his appraisal of Dooku's fighting ability as of AOTC:

"Fought well you have, my old Padawan."

-- Attack of the Clones: Yoda

So at the very least, this must hold SOME weight, wouldn't you concur? Regardless, I'm sure you know my arguments do not rely on this little juicy tidbit, not in the slightest. It does however make for excellent icing on the cake. 

"Other objective sources around 19 BBY such as LoE have alluded to Tyranus as being 'the consummate duelist' consummate in this context meaning perfect or complete. Not a real indication he's 'gone backwards in skill'."

Ahhh Kilius, merely a fancy, eloquent way of praising Dooku's skill. Either that or it's another hyperbolic accolade. Like Mace,  Maul, Anakin, and Drallig all being stated as unrivaled swordsmen. Such hype is not given to chumps, so it's obviously indicative of immense skill. But nothing more I'm afraid. Even a past-prime Dooku is arguably the fourth most skilled being in ROTS, at the very least in the top 6. 

"It could easily be an empty taunt, much like Luminara's "sloppy" "unrefined" remark about Ventress's style."

Well I doubt even Luminara's statements are empty. Compared to Dooku, which is what Luminara was doing, Ventress is indeed all those things.

"Yoda: Dark Rendezvous which takes place in 19 BBY, a year after Yoda made that statement, he still thinks Mace is at best equal to Dooku on neutral ground. Dooku was always considered at best equal to Mace before the CW. In order for the statement to collaborate with Yoda's opinion that Dooku's skills "have gone backward" he would have had to have thought Dooku was better than Mace. More likely he was just taunting Dooku. No need to take it for any more face value than Dooku's remark about Kenobi's 'clumsy moves'."

Well we have several statements proclaiming Dooku to be surpassed only by Mace and Yoda. And then we have many statements placing all three in the same tier. And many more saying Dooku is second only to Yoda. It's a murky area, but generally I find it to be the most consistent, to have it be that Dooku was formerly second to Yoda, then was just narrowly surpassed by Mace in TPM, but then he surged ahead in his 10 years of continuous training, and is maybe slightly better in AOTC, at the very least equals. Mace then outgrows him over the course of the Clone Wars. But that's just me. As far as accolades regarding their standing go, it's a grey area for reasons previously stated. 

And frankly Yoda thinking Dooku was better does not work against me. Yoda holds Dooku in immensely high esteem. More-so than Mace, I'll venture. In the same novel, Yoda goes on to say that Dooku was their greatest student. In front of Mace and other Jedi. Then they AGREE with him, despite Mace flat-out outpacing him despite being younger(regardless of who you think is better, Mace attained a comparable level of power/skill to Dooku's, despite having less time to do so), and Anakin being the greatest student In the history of the Jedi Order.

Actually this helps Yoda's statement still hold weight, in fact even more-so now. If Yoda who is so obviously in awe of Dooku, levels such a negative criticism at him, the sincerity and likelihood of its authenticity is now increased beyond its original state. Thank you for for that.

"Force users don't need their eyes, it means nothing."

Well of course they don't. Just like we don't need snacks. But let's be honest here: it's much, much harder to get on without them. 

Dooku deflecting Anakin's attack from behind without even looking at him, while distracted by Kenobi who himself is mid-stroke, launching his own offensive against Dooku's exposed torso, is indeed telling. 

"Then he proceeds to be driven backwards by Anakin alone despite the leverage of the stairs." 

Good for Anakin, but barely. Especially given this occurred after an entire 4 mistakes made by the Jedi(E.G., Dooku blocking Anakin's attack from behind without looking at him, while faced by Kenobi... Dooku redirecting Obi-Wan's blade to meet Anakin's offensive, Dooku piercing their collective guard and using this opening to ragdoll Kenobi, Dooku evading Anakin's attack, causing the latter to overextend). And again, at this point Dooku is exhausted, and Anakin has a form advantage. And again, driving back a classical Makashi practitioner is not impressive at all, given the dynamics of Form II. 

Plus, knowing you do so enjoy writer intent, remember how I showed that in the original script, Dooku's Makashi was driving back Anakin + Obi-Wan? Funny enough, it was a lunge that begun his offensive too. Odd how when Dooku unleashed a flurry of similar moves in the faulty Senior Novel, Obi-Wan by himself was effortlessly stonewalling them. Big difference isn't there? What's even more funny is that neither thing occurred in the movie! So we're both spared, now aren't we. 

"If you go by the script Anakin was 'driving the attack' on Dooku. After becoming 'stronger as he becomes angry'."

Again, this isn't impressive given the advantages Anakin possessed, as well as Dooku's form being arguably the second most defensive, next to Soresu. On the other hand, to be driven back by a classical Makashi user... Now THAT'S embarrassing. 

Moreover, don't you see the pattern outlined by the script? When they first start, "a great swordfight" ensues. It's a good duel! Neither side is effortlessly handling the other. Then Dooku gains the advantage and forces them back! Then he becomes exhausted, and Anakin becomes angry. THAT, and THAT alone is when Anakin makes any noticeable progress. That's how it went down in the script(paraphrased of course), as well as in the movie. And as I've already shown, even that isn't much.

"Okay so Dooku's not in Anakin's one-shot range"

Blasphemy! AnAkIn dEcIdEs tO WiN

No no, you miss the point Kilius! Dooku didn't even have to block Anakin's strike. He was able to dodge it. Which is harder than blocking, even for an agile opponent. Especially when you're an exhausted one. Moreover, Anakin overextends right after. Long enough for Dooku to scale a few steps and turn around. Remember what happened to poor ole Grievous when he overextended? Good thing our friend Dooku liked stairs so much.

"If you are going by the movie and script alone, he was "tired". Big difference from being exhausted. Just saying"

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6cksy2dvJoGLSj2M7

"He needed to remove Kenobi from the equation as he could barely hold off Anakin alone"

This is contradicted by practically everything. There is no indication of this in the film nor the script for that matter. He removed Kenobi because, well, in a fight, you kinda want to remove your opponents. So you can win! Unless of course you're toying with them and deliberately prolonging the fight, in which case you wouldn't. Fact is, if he was barely handling each of them individually, as the novel states, then he wouldn't be able to pull off such a humiliating (for them) move, and take out Kenobi.

"Well I mean we're talking about KF Vader here, so I don't see why the rage amp can't apply to him in this fight"

KF Vader doesn't have the kind of amp that Anakin possessed after their fateful bladelock. KF Vader would more or less be the rage-amped Anakin who was fighting on the stairs. A bit more powerful of course. KF Vader isn't even amped. He's just using standard Sith emotions to fuel his DS energy, like Dooku. But these can be increased beyond the norm. That's a legitimate amp. 

"Anakin was just a tier 8 at this point"

Uh Kilius, y'know increasing in Force Power does not increase your lightsaber skill.

"Intense doesn't mean it's evenly matched"

No. But a fight wherein one opponent is massively, prodigiously, enormously, immensely, to the point of sheer hilarity, outmatched by his adversary, is not intense. Intensity implies difficulty, indeed great difficulty. And this was hit upon not once but twice. Moreover, Dooku was flat-out stated by objective sources to be a formidable enemy for the combined duo. So is amped-Anakin capable of mega-stomping LS Obi-Wan+Anakin? I think not. 

"Yeah he was 'tired'."

It means the same thing.

"Well I mean according to only the SN, which you seem bent on ignoring"

Why, not at all! If I recall correctly, the Senior Novel (I assume that's what you meant by "SN") has Dooku drawing on the Force to rid him of his exhaustion. I'm going by the Script, which notes that Dooku is already fatigued as early as the staircase duel. So logically, he's getting more and more exhausted as the fight progresses. Meanwhile Anakin is steadily growing more powerful than he normally is. Most simple. 

"Speed and precise timing was also involved. That's absolutely a skill feat, just not a saber only feat."

Kilius! You bank on this point despite my stating what you just said, in the next paragraph! Indeed, I have acknowledged this from the very start, before anyone brought it up and offered it as a counter. And I've acknowledged that I've acknowledged it from the very start. The only feat for Anakin in this was breaking Dooku's guard in the first place. But what follows, namely, Dooku's being disarmed, was a result of brute strength, and nothing more. Anakin merely holds Dooku's arms in place while he cuts them off. And I demonstrated why Anakin's lucky shot was illegitimate. So yeah.

"Could be referring to the blade lock where Skywalker was clearly at the disadvantage" 

Hmm. Not really. It says Dooku believed he held the edge up until Skywalker outmaneuvered him. Which is when he was disarmed. Not the bladelock at all. 

"And this is collaborated by both novelizations where Dooku had the upper hand when Skywalker was holding himself back and mentally unbalanced"

A bit of an error there bud. Only the senior novelization has Dooku gain the upper hand when Skywalker was emotionally disturbed:

"Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. 'I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child.' He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. 'Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?' Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk." 

-- Revenge of the Sith: Senior Novelization

The junior novel has it as a stalemate:

"As the balcony collapsed atop Obi-Wan, Anakin rushed at the Count and kicked him over the edge, then followed him down. He wanted to rush to the pile of rubble burying Obi-Wan, but he knew he couldn’t. It’s up to me now. I can’t give Dooku even the smallest opening. He tried to concentrate on Dooku, but his fear for Obi-Wan was hard to ignore. Dooku smiled, and echoed Anakin’s thoughts. 'I sense great fear in you, Skywalker.' He shook his head, as if Anakin were a particularly slow student. 'You have power, you have anger — but you don’t use them.' And I’m not going to, Anakin told himself. That’s the way to the dark side. Pushing his fear aside, he tried to forget the balcony crushing Obi-Wan and the intent expression on the Chancellor’s face as he watched the battle that would decide his fate. Anakin made himself focus on the fight, and only the fight. All of the super battle droids had been cut down; only Anakin and Dooku were left. Down the long length of the room they fought, neither one able to gain an advantage." 

-- Revenge of the Sith: Junior Novelization 

So yeah. Plus, Anakin is practically never mentally unbalanced in the movie. All these fight scenes you just read? Never happened. Non-canon. Anakin is enraged up until he enters the bladelock, at which point we don't really know what's going on in his head. Then as soon as they disengage(immediately after Dooku taunts Anakin, which allegedly mentally unbalanced him), Anakin becomes even more angry, and uses this amplification to win. This mythical fight wherein Anakin is mentally hindered, that occurred in between the taunting and the final duel, just never happened. As simple as that.

"He 'outmaneuvered him' (which by the way contradicts you're whole 'brute Force only argument' as outmaneuvering involves skill) after he cut loose." 

Why, not at all. There are two definitions of "outmaneuver:"

A. "evade (an opponent) by moving faster or with greater agility"

B. "use skill and cunning to secure an advantage over (someone)."

Either can apply, so really I could just select the first and everything stays consistent. But we know that Anakin's final amplification greatly increased his physical abilities(e.g., strength being boosted from being inferior to Dooku's, to superior, Dooku as per the script being increasingly exhausted which would ruin his physical abilities... And for you, since I know you just love the novels, the JN notes Anakin was becoming faster and faster), and the various quotes about Dooku thinking he had the upper hand and not anticipating Anakin's new strength, and given how Dooku was maintaining the edge throughout the earlier fight, it's obvious that the first definition is what applies here.

"Not sure how this helps Dooku's case tbh. You imply he could have done something about it if he could. (Like maybe not goad him into cutting loose so he doesn't have to deal with it, none of which would apply to KF Vader who has access to that kind of power off the bat)"

I showed how Anakin's penetrating of Dooku's guard was a fluke of luck with these quotes, despite him being significantly amped + other advantages + Dooku being fatigued. As for Dooku not goading Anakin... Well, I guess he was trying to unbalance him in this fight. Which worked in the novels. Unfortunately, not in the movie. Boomerang principle of Dun Moch, so sad. 

And you did it again. Namely, repeated something I've addressed in previous posts, without offering a counter. All Dark Siders use negative emotions, that's how they get their power. I don't call that an amp, unless the base power is LS. Staircase Anakin is amped from his standard power level. Final duel Anakin is amped even from the DS base power. An amp is, well just that. An amplification. It amplifies your abilities, takes them above their normal capacity. It's not an amp if it's the standard MO. LS Anakin is amped since the staircase, by LS standards, if not more-so. Post-bladelock Anakin is amped period. Tons of sources note that Anakin is unleashing a fury not seen before in the duel -- and we know Anakin was already pretty angry before. I'm afraid KF Vader is not IH Anakin. And unless Maul & Dooku are dumb enough to do it again, they still win. But even then, Anakin's mega-amp did nothing really. It was still a difficult fight, with loads of circumstances on his side. So they win solidly in that situation too. Unless they taunt him continuously about his mother, Ahsoka, AND Padme. In which case he goes Mortis-level-but-probably-better, and ragdolls them or speedblitzes. 

But we're talking realistically here. 

"And then Dooku and Kenobi get tired and Anakin who get's stronger drives Dooku back alone. Seems to me the intent of Lucas is to create a thematic parallel between the two duels of RotS and RotJ. Luke and Anakin both use the dark side even as Jedi; it's a part of their normal fighting style at this particular stage in their respective arcs, so it isn't circumstantial. When Anakin is partially angry he drives Dooku back and gains the advantage, just like Luke does in the first part of their duel when he knocks Vader off the balcony. In Luke's case he loses his edge when he's conflicted and in Anakin's case the same; this is made clear not only in the novelization but also the movie 'I sense great fear in you skywalker. You have hate you have anger but you don't use them'."

Anakin being stronger is just false, going by the valid evidence. Obviously there are immense similarities between the IH and TR duels, but the fighting balance is different. In ROTJ Luke is matching evenly with Vader (using the DS the whole time, according to the script) and then gains the advantage. In ROTS, Anakin + Obi-Wan are losing the duel and they never gain a real advantage, until the final duel which even then was pretty difficult. 

The script outlines the duel as such:

- (1) It starts, and it's a good fight

- (2) Dooku drives them back

- (3) It notes that Dooku is tired and Anakin is drawing on the Dark Side

- (4) Anakin drives Dooku back(Not impressive for reasons already detailed)

- (5) Dooku gains the advantage again 

- (6) They move up the stairs

- (7) Dooku gains the advantage again

- (8) Dooku is kicked off the balcony(Not impressive for reasons already detailed) 

- (9) Dooku taunts Anakin

- (10) Anakin attacks with "a new ferociousness"

- (11) the fight is very intense 

- (12) Dooku is disarmed

The ROTJ script outlines the TR duel as such: 

- (1) Luke attacks Vader, drawing on the Dark Side in his rage 

- (2) It's a tough fight

- (3) Luke gains the advantage

- (4) Luke realizes he's using the Dark Side, and stops 

- (5) Vader gains the advantage

- (6) blah blah blah irrelevent stuff happens 

- (7) Vader taunts Luke

- (8) Luke attacks Vader with "a frenzy we have not seen before"

- (9) Vader is disarmed

So yeah. As for the rest, I've already addressed it all. 

"The novel does exaggerate Dooku's distress compared to other sources"

A lil bit of an understatement there.

"But nevertheless Anakin's edge over Dooku is clear in the script. It's only when he's mentally conflicted does Dooku have a clear and decisive edge over Anakin"

What? In the script, before Dooku gets exhausted, he's engaging them in a fantastic fight, and driving them back. Then Anakin manages to drive him back(not impressive for reasons detailed ad nauseam). But then Dooku gains the upper hand again and chucks Obi-Wan. Then they move up the stairs(and according to the script, while on the stairs, Anakin flipped over him. Which means he was at the top, and Dooku was then at the bottom. Which means Dooku drove Anakin up the remaining steps, despite tons of massive disadvantages. Not pretty!), and Dooku again takes the advantage, removing Kenobi, and he gets kicked off the balcony in an act of Luminara-vs-Ventress-esque PIS kicking. Which doesn't faze him in the slightest(contrary to the novel). Then they fight, and Dooku taunts Anakin. Who then becomes mega-enraged and subsequently disarms Dooku in a highly intense fight. 

That's exactly what happens in the script. Unless of course, I've got a fake one. But I highly doubt that.

"LS Anakin on a first time encounter,"

Come now Kilius... that droid had never met Anakin either. Plus, LS Anakin is just as skilled as KF Vader. Just not as powerful, or as fast, or as strong. Anakin as a swordmaster cannot stomp mega-elite duelists, like most people here claim. He struggles with far lesser ones. Anakin The Dooku Stomper's stomping limits are Grievous' personal guards, and Serra Keto-level opponents. I don't know about you, but I'd place Mace, Dooku and Maul above them. As well as Grievous, and the High Council. Etc. 

"pre-TCW retcon where he stomps them left and right" 

I do not recall Anakin "stomping" any caped, purple-staffed and hooded MagnaGuards, who are General Grievous' elite, iirc. Regardless, they aren't all on the same level. Same tier, yes, but their skill varies. Quick example would be when Adi Gallia and TCW Anakin were confronted by commando droids when trying to rescue Eeth Koth. Anakin one-shots one of them with a martial strike, but then the next one goes head-to-head with him and holds out for a good amount of time, even dodging some of Anakin's strikes.

"beats an opponent with "near lightspeed reflexes", technical mastery of all seven forums, and "hyper sophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation" in under 20 seconds. A faster, stronger, more powerful, KF Vader would in all probability stomp the droid in a second encounter." 

That's all well and good, but this does not alter the fact that ROTS Anakin flat-out struggled against one of Grievous' bodyguards. There is no basis for KF Vader being able to significantly outperform his LS iteration, especially given that KF Vader experienced a similar bout.

"Outlier and from an unreliable source which has the same KF Vader level Anakin ragdolling Mace Windu with the Force and flooring him with the power behind his strikes; and that Mace Windu still beat Palpatine. Going by the VG power scaling Serra Keto can press Sidious too in sabers only."

Yeah well if we are just dismissing feats we do not like, I say Anakin beating Dooku is an outlier, even though it doesn't actually hurt my case.  

As far as the VG, you yourself endorsed a quote that confirmed the legitimacy of the whole Keto thing another thread:

"Jocasta Nu and Serra Keto deaths are continuity..."

-- Leland Chee

The Mace vs Anakin duel is murky from what I recall. Anakin only ragdolls Mace in the beginning, and Mace was clearly holding back most, if not all of the time, as evidenced by the dialogue and cut scenes. He spends the entire duel trying to reason with Anakin, and when the latter smashed him to the ground with brute strength, Mace simply floors him wih a kick without even bothering to stand up. Anakin is again quickly dispatched of later in the fight, when Mace is knocked down by a martial strike. The Jedi Master notices Palpatine watching them and then proceeds to ragdoll Anakin before leaping back up into the Chancellor's office. In the final cutscene, Anakin manages to gain the upper hand over a visibly immensely exhausted Mace who just stands there and allows Anakin to impale him. 

So yeah. Serra wouldn't last a second against Sidious.

"Well I mean I seriously doubt Lucas's was involved at all in the Cin Drallig and Serro Ketto examples from the game, especially since in the script the Jedi that ended up being Cin was stomped and was heavily implied to have been in the film. At the very least there is no indication in the movie that Cin gave Anakin 'the fight of his life'."

I was referring to the ROTS movie duels in the quote you responded to, rendering this entire rebuttal, invalid.

"Again IG example is LS Anakin and he did beat it relatively quickly after he adjusted to an unfamiliar opponent with meta-human physicals that exceeded even that of Jedi, and one that specializes in Jedi combat."

LS Anakin is comparably powerful to KF Vader and just as skilled. As shown by TCW, Anakin has had plenty of experience with the fighting styles of MagnaGuards so there is no difference in this fight other than IG-102 being considerably more skilled in said style than the others. Zero unfamiliarity, ROTS Anakin flat-out struggled against him.

"LS Anakin isn't certainly above Sidious and Yoda. Heck DS Anakin isn't even." 

Correct. 

"But he's close"

Incorrect. 

"and he can indeed make short work of Dooku"

The movie and script drastically contradict this.

"Dooku can probably delay the inevitable for a maybe 30-40 seconds tops, but it's a one-sided fight all the way."

30-40 seconds is actually a pretty good amount of time for a duel. Hardly "short work." 

"Not if Kenobi sticks to defense unlike Dooku and Maul who are mainly offensive fighters who don't have the means to prolong an engagement with someone significantly more powerful than themselves." 

Not in the slightest. His defense is still tier 8 meanwhile by the tiering system, Anakin is by far the greatest of the tier 9s, and in these high levels, the difference between tiers is enormous.  

Anakin has absolutely zero valid feats that are better than pre-AOTC Dooku on Korriban, nor does he have anything that places him above Maul by any decent margin. 

In terms of fighting prowess, Dooku > Maul > Vader. In terms of Force Power, Dooku > Vader > Maul. 

"He certainly can if Anakin makes a sloppy mistake on an environmental disadvantage" 

Only if Anakin loses his focus after a lengthy and closely-matched duel at the very end. Going by the invalid sources worshipped on this site, Anakin should >>>>>>>>> Obi-Wan but yet they have the greatest duel in SW. The only explanations for this have been "hurr durr anakin sad" and nonsense about Obi-Wan being amped or something, aside from the mythical knowledge advantage. 2/3 of these "advantages" are lame in influence and do not even to begin to account for the balance of the fight, and to top it off they were mutually shared and therefore not real advantages. And then the remaining one is non-canon.  

Fact of the matter is that Anakin having even parity with Yoda or Sidious is blatantly contradicted by his G-canon portrayal, and in order to justify this you must rely on laughably dubious sources and utilize nonsensical mental gymnastics, all efforts which end up failing anyway.

"I mean based on Kenobi's defensive feats I doubt even Sidious and Yoda could stomp Kenobi in pure sabers." 

What defensive feats? He held off Mortis Ahsoka iirc, but that's nothing. His holding off of TCW Maul + Savage is pretty good, although circumstantial given he was completely focused meanwhile Maul is blinded by his irrational hatred. Plus the fact that Savage's vastly inferior swordsmanship would have greatly hindered Maul, as with the Jedi that Bane and Zannah fought. 

But even that is within even TCW Sidious' capacity. Well-within, in fact. I cannot think of any other notable feats aside from his fight with Anakin, which would be circular reasoning if you tried to use that.  

Unless of course, you are referring to him effortlessly stonewalling Dooku's stabbing offensive in a non-existent C-canon novel scene. But while we're going by non-existent scenes, the G-canon script has its own non-existent scene... wherein Dooku drives back Anakin + Obi-Wan. So much for that. 

"Koon's best feat is stalemating 4 ABG Ventress" 

Stalemate is not the appropriate term. Koom gained the clear advantage over Ventress while injured(broken arm), hindered(broken arm fixed in one place), disadvantaged(using one arm, ruining his Djem So execution) and restricted in movement(arm fixed in one place will make it far harder to properly maneuver). And then to top it all off, Ventress concedes that he fought well despite her earlier comments about his injury. 

Sure, she managed to land a kick early on, but if my memory serves me well, he then proceeded to ragdoll her and then deprive her of a blade. A Bespin-esque trade. Luke manages to tag Vader, who retilates by landing his own blow. And no, she didn't force him back right after. She just pressed him up against the railing in a bladelock, which he was already right next to when he disarmed her. Superior strength, and nothing more. 

He proved superior by a decent margin to admittedly a pre-prime Ventress, while significantly disadvantaged. 

"Kenobi in the TCW novel held the advantage over Ventress(and this collaborated by Fillini saying Kenobi was in no danger)"

TCW movie Kenobi made an utter fool of her while possessing a form disadvantage. Granted she disarmed him, but judging by his demeanor, and immediate performance right after, it's clear he let her. While unarmed, he then proceeded to clown her and then regain his blade. If the duel had ended right there, I would have concluded that she was fodder compared to Obi-Wan. Their vicious duel that came after is the only thing that redeemed her. And even then, when they moved to the bridge, Kenobi damaged her saberstaff in a few seconds and then disarmed her of a lightsaber shortly after.

"RotS Kenobi is heads and shoulders above Koon" 

This is not backed by legitimate feats nor accolades, for that matter. CW Koon being widely considered to be the third best duelist in the Jedi Order and narrowly below the 2nd at that. Heck, even Maul shared this opinion of Koon as early as before TPM. Now clearly Koon isn't the third best, or narrowly eclipsed by Mace, but such a reputation demonstrates that parity with Obi-Wan is the very least of standings. 

"Depa I'm on the fence on, as I haven't yet finished Shatterpoint, but from my understanding Mace tagged her while severely disadvantaged. Not sure what she has that gives her proximity to Kenobi other than Mace's hype."

Well yes, he was severely disadvantaged and holding back. For one thing, he was literally impaled right before the start of the duel. But I'll leave the rest for you to read. I personally despised the novel. It had a passable plot, and Mace's character was completely butchered(can you really picture Windu saying "I'm the big dog here"), fights were inconsistent(Mace stomps Kar in h2h, then gets defeated when he was off-guard, then Mace says Kar was better??), and Vastor's power level was ludicrously massive, to a nonsensical degree. 

But I digress. 

It's mostly Depa's accolades + her contention with General Grievous that implies her being comparable.

"As for Tiin, no sparing evenly with TPM Mace does not give him proximity to RotS Kenobi who stonewalled Dooku who should be stronger."

It does. It may have been TPM Mace, but it was also TPM Saesee. As logic dictates, Saesee would also grow as Mace did. Especially given that Saesee is repeatedly stated to have a strong connection to the Force. A quasi-prodigy of his own, so it's clear he would not peak so early:

"Saesee's flying practise also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #114

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JXXuYfhDwyLEjKkG9

As Mace grows, so would Saesee. Clearly Mace would grow at a faster rate, but I sincerely doubt that his ability to contend with Mace would leave him. As with Obi-Wan and Anakin. 

Obi-Wan never stonewalled Dooku, this occurred in a scene that never happened, as I've proved before. 

"Agen's feat is honestly overrated having recently read the comic. Yoda, Mace, and Vos set the whole thing up so that one Jedi(Agen) would legitimately believe he has turned over to the confederacy. Agen was chosen because they figured he wouldn't actually hurt Vos and it was agreed amongst the group that if things were going to get too ugly Vos would surrender; which means he too was holding back and trying not to hurt Agen" 

The fight was intended to be a ploy, to demonstrate to Dooku that Vos was indeed no longer allied with the Jedi Order and Republic. Vos was intended to hold back, like Kolar, but as evidenced by the comic, he did not. His dialogue showed his conflict, and it was Quinlan who attacked Kolar. Kolar laughably stomped Vos while on the defensive, and twice at that, while holding back. 

Moreover, even if Quinlan was holding back, this would not detract from the feat. If the whole fight was to be staged, an act, why wouldn't the Council inform Kolar, rather than deceive him? Kolar too could play his role. No, it had to be authentic. While both parties would be holding back, the intensity would be likened to that of a sparring match... they refrain from lethal or injurious blows, but aside from that, work to the best of their ability to overcome the other. 

So regardless, Agen's feat stands, and it marks him as among the absolute top Jedi swordsmen of the time, easily on par with Obi-Wan at the least, especially when coupled with his accolades. 

"Kit's the only one loosely comparable to Kenobi. And even then he put up a good fight in the novel. And it's been suggested in other sources that Sidious had a surprise advantage when he blitzed the Jedi(and I'm not talking about the novel)." 

If Kit put up a good fight against Sidious, even with Mace at his side, that would be more than enough to put him on par with Kenobi. But he didn't, he sadly was cut down extremely quickly as per the movie. 

Yes, yes, apparently Sidious used a Force Scream that temporarily dampened their Force abilties.

"He was only holding back offensively and this doesn't mean anything anyways since Gillard also said Anakin was superior. And Gillard's comments do have weight here as even if you don't buy his tiering system, what he wrote for this fight had to be cleared with Lucas. Anakin is superior to Kenobi as per an adorative source second to Lucas." 

Kenobi would be holding back from making any sort of attempt to win. He's trying to ride out the storm, merely hold Anakin off rather than fight at full capacity. This changes at the end but only briefly. 

Gillard's saying that Anakin is superior doesn't work against my argument, as I too believe Anakin to be superior. I just believe them to be closely matched, as proved by their duel on Mustafar. 

Now, I don't know about Gillard being a deeply loving source, but although his word does carry some weight here, it is nonetheless non-canon, and I brought his quote into play as I know you all just adore him.

"They are"

Exactly. 

"It's funny how sources always say ANH Vader > Anakin, yet every Legends source that depicts ANH Vader vs Ben Kenobi is always evenly matched, particularly Death Star where Vader was so hardpressed he couldn't even spare the concentration to warn the stormtroopers not to intervene. And just about every source including the movie itself states unquivically that Kenobi was past his prime from RotS by a good amount" 

That's because the fight was written as evenly matched. The mounds of lore that exists now, did not exist then. It's even heavily indicated in the dialogue that Vader was inferior when they last met. This has long been retconned of course, but that is how it was back then. The script portrays the fight as even, and the movie does not contradict this. You're mixing two different eras that are simply non-comparable in terms of movie showings. 

Different standards, different fights. Zett Jukassa displays superior swordsmanship, more than any OT duelist, does not mean he is better as the standard now was not the way it was then. OT Vader struggles against Luke with minimal training, post-retcon Vader while years pre-prime, casually slaughters several fully-trained Jedi who possess an ambidextrous command of multiple lightsaber techniques. 

As far as Vader not being able to spare the concentration... that's ludicrous. An exhausted SN (I will refer to the senior novel's portrayal of the Count as "SN") Dooku was getting terribly pummeled by Anakin and yet he was able to call for the aid of his droids:

"Skywalker was all over him. The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker -- Skywalker was getting stronger. Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again. He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious. That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat. 'Guards!' he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. 'Open fire!' Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Senior Novelization

So yeah, exaggeration. Moreover, also in Death Star, it's confirmed that Vader is superior to his former incarnation:

"He had been a superior fighter even when he had been Anakin Skywalker, and yet Obi-Wan had defeated him."

-- Death Star 

And this is shortly after noting that Kenobi had fallen out of practice. In anycase, I wouldn't place ANH Vader above KF Vader by anything more than a narrow margin, nor would I have the difference between ROTS and ANH Kenobi be large. All that has been shown is that a much more experienced although less skilled Obi-Wan managed to put up a great fight against a better Vader. Good for Kenobi, I'd wager he would hold out for a time against Maul too.

"Feats > Statements and there are other statements that point to Vader(along with Ben) to being "shadows of their former selves", as per Fightsaber, which is honestly more inline with ANH Vader's actual showings against the old and out of shape Ben and the inexperienced Luke where multiple sources state that he had difficulty with even as of ESB."

Again you're trying to conflate two different worlds. The expansions of the prequels were not present for the OT, the two movie-only events just aren't comparable. Vader's previous standing was retconned by the PT, and confirmed in the EU.  

Fightsaber also takes care to mention that Obi-Wan is still a top-level fighter:

"Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner."

-- Fightsaber

So yeah. 

"And TCW Maul is stalemated by TCW Kenobi" 

A rusty Maul beat a rage-amped Kenobi onboard their shuttle. Obi-Wan provided an infinitely greater showing later on Florrum, although there were circumstances in play that time. Overall, their power scaling going by TCW is murky.

"who is more powerful than Ben Kenobi who pushed ANH Vader to his absolute limits. Yet Anakin is stronger than Kenobi. Performances and reliable scaling once again trump contradictory statement.s" 

It's debatable as to whether TCW Kenobi is above ANH Ben, especially given that there are many statements indicating that the latter grew in power. All you've got so far is that TCW and ANH Kenobi can give their superiors a good fight. This does not work against my argument. 

"Maul beat a Ben Kenobi level opponent, who is sub-RotS Kenobi/Skywalker in a prolonged hard fought "more evenly matched than expected" engagement. Not exactly above Anakin, in fact compared to him it's an anti-feat." 

TPM Maul defeated a factually ROTS Vader+ opponent, landing multiple blows throughout the duel meanwhile Vader ever only managed to carve Maul's saberstaff in half, and then be defeated.

TCW Kenobi (more or less) = ANH Kenobi < ROTS Kenobi < ROTS Vader < ANH Vader < TPM Maul. That's how it is, as shown by the facts. 

Vader here is simply facing two opponents that are individually superior to him, and thus, he will lose. Solidly, and every time.

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#334 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (1632 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

A good portion of your post is comprised of regurgitated assertions I've already debunked, therefore in many instances I'm just going to lump said statements into one category and address them that way.

"Are you honestly this stupid?|This is some terrible logic right here.|If you were able to read...|Good grief these arguments are horrible.| What a load of absolute nonsense.|I have to say though I've never seen such bad arguments and such a complete disregard for canon as well as cancerous lowballing.| This monstrosity of an argument really is the full package Teneb which is why I felt the need to address it.| Unfortunately though you probably won't respond to this cause you know you'll get rekt again.| The amount of mental gymastics performed in your rebuttal to @kilius really is astounding."

This is the ad hominem and derogatory statements section. You see, our friend arkham here is far too insecure in the validity of his own arguments to let them speak for themselves. No, you see that would be what we call decency. Civility. Concepts well beyond most here, when dealing with opposing opinions. Either that, or he's just plain arrogant. Perhaps he was always this way, perhaps this loutish mentality was developed over prolonged exposure to the internet. We may never know. 

Regardless, juvenile behavior like this is why internet debating is so largely discouraged. But it is however, most amusing.

"All Jedi given into the Force to amplify there combat awareness and get in tune with a battle which this passage what with Bane performing a feat he'd never done before. You're trying to separate pure skill into it's own category when it's impossible to gauge as ones skill level varies depending on their connection to the Force something Kilius notes later in his/her post."

There is an obvious difference between your abilities being amplified, and you being utterly controlled in your movement. In the passage displayed, Bane was not fighting with his own ability. He didn't even know what he was doing. The Force was fighting. Not him. No skill whatsoever involved, this shouldn't need to be explained. 

The only reason your skill varies depending on your connection to the Force is because the amount of midi-chlorians you possess, dictates the amount of potential you have, and subsequently the amount of talent you have. Talented individuals progress more quickly than less talented people. Simple. 

"First off to say this is anything but an outlier is incredibly disengenuous but I'll play your little game"

An outlier? Hmm... this coming from the guy using Anakin's one (illegitimate and debunked) Dooku feat (entertainingly, from just one source too) to place him above Maul + Dooku, meanwhile I've brought to bear his fights with Serra Keto, IG-102, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Cin Drallig as well as Darth Maul, as contrasting evidence. And on top of that, I've already invalidated his fight with Dooku, ad nauseam. In fact it aids my point. And you've the laughable nerve to accuse me of presenting an outlier. 

Regardless, the G-canon "outlier" completely destroys your C-canon novel excerpts that have LS Anakin practically stomping Dooku PRIOR to his rage-amp, meanwhile good ole IG-102 hard-presses the same Anakin. 

"Anakin is outright stated to be a tier 9 physically"

By a non-canon, unreliable, contradictory source.

"and be on par with The Emperor"

A garbage assertion based on a misinterpreted quote. Moreover, which is it? Gillard's system has Anakin be by far the best of the tier 9s. You claim Lucas states he's equals with Yoda. Can't have it both ways bud. 

"He puts up mental barriers around him and almost never displays his full power except for a few key instances eg: Knightfall and the end of his fight with Dooku on The Invisible Hand hence why he struggled with the MagnaGaurd.|This showing where Anakin wasn't displaying his full power doesn't indicate Anakin isn't Sidious tier just that when he's not displaying his full power he isn't. There is no indication Anakin used anywhere close to the power he displayed against Dooku or furing Knightfall.|Yes but that's demonstratably not what happened here. If you were able to read you'd see all Anakin was doing was releasing the mental barriers around him not amplifying his abilities through a special kind of Force Rage or whatever.| Anakin is in the exact same state in this fight. Can you please stop throwing around the term "amped" like he actualy was. Releasing ones full power does not qualify as an amp lmao.| Except this is his normal capacity. He hides his power beneath mental blocks and these mental blocks are removed on the Invisible Hand and during Knightfall (the version used for this battle). It's not that hard to understand.| All of which happened before Anakin released his true power.| It's elaborated on that Anakin has firm mental barriers in place hence his showings against the MagnaGuards..."

1. If we're going to harp on this continually in order to try and discredit Dooku's clear edge over LS Anakin + Obi-Wan, then by this logic every single Jedi in the entirety of SW is holding back their true power therefore full-power Anakin fought an Obi-Wan who was restraining his full power. Same with Yoda and Sidious. Plo and Ventress. Qui Gon and Maul. Drallig and Vader. Satele and Malgus. Ben and Vader. Etc. Fact of the matter Anakin is just not skilled enough to stomp anyone of the really high tiers. His feats prove this. Increasing in power does not increase skill, just power. LS Anakin is just as skilled a duelist as DS Anakin, who is just more powerful.

2. KF Vader is not the Anakin in the final moments of the duel. That iteration is amped even from a DS basis. KF Vader is the iteration around when Obi-Wan was taken out. Even before the staircase... according to the G-canon script, Anakin is using the DS:

"As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Original Script

Anakin's anger is already in usage here. So he's becoming increasingly more amped until the very end, when he becomes mega-enraged. There were no "mental barriers" in place, like the novel says. He was already drawing off of his fury. And still Dooku was superior, even in exhaustion. 

So as far as Anakin's actual combative prowess goes, Dooku is clearly the superior, and decently at that. Only when Anakin's Force Power increases, is there any difference. And not very much. All he does is manage to drive Dooku backwards, which is not only unimpressive due to the various circumstances, but isn't anything new as Anakin did this as early as the staircase. Only difference is that Anakin's strength is now above Dooku's, and it ended in Anakin breaking his guard, not Dooku humiliating him + Obi-Wan.

"This is some terrible logic right here. Essentially your argument is as follows"

Sigh. Allow me to explain this, since you are evidently incapable of understanding it on your own. Serra is below Drallig, who is above Grievous. Maul is also above Grievous. Which places Drallig and Maul in the same range, unless one of them can stomp Grievous, which is clearly untrue. Maul is below Sidious by a significant margin, who is below Yoda. Not too hard to comprehend. 

"First off Yoda isn't better than Sidious. They're equals or Sidious is better."

The G-canon movie and script both disagree with the C-canon quotes and novels. Yoda is above Sidious, in both sabers and Force Power. 

"Drallig and Keto could easily be above Maul" 

First off, Keto is some obscure young Knight. It's highly unlikely that there are better-than-Maul opponents just floating around out there. Moreover, this is impossible given how young she is, unless she's by far the greatest prodigy in history, even more-so than Anakin, who in AOTC, almost a Knight, was still stomped by Dooku who is in the same range as Maul. Plus, Keto is solidly below KF Vader who is below ANH Vader who was smacked around by TPM Maul. So yeah. Not happening.

"Unless this is a typo and you meant to say Drallig is below Grievous but as to that I'd have to question where the evidence is. You haven't provided any." 

Drallig's feat with Vader + accolades + scaling over lesser lightsaber instructors + Shaak Ti scaling are good enough, plus the fact that Dooku thought Grievous would be no match for Drallig lends great support to this idea. 

But even if you do think Grievous is above Drallig, this only further aids my point as it would be Serra < Drallig < Grievous < Maul < Sidious < Yoda. 

So in essence, this is really a minor and mostly irrelevent topic.

"Here's what actually happened" 

I do so enjoy how you state this and then go on to post clips that contradict your argument.

"Then what we see is essntially KF Vader winning the fight by kicking Keto to the floor and walking forward to finish her. Keto then manages to TK throw an object which takes KF Vader by surprise and hits him (by all means a cheapshot) and then she runs away. KF Vader follows her and then the two get ready to engage each other again."

Saying he won the fight when he kicked her down is speculative, she was barely even stunned, like when Drallig did it to him, was still facing him, and was still fully armed. Obviously the fact that he landed such a blow was indicative that he maintained the upper hand(obviously), but nothing more. 

"KF Vader effortlessly blocks a series of strikes from Keto"

This is visual eisegesis. With the information presented, nothing indicates this. 

"without even using both hands" 

A disadvantage on his part, but given that he was using his cybernetic hand, it's barely worth noting.

"and ducks under her strikes towards his head and manages to dodge to get out of his awkward position. He then TK's a pillar which falls onto her. So basically in a shot summary KF Vader beats her with unknown difficulty, gets cheapshotted, engages with her again and effortlessly blocks multiple strikes from her despite only using one hand and escapes from a highly disadvantageous position. How you can argue Keto put up a fight is quite frankly beyond me." 

Keto drove him down the hall and backed him up against the pillar. How you can argue that she didn't put up a fight is quite frankly beyond me. The fact that he didn't wade in and easily cut her down after getting himself out of the disadvantageous position, instead resorting to use of the Force(to kill her in a cheapshot, by your standards) does not help your case. 

She didn't get the Bene or Whie treatment. Or for that matter, the Mortis Ahsoka treatment. She held her own against Anakin The Dooku Stomper. 

 "The reason he absolutely pummeled Dooku was because he was simply more powerful and his power in the Force dwarfed Dooku's.| Anakin [was] overwhelming Dooku...| because [Anakin] was already stomping anyway.| that Anakin was just better at everything and that Dooku was his inferior. That's all there is to it.| Anakin was just better than Dooku.| Nah Anakin has him beat in just about every category besides Mental Fortitude and Experience.| [Anakin did] Destroy Dooku.| Anakin stomped Dooku.| Dooku when he's returned to full strength literally gets the (expletive omitted) kicked out of him by Anakin.| Anakin's vastly more powerful.| Anakin's Force Powers made Dooku's look like a joke.| Anakin was battering Dooku...| " 

Absolutely none of this happened. At all. Ever. The only source that ever portrays this is the heavily-debunked senior novel, which displays the fight as such:

- Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin fight, but both parties are holding back

- The Jedi are allowing themselves to be miserably clowned

- Dooku is being stomped by them

- Anakin then stomps Dooku

- Obi-Wan then stomps Dooku 

- Anakin again stomps Dooku

- Dooku manages to land a hit on both

- Skywalker is beating Dooku

- Dooku stomps Anakin 

- Anakin mega-stomps Dooku

Here's how the fight actually goes:

- Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin engage in a great fight

- Dooku gains the upper hand over the combined duo 

- Dooku becomes exhausted, Anakin becomes amped 

- Dooku maintains the advantage

- Skywalker and Dooku fight 

- A bladelock occurs 

- They fight again in a very tough duel 

- Dooku is disarmed 

The Count proved undoubtedly superior in this fight, that's just a fact. 

"The novel makes that fairly clear.| per the novel| the text notes| the text notes| The novel disagrees.| as per the novel.| The text notes| The novel notes| The novel literally notes..."

Stop acting as though your holy senior novel has any significant place in this conversation. I've debunked it irrefutably in nearly every single relevant passage, and not only is it overflowing with blatant contradictions at every turn, but it completely strays from the actual balance of the true fight as portrayed in the G-canon movie and script. 

"False equivelancy. You're comparing something Anakin overwhelming Dooku and Jinn being unable to against Maul to Anakin not bothering to ragdoll Dooku because he was already stomping anyway."

Nope. Kilius argued that if Qui Gon had been skilled enough to do what Anakin did, he would have. I countered with if Anakin had been skilled enough to disarm Dooku by way of the blade, he would have. And so forth. Do try to follow the conversations you insert yourself into, it'll help avoid some embarrassment. 

"Not to mention you don't necessarily have to be able to ragdoll someone to be vastly more powerful than them." 

Obviously.

"Wut? Anakin beating down Dooku's guard doesn't count as skill? You know there is skill involved in utilsing an advantage (like superior strength) effectively in combat right?" 

What? Holding Dooku's arms in place counts as skill? Nope. Merely brute strength. 

"Not to mention pure skill is totally irrelevant as we're discussing a match up where Anakin has superior strength to the 2 opponents he's fighting in this battle.|True but the problem is arguing who is more skilled is irrelevant because Anakin has the strength advantage in this battle and can use it to pummel both of them." 

Tell that to Savage when he first fought Dooku. And no, Anakin is not superior in strength. To Obi-Wan, yes, but clearly not Dooku until the end when he becomes amped. Dooku matches their combined strength in a bladelock earlier, and overwhelms it later on. His kick also stuns Anakin, meanwhile Anakin's does not faze Dooku in the slightest. 

"Furthermore even base Anakin was pushing Dooku back when the latter had the leverage of the stairs| Also even base Anakin was capable of pushing Dooku back solo when the latter had the leverage of the stairs.| Not to mention you ignored the part where Anakin presses Dooku solo despite the latter having the leverage of the stairs." 

1. This was not "base" Anakin. It was enraged Anakin vs exhausted Dooku. 

2. I never under any circumstances ignored this. You've attempted to bring it up before and I've debunked it in other posts. This is not very impressive at all given Dooku's form, Makashi, being arguably the most defensive form bar Soresu, differing entirely from the other techniques in its method of attack. Dooku can back away from an opponent yet still remain completely superior as he demonstrated in this fight. Him having leverage doesn't afford him any advantage, it only negates the vulnerability of Makashi to Djem So. Which evens it out, until you realize that Anakin is amped and increasing in strength meanwhile Dooku is exhausted and logically becoming more and more tired. 

And then he immediately regains the advantage over both of them when they reach the top of the staircase. So moot point. 

As for the novel portrayal, I already debunked it having anything to do with anything other than physicals, and then I debunked the severity of it and even the existence of the excerpt before.

"with the latter only being able to land a single kick on him which per the novel took the remaindeer of Dooku's reserves to do." 

Another lie from the novel. It took all of Dooku's reserves to execute a kick he never made:

"Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Senior Novelization 

Surprise surprise, you'll notice this never happens in the movie. Dooku strangles Obi-Wan and lifts his leg backwards to kick Anakin.

"Dooku was holding a clear edge against an Anakin who had yet to release his full strength which doesn't correlate to this version of Anakin. And Dooku unbalancing Anakin with Dun Moch doesn't count either." 

Also against an Obi-Wan who had yet to release his full strength👍 Ignoring that this is in fact DS Anakin, yeah going by your Grievous standards this is way more than enough to put Dooku above him. 

Dooku never "unbalanced" Anakin with Dun Moch... At least, not during a relevant portion of the duel. Unlike in the novel(another surprise), there is no fight scene in between his taunting and the final duel. They enter a bladelock, Dooku taunts him, Anakin becomes enraged and shoves Dooku off, and they engage in a tough fight.

"I don't get why you're saying 'well if we just removed all of Anakin's advantages like superior physicals and superior Force Power Dooku would win' because he has all of these advantages in this fight and almost every fight in SW is based on who has superior Force Power, Physicals ect." 

No, I'm saying if we removed Anakin's circumstantial amp, he's left with his real power, strength, speed, experience and skill all of which are inferior to Dooku's as the latter is a superior fighter. 

"You haven't proven this."

I absolutely have. You just continue to desperately cling to the unquestioningly-worshipped senior novel aka the Word of God. You must break from the mindless cult of brainwashed fanatics and grasp the uncomfortable truth so clearly displayed by the script and movie: Count Dooku is superior to Anakin Skywalker. 

"Can maybe see this being the case. However you haven't substantiated it with anything"

I could go into detail but solely by the movies, Dooku is a calm, confident and calculating fighter with far more maturity, meanwhile Anakin is an unstable train wreck with anger issues, who slaughtered toddlers on the possibility of his wife dying, and then he went and got himself cut in half due to arrogance, recklessness and impatience. He's also considerate, compassionate and brave but this doesn't negate the aforementioned traits.  

"See above" 

83 year old Dooku being more experienced than 23 year old Anakin is debatable? 

"Yet to be proven that he's faster." 

His actual contention with Yoda's speed as they both move in blurs:

"The Jedi Master Yoda confronted Dooku. The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other. It came down to a contest of lightsabers. In a blurring tangle of speed and light, the two masters of the Force dueled."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Especially given that Yoda can speedblitz Jedi Masters like blasted Plo Koon, Depa Billaba and Saesee Tiin: 

"And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council—Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all—had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him."

-- Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

This is easily better than AOTC Anakin creating after-images, and the hyperbolic quotes about Anakin being the fastest Jedi, the best speed feats Anakin has, if I recall correctly. 

 "I'd say Dooku's Force Power's being a 'joke' in comparison to Anakin's says otherwise"

I'd say this being a completely false statement means I couldn't care less. An extremely amped Anakin was still experiencing great difficulty against an exhausted and disadvantaged Dooku, to the point where the latter still believed that he held the upper hand. 

As far as a feats comparison, Dooku's casual tossing around of quite a few vehicles + an entire cruiser prior to AOTC, while only marginally amped is superior to TCW Anakin shoving the wreckage of an AT-TE in a burst of adrenaline, or ripping apart a large spider droid. 

"Nah Anakin has him beat in just about every category besides Mental Fortitude and Experience."

Factually incorrect.

"Yay! More unsubstantiated claims." 

Alright, since you seem determined to turn every single irrelevent and insignificant mention into an argument. 

Logically, Savage has practically zero saber skill. Every single one of his showings with high tier fighters have been pure, unadulterated PIS and nothing more. 

He is plucked from the ranks of a fodder clan and given powers and strength by Nightsister magicks, and then carted off to Dooku, who sends him off to Devaron. This fight I do not mind so much, as Halsey is overpowered via brute strength + martial arts, not dueling skill. So it's all good there. Then he gets stomped by Dooku in lightsaber sparring, and gets some basic training in the Force. Then, on the very same day, he's given another mission wherein he manages to hold his own against TCW Anakin and Obi-Wan, and then telekinetically shove their shuttle off a ledge. The latter is tolerable... but the former? He's had like what a day of training, probably not even that. 

On top of that, he returns and so starts the fight between him, Asajj and Dooku, after which he engages Anakin + Obi-Wan and holds his own for a time. To my knowledge, he first enters the scene in "Monster," 20 bby, and dies the same year. Within this time period he fights with swordmasters like Adi Gallia and Plo Koon.

Even that entire year consisted of brutal training, this still would not account for the completely unprecedented rate of "growth" he experienced. From fodder to top tier in hours. Meanwhile Anakin, the greatest Force prodigy in galactic history, after 10 years of training, is only roughly an equal to AOTC Ventress. So unless the Nightsisters are supreme experts at creating prodigies that put Anakin to utter shame, it's merely PIS. 

And no, his many years of vague experience with regular Nightbrother weapons do not explain this away, not even in the slightest. Shii-Cho, based off of swordfighting(a weapon that greatly resembles a lightsaber, although completely different), is stated to be vulnerable in lightsaber combat for that very reason: 

"A Master from the Sabilon region of Glee Anselm, Kit was a practitioner of Form I lightsaber combat: it was the most ancient style of fighting, based on ancient sword techniques..."

-- Cestus Deception 

"Because the ancient Jedi did not have lightsaber-wielding enemies, Form I does not address the lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat."

-- Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force 

And from what we saw, the Nightbrothers don't even use swords. Just spears, morning stars, axes, scythes, etc. And a lot of good this experience and weaponry did them against Ventress, and a holding back Anakin and Obi-Wan(also hindered by a DS nexus, iirc). Yet Savage can not only wield a lightsaber skillfully, but a blasted saberstaff. 

As cool as Savage is, his fights are PIS, and nothing more. 

"I'd say the film displaying Anakin battering Dooku in under 15 seconds in the film shows Anakin having the advantage wouldn't you?| Provide a source which shows Dooku not being crushed in under 15 seconds by Anakin with his full power released. I'll wait.| And guess which source has Anakin stomping Dooku in 15 seconds| Anakin stomps Dooku in the source you're using as your argument against him." 

You are deliberately and dishonestly exaggerating Anakin's performance in the final duel in order to fit your own preconceived narrative. The only source for this, as I've said many, many times, is the novel which goes off on its own path. The script, which the movie is based on, factually states that it was a grueling fight. Not once but twice, despite Dooku being immensely exhausted and disadvantaged, while Anakin was mega-amped. 

As far as the swordplay balance of the pure film goes, there is zero indication of anything even remotely near "a stomp" occurring. Anakin drives him back (unimpressive) at practically the exact same pace as in the beginning of the duel when it was Anakin + Obi-Wan(when Dooku was factually stated by two separate sources to be a formidable adversary for the team), as well as on the staircase and off the balcony prior to the bladelock. Dooku perfectly meets each and every blow Anakin sends at him(indeed he attacks twice), never breaking in his measured tread until Anakin shoves him away with brute strength when he flat-out stops retreating. He then maneuvers his way around Anakin, and is drawn into a bladelock at which point Anakin reaches over and holds Dooku's arms in place while he cuts them off.  

Furthermore, this portion of the duel wherein Anakin is allegedly "stomping" Dooku, is actually the longest uninterrupted portion in the entire fight, albeit only by 1 second. The second longest is from when Anakin engages Dooku on the stairs, to when Obi-Wan intervenes. And a good amount of that duel between Anakin and Dooku occurred off-screen. 

Odd that somehow while amped advantaged Anakin is completely "stomping" exhausted Dooku, the latter believed he held the upper hand, and for the entirety of this dueling portion, Anakin never breaks Dooku's guard once until the very end, in an exchange lasting roughly 11 seconds, meanwhile literally every 2-3 seconds of the previous fighting, Dooku prior to getting exhausted, as well as during, demonstrates his holding the edge:

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw

^^ 1:07 fight starts, at 1:10 Dooku blocks Anakin's attack from behind without even looking at him. Dialogue occurs, then fighting continues at 1:24, at 1:26 Dooku drags Obi-Wan's blade to meet Anakin's attack and form a three-way bladelock. 1:29, Dooku finds an opening in Kenobi's guard and ragdolls him. 1:31, Dooku dodges Anakin's attack and the latter overextends. So yeah. 

If Dooku is being stomped to the point of hilarity in this instance... goodness gracious, the level of stomp Dooku was dishing out against ROTS Obi-Wan + Anakin must be simply beyond words. Not much of a "great" duel, as the script says, now is it?   

"There goes that out the window," as you say. 

"Fluke shot? You've got to be joking. I could easily just claim that a bunch of fights in SW were flukes but that does not make it so."

Yep. Which is why I cited evidence showing Dooku was unprepared for Skywalker's newfound strength. Anakin caught him off-guard.

"I'm sorry wut? There are two clear as day statements that separate Anakin's power and potential with one saying he was as strong as Sidious and he had the potential to grow twice as strong and the other saying when he became Vader he lost the power that was on par with Sidious and the potential to surpass him"

I'll assume you're referring to the TESB commentary quote, in which case you're simply making things up. With the information presented, literally all he says is that Vader lost a lot of power, as well as the potential to become more powerful than Sidious:

"He's lost a lot of power and a lot of potential to become more powerful than the Emperor."

-- The Empire Strikes Back: Director's Commentary

As for the second, he "clear as day" clarifies what he meant in the next sentence... "[Anakin] wasn't what he was supposed to become." 

Meanwhile we have another "clear as day" statement flat-out establishing that only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious. One from "The Making of Revenge of the Sith," which was published a month before the article wherein Lucas made the misinterpreted statement that Anakin was somehow as strong as Sidious. And a screenshot from this very thread states that Lucas would change his ideas after committing them to screen, meaning that my quote would take precedence, being the closest to when the film was being created. 

So either way, the facts are with me. 

"that he was hindered in his fight with Obi Wan and couldn't utilise the power he had properly."

Aww... Anakin is a Dooku+Maul stomper but he couldn't do this to only Obi-Wan cuz he was sad :(

Illogical and a laughable excuse. As well as a false one. He failed to stomp a holding-back Obi-Wan, both were equally disadvantaged, bar the aforementioned edge. That's a fact. 

"Well duh of scourse Anakin can't compete with Sidious. The man knows him inside and out and knows exactly how to manipulate Anankin's mental state therefore affecting Anakin's power." 

Odd, I never read any of that. He just says no one but Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious. Just the way it is. Moreover, anything Sidious did would enrage Anakin not unbalance him, making him more powerful.

"Plus Lucas literally notes that Anakin could have competed with Sidious had he not got beat up on Mustafar."

He says Anakin if he hadn't gotten injured would have defeated Sidious. An assertion no one disputes, and one that does not in any way help your case.

"Also Anakin unleashing his full power held back a Theta Storm which Obi Wan thought that Yoda might not be able to achieve." 

21 bby TCW Anakin holding back a storm subjectively stated by Obi-Wan who is biased towards his former Padawan, to MAYBE be beyond Yoda's ability to control, is really nothing largely impressive. 

"Second isn't an anti feat as Keto was getting rekt plus she has no anti feats so we could just assume she's that skilled. This is a feat for her not an anti feat for KF Vader and as I've already pointed out she never really gave him a fight. First was base Jedi Anakin. Anakin was majorly hindered in the third. Drallig never gave Anakin a fight. They clash for about 2 seconds on screen and the videogame is non canon." 

1. Keto backed him down the hall and maneuvered him against the pillar. She can clearly hold her own against Anakin The Dooku Stomper. Assume she's that skilled? More skilled than Dooku and Maul, and subsequently the Council? Cool story. 

2. "Base" Anakin isn't a much less powerful than KF Vader, and he's just as skilled. 

3. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan were mentally "hindered," and knew each other's fighting styles. Except according to the Junior Novel, Anakin's hindrance made him more powerful and gave him an advantage:

"But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Junior Novelization  

4. According to the ROTS VG he gave Vader one heck of a fight. On-screen they clashed for about 6 seconds, not 2. But this is a minor point, and I don't need it to get across my argument. So I'd rather not get into another debate about this.

"This isn't a rebuttal. It's just you saying well this "makes little sense" and therefore you saying it's true does not make it so. There isn't a way to distinguish whether Lucas is talking about Anakin current power or his future potential. He said that Anakin couldn't because he was beat on Mustafar and Anakin factually lost both power and potential after the events on Mustafar so there is no way to know what Lucas meant."

It absolutely is. It's pointing out the logic in the explanation provided, and the lack thereof in the post I was addressing it to. It is your "rebuttal" that is illegitimate. I brought to bear perfectly logical rationalizations, and all you did was say "no ur wrong this doesn't count." 

Fact of the matter is that Lucas said no one except Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious, and him saying that post-Mustafar non-injured Anakin would have beat him does not invalidate this.

"He's literally trying to define Vader's current power when bringing up these 2 lmao."

Exactly. 

"He already established Vader was below Sidious so bringing up Maul and Dooku is kinda pointless as it should be self explanatory that he's like them as he's below Sidious. He's very clearly using these two to establish where Vader's power is as of the OT and it lines up with Vader's other performances." 

Now who is using the "well this makes sense" argument? Pitiful. In anycase, it's not odd for him to bring up Maul and Dooku.

They are examples, "visual aides." He's saying "Vader ain't on Sidious' level -- Like Dooku and Maul." 

Very simple.

"It's entirely possible Anakin is incredibly adept and got the hang of Lightsaber combat really early and peaked at 23."

No, it's not. Unless Anakin's talent somehow does not apply to his swordsmanship, which is ludicrous. 

"Yeah thing is though Vader was a completely different fighter fro Anakin. His fighting style changed to ajust to his cybernetics so whatever previous mastery he had is almost completely irrelevant and as I pointed out above it's entirely possible Anakin was extremely adept at Lightsaber combat so he peaked really early which isn't that unreasonable especially when you consider the fact that he was fighting in a galactic war."

You aren't countering anything here, you're just repeating what Kilius said + something you said earlier. 

"Yeah the problem is Anakin used Djem So in a completely different way from Vader lol. Vader basically stands still or slowly moves around compared to Anakin who's literally running around and jumping. The style being the same doesn't mean he didn't have to adapt to his massoive loss of speed and completely alter his fighting style because of it. Basic logic dictates this. Look at how differently Anakin and Vader fight."

Hilarious. It's evident you didn't read the paragraph you responded to as I already addressed every single thing you said. Organic Anakin mixed Ataru gymnastics into his Djem So to negate its lack of mobility. All he would need to do is ditch the Form IV acrobatics and stick to pure Djem So, his main form anyway that he had already mastered, which was 100% tailor-made for his suit. 

No massive change was needed. 

"Obi Wan was formidable in his own right and certainly isn't talentless like you're making out. See above rebuttal for Obi Wan being talentless" 

You didn't actually refute anything here. You just said "Obi-Wan is good and he's not talentless." And he is talantless, or borderline. Hard-working and studious, yes, but he was almost carted off to the AgriCorps. Through long and arduous training did he attain such a high level of mastery.

"Also how long someone has trained for isn't relevant at all. I Fence and I've managed to beat people who train far more extensively than myself."

The sheer, unadulterated ignorance in this portion is sickening. Training has EVERYTHING to do with how good you become at something. You can't just pick up a sword and outduel a master of 30 years. "Practice makes perfect" much? Seriously, this is kindergarten level stuff. With study comes growth. Is water no longer wet?

"Wut? The extra reserves Dooku would have to use to amp himself would most likely be minimal and hardly constitute him being vastly more powerful."

Let me spell it out for you bud. 83 year old Dooku lasted as long as Obi-Wan in stamina. Because of his advanced age, Dooku would have to have great Force Augmentation to compensate for his lack of natural, physical stamina. Dooku's Force Augmentation allowed him to last as long as someone far younger than him, who also had Force Augmentation prolonging their stamina. 

"Also Sidious wasn't inflating Vader'a abilities. Sidious legitimately believed everything he said which is supported by his actions. We have no reason not to take Sidious's commentary as legit."

Another case of you just saying "ur wrong im right" and acting as though this constitutes a legitimate counter. Sidious' history shows he has a habit of inflating the abilties of his apprentices, and given the circumstances, there is no reason why that is not the case here.

"Except he didn't perform well." 

Yes, he absolutely did. Dooku maintained the edge over ROTS Obi-Wan and LS Anakin, and continued to hold this edge even when he becamed exhausted and Anakin used the DS. When Anakin finally experienced a terrifyingly powerful amp, Dooku still held out for a great amount of time considering the established pace of the overall fight, and the duel is noted multiple times as being grueling. He even thought he had the upper hand, and was disarmed when he was caught off-guard. 

"Except in AOTC he fought back and forth against Yoda (someone more powerful than him) rather than retreating showing Makashi stylists don't normally retreat as their default "

He only did so because Yoda rarely stayed in one place, he kept flipping around Dooku, and thus was rarely staying in one direction long enough to drive Dooku back. No fighter retreats as their default. Not even a Soresu practitioner. Stonewalling one's attack is always the preferred option. Or driving them back, if your form permits. But not everyone can do that. 

"and it's further supported that Anakin was indeed pressuring Dooku by the fact that in this instance Dooku also had the leverage of the stairs as an advantage but chose to retreat anyway." 

Again Makashi is more of a passive form, and retreating is not indicative of much. Being driven back by a Makashi user is what is telling. Plus Dooku was offering attacks even as he backed away, demonstrating that he was not in any way being overwhelmed despite his exhaustion. 

Even aside from that, your precious novel states that Makashi flat-out cannot generate the momentum to match Djem So:

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Senior Novelization 

So yeah. 

"Yeah but this never happened in the movie whereas the above did. This is non canon and should be disregarded."

Good to see I'm making progress in regards to canonity. Nonetheless, you're attempting to refute an argument I was not seriously presenting. It's another "directorial intent" excerpt for Kilius' sake.

"Yeah because a rage amped Luke was far more powerful. Also the only reason he "tripped" is because he couldn't stay on his feet due to Luke hammering his defence."

As far as going by the movies alone, in no way was Luke "far more" powerful. That portion of the duel was the longest on-screen part, and by a good margin at that. Vader was dodging most of his blows, and when they actually clashed in lightsaber combat, Vader was only being forced back at a snail's pace. Moreover, Vader tripped during a lapse in the fight, so your statement is false.

"I don't think Obi Wan would be particularly upset about having to put up a defence against the guy who was trying to cut his head off. All he was doing was not bothering to press the offensive. It doesn't hinder his ability to fight. Thee reason he doesn't want to fight Anakin is because he doesn't want to kill him which isn't somethiing he'll have to do if he's soley defending himself"

Hold up a minute there bud. You previously endorsed the idea that Anakin was mentally hindered, presumably holding back due to his attachment to Obi-Wan. But now you're saying the lad is trying to decapitate Obi-Wan? Hmmm...

Again, Kenobi's emotional attachment will not only affect his ability to fight period, but his willingness to exploit any openings Skywalker may give. 

"You're assuming that such an opening existed for Kenobi to capitalise on." 

Given that the two were unbelievably closely matched, and that they were each exchanging blows throughout the fight, I'm not assuming anything.

A quick summary of the facts:

Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin were fighting a tough duel in the beginning:

"OBI-WAN and ANAKIN charge COUNT DOOKU. A great sword fight ensues."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Original Script

"Waiting for them was Count Dooku, and unlike the impulsive and disorganized attack that had marked their last confrontation with Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin challenged Dooku as a team. Dooku proved a formidable opponent."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia 

"Obi-Wan and Anakin challenged the Sith Lord as a team. Dooku proved a formidable opponent."

-- StarWars.com: Databank: Official Biographry Gallery

Dooku was holding and maintaining the edge during this time:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/gVHztiaPtwCJRQaA8 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/U3ehFVGGCcPCSMVx8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9VjJVK4DMw7Dv5ZG7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6h2d623tARBpsH6x9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/SVmMcrMjKCo3n1gE7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/yqiwPgFwkRvcnmNf9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/iAhKgff8L8jyhUpa9

Dooku then becomes exhausted, and Anakin draws on his anger to become more powerful:

"As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Original Script

Dooku continues to hold the edge, despite the aforementioned disadvantages:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/E3zjy9Cp8hNaNwVF7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/yo37Eg68SqQibwBF8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ramVYSVCT7fyK3yR6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/U4p9rJbw7UWZJqnJ6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/VbsxZUYLXcZeCqTa9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bswchgcZwjQiZVRo9

"ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Original Script 

"ANAKIN and COUNT DOOKU move up the stairs. As they reach the upper landing of the General's Quarters, ANAKIN leaps over COUNT DOOKU."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Original Script

https://photos.app.goo.gl/a4STKSs3nFxrCkCWA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/2BZbeMQqg9r6W6Gm7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Xp9X94ywDXFykDi9

"COUNT DOOKU holds OBI-WAN in the air using the Force as he turns and kicks ANAKIN out of frame."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Original Script

Anakin then manages to land a kick on Dooku with a furious yell, having become even more enraged.

Dooku is launched off the balcony, but is unfazed and lands gracefully. Anakin immediately follows him off the platform.

They then continue their fight, entering a bladelock. Dooku then taunts Anakin, who becomes even more angry.

At this point, they resume dueling, and the fight is noted twice as pretty tough:

"Their fighting becomes even more intense. Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Original Script

"Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. It is intense!"

-- Revenge of the Sith: Original Script

At this point, despite Anakin's rage amp and Dooku's severe exhaustion, the latter believes he still maintained the edge:

"Goading the fiery-tempered young man throughout the duel, Dooku thought he had the upper hand until Anakin outmaneuvered him. Skywalker severed both of Dooku's hands and snatched the Sith Lord's red-bladed weapon."

-- StarWars.com: Databank(Old)

And another source indicates that Skywalker was merely holding his own:

"In the lightsaber duel that ensued, Obi-Wan was knocked unconscious by a withering telekinetic blow delivered by the Sith Lord. Anakin continued to hold his own alone, urged to the offensive by Palpatine's goading."

 -- StarWars.com: Databank(Old)

Then, Anakin draws the caught-off-guard Dooku into a bladelock and reaches over, grabbing his arms and holding them in place while he cuts them off:

"Dooku appeared, engaging both Jedi at the same time. He first defeated Obi-Wan, Force choking him and nearly crushing the Jedi Master with a heavy railing. An enraged Anakin continued the fight, unleashing a strength Dooku had not anticipated. The young Jedi cut off the Sith Lord’s hands, drew Dooku’s lightsaber to him, and the Separatist leader fell to his knees." 

-- StarWars.com: Databank

https://photos.app.goo.gl/fuQxpV9npYkVgnnX9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/brW3uAtdudMorAZu9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/K42oUBJakyumxhzZA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/iLxMvMjvH2RFPFgb9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uT89YPouTMhnJ4PS6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/DS7235BTuSpUrd8V9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GnqRptQEgF4LCnHb8

On the other hand, TPM Maul has decisively beaten ANH Vader on Kalakar Six:

https://goo.gl/images/RRZS7b

https://goo.gl/images/Dyqr3L

https://goo.gl/images/os1Xex

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8X1rJcTiyRxZLW3L7

https://goo.gl/images/xCWM76

A duel that was confirmed to be of legitimate canonity:

"Resurrection was selected as one of Star Wars Insider 83's 20 Most Memorable Moments of the Expanded Universe, with Leland Chee confirming its canonicity on his blog."

 http://web.archive.org/web/20120213195410/http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/22/comments

"Kalakar Six: A moon reputed to be the site of a climatic confrontation between Darth Vader and a resurrected Darth Maul."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Vader has fought each opponent before, and in both encounters, he was shown to be inferior. As such, he will factually and indisputably lose this battle every single time, and solidly.

Now then, you may resume your infantile, petty, and entertainingly pathetic mutual back-patting, as well as the archetypal insulting.

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#335 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (1632 posts) - - Show Bio

And with that, I bid this hilarious thread farewell. Again.

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#336 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3352 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous: Will respond later if I can be bothered. Regardless you probably won't respond but I'll deal with this anyway.

Also apologies for some of the rude comments. They were uncalled for and unnecessary. I just get rather frustrated sometimes when writing long responses.

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#337 Edited by Kilius (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous:

Anakin vs Dooku

I'm going to address your arguments in points as oppose to quotes to keep things as concise as possible. It's possible I might miss few things but I'll do my best.

1. Sidious was consoling Grievous but the thematic intent is pretty clear.

2. We have Obi Wan's comments and we have two OOU sources affirming Dooku's superiority to TPM Maul:

More sophisticated, more calculating, and if anything deadlier than Maul, Count Dooku (a.k.a. Darth Tyranus) proved himself more than a match for the combined skills of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones.

Source: Panel-to-Panel Volume 1

And another from user DarthAnt I'll just post the link #617.

3. I'll compile my Dooku vs Anakin arguments here rather than go through each point by point. I'll try to address all the relevant points of your argument one way or another.

As I argued before, the thematic intent of the duel is Anakin surpasses Dooku as Sidious's replacement apprentice. That's why Anakin Dooku and Kenobi are depicted as tiring while Anakin keeps getting stronger. He's clearly meant to be the strongest of the three. I'll concede that Dooku does gain advantages at certain points, but the fact remains every time Dooku and Anakin are alone, it's Dooku who is forced to give ground. Dooku seems to have much better success against Anakin when Kenobi is around, which can be attributed to his talent in disrupting duos. Also I know you are allergic to the SN, but it does make a point that Anakin and Kenobi's teamwork often worked against them in the initial battle:

''It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other's way.''

And it doesn't even contradict the final cut of the film; you can see in this gif Kenobi sort of gets in the way of Anakin's strike:

No Caption Provided

It adds up. Dooku can disrupt their chemistry and hold a edge to a certain extent against them together, but alone against Skywalker without his teammate getting in the way, he can press Dooku back.

As to Anakin being mentally unbalanced, it is alluded to the script not just the SN:

"COUNT DOOKU: (continuing) I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don’t use them.

Anakin regains his composure and attacks COUNT DOOKU as the Dark Lord continues his spin to meet him head on. Their fighting becomes even more intense.

Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness."

To have to regain one's composure one would need to have lost one's composure. And Dooku's line "great fear" is in the movie too. Anakin was mentally unbalanced in all relevant sources after Kenobi was taken out, it's the only reason Dooku was holding an advantage against Anakin when they were alone. Before a partially angry Anakin drove Dooku back up the stairs and then an unchained Anakin beat him down decisively.

As to Dooku's exhaustion. In the SN his exhaustion is mainly attributed to Anakin anyways, and even then he rejuvenates himself during a pause. Even if he was fresh a DS amped Anakin would have beaten him down harder than the one who exhausted him in the first place.

Ignoring SN, the script only makes note that both he an Kenobi are tired, which is hard to quantify.

And it the final bout wasn't at all evenly matched even if you just go by the choreography:

2:22 - 2:27 Anakin drives Dooku back. Dooku strikes back with a confident grin.

2:27 - 2:30 But Anakin shoves him back and you can see Dooku's lost his confident smile.

2:30 - 2:34 Dooku over extends and Anakin seizes Dooku's wrists and cuts his hands off. All in under 12 seconds. Tired or not it's not a good showing in Dooku's favor. Maybe a fresh Dooku could last 10 - 30 seconds longer. Who knows. Either way DS Anakin is clearly Dooku's and by extension Maul's superior at this point. It's how the character was written. It's the whole point of this scene.

Anakin vs Vader

That's because the fight was written as evenly matched. The mounds of lore that exists now, did not exist then. It's even heavily indicated in the dialogue that Vader was inferior when they last met. This has long been retconned of course, but that is how it was back then.

Which includes Resurrection written back in 2001 when Vader was still "a shadow of his former self". It wasn't until 2005 when writters depicted Suit Vader as his combative prime.

OT Vader struggles against Luke with minimal training, post-retcon Vader while years pre-prime, casually slaughters several fully-trained Jedi who possess an ambidextrous command of multiple lightsaber techniques

I know it's ironic that all of Vader's best feats with the possible exception of TFU come from 19-18 BBY. It's a shift in the paradigm as you've pointed out and Resurrection is not part of it.

As far as Vader not being able to spare the concentration... that's ludicrous. An exhausted SN (I will refer to the senior novel's portrayal of the Count as "SN") Dooku was getting terribly pummeled by Anakin and yet he was able to call for the aid of his droids:

Yeah I can agree with that, but the main reason for me bringing it up was that Vader was pushed to his limits against post-prime Kenobi.

So yeah, exaggeration. Moreover, also in Death Star, it's confirmed that Vader is superior to his former incarnation:

"He had been a superior fighter even when he had been Anakin Skywalker, and yet Obi-Wan had defeated him."

-- Death Star

KF Vader was superior Anakin. The quote is referring to their Mustafar duel. And it's in-universe anywise.

A rusty Maul beat a rage-amped Kenobi onboard their shuttle.

And Kenobi had been previously beaten into unconsciousness and forced to make do with an unfamiliar curved gripped lightsaber, hardly optimal condition. They were both hindered and Kenobi held a clear upper hand in the initial battle:

0:57 - 1:00 Maul and Kenobi clash evenly.

1:01 - 1:07 they clash and switch opponents briefly and re-engage. Note that Ventress lands a kick on Maul, while Kenobi lands a punch on Savage. It's a visual indication the team has a slight advantage.

1:08 Kenobi lands a kick on Maul and sends him back a few feet.

1:18 - 1:22 in the background Kenobi and Maul clash evenly

1:30 - 1:34 Maul and Kenobi clash. Maul overcommits himself leaving him vulnerable to Kenobi's Force push. Kenobi uses the moment to check on Ventress instead of pressing his advantage, an indication he's in control at the moment.

1:39 - 1:42 Kenobi outmaneuvers Maul and retrieves his lightsaber and kicks Maul again out of the way in order to return Ventress's lightsaber.

1:50 - 1:52 Maul finally makes headway and lands two successive kicks on Kenobi putting him on the backfoot.

2:01 - 2:09 Maul presses his attack, slowly pushing Kenobi back then uses a dun mock tactic

2:16 - 2:21 Kenobi breaks the blade lock and presses Maul back in a series of ferocious slashes, but leaves himself open to Maul's kick.

It's even specifically stated that Kenobi's rage unbalanced him. Kenobi fights much better when he has a clear mind, being rage amped only hinders him. That's why when he's more focused an prepared, as per Filini, he performs much better in their rematch.

Obi-Wan provided an infinitely greater showing later on Florrum, although there were circumstances in play that time. Overall, their power scaling going by TCW is murky.

The Florrum duel was inconclusive but the even the one minute of the initial fight before Savage kills Gallia, is a pretty good gage of their general standing, they were evenly matched seeing how neither gained any real advantage, unless we count Kenobi's kick that sent Maul reeling, which further shows Maul isn't TCW Kenobi's solid superior. It all points RotS Kenobi/Skywalker being decisively above TPM Maul.

It's debatable as to whether TCW Kenobi is above ANH Ben, especially given that there are many statements indicating that the latter grew in power. All you've got so far is that TCW and ANH Kenobi can give their superiors a good fight. This does not work against my argument.

But it's not debatable RotS Kenobi > ANH Kenobi by the majority of sources. Kenobi's connection the Force may have strengthened, but physically and combatively he is past his prime.

Does it really make sense for TPM Maul to beat a superior to RotS Anakin/Kenobi solidly, yet have his more powerful TCW incarnation more or less evenly matched with TCW Kenobi? It would make more sense to me if Vader was supposed to be a post-prime iteration of his past self, just like Kenobi was. Just like they were originally written to be.

Anakin vs Kenobi

As with Anakin vs Dooku instead of addressing by quotes I'm going to address this in concise summaries, just to keep things simple. As with before I'll try to address all your main points one way or another.

I reviewed the script version of the fight and I noticed that contrary to the secondary sources it wasn't depicted as evenly matched:

ANAKIN: You will try.

ANAKIN ignites his lightsaber.

ANAKIN lashes out at OBI-WAN, and they begin a ferocious sword fight. ANAKIN throws CONTAINERS at OBI-WAN using the Force.

They work their way off the landing platform and into the main entry hallway. ANAKIN kicks OBI-WAN, and OBI-WAN drops to a lower level.

ARTOO BEEPS his concern and rushes to the unconscious PADME's aid.

View screens EXPLODE around ANAKIN and OBI-WAN as they work their way into the Control Room. The fighting is intense. OBI-WAN is on the defensive as he jumps up on the table view screen in the center of the room.

ANAKIN: Don't make me destroy you, Master. You're no match for the dark side.

OBI-WAN: I've heard that before, Anakin . . . but I never thought I'd hear it from you.

ANAKIN forces OBI-WAN back into the Conference Room where the quarters are much closer.

(Kenobi is specifically noted to have been forced back, which debunks any counterclaim that he was on the defensive by choice. Anakin again is the one with the advantage here.)

Sparks fly everywhere. ANAKIN jumps onto the conference table. OBI-WAN slides across the table, knocking ANAKIN over. OBI-WAN grabs ANAKIN’s lightsaber as he falls. OBI-WAN uses the Force to summon his dropped lightsaber. ANAKIN does the same.

Kenobi does gain some ground here, but this doesn't mean he was an overall equal. ESB Luke scored hits and pressed Vader at times, Jinn pressed Maul at times, AotC Kenobi/AotC Anakin pressed Dooku briefly, and so on.

The battle intensifies.

OBI-WAN: (continuing) The flaw of power is arrogance.

OBI-WAN stands looking at his former apprentice for a moment.

ANAKIN: You hesitate . . . the flaw of compassion.

OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN.

Both combatants are blasted backwards onto the control panels.

The infamous Force push stalemate is actually Kenobi pushing and Anakin blocking. Anakin blocks Kenobi's Force push and as we saw in the movie Kenobi just keeps adding more and more power until Anakin's defense overloads and sends them both flying. It doesn't mean they are equal in applicable power. And as stated before there is precedent for less powerful Force users, such as Kas'im countering TK from a more powerful opponent.

They regain their footing and the battle continues. ANAKIN kicks OBI-WAN away.

They battle around the room, and eventually the door to the exterior is knocked open. They continue battling out onto the balcony.

ANAKIN forces OBI-WAN down a narrow balcony outside the Control Room.He rips objects off the wall and throws them at OBI-WAN as he pushes him further and further along the walkway.

The balcony ends, and OBI-WAN is trapped. He looks over the balcony and into a river of lava.

ANAKIN cuts apiece of the balcony railing off, along with a control panel.

ALARMS SOUND, and a protective ray shield around the superstructure disappears. It tumbles into the molten abyss, disappearing in a puff of smoke. A small pipe connects the Control Center to the Main Collection Plant. OBI-WAN has no choice but to tightrope-walk out across the lava river while fighting ANAKIN.

(Contrary to the opinions of those who state that Kenobi was deliberately on the defensive and leading Anakin to an area of his choosing, the script makes it pretty clear that Kenobi was forced to give ground and literally walk the tightrope.)

Kenobi just held out against a superior duelist through defense until he was able to exploit an opportunistic environmental advantage and exploit Anakin's arrogance. He landed some hits but again there are plenty of examples of lesser duelist throughout the lore scoring hits on there betters. Doesn't change the fact that Anakin pushed a Soresu master's defenses to the brink and was basically controlling the fight 90% of the time.

Not going to address Vader vs Sidious/Yoda as I'm not actually completely sold on that. But it doesn't matter in my case, as I think I have more than enough evidence to prove Vader is above Maul and Dooku individually.

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#338 Posted by MYGOD101 (309 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader/ Anakin wins mid diff.

he already beat Dooku while only marginally embracing the Dark side, since then he was much better. Maul is the weak link here, who isn't even as powerful as Dooku.

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#339 Edited by dark_globe (262 posts) - - Show Bio

KF vader is a wrecking machine . he has more raw power in his lightsaber attacks then even yoda or sidious .
only those two could and would beat him 1 on 1 at this stage because of their mastery of the force and lightsaber technique and more balanced mind sets .
but in raw power KF anakin already surpassed them .

maul and anakin/vader have similar fighting styles , they heavily relay on their aggresivnes , strenght and stamina and want to overpower their opponents .
they both won in a similar fasion against qui-gon and dooku .
anakin can do everything maul can but he can do it much better by the time of KF .

dooku will lack stamina to keep it up with those two and would have to use all his force reserves to just keep up .
anakin will not tire and eventualy dooku goes down . maul follows because anakin is just way better at what he does at this point .

the only way team could win is if they can take him down fast before dooku goes down , or take him by surprise by lightning
(doubtful he would make the same mistake twice against dooku and he is far more powerful and resilient then he was in AOTC) .

KF vader 7-8/10