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#1 Edited by deactivated-5be183e26f3e9 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio
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  • Standard gear, standard abilities
  • Morals off
  • No prep, random encounter
  • Everyone is bloodlusted

Location:

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  • The team starts 20m apart from Vader
  • Count Dooku as of RotS and Darth Maul as of SoD
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#3 Edited by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Uh... Vader dies every single time.

He is not Yoda or Sidious level, that's stupid. Dooku or Maul alone can challenge Vader, together they beat him solidly.

The only conceivable way in which Vader gets some rounds is Force. Even then, unless this is TPM Maul, I find it unlikely.

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#4 Posted by Necromancer76 (3767 posts) - - Show Bio

Team. Knightfall Anakin is overrated.

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#5 Posted by bigsambino87 (1754 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmmm...this version of Vader is a 9 as a duelist. He was able to casually duel and defeat the temple Battlemaster, Cin Drallig, while choking another Jedi.

A slightly weaker version defeated Count Dooku with relative ease, once he used his anger. As Knightfall Vader, he is constantly fueled by rage.

But, I don't think he's so powerful that he could overcome both Dooku and Maul.

Team wins 7/10.

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#6 Posted by Th310rbit (74 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin takes a majority, based on his performance against Dooku. How much is debatable. I'd say 6-7/10

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#7 Posted by echostarlord117 (5526 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Edited by deactivated-5a20a68641bc7 (1969 posts) - - Show Bio

I favour Dooku and Maul here, but Vader could win by eliminating or at least incapacitating Maul early in the fight.

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#9 Edited by DesolatorStorm (384 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader could stomp either individually, but as a team, the odds are stacked against him. I'd give the team a low-mid majority victory as Vader has the possibility to edge out in the fight (but he'd be beaten within an inch of his life if he did so). Vader's biggest chance is to take out Maul quickly in sabers, however, this could be countered by Dooku and Maul if they cooperate in a hit and run tactic combo.

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#10 Posted by freesid_stf123 (529 posts) - - Show Bio

Knightfall Vader butchers them.

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#11 Posted by Emperordmb (1953 posts) - - Show Bio

Uh... Vader dies every single time.

He is not Yoda or Sidious level, that's stupid. Dooku or Maul alone can challenge Vader, together they beat him solidly.

The only conceivable way in which Vader gets some rounds is Force. Even then, unless this is TPM Maul, I find it unlikely.

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#12 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123:

How? Please don't come up with the BS "Knightfall Vader is Sidious/Yoda level", because feats easily disprove this.

Sabers is the area in which Vader loses harder.

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#13 Posted by Azronger (4302 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader decimates. Despite what other users have said, Yoda-level is exactly where he belongs. And I hold Lucas, Gillard, and offcial sources to be of bit higher credibility than the people here.

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#14 Edited by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio

The team, everytime.

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#15 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@frankenmidget: Team might take a duel, but maul's a definite weak link facing a yoda level combatant, especially on the force front.

If Anakin makes use to of the force(which as of knightfall and even on his mustafar fight with kenobi he did), he could prolly wreck maul somewhat similar to the way sids did. And then while Dooku may last a bit, he's always losing

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#16 Edited by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader, handily.

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#17 Posted by freesid_stf123 (529 posts) - - Show Bio

Knightfall Vader is basically the same as the pissed off Anakin that pounded Dooku to kingdom come. Maul's not powerful enough to change anything.

Please don't come up with the BS "Knightfall Vader is Sidious/Yoda level", because feats easily disprove this.

Feats don't disprove anything. When Anakin embraces the darkside, he is confirmed by Lucas and Gillard to be a level 9, along with Palps and Yoda. I hope you're not using Anakin's past feats when he was pre prime, and with his jedi morals as a way to judge Anakin at his best.

Sabers is the area in which Vader loses harder.

Vader decimates them in every relevant category.

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#18 Posted by Sirfizwhiz (1412 posts) - - Show Bio

Nothing overrated about Knightfall Anakin. He is more Plaguis level. Below Yoda and Sidious.

That said team wins due to numbers. Dooku was very powerful himself.

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#19 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizwhiz:

You don't think Anakin could just dispatch maul via tk?

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#20 Edited by Th310rbit (74 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku already struggled and was going to get stomped by an inferior version of Anakin, he spent great quantity of his force reserves just to parry Anakin's blows. Knightfall Anakin is a superior version of the same character.

Maul, as a duelist, is inferior to Dooku and as Force user, significantly inferior - he can't make up for that.

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#21 Posted by Erkan12 (8254 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Edited by Necromancer76 (3767 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizwhiz: Anakin cannot atomize people. Anakin cannot regenerate from Sidious-level lightning. Anakin cannot move as fast as lightning. Anakin cannot defeat Sarasu Taalon, someone who fought evenly with GM Luke evenly.

I could continue if you wish.

Knightfall Anakin is Revan/Caedus/Tenebrous level at best.

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#23 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123:

LOL, Vader doesn't decimate them.

Yoda has been confirmed to be the best swordsman ever on the Order's history, and Sidious made an absolutely mockery of Maul+Savage, a duo capable of defeating Skywalker; how is Knightfall Vader Yoda level, again?

More like the team decimates him in sabers. Zonakin is not the same as Knightfall Vader.

Maul is skilled enough to tip the scale in the team's favor, every single time.

Saying that Knightfall Vader would last a minute against Sidious would be far too generous for the character.

Team wins. 10/10, due to superior skill (collective, of course) and with Dooku there, Anakin is not ragdolling Maul. Even without Dooku there, Maul's not going to be instakilled. The team could even coordinate a Force Push with success, given how it happened during the Temple raid.

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#24 Posted by freesid_stf123 (529 posts) - - Show Bio

Yoda has been confirmed to be the best swordsman ever on the Order's history, and Sidious made an absolutely mockery of Maul+Savage, a duo capable of defeating Skywalker; how is Knightfall Vader Yoda level, again?

I already explained that Lucas and Gillard confirmed that Anakin when embracing the darkside is a level 9, on the level of yoda and Sidious. Did you even read my second paragraph?

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908

"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=946

"The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. 'Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is,' says Gillard. 'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html

In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.

Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/palpatine.asp

It's all there in black and white. Gillard put darkside Anakin in league with Palps and Yoda, and Lucas approved. I don't care if you think it's stupid. It's fact, and not even up for debate.

More like the team decimates him in sabers. Zonakin is not the same as Knightfall Vader

What are you talking about? Both "Zonakin" and Knightfall Vader are Anakin embracing the darkside and fighting at his best. It's that simple.

Team wins. 10/10, due to superior skill (collective, of course) and with Dooku there, Anakin is not ragdolling Maul. Even without Dooku there, Maul's not going to be instakilled. The team could even coordinate a Force Push with success, given how it happened during the Temple raid.

Team dies. Anakin embracing the darkside and fighting at his best made Dooku look like an absolute joke, and he would do even worse to Maul. Their combined might will perhaps prevent them from being absolutely stomped, but that's it. The only chance that they have is if, and I mean IF Dooku somehow manages to say something that off balances Anakin before he loses his head, in which case then team would win.

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#25 Edited by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123 said:

I already explained that Lucas and Gillard confirmed that Anakin when embracing the darkside is a level 9,

I know very well ROTS Anakin is a level nine. Great. Does that make him equal to Yoda or Sidious? Not in the slightest. There can be enormous gaps within tiers, per Gillard.

Dooku and Maul are eight, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves.

Nick Gillard

Which, honestly, should apply here.

Sidious absolutely humiliated a fantastic duo, Darth Maul and Savage Opress. Vader does not have the feats to even stalemate Maul and Opress.

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Sidious one-shotted Mother Talzin, a very good duelist capable of fighting Mace Windu to a standstill in roughly a minute of fighting.

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Sidious is unbeatable.

His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him.

Theforce.net

Per Filoni, absolutely no one can even compete with Sidious.

Why no one can compete with this guy.

Dave Filoni

Sidious owned Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto.

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Yoda stalemated this guy. They're solidly above Knightfall Vader per feats, and Vader being in tier 9 does not put him an equal to Yoda or Sidious, who would win solidly and thoroughly against but not decimate this duo.

It's all there in black and white. Gillard put darkside Anakin in league with Palps and Yoda,

Being on the same tier =/= being equal.

I don't care if you think it's stupid.

Vader=Sidious is stupid.

It's fact,

That Vader=Sidious? Hell no.

Both "Zonakin" and Knightfall Vader are Anakin embracing the darkside and fighting at his best.

Not really. There is a serious difference. Knightfall Vader is just Vader fighting with the dark side at his pre-suit prime; Zonakin is an Anakin with a one-time super powerful amp he can not get at will. Zonakin>Knightfall Vader. Anakin can't enter the Zone like that. It's a circumstancial thing. There are no circumstances in this fight. This is not Zonakin unless specified.

Vader dies.

Fixed.

Anakin embracing the darkside and fighting at his best made Dooku look like an absolute joke,

That's an Amped Anakin who's superior to Knightfall Vader. Prior to the rage amp, Anakin was winning, yes, but Dooku was expertly holding his own, and Skywalker had a challenge.

and he would do even worse to Maul.

Yes, but the team's combined might negate this. Also, he'd only do slightly worse to Maul, if at all given Maul doesn't have the kinetic power weakness. Dooku and Maul can seriously challenge and give grief to ROTS Vader without the "Zone" or whatever. Together, they execute Vader in a not so fair fight. Put Rebels Maul and Jedi Master Dooku, becomes a better fight.

Their combined might will perhaps prevent them from being absolutely stomped, but that's it.

LOL.

Let me rephrase this: their combined might completely humiliates Vader's own and gets his head separated from his body in under 90 seconds.

he only chance that they have is if, and I mean IF Dooku somehow manages to say something that off balances Anakin

That would be a curbstomp in favor of the team. This match is lopsided enough... don't make it worse for Vader.

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#26 Edited by Kilius (1537 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader should have a massive strength advantage and no this is not hyperbole. At the risk of derailing this thread, I just going to say Maul and Dooku have similar levels of strength. Using Sidious as a yardstick, we can see that Maul's strength isn't greater than Dooku's. Sidious has pushed back the combined strength of Maul and Savage. Shadow Conspiracy noted Sidious was strained in the process, but it's still demonstrates a notable strength gap. Yoda has not only matched Sidious in blade-locks, but has actually broken them, albeit with enormous strain. Yoda is stronger than Sidious based on this. Dooku has parried potentially lethal strikes from Yoda and contended with him in blade-locks; yes Dooku lost the blade-locks, but it still took considerable effort on Yoda's part, suggesting Dooku isn't too far behind Yoda in terms of strength. Jedi Knight Anakin, before embracing the Darkside was capable of straining Dooku to an enormous extent, with the force of his blows. Jedi Knight Anakin is stronger than Yoda/Sidious. Can you imagine how much more strength he has after fully embracing the Darkside? Probably enough to use Djem So one handed against one of the Orders finest lightsaber instructors(Cin Drallig).

.

As for the end result? It could go either way. In the short term I think the team would have a chance in outmaneuvering him, considering Djem Sos' mobility weakness. In the long run, assuming a standstill, Vaders' Djem So would eventually take it's toll on the team's stamina. Vader can also potentially temporally KO one with a well timed Force push, as Sidious did to Maul and finish off the other.

@thesithmaster said: Not really. There is a serious difference. Knightfall Vader is just Vader fighting with the dark side at his pre-suit prime; Zonakin is an Anakin with a one-time super powerful amp he can not get at will. Zonakin>Knightfall Vader. Anakin can't enter the Zone like that. It's a circumstancial thing. There are no circumstances in this fight. This is not Zonakin unless specified.

Why would you assume a serious difference? "Zonakin" is basically Anakin embracing the Darkside. Him letting the hate and furry he was holding back flow freely. After his turn to the Sith he's basically doing just that all the time.

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#27 Posted by freesid_stf123 (529 posts) - - Show Bio

I know very well ROTS Anakin is a level nine. Great. Does that make him equal to Yoda or Sidious? Not in the slightest. There can be enormous gaps within tiers, per Gillard.

Where in my previous posts did I ever say that they were equals? That's right. I never did, and if you are going to start putting words in my mouth, then I have no interest in continuing this discussion because I have no patience to deal with crap like that.

Yoda stalemated this guy. They're solidly above Knightfall Vader per feats, and Vader being in tier 9 does not put him an equal to Yoda or Sidious, who would win solidly and thoroughly against but not decimate this duo.

Funnily enough, here's what Lucas says regarding a non hindered presuit vader:

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Source: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-20050602

So, as per lucas, pre suit Vader, when he wasn't hindered, was actually as strong as Palpatine, until he got butchered by kenobi, and I don't need to explain why he isn't referring to potential here. Also, either palps or yoda butcher this duo. Them being level 9s makes them 30 times more powerful than dooku or maul, seeing as how the difference between levels is like that of a richter scale, and maul and dooku are not overcoming a gap that large.

Not really. There is a serious difference. Knightfall Vader is just Vader fighting with the dark side at his pre-suit prime; Zonakin is an Anakin with a one-time super powerful amp he can not get at will. Zonakin>Knightfall Vader. Anakin can't enter the Zone like that. It's a circumstancial thing. There are no circumstances in this fight. This is not Zonakin unless specified.

I don't who started that "Zone" stuff, but it's not a thing. It's literally Anakin tapping into his rage and unleashing his fury and no longer holding back. That's it. It's obvious in all the material that describes the fight between the too. Knightfall Vader is the same damn thing, except it didn't take anybody taunting him to tap into his rage.

Yes, but the team's combined might negate this. Also, he'd only do slightly worse to Maul, if at all given Maul doesn't have the kinetic power weakness. Dooku and Maul can seriously challenge and give grief to ROTS Vader without the "Zone" or whatever. Together, they execute Vader in a not so fair fight. Put Rebels Maul and Jedi Master Dooku, becomes a better fight.

Knightfall Vader being a level 9, and thus about 30 times stronger than either, means they are not challenging him in any way whatsoever. Their combined might is not overcoming a gap that large, especially to the point that they butcher him. Rebels Maul and Jedi Dooku is even more of a stomp than it already is.

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#28 Edited by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123:

Them being level 9s makes them 30 times more powerful than dooku or maul, seeing as how the difference between levels is like that of a richter scale, and maul and dooku are not overcoming a gap that large.

Can we please not take that crap literally? Yoda has held his own vs yoda so the whole 30 times thing is hyperbole and even taking it literally assumes that dooku is a low 8, something which is nonsensical given he held his own vs yoda, a 9

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#29 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesithmaster:

I know very well ROTS Anakin is a level nine. Great. Does that make him equal to Yoda or Sidious? Not in the slightest. There can be enormous gaps within tiers, per Gillard.

Actually, per gillard, within tier 9 the gaps are marginal with "style" and "enviroment" becoming decisive factors. Tier 9's are all fairly close to each other.

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#30 Posted by freesid_stf123 (529 posts) - - Show Bio

Can we please not take that crap literally? Yoda has held his own vs yoda so the whole 30 times thing is hyperbole and even taking it literally assumes that dooku is a low 8, something which is nonsensical given he held his own vs yoda, a 9

No, that is exactly what the difference in levels is. That's how the richter scale works, and that is how gillard organized his levels for lightsaber skill. You can look up the richter scale for yourself and see it.

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#31 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123: the system is similar to the ritcher scale in that there's a massive difference in tiers, but its not exactly the ritcher system with there being a 30 times difference. Regardless that's low 8's, dooku has held his own vs yoda and would be a high 8 anyway.

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#32 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by freesid_stf123 (529 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123: the system is similar to the ritcher scale in that there's a massive difference in tiers, but its not exactly the ritcher system with there being a 30 times difference.

I'll post it again. He literally says that the difference between levels is like that of a richter scale.

"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=946

Nowhere does he imply that there is a difference between the two, so the 30 times difference is fair game.

Regardless that's low 8's, dooku has held his own vs yoda and would be a high 8 anyway.

No, it's 8s and 9s period. As for Dooku holding his own against the little green guy, at the time the movies were made, Gillard to my knowledge never stated what the Count was, so for all we know Dooku could have been intended to be a borderline 9 or something like that when they made the movies. Sure, Gillard called him a plain 8 much later, but he also called Mace an 8 bordering 9, as opposed to the time the movies were made, where he had him a straight up 9, and he even contradicted himself on whether Anakin as of Attack of the Clones was a 5 or 7. Anyways, it doesn't really matter what the Count is, because he got shitstomped by Anakin when he drew on his rage. Knightfall Vader is basically the same as what people keep referring to as "Zonakin", and the gap between Vader and Dooku is much too large for Maul to overcome. Team dies.

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#34 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123:

I'll post it again. He literally says that the difference between levels is like that of a richter scale.

"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."

He says its like a richer scale in that theres an enormous difference between tier 8 and tier 9. This doesn't mean a fighter in tier 8 is necessarily enormously behind a fighter in tier 9 assuming its a high 8 like dooku. And no, Anakin never "shitstomped" dooku. He very decisively beat him when tapping into his anger with the aid of a form advantage and of dooku having alrealdy fought both Anakin and Kenobi prior which left him exhausted. Is Knightfall Anakin decisively>Dooku, yea, can he "shitstomp" him? no

@kbroskywalker:

Really? When did he say that?

Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by h. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.

Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/palpatine.asp

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#35 Posted by freesid_stf123 (529 posts) - - Show Bio

He says its like a richer scale in that theres an enormous difference between tier 8 and tier 9. This doesn't mean a fighter in tier 8 is necessarily enormously behind a fighter in tier 9 assuming its a high 8 like dooku.

I already addressed this above.

And no, Anakin never "shitstomped" dooku.

uhh, yea he did. He literally made him look like a joke. He straight up murked him in the movie, and the fight's even worse in the novel.

This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.

Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

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If that's not a stomp, I don't know what is; I mean, after tapping into his rage he cut his hands off in a little over 10 seconds.

He very decisively beat him when tapping into his anger with the aid of a form advantage and of dooku having alrealdy fought both Anakin and Kenobi prior which left him exhausted.

This is false. After he incapacitated Kenobi, he drew on the force and all his exhaustion went away.

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

He lifted his blade, and beckoned.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

He even beckoned for Anakin to leap down from the balcony and fight him. He was fresh to go.

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#36 Posted by DesolatorStorm (384 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123:

I'll post it again. He literally says that the difference between levels is like that of a richter scale.

"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."

He says its like a richer scale in that theres an enormous difference between tier 8 and tier 9. This doesn't mean a fighter in tier 8 is necessarily enormously behind a fighter in tier 9 assuming its a high 8 like dooku. And no, Anakin never "shitstomped" dooku. He very decisively beat him when tapping into his anger with the aid of a form advantage and of dooku having alrealdy fought both Anakin and Kenobi prior which left him exhausted. Is Knightfall Anakin decisively>Dooku, yea, can he "shitstomp" him? no

@kbroskywalker:

Really? When did he say that?

Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by h. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.

Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/palpatine.asp

I was thinking about staying out of this specific discussion, but I feel I must address some points. Pre-rage Anakin in the novel was stated to become stronger mid-fight, and it was specifically stated that Dooku had to expand as much force energy as he did to KO Kenobi to deal with each single one of Anakin's blows, and prior to the 1v1, that was, by far, the greatest effort he exerted in the fight, making everything else seem non-taxing. And yes, this was not "zonakin." This statement about Anakin VS Dooku happened before the line "you have hate, you have anger, but you don't use them." The stamina issues the first stage of the fight gave Dooku is neligible to nonexistent (considering he recharges his reserves mid fight). Either way, the fact that Anakin not actively using the darkside was able to push Dooku into an inefficient battle so far goes to show that when actively tapping into the darkside, he's way above Dooku.

If we're going by a movie-only cannon, well then, there's nothing establishing how much, or how little Dooku exerted himself in the first stage of the duel. It all becomes subjective.

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#37 Edited by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123 said:

So, as per lucas, pre suit Vader, when he wasn't hindered, was actually as strong as Palpatine

In the Force? Of course he's as strong as Palpatine! He's the goddamn Chosen One who can become 200% of Palpatine in full potential, and at full potential dominated the Ones!

Potential =/= actualized power. At the time, Anakin was not as powerful as Palpatine. Strong? As in Force strength? Why, yes. Powerful? Nope.

Sidious ragdolled Maul, a very capable Force wielder capable of dragging shuttles while seriously injured, collapsing tunnels and casually dominating Obi-Wan. While Vader is far ahead of Maul in the Force, he's not gonna stomp the Zabrak like that.

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While toying, Sidious also manipulated Maul and Savage. Savage is a very potent Force wielder capable of pushing shuttles while massively pre-prime, and breaking cells made of super-resistent Mandalorian iron.

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Just a reminder of what Maul and Savage can do when they combine their power:

Blow away a heavily armored army in the 120+ range, along with a Padawan.
Blow away a heavily armored army in the 120+ range, along with a Padawan.

Sidious also overpowered Yoda in Force struggles. Vader can, at best, challenge Yoda in a Force bout, given Yoda is the most powerful Jedi and is near equal to Sidious.

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While in the movie it may seem that Sidious caught Yoda off guard or simply moved faster than him, in the novel, Yoda was outright overpowered.

In the Senate Arena, lightning forked from the hands of a Sith, and bent away from the gesture of a Jedi to shock Redrobes into unconsciousness. Then there were only the two of them. Their clash transcended the personal; when new lightning blazed, it was not Palpatine burning Yoda with his hate, it was the Lord of all Sith scorching the Master of all Jedi into a smoldering huddle of clothing and green flesh.

Revenge of the Sith novel

While in the movie Yoda somehow came from solidly losing to stalemating, in the novel he was once again outright overpowered.

The end came with astonishing suddenness. The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightning into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength. The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow—

Half a second too slow.

The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell.

He fell a long way.

Revenge of the Sith novel

Yoda is the most powerful Jedi and Lightsider of all history (yes, including Anakin).

Most powerful lightsider:

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

Revenge of the Sith novel

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Sidious also stalemated Yoda in sabers.

Most skilled Jedi:

As the most skilled and experienced Jedi Master in the Temple, Yoda could hide those inconvenient feelings from everyone who knew him, but they were there.

Clone Wars Gambit: Siege

Greatest duelist:

Yoda had mastered the exceptional art of Form IV lightsabre combat, and was widely acknowledged as the greatest lightsaber duellist in the Jedi Order.

Star Wars: Fact Files

Second to none:

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Unequaled skill:

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a great warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

Lightsabers: A Guide To Weapons of the Force

Greatest saber master:

Master Yoda is reputed to be the greatest lightsaber master ever.

Star Wars: The Approaching Storm

Yoda's Force ability is incomparable:

Despite his diminutive size and frailty, Yoda’s incomparable ability to summon the power of the Force enabled him to greatly enhance his agility and speed.

Star Wars: Fact Files

Sidious believes Yoda to be the greatest Jedi:

Palpatine enjoyed Yoda's company, because the longer he sat smiling benignly at Yoda, and the longer the greatest Jedi Master failed to recognize Palpatine for what he was, the more satisfying the situation became.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars novel

Dooku also believes Yoda to be the greatest:

Another step had been taken toward his goal - to surpass Yoda as the greatest Jedi ever.

Legacy of the Jedi

Most powerful Jedi:

Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.

Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda

Yoda was the oldest and most powerful Jedi in the order.

Star Wars: The Sith Wars

Meet Yoda. He is the most powerful Jedi.

Star Wars: Blast Off!

Not only per other characters, but per outside sources, Yoda is the greatest Jedi:

The greatest Jedi: Yoda, defender of the galaxy, master of the Force, and the greatest Jedi who had ever lived.

Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda

Yoda is, along with Sidious, the best Force wielder as of ROTS:

On Coruscant, Yoda and the Emperor meet in the ultimate confrontation between the galaxy's most powerful masters of the Force.

Hasbro: Yoda action figure

Yoda has accolades placing him above Knightfall Vader, so does Sidious.

Heck, Yoda has lifted a mountain. Sidious is factually more powerful than Yoda.

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Sidious also effortlessly dominated Darth Tyranus, a super powerful Force wielder capable of collapsing caves, casually dominating Ventress, casually dominating Obi-Wan, and incapping Sora Bulq via Force Lightning that killed multiple Nightbrothers (Zabraks are tough) and killed multiple Kiffar soldiers. Dooku also casually dominated Quinlan Vos, who in turn Gripped Aayla.

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Force-wise, Sidious and Yoda are solidly above Anakin. Of course, Anakin COULDsurpass them, but only IFhe fulfilled his potential- which he didn't come close to doing, even as of Operation Knightfall.

Also, either palps or yoda butcher this duo.

They would win every single time, yes- but not absolutely butcher them. The duo can give somewhat of a test.

Them being level 9s makes them 30 times more powerful than dooku or maul,

LOL no. Based off many fights we have seen, this is most definitely untrue.

Yoda, a tier 9, isn't 30x more powerful than Dooku given the fact Dooku lasted forty seconds.

Anakin, a tier 9, isn't 30x more powerful than Dooku given how it wasn't a stomp until Anakin got a circumstancial, one-time rage amp and, per Starwars.com, caught Dooku off guard with the strength boost given by the rage amp.

Anakin, a tier 9, isn't 30x more powerful than Obi-Wan.

TPM Maul, a tier 8, isn't 30x more powerful than TPM Kenobi, a tier 7, given that Kenobi lasted forty seconds.

Heck, Sidious, a tier 9, couldn't one-shot a tier 7, Kit Fisto. This should be impossible, given that the tier 9 should be 60x more powerful than the tier 7.

and maul and dooku are not overcoming a gap that large.

They don't need to.

I don't who started that "Zone" stuff, but it's not a thing.

Yes it is. Knightfall Vader didn't get a one-time rage amp as far as I know. Zonakin>Knightfall Vader.

It's literally Anakin getting a one-time rage amp that he did not get during operation Knightfall.

Fixed.

Knightfall Vader is the same damn thing,

No, it isn't. If it was, Vader wouldn't be Force Pushed by a featless Cin Drallig, or have Cin Drallig defend his Force Push, or have Shaak Ti survive an engagement with him. Those two should be high tier 7/low tier 8. There- more things that prove that the difference between tiers is not as gigantic as you make it out to be.

Knightfall Vader being a level 9, and thus about 30 times stronger than either,

Nope.

means they are not challenging him in any way whatsoever.

Well, Vader will be desperately parrying the 90- seconds the fight will last, so it will be much more than a challenge. It will be his humiliation; his thorough defeat; his execution.

Rebels Maul and Jedi Dooku is even more of a stomp than it already is.

No, it actually makes for an interesting fight. The fight we've been given is too much of a win for the team. If the team is nerfed to the damaged Twin Suns Rebels Maul+Jedi Master Dooku, then it becomes a good fight.

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#38 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2556 posts) - - Show Bio

This is basically Zonakin vs Dooku and a weaker version of Obi Wan. I don't see why he doesn't take it every time.

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#39 Posted by Helloman (27257 posts) - - Show Bio

The team wins.

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#40 Edited by freesid_stf123 (529 posts) - - Show Bio

In the Force? Of course he's as strong as Palpatine! He's the goddamn Chosen One who can become 200% of Palpatine in full potential, and at full potential dominated the Ones!

Potential =/= actualized power. At the time, Anakin was not as powerful as Palpatine. Strong? As in Force strength? Why, yes. Powerful? Nope.

Ok, now you're not making any sense here. You start off agreeing with me that he was as strong as Palpatine, and then you're basically telling me that he wasn't, because he says the word strong, and not power? What do you think he meant? It's clear he was talking about power.

I'm well aware of Palpatine and Yoda's feats and accolades. None of that contradicts Anakin when drawing on the darkside being on their level, per lucas and Gillard, whose word prevails. All you have shown me is that Palps and Yoda have more feats than Darkside Anakin, and that they would cream Jedi morals on Anakin. By Word of God, Anakin embracing the darkside is in Yoda and Palpatine's class of fighters. There's nothing to debate there.

Them being level 9s makes them 30 times more powerful than dooku or maul,

LOL no. Based off many fights we have seen, this is most definitely untrue.

Yoda, a tier 9, isn't 30x more powerful than Dooku given the fact Dooku lasted forty seconds.

Read my reply to Kbro, post #33, in regards to Dooku standing his ground against Yoda.

Anakin, a tier 9, isn't 30x more powerful than Dooku given how it wasn't a stomp until Anakin got a circumstancial, one-time rage amp and, per Starwars.com, caught Dooku off guard with the strength boost given by the rage amp.

Dooku being caught off gaurd is irrelevant. The novel made it perfectly clear that the moment Anakin wanted Dooku dead, he was gonna die, and there wasn't anything the count would be able to do about it. The moment he wanted him dead, he was dead, and the rest was mere detail.

Anakin, a tier 9, isn't 30x more powerful than Obi-Wan.

Dooku-stomper Anakin? the hell he isn't.

TPM Maul, a tier 8, isn't 30x more powerful than TPM Kenobi, a tier 7, given that Kenobi lasted forty seconds.

Heck, Sidious, a tier 9, couldn't one-shot a tier 7, Kit Fisto. This should be impossible, given that the tier 9 should be 60x more powerful than the tier 7.

Maul? who was driving back Kenobi when Kenobi was fighting at a much higher level than usual? Maul, who was practically toying with both Quigon and Kenobi combined on Naboo?

Sidious? who killed Fisto in about 3 swings, while Fisto had help from another level 9 fighter in Windu?

And yes, Windu is a 9.

As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various Star Wars swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine [out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight—he's moved up—Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you right past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age—not as young as Anakin. That young, the dark side is just too tempting."

--Taken from The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

Plus, even if I were to discard the 30 times difference in magnitude and not take it literally, the fact remains that because the levels are based on a richter scale, no level 8 is standing up to a level 9 that is seriously trying to defeat them. Same goes for an 8 vs 7, and so on.

They don't need to.

That's exactly what they're going to have to do, especially if they are going to defeat him solidly as you claim.

Yes it is. Knightfall Vader didn't get a one-time rage amp as far as I know. Zonakin>Knightfall Vader.

You have yet to prove why Anakin was fighting at a higher level aboard the Invisible Hand vs Operation knightfall. In both cases, Anakin is embracing the dark side and unleashing his rage. The fact that Jedi Anakin needed extra motivation from palps to embrace his rage, vs operation Knightfall, where he is embracing the darkside as Darth Vader and no longer holding back his fury, doesn't mean he was fighting at a higher level.

No, it isn't. If it was, Vader wouldn't be Force Pushed by a featless Cin Drallig,

Where are you getting this from? because I'm not seeing anything of the sort. All I see is Vader cutting Drallig down while killing his students at the same time.

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"Stone-faced, Obi-Wan watched younglings run into the room, fleeing a storm of blasterfire; he watched Cin Drallig and a pair of teenage Padawans-was that Whie, the boy Yoda had brought to Vjun?-backing into the scene, blades whirling, cutting down the advancing clone troopers with deflected bolts. He watched a lightsaber blade flick into the shot, cutting down first one Padawan, then the other. He watched the brisk stride of a caped figure who hacked through Drallig's shoulder, then stood aside as the old Troll fell dying to let the rest of the clones blast the children to shreds."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Drallig tried to fend off Vader with the help of two of his students, Whie and Bene, but Vader cut them down.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

When Darth Vader and his clone troopers attacked the Jedi Temple the night of Order 66, Vader choked Bene with one hand whilst he dueled Drallig with the other.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

or have Shaak Ti survive an engagement with him. Those two should be high tier 7/low tier 8. There- more things that prove that the difference between tiers is not as gigantic as you make it out to be.

I'm guessing you're referring to these:

When Anakin Skywalker led an attack on the Jedi Temple, many believed that he had killed Shaak Ti.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Shaak Ti was at the Jedi Temple when Vader attacked, and narrowly escaped death at the hands of the immensely more powerful Sith Lord.

Star Wars Vehicle Collection #51

So what that shows is that Shaak can't even stand up to Vader and barely escapes with her life when the temple is in need. That's supposed to prove that the difference in between tiers is not that massive?

You have yet to give me a good reason why the duo doesn't get decimated everytime, much less why the team butchers him.

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#41 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius:

I'm not going to counter your entire post, but I'm only going to address one thing that absolutely revolted me:

Maul's strength isn't greater than Dooku's.

Yes, it is. By a rather large margin. Your ABC Logic won't work. Maul>=Anakin in strength, Sidious=Yoda, Sidious/Yoda>Anakin by a large margin.

I'm going to rain in Maul's best strength feats, that are considerably better than anything Dooku has to offer:

Shatters a Rodian's lower spine with his elbow

The fight hadn't lasted long, and only when the blade-bearer had accidentally bumped into him had Maul glanced up long enough to drive an elbow upward and shatter the Rodian's lower spine.

Maul: Lockdown

Wrecks mercenaries (Maul's only fifteen here; he's miles away from his prime).

Leaving the swordplay to the masked Dathomiri, Maul tore into the Vollick's rear guard with fists and feet, bruising bodies and breaking bones as he fought his way to the warlord himself.

Restraint

Completely mauls a Yuuzhan Vong warrior (the Yuuzhan Vong race later gave Luke and his Jedi Order a hell of a fight and a nasty war).

Both hands shot out and grabbed the creature by its throat, hoisting it up over his head and squeezing until he felt the deep tendons of its neck beginning to give and weaken in his grip. There was a wet, muffled click from somewhere inside the thing's chest and a sudden glut of warm, thick, sticky fluid began spurting up from its throat. Blood. Jet black,

He tightened his grip, and the screaming got louder, becoming a broken, birdlike squawk. More blood leapt up, inky black and viscous, and started pouring from its mouth and eye sockets. Enough. Executing a perfectly balanced spin, Maul swung the creature around and slammed it to the floor with a sharp clang, connecting hard enough that he felt the steel plates reverberate under his feet. The thing's head drooped on its broken neck.

Maul: Lockdown

Absolutely destroys a Wampa, pulverizing its mandible, shattering skull bones, punching through its ribs, and crushing its heart.

Maul sprang straight upward into it,driving his horned head into the thing's lower jaw, pulverizing its mandible and slamming needle-sharp bone fragments into its cranial vault. Maul could actually feel the joints and fissures shattering inside the Wampa's skull and knew intuitively that he'd dealt it a killing blow.

(...)

Hooking his hands into claws, he plunged them through its fur, ripping the soft tissue of its torso... Shoving his hands deeper, he sank both arms into the elbow, beneath its rib cage into its thoracic cavity, groping until he found what was looking for- the slick, pulsating mass of its heart. Maul grabbed it, laced his finger together, and squeezed. The wampa's heart burst between his fingers like a dense and fibrous flower.

Maul: Lockdown

Breaks the leg of a Drovian. Drovians are pretty big creatures.

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Breaks through durasteel droids.

Maul spun on his right foot and shot his left leg out in a powerful side kick, slamming his boot into the droid's armored chest, stoppingit cold.

Maul dropped, hooked his left foot around the back of the droid's ankle, and pulled as he kicked hard at the droid's thigh with the other foot. The droid fell backwards, unable to maintain its balance, and hit the floor. Maul sprang up, did a front flip, and came down with both boot heels driving into the droid's head.The metal skull crunched and collapsed inward.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Breaks a person's neck, then kicks through their bodyguard's chest.

Snarling, he whirled, moving faster than human eyes could follow, breaking Magneta's neck with the edge of his hand, then spinning again to send his stiffened right foot into the chest of the bodyguard as he rushed into the room.

End Game

Breaks durasteel binders that literally dug into his flesh.

Behind his back, Maul flexed his wrists. The durasteel binders dug into his flesh, but the Sith Lord felt no pain. With a jerk, Maul pulled his arms apart. The binders shattered, scattering bits of durasteel all over the cell's filthy floor.

Episode I Adventures: Darth Maul

Slams a Barabel into the ground and kills it. Barabels are pretty big creatures.

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Rips off the skull of a Deathspine varactly, a four-meter tall lizard.

Jagannath had managed to grip the varactyl by its crest and wrenched its armorplated skull hard to the right, slamming it directly into one of the steam pipes along the far wall.

(...)

In front of him, Jagannath hadtaken hold of the varactyl's boiled skull. With a final jerk, he snapped it completely free from its neck and yanked it upward.

Maul: Lockdown

NOTE: By TPM, Maul had not yet reached his prime. All these feats were achieved before TPM. Which means that a pre-prime Maul in TPM Maul can replicate these feats, and surpass them.

By TPM, Maul physically dominated Kenobi:

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Discarding the lesser half of his severed weapon, he counter attacked swiftly, striking at Obi-Wan with enough force that he knocked the young Jedi sideways and off balance. Quickly he struck him again, harder still, and this time Obi-Wan lost his footing completely and tumbled over the edge of the pit, his lightsaber flying from his hand.

The Phantom Menace novel

A perfect replica of TPM Maul kicked+punched ANH Vader.

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TCW Maul has improved in every relevant combative area, so yeah, he can surpass these feats. He's considerably stronger than Dooku.

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#42 Posted by Kilius (1537 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesithmaster said: Your ABC Logic won't work

It's not ABC logic when you're comparing something as raw as strength.

@thesithmaster said: Maul>=Anakin in strength

Anakin as per the ROTS novel is > Yoda in terms of strength.

This is Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful Jedi of his generation, perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. - ROTS novel

Yoda > Sidious > Maul. Anakin is stronger than Maul.

@thesithmaster said: Sidious=Yoda

There're close but Yoda's actually beaten Sidious in blade-locks; twice. Yoda > Sidious.

@thesithmaster said: Sidious/Yoda>Anakin by a large margin

Yoda couldn't strain Dooku to the same extent as Anakin did. Yoda beat him in the blade-locks but with strain. That's equivalent to Sidious pushing back Maul and Savage with strain.

@thesithmaster said: I'm going to rain in Maul's best strength feats, that are considerably better than anything Dooku has to offer:

There're all excellent feats, but I'd like to point out that neither Yoda nor Sidious have a high resume of strength feats either, yet both are considered to be stronger than Maul. Dooku's style is based on elegance and precision so of course he's not going to have a large number of strength feats as a brawl fighter like Maul. But he can deliver on his strength when he needs too. He physically dominated an enraged Vos, whos rage was described as "white hot". He has no difficulty in repelling Grievous's power strikes, and before you say that "Grievous is a speed based fighter", let me point out that Grievous has disarmed Shaak Ti and Ki Adi Mundi with is strength, disarmed Magnaguards in training, has been chastised by Dooku for his use of "Power Moves" and Mace himself noted that his strikes were "as forceful as any he was ever forced to counter" Grievous utilizes overwhelming speed AND strength. There is literally no source that suggests that Grievous only uses his speed.

Anyways Dooku strain Yoda in their blade-locks is equivalent to Maul straining Sidious. Grievous is at least as strong as Maul and Dooku had no trouble meeting his strength. Anakin is simple stronger than Yoda and Sidious based on statements and superior strength showings against Dooku.

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#43 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123 said:

Ok, now you're not making any sense here.

Actually, I am.

You start off agreeing with me that he was as strong as Palpatine,

Of course. He is much stronger than Palpatine in the Force. "In the Force." As in, connection to the Force.

and then you're basically telling me that he wasn't, because he says the word strong, and not power?

Exactly! Anakin isn't as powerful as Palpatine; in a fight of Force powers, Sidious would win solidly. But Anakin, at the time, had the potential to surpass Sidious by miles. Only, he didn't because Mustafar, which limited him to be 80% of Sidious or so.

What do you think he meant

Strength in the Force.

I'm well aware of Palpatine and Yoda's feats and accolades.

Well, it seems to me as if you aren't, because anyone with that knowledge should know that Anakin is not equal, near equal to Yoda/Sidious, not on their paygrade, and not exactly on their level.

None of that contradicts Anakin when drawing on the darkside being on their level,

Well, Yoda's mountain TK feat is above anything Anakin has to show, and his contention with Sidious too.

To put Sidious>Vader at rest, and Vader not being on his actual level (he is not far off, but not on the level) once and for all:

Sidious is the most powerful being in the galaxy, and Talzin can only become that if she takes his spot:

By restoring Maul's powers, Talzin hoped to defeat Sidious and become the most powerful being in the galaxy.

Mother Talzin Databank, Starwars.com

Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history. That is sufficient ground to put him above Knightfall Vader, a Sith Lord, once and for all.

Finally- the Emperor- who should be fighting to save the Republic- is revealed as the most powerful and menacing Sith of all!

The Sith (Revenge of the Sith Collection, 2005)

Yoda was a master at masking his emotions, but not even he could hide them from the greatest Sith Lord ever known.

The Clone Wars: Wild Space

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

The New Essential Cronology

With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1

Also, the most powerful Dark Side practitioner, putting him above Vader, if doubts remain.

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Vader is really good, he's above most, but he's just not on Yoda or Sidious' tier. Which, BTW, is the topmost tier. No shame for Vader.

All you have shown me is that Palps and Yoda have more feats than Darkside Anakin,

Yes. For Palpatine, feats put him above Anakin- and quotes do too. Yoda only needs to have the contending with Sidious feat to be placed above Anakin- the other feats just put the nail in the coffin.

and that they would cream Jedi morals on Anakin.

OK, yeah, but they would also defeat Knightfall Vader. Solidly. Unquestionably. In decent fights.

By Word of God, Anakin embracing the darkside is in Yoda and Palpatine's class of fighters.

As a duelist, perhaps. In technical skill, yes. Sidious and Yoda have much more powerful physicals, though. That's what makes them considerably better in a saber duel.

Read my reply to Kbro, post #33, in regards to Dooku standing his ground against Yoda.

OK. Read it. So what? You have no proof at all Dooku was a 9 at the time the movies were made. Gillard already worked with those saber dueling levels. Dooku was probably an 8 all along. Again, Dooku vs Yoda proves that tier 9 people aren't 30x more powerful than tier 8. Well, it depends on the tier 8, but since we are talking Dooku and Maul here, people who can very well be considered high tier 8s, Vader is not decimating them. In a 1v1 he isn't- much less in a 2v1.

Dooku being caught off gaurd is irrelevant.

Yes, it is. If he wasn't caught off guard, it could have changed things. Dooku wouldn't have been "sh!tstomped." Anyway, he wasn't "sh!tstomped." Maul vs Ben, for example, is a "sh!tstomp."

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DE Sidious vs DE Luke (unamped) is a "sh!tstomp."

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Sidious vs Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin is a "sh!tstomp."

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Sidious vs Beyghor Sahdett's companions is a "sh!tstomp."

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Rahm Kota vs Dark Apprentice is a "sh!tstomp."

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ROTJ Vader vs ROTJ Sidious in the non-canon TFU II ending is a "sh!tstomp."

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The novel made it perfectly clear that the moment Anakin wanted Dooku dead, he was gonna die,

Well, if you're superior to someone as a combatant, and you want them to die, I guess it's very likely that you're going to kill them. And if Anakin wanted Dooku to die in that moment, Dooku would have been one-shotted. Which, of course, he wasn't. He may have died quick, but it was against a special version of Anakin.

Dooku-stomper Anakin? the hell he isn't.

Well, maybe that guy is, but that's an outliar, one-time version of Anakin. Baseline Knightfall Vader wouldn't one-shot Obi-Wan... or Yoda wouldn't have sent Obi-Wan in a suicide mission. And, it's pretty obvious. Not using Mustafar as a measuring stick, but still. Obi-Wan was parrying Dooku's strikes effortlessly per ROTS novel. I mean, he's not getting, in any way, one-shotted by Anakin (maybe Force power, but this right now is saber dueling, not Force.)

Maul? who was driving back Kenobi

Well, if the tier difference is so massive, then he should be doing much more than usual.

when Kenobi was fighting at a much higher level than usual?

Which wouldn't really matter much if the difference between tiers was that big (it really isn't).

Maul, who was practically toying with both Quigon and Kenobi combined on Naboo?

Again, this should be on Maul's paygrade if the tier difference was that high, because it was a tier 8 vs two tier 7s. In this fight, it's a tier 9 vs two tier 8s, and you're saying the 9 stomps. By that logic, Maul should also decimate and be able to toy with the tier 7s given he is a tier 8. He did win thoroughly and did teach them a lesson, but he didn't decimate them or anything.

level 9 fighter in Windu?

And yes, Windu is a 9.

OK, you have that point, but this also helps me out!

If Mace is a tier 9, why didn't he butcher Dooku, a tier 8, and instead never managed more than a standstill?

They clashed more off-panel, so you don't say it was simply five clashes. Action in comics is also considerably cut short. This would be much more in a movie or show (13+ seconds according to my estimate).
They clashed more off-panel, so you don't say it was simply five clashes. Action in comics is also considerably cut short. This would be much more in a movie or show (13+ seconds according to my estimate).

Why is Dooku regarded by most to be close to Mace's level?

Why did Mace only get a not very clear upper hand in sabers against GG, who judging by his performances against Kenobi, Dooku and Maul is a tier 8? Remember that Grievous was hindered given he had to be magnetized, and thus have his mobility absolutely taken away from him.

Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.

Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad—the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs...

The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.

The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary.

Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos. Clearly, Grievous—onetime courageous commander of sentient troops—realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous—current commander of droids and other war machines—wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades.

Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed. Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep.

Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully. Had he fallen into the canyon? Had he managed to dig his duranium claws into the side of the car or grab hold of the mag-lev rail itself?

Mace couldn't take the time to puzzle it out. One hundred meters away, the gunboat retracted its landing gear and rose from the roof on repulsorlift power. Reckless shots from one of the pursuing gunships obliged the Separatist craft to skew, then dive, with the gunship following close behind.

Labyrinth of Evil

Why was Mace visibly hard-pressed to beat a pre-prime Ventress who should be no more than a tier 7 given her performance against Padawan Anakin?

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Why did Mace have to use "all his skills" to beat Asajj?

Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress.

The Official Star Wars Fact File #108

Why did Sora Bulq fight Mace to a standstill in sabers, given he should be no more than a high tier 7/low tier 8? Why did Mace have to resort to the Force?

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Why did Mace only manage to fight to a standstill with Saesee Tiin, someone who probably is a tier 7?

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This should be more than sufficient to prove that the difference between tiers isn't x30. Heck, the difference between tier 9 and tier 7 shouldn't be as big.

Plus, even if I were to discard the 30 times difference in magnitude and not take it literally,

Which you should do.

no level 8 is standing up to a level 9 that is seriously trying to defeat them.

Uhh... Bulq vs Mace? Grievous vs Mace? Dooku vs Yoda? So on and so on?

You have yet to prove why Anakin was fighting at a higher level aboard the Invisible Hand vs Operation knightfall.

I'll explain it again; aboard the IH, Anakin had a rage amp. His fighting levels were increased. Before the rage amp, Anakin was winning, but not by stomp margins, and per the junior novel, he wasn't winning at all. While he was winning, he wasn't stomping. And if there is a literal definition for a Jedi who doesn't hold back, that's Anakin Skywalker. Once Sidious said those words in the novel/Dooku used Dun Moch in the film, Anakin beat Dooku pretty handily. In Operation Knightfall, Anakin is using the Dark Side, yes, but he doesn't have a rage amp.

Anakin hates Dooku, as proven here, and would have no issues killing him:

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The rage amp ampedhim. It amplified his combat abilities by a big degree. This did not happen during Operation Knightfall.

Where are you getting this from?

From here:

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So what that shows is that Shaak can't even stand up to Vader

Nope. It shows that Shaak Ti, very likely a tier 7, can survive an engagement with a tier 9 for an undisclosed period of time. But if your tier difference was real, then she shouldn't last 4+ seconds. They fought- and Shaak lasted more than that. This completely rips your point apart- as many other fights I've shown have.

You have yet to give me a good reason why the duo doesn't get decimated everytime, much less why the team butchers him.

Well, Dooku+Maul collectively are far more skilled, and at the very least equally powerful, although they should also beat Vader in that regard. Not seeing what Vader has on them, tbh.

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#44 Edited by freesid_stf123 (529 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesithmaster said:

Exactly! Anakin isn't as powerful as Palpatine; in a fight of Force powers, Sidious would win solidly. But Anakin, at the time, had the potential to surpass Sidious by miles. Only, he didn't because Mustafar, which limited him to be 80% of Sidious or so.

So let me get this straight. You're saying that Lucas was talking about potential, right? Because that makes no sense whatsoever. You and I agree that Anakin's potential is higher than Palpatine's, so why would Lucas, who states that Anakin was as strong,(not stronger, as strong) be referring to potential? It's clear Lucas was talking about the power(power/strength, same thing in this context) that Anakin could call upon at will, when he wasn't hindered.

Well, Yoda's mountain TK feat is above anything Anakin has to show, and his contention with Sidious too.

To put Sidious>Vader at rest, and Vader not being on his actual level (he is not far off, but not on the level) once and for all:

Sidious is the most powerful being in the galaxy, and Talzin can only become that if she takes his spot:

By restoring Maul's powers, Talzin hoped to defeat Sidious and become the most powerful being in the galaxy.

Mother Talzin Databank, Starwars.com

Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history. That is sufficient ground to put him above Knightfall Vader, a Sith Lord, once and for all.

Finally- the Emperor- who should be fighting to save the Republic- is revealed as the most powerful and menacing Sith of all!

The Sith (Revenge of the Sith Collection, 2005)

Yoda was a master at masking his emotions, but not even he could hide them from the greatest Sith Lord ever known.

The Clone Wars: Wild Space

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

The New Essential Cronology

With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1

Also, the most powerful Dark Side practitioner, putting him above Vader, if doubts remain.

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I'm aware of all those accolades. Lucas, whose word holds absolute authority has already stated that Anakin when tapping into the darkside was as strong as Palpatine, and I hold his word in high regard.

Vader is really good, he's above most, but he's just not on Yoda or Sidious' tier. Which, BTW, is the topmost tier. No shame for Vader.

Per Lucas and Gillard, he is. Nothing to argue.

Read my reply to Kbro, post #33, in regards to Dooku standing his ground against Yoda.

OK. Read it. So what? You have no proof at allDooku was a 9 at the time the movies were made. Gillard already worked with those saber dueling levels. Dooku was probably an 8 all along. Again, Dooku vs Yoda proves that tier 9 people aren't 30x more powerful than tier 8. Well, it depends on the tier 8, but since we are talking Dooku and Maul here, people who can very well be considered high tier 8s, Vader is not decimating them. In a 1v1 he isn't- much less in a 2v1.

I specifically said borderline 9, not a flat out nine. There's a difference. Gillard never said what Dooku was at the time he made the movies, and only calls Dooku,(a character that Lucas basically wasted and didn't give much though to, so I doubt Gillard paid a whole lot of attention to him either, especially not as much as Yoda, palps, windu, anakin, kenobit, etc) an 8 in 2012, almost a decade after the movies were made, where he also contradicts himself with regards to Mace. I don't see a reason to believe that Dooku is just a flat out 8.

Yes, it is. If he wasn't caught off guard, it could have changed things. Dooku wouldn't have been "sh!tstomped." Anyway, he wasn't "sh!tstomped." Maul vs Ben, for example, is a "sh!tstomp."

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DE Sidious vs DE Luke (unamped) is a "sh!tstomp."

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Sidious vs Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin is a "sh!tstomp."

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Sidious vs Beyghor Sahdett's companions is a "sh!tstomp."

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Rahm Kota vs Dark Apprentice is a "sh!tstomp."

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ROTJ Vader vs ROTJ Sidious in the non-canon TFU II ending is a "sh!tstomp."

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Now you're just arguing semantics. There is no rule that total humiliation has to equal instant destruction. Fighting someone who makes all your knowledge, skills, experience, etc look like a joke is a total stompage.

Again, this should be on Maul's paygrade if the tier difference was that high, because it was a tier 8 vs two tier 7s. In this fight, it's a tier 9 vs two tier 8s, and you're saying the 9 stomps. By that logic, Maul should also decimate and be able to toy with the tier 7s given he is a tier 8. He did win thoroughly and did teach them a lesson, but he didn't decimate them or anything.

He was..... so what's your point?

OK, you have that point, but this also helps me out!

No it doesn't. I'm a bit too tired to explain all of them myself now, so I'll just refer you to EmperorDMB's blog. Those fights, particularly Mace vs. Ventress, and Mace vs Bulq, have been debunked a long time ago. I'm surprised those are still misinterpreted. I will however respond to the Dooku and Mace fight in the comic. You literally just gave the entire fight, right before Mace get's attacked from behind by the Count's magnagards. Simply put, it was too brief and inconclusive, not one worth using.

I'll explain it again; aboard the IH, Anakin had a rage amp. His fighting levels were increased. Before the rage amp, Anakin was winning, but not by stomp margins, and per the junior novel, he wasn't winning at all. While he was winning, he wasn't stomping. And if there is a literal definition for a Jedi who doesn't hold back, that's Anakin Skywalker. Once Sidious said those words in the novel/Dooku used Dun Moch in the film, Anakin beat Dooku pretty handily. In Operation Knightfall, Anakin is using the Dark Side, yes, but he doesn't have a rage amp.

This is false. Anakin was holding himself back, per the novel.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Anakin had that rage in him all along, but he wasn't using it, and Dooku knew it. The minute Palpatine goads Anakin into using his rage, Anakin simply unleashes it and taps into the dark side, and in operation knightfall, Anakin is doing the same thing, using his rage and tapping into the dark side. That simple. Knightfall Vader is "Zonakin".

From here:

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Ahh, never played the game before. However, that completely contradicts every other source material which depicts Vader butchering Cin Drallig in seconds. I don't see a reason to take this seriously.

Nope. It shows that Shaak Ti, very likely a tier 7, can survive an engagement with a tier 9 for an undisclosed period of time. But if your tier difference was real, then she shouldn't last 4+ seconds. They fought- and Shaak lasted more than that. This completely rips your point apart- as many other fights I've shown have.

How you actually came to the conclusion that Shaak ti could survive an actual fight with Vader when a considerably superior combatant in Tyranus got murked in about 10 seconds based on a quote that depicts Shaak Ti running away when Vader attacks is beyond me. And no, that quote doesn't "rip my point apart". It actually proves it.

Well, Dooku+Maul collectively are far more skilled, and at the very least equally powerful, although they should also beat Vader in that regard. Not seeing what Vader has on them, tbh.

Yea no. Dooku will get butchered, again. Maul is not enough to actually change anything. Per Lucas, Anakin drawing on the dark side is as strong as Palpatine. He decimates.

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#45 Edited by Kilius (1537 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123 said:Ahh, never played the game before. However, that completely contradicts every other source material which depicts Vader butchering Cin Drallig in seconds. I don't see a reason to take this seriously.

It's a good game, one of my childhood favorites, but the feats definitely shouldn't be taken seriously in consideration of the other canon feats. That game has both Pre-Suit and ANH Vader using Sith Lighting, Anakin straight up raggdolling Mace Windu, and of course the Cin Drallig duel, which is contradicted by the ease of which he beat them in the novel and the movie.

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#46 Posted by RedHeathen (2146 posts) - - Show Bio

ROTS Anakin handed Tyranus his rear, but with the addition of Maul, I'm not sure if he'd win. I'm on the fence with this one, but I'd lean a little more toward the duo.

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#47 Edited by playerx-tr (607 posts) - - Show Bio

Team

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#48 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

maul gets mandalore'd, Anakin beats dooku decisively.

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#49 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7707 posts) - - Show Bio

Team.KF Anakin is still basically featless.

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#50 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul either solos (TPM Maul defeated ANH Vader who is more powerful and a more refined duelist than KF Vader) or team 10/10 solidly.