Knightfall Vader VS Count Dooku and Darth Maul

KF Vader stomps Maul. I give Dooku half a minute tops.

Dooku gets stomped again. Maul puts up a better fight as Dooku's superior as a lightsaber user.

Not sure if he can beat both of them. I'm actually of the minority opinion that Anakin wasn't hindered on Mustafar and while Kenobi would have an advantage these two don't share(that being his knowledge of how Anakin acts and using it against him) the fact that he can contend with him indicates a closer parity than most give credit for.

Anakin at this stage can beat either of them individually but I think both would overwhelm him in a fierce fight.

@necromancer76 said:

Vader, but the team gives him big trouble

Dooku gets stomped again, and Maul falls soon after.

Knightfall Vader is overwanked and Dooku and Maul would easily defeat him together. There's zero evidence that he'd be able to defeat Dooku alone based on the facts the novelization states that Dooku was holding back and told by Palpatine not to harm Anakin. Lets have a more serious discussion.

Knightfall Quake vs Dooku and Maul




Hint. I win.

@daisy_johnson: Lol. Nice photoshop.

Zero evidence isn't true though. We've Nick Gillard who says Anakin is physically a tier 9 (not mentally but it's still impressive), that puts him slightly above of tier 8 Maul and tier 8 Dooku, and on the same level with Mace Windu (I would still side with Windu against RotS Anakin though).

Except the novelization also states that Dooku stopped holding back once he realized Kenobi and Anakin could challenge him individually, that once Anakin wanted him dead he was dead, the rest was mere detail and Dooku couldn't do anything about it. Do people actually read the novel or...?

Vader wins.

Basically this.

OT-Knightfall Vader takes this handily.

@daisy_johnson: Knightfall Vader is far above Jedi Anakin who destroyed Dooku with the utmost of ease, far more easily than Yoda did who is comparable to Sidious. He tools them.

Hilarious.

What is?

@riddlerfan77:

The idea that somehow this 23 year old can defeat not one but two of the most powerful/skilled Sith in all of galactic history, I find amusing. Especially considering TPM Maul defeated a more powerful and refined version in ANH Vader.

@lord_tenebrous: Knightfall Vader>Pre Prime Vader who wasn't even ANH Vader level.

In any case I'm not copying and pasting what I said, just go over to the Battle Of The Titans thread and see my post there.

@riddlerfan77:

That makes little sense. What pre-prime iteration does he surpass? I'm only talking of ANH Vader, who Maul defeated. And ANH Vader is more powerful and a more refined duelist than KF Vader. Therefore, Maul solos or the team wins solidly every time.

Vader was not at ANH levels when TPM Maul surpassed him and KF Vader>ANH Vader.

Ventress choked Obi wan and Anakin at the same time so therefore Ventress >> Obi Wan and Anakin >> Maul because Obi Wan threeshotted Maul. Oh and Obi Wan >>>> Dooku because: AEYNTK Maul > Dooku

Ventress >>> Obi Wan > Anakin >> Maul > Dooku

@riddlerfan77:

Resurrection takes place just before ANH - they are talking about intercepting the rebels who captured the Death Star's plans.

That said yeah ANH Vader is often depicted as post-prime at the time the comic was written. And it was largely the mobility disadvantage, something that has been exploited by lesser opponents, that gave Maul the edge, a weakness KF Vader obviously doesn't have. Anyways that comic shouldn't even be taken seriously as it's an infinites.

@riddlerfan77:

Says who? The comic "Resurrection" occurred in the same year as ANH. It is in fact ANH Vader. A pre-prime Maul defeated a pre-prime Vader.

I'm afraid not - ANH Vader is more powerful than KF Vader, and a more refined duelist:

"Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful."

-- Beware The Sith

"As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side."

-- Force And Destiny Core Rulebook

"You are Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith, master of the Dark Side of the Force. Once a power for good in the galaxy, you are now feared as the ultimate evil. Obi-Wan Kenobi, a Jedi Knight, opened you to the power of the Force. You became his apprentice and learned the ways of the Jedi. But Kenobi's methods were slow and difficult, not quick and easy as you hoped they would be. So you gave yourself over to the Dark Side, allowing it to consume you so that you could be reborn in a more powerful image. Now you stand with the Emperor, bent on subjugating the entire galaxy to his New Order... Obi-Wan, enraged by betryal, battled Vader in an epic clash of lightsbers. Kenobi emerged victorious, sure that his one-time companion and pupil was destroyed. But the Force was strong in Vader, stronger than Kenobi knew, and somehow, Vader survived the terrible wounds he received. Vader survived, but not unscarred-his shattered body encased in life-supporting armor and a breath mask. In spite of these handicaps, Vader thrived. in fact, he found a way to turn these to his advantage. He had his breath mask crafted into a sinister black helmet and, donning a black cloak over his black armor, he became a figure out of nightmare. From the ashes of defeat, Vader emerged even stronger."

-- Lightsaber Dueling Pack: Darth Vader

"Over time Vader has advanced in his ability to manipulate the dark side of the Force, and has used it to sustain his own damaged body as well as to persuade opponents of his will. Under the Emperor's tutelage, Vader learns to kill with mere suggestion."

-- Star Wars Visual Dictionary

"This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge."

-- Jedi Battles

KF Vader may wield more raw power, but little more.

@lord_tenebrous:

Lucas's word trumps those sources though.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." ~ George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

And we have statements that stated that Vader and Kenobi were post-prime and inferior to their younger selves.

'We've actually never seen a real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half droid half man and young boys as learn from those old people.'' ~ Episode 1 fights featurette

@kilius:

Lucas didn't mean that Anakin was as strong as Sidious. He was referring to Potential, which he clarifies in the next sentence. "He wasn't what he was supposed to become." To say that it refers to actual power contradicts his other statements as well.

It also states that Vader & Ben Kenobi were flat-out weak, which isn't true. It's probably more or less a reference to the difference in dueling pace, since everyone in the OT fits that description.

@lord_tenebrous: You know all of those sources are contradicted by Anakin being a 9 right? Or did you conveniently forget the tiering system. Also didn't Vader win the fight against Maul? I could just be misremembering.

@arkhamasylum3:

Vader won but only by stabbing himself and killing Maul from behind. Before Maul had pierced his guard and had him on his knees. It doesn't really matter since Vader is seriously hindered by his mobility weakness, a weakness KF Vader doesn't share. That and Resurrection is an infinites comic and about as credible as Old Wounds and Nameless. Star Wars Tales are fantasy 'what if scenarios', regardless of what Chee says they were never meant to be taken seriously in the Star Wars canon.

@arkhamasylum3:

Nic Gillard is a very unreliable and non-credible source, and his statements contradict loads of other material including movie canon and George Lucas's statements. For those reasons, I don't use his tiering system nor do I regard it as valid.

Vader, via drawing on his self-hatred, stabbed through himself after being defeated, killing Maul who was gloating. So yes, he did emerge victorious, but Maul was his combative superior.

Ok thanks for the clarification.

@lord_tenebrous: I'll respond later.

@arkhamasylum3:

For starters, there are allegedly massive differences within these tiers, and yet Anakin who Gillard (ludicrously) places on par with Yoda and Sidious, is given the fight of his life by Obi-Wan who is a tier 8 and below other tier 8s like Dooku, Mace and Maul. So logically, by this alone, he should be able to ragdoll him like Maul and Dooku could. But he didn't, and because they were so closely matched, Obi-Wan was able to last long enough to capitalize on Vader's impatience and arrogance, and "defeat" him. Furthermore, if Anakin was on Yoda & Sidious's level, he should have been able to speedblitz Obi-Wan. After all, both Yoda and Sidious have each speedblitzed trios of the most skilled duelists in galactic history, all of whom being within Obi-Wan's level (Yoda defeated Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin & Depa Billaba, Sidious defeated Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto & Saesee Tiin). Not to mention, he wouldn't have been pressed by IG-102. He would have stomped all of these opponents. But he didn't, because he wasn't on par with the two most powerful beings in galactic history:

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."

-- The Complete Visual Dictionary

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known."

-- Vader: The Ultimate Guide

"To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen."

-- Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

"Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

-- The New Essential Chronology

"Only Yoda or Mace can compete with the Emperor."

-- George Lucas - The Making of Revenge of the Sith

"When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

-- Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

Not to mention, Anakin doesn't even have the feats to match or even near Sidious or Yoda.. Sidious is more powerful than people who have drained entire worlds, annihilated Dark Councils, ripped entire fleets out of gravity wells, etc.. Yoda is more powerful than people who have absorbed a planet-killing power with a fraction of their dying power, imprisoned DS nexuses, collapsed the insides of mountains, etc.. and Yoda himself has held up a mountain, casually ragdolled massive Seperatist transport shuttles that are far larger than Republic ones, etc.

Plus, it outright contradicts George Lucas who plainly states that as of ROTS the only guys that can even compete with Sidious are Mace and Yoda.

And, Grievous was defeated by Fisto, a tier 7, but Grievous legitimately hard-presses Dooku, who has little issues with Kenobi, who also defeated Grievous, and who is also a tier 8. But AOTC Kenobi is also a tier 7, yet he's nowhere near Grievous, and got clowned by Dooku, who is pressed by Grievous. And yet Grievous is defeated by Fisto who is another tier 7, and Fisto can be given difficulty by AOTC Kenobi. These mass gaps do not make sense when compared and especially when you move up into tier 8. I find little reason to take him any more serious than Daisy Riddley - he's an actor, the head choreographer, and a stuntman. But nothing more.

No, Vader emerged victorious like KF Vader, Quinlan Vos and TPM Kenobi. They were beaten or on the verge of being defeated, and cheapshotted their opponent. So yes, Vader won but Maul proved superior.

Maul isn't more powerful. He's more skilled, and a better fighter overall. And clearly his edge in combative prowess superseded Vader's edge in the Force, granting him the win. And to say that Maul won because of a mobility advantage is completely unfounded. Out of the plethora of hits Maul scored during that duel, each and every one (including the finishing strike) occurred when Maul was stationary. Now clearly Vader is more powerful than Maul. I'm not arguing that. But he is more skilled and a better fighter - and the difference in their skill was greater than the difference in the Force. Which is why Maul beat him.

And Sidious ragdolls a superior version of Maul. So clearly Vader is not Sidious tier. The only arguments for this are Gillard's faulty tiring system, and a load of baseless hyperbolic statements for Anakin.

The team would win a majority imo. Anakin can win some rounds where he takes one of them out early and turns it into a 1v1.

As for the canonity, Leland Chee stated that it was legitimate canon for it's time.

As to Gillard...People, seriously. Why argue this? It's on the SW website that he was using Lucas' leveling system that he created to make the prequels. Gilliard only contradicted himself when he was interviewed years after he finished working on SW movies altogether, and his contradictions were not really that big a deal. The meaning was still there, but most importantly is what was said when the prequels were released, both in interviews and as published on the official website and in the official newsletter at the time.

This was Lucas' tiering system and not Gillard's. Gilliard simply used the scale to choreograph the fight scenes.

First and Most Importantly

In Regards to the poorly used and misquoted Lucas quote that only Yoda and and Windu could compete with the Emperor:

"Only Yoda or Mace can compete with the Emperor."

-- George Lucas - The Making of Revenge of the Sith

^^^ Yes, Lucas did say that, but he immediately follows up with:

"If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

This is a pretty significant detail to leave out, especially when a person argues about a post-Mustafar Vader during a ROTS Vader discussion.

1. Lucas said that Yoda and Windu could compete with Sidious.
2. Lucas never said they could defeat Sidious.
3. Lucas said that ROTS Vader could've defeated Sidious.
4. Lucas stated this in the 2005 Rolling Stone interview and again in the 2011 ROTS bluray commentary.

LORD TENEBROUS, you are using your quotes wrong. You are mixing up characters; however, I do want to say upfront that it looks as though I am being hostile towards you. Please know that I am not. I've tried to edit this response to be more user friendly, but I'm having a difficult time. Please know this is my failing, and I apologize for it. There are other people I would like to address as well, but typically I can only focus on one reply at a time. Usually by the time I've addressed one person, I don't feel like continuing the conversation, so please know that I am not singling you out on purpose. I am replying to you specifically and first because of the misuse of your quote that I opened this reply with. If you did not purposely use Lucas's incomplete quote, then I apologize.

I'll post my replies in bold within your response:

@redheathen: Mustafar Vader is tough to rank. Gillard has straight up said he's still a 9. And as for his physiological state, yes he was attacking in anger. But by contrast sources state that both Obi-Wan and Anakin were reading and predicting each others moves. Which means Anakin was fighting intelligently he was just pissed.

Bare minimum he was a 9. There's no way around that.

I suggest giving this a read

As to the comics, wrong.

1. "Old Wounds" was never canon.
2. Nameless was canon, and not because Chee said so. Once Barlow became the editor, the series from that point forward became canon. IIRC, it was only four issues. Maybe five, but "Nameless" was published with Barlow as an editor.
3. "Resurrection" was made canon in its entirety, and not only that, the author confirmed the intention of the story saying it was actually Maul.

I agree with you about Vader is not the same as KFV, but I do not agree that Vader had mobility issues. There is more in old canon that states this wasn't an issue after Vader adapted to his suit. In old canon, what was last published or published the most took precedence. You can also see in canon that mobility is not an issue for him after he adapts.

Wrong. You need to read the scene in its entirety.

1. Dooku realized they weren't stunted clown-Jedi and that he had to get serious.
2. Dooku said that he didn't care what his master said if he wanted to live.

I agree overall with what you are saying, but pre-being maimed, it is clear that Vader/ ROTS Anakin was > everybody else. ~two Lucas interviews if we don't want to rely on Gillard, who says it as well. The tiering system was for combat and did not account for mental / emotional incapacity. This was most likely addressed with the comment about environmental factors and similar.

LOL ---------------------------------------------- Horrible but hilarious analogies.

Actually, yes. "Resurrection" Vader was ANH Vader. It takes place in 0 BBY. It doesn't matter though because we are discussing a canon charater as opposed to a Legends character. We can't really compare these two, especially considering the fact that we have two Lucas comments about ROTS Anakin being able to defeat Sidious. Creator quotes and movies always superseded non-creator quotes and non-movie media.

It's questionable about KFV > ANH. If we rely solely on the movie novelizations, ROTJ says that Vader was more powerful than he had ever been. Then again, PSV had yet to be created.

LOL! You forgot to add this:

AEYNTK Maul > Dooku > Ventress

Ventress >>> Obi Wan > Anakin >> Maul > Dooku > Ventress

I agree with you. I did not intend to say that Anakin was less than a nine. I think I do a poor job at explaining myself on most occasions, and I definitely do not disagree with you.

Thank you so much for the link! I've tried to have this discussion a few times, but my memory makes it difficult to recall sources. Plus, LOTL gives other sources I haven't read before. =)

Well

I'm glad SOMEBODY finally took the bait lol

Oh! I also want to say that I don't really think that it is exactly appropriate to use Mustafar Vader for scaling because two reasons:

1. He was fighting Kenobi (Gillard), and
2. His emotional/mental state (if we take Legends into account).

I think that he was still KFV and that if he had dueled anyone else, then the outcome would have been different. I do not think that he was no longer considered a tier 9 duelist. Gillard said that a character could still lose to an opponent who was less skilled based on the environment and other reasons I can't immediately recall. Again, I think it was that precise moment in time coupled with the fact he was dueling a man who had been like a brother as well as a father figure to him. A man who knew him very well. Lucas clearly stated that Anakin could have defeated Sidious at that time, and I don't think any of us would argue that Kenobi was similar to Sidious. Or I hope none of us will...

Is this a more reasonable answer in your opinion?

@redheathen:

Oh! I also want to say that I don't really think that it is exactly appropriate to use Mustafar Vader for scaling because two reasons:

He was fighting Kenobi (Gillard), and

It's perfectly fine to use him for scaling. He has a pretty clear placement. He is a 9. You can't get around that. Him fighting Kenobi only raises Obi-Wan.

His emotional/mental state (if we take Legends into account)

Honestly I'm seeing how many he was even under. We know from the statements saying both of them were predicting each others moves that he was fighting intelligently.

Some sources even state that Anakin was gone. The Ep III Visual Dicitonary states his love outright mutated to hatred and he showed no remorse. With the line-edited Stover novel calling him a rage fueled monster with nothing of Anakin left in him.

Finally even in sources like the Junior novel, it's stated that the despair and pain he did feel made him stronger.

Even the DLtRoDV quote doesn't really fly.

1. It's Sids musings. Not a factual quote

2. "Between worlds" could just as easily mean that Anakin had not yet learned to call on the dark side without falling into a full rage which left him vulnerable to overconfidence and arrogance. Which was how he actually lost

Gillard said that a character could still lose to an opponent who was less skilled based on the environment and other reasons I can't immediately recall.

No. Gillard said that battles between 9's are decided by environmental circumstance and other factors.

@lord_tenebrous: I'll respond to this nonsense later.