I feel like the team wins. Vader is stronger, but at this point he was really arrogant and in over his head, which is why he lost to Kenobi. Maul might get cocky and get himself killed, and if he does Vader wins, but as long as he is careful, he and Ahsoka should be able to work together to take him down.
Keep in mind this Vader is outright weaker and less skilled than the version Ahsoka already held her own against.
The team is taking this, Rebels Ahsoka contending with Rebels Vader who is > than Knightfall Vader is an amazing feat. Not enough to win on her own, but with Mauls help, she can take it.
The team is taking this, Rebels Ahsoka contending with Rebels Vader who is > than Knightfall Vader is an amazing feat. Not enough to win on her own, but with Mauls help, she can take it.
Her contending means nothing, because S5 Maul was able to Contend with Sidious which was stated to be an intense battle. This Vader Killed a Jedi Master in seconds.
Ahsoka using a Style advantage that was made specifically for handily opponents like Vader is why she was able to contend with Vader.
If Vader is KF & truly in the living moment I suspect that Ashoka gets cleaved & quickly at that. Then its Maul vs Peak Anakin.. This is a Vader W. Plain and simple. Anakin in the zone is too much and he knows it.
The team is taking this, Rebels Ahsoka contending with Rebels Vader who is > than Knightfall Vader is an amazing feat. Not enough to win on her own, but with Mauls help, she can take it.
Her contending means nothing, because S5 Maul was able to Contend with Sidious which was stated to be an intense battle. This Vader Killed a Jedi Master in seconds.
Ahsoka using a Style advantage that was made specifically for handily opponents like Vader is why she was able to contend with Vader.
Drallig doesn't die in that clip. They duel for about 7 seconds, and then the holorecording cuts off. We don't know exactly how long it took Vader to defeat Drallig, only that the latter went blow-for-blow with him a bare minimum of 7 seconds -- an amount of time not especially far off from the length Obi-Wan's active duel with Grievous lasted.
The team is taking this, Rebels Ahsoka contending with Rebels Vader who is > than Knightfall Vader is an amazing feat. Not enough to win on her own, but with Mauls help, she can take it.
Her contending means nothing, because S5 Maul was able to Contend with Sidious which was stated to be an intense battle. This Vader Killed a Jedi Master in seconds.
Ahsoka using a Style advantage that was made specifically for handily opponents like Vader is why she was able to contend with Vader.
Drallig doesn't die in that clip. They duel for about 7 seconds, and then the holorecording cuts off. We don't know exactly how long it took Vader to defeat Drallig, only that the latter went blow-for-blow with him a bare minimum of 7 seconds -- an amount of time not especially far off from the length Obi-Wan's active duel with Grievous lasted.
Yes he does. That clip is what decanonizes the ROTS video game fight scene vs Drallig where Chee said he died
Drallig and the two Padawans are the only Jedi in the scene. Those three were the only actors in the scene. The bulk of the fight was shot between Gillard & Hayden, who worked it out in the former's garage. The fight they came up with in general was so violent, Lucas shrunk it to a hologram.
Drallig didn't die on-screen, and we heard continued fighting immediately after it cut away. To assume it's Anakin vs another Jedi doesn't make all that much sense.
Drallig and the two Padawans are the only Jedi in the scene. Those three were the only actors in the scene. The bulk of the fight was shot between Gillard & Hayden, who worked it out in the former's garage. The fight they came up with in general was so violent, Lucas shrunk it to a hologram.
Drallig didn't die on-screen, and we heard continued fighting immediately after it cut away. To assume it's Anakin vs another Jedi doesn't make all that much sense.
The team wins, and quite decisively. This being TPM Maul, the Zabrak warrior is in his prime, and represents a grueling, narrow match for Vader on his own that can tip either way. We know both of these firm facts from the following mounds of source material on the subject:
It cannot be stressed enough that in canon, The Phantom Menace is Darth Maul's prime. Full stop. It's the same case in legends, too, but that's another argument for another time.
Outside of comic vine, among the wider fanbase, this concept is much more widely acknowledged. Even amongst the current Lucasfilm Storygroup, such a viewpoint persists:
Because really, it's obvious. Maul was chopped in half, then spent 12 years in a state of insanity. He has only about a year during the Clone Wars to try and recover.
But most importantly -- it's officially confirmed by those who handled bringing him back. TPM Maul vs TCW Maul was compared to OT Boba vs adolescent, teenage Boba in TCW, with supervising director Dave Filoni agreeing:
IGN: With Maul, I felt it was a bit like you approached Boba Fett. Maul got rebuilt, he got back his sanity and focus -- but he still wasn't quite Phantom Menace Maul, flipping all over the place -- and he didn't have a double-sided lightsaber. Was that something else where you thought, "He can't just instantly be that badass again"?
Filoni: Definitely. In my opinion, he did really well for being out of the business for about ten years. To come back in and take down Obi-Wan, leaping around on velociraptor legs, he did pretty good. It's an interesting dilemma having him on these weird legs, because he can't instantly fight in the style that you remember Maul fighting in. So Sam really had to bring it through voice and through expression of animation in the face. But there's some twists coming up for Maul, that's for sure. He's far more cunning and well-trained in how to be a Sith than people think. He's not just all about being an enforcer. He got a good education from his master, and we're going to put that into effect next season for sure.
Filoni additonally notes the disadvantage of having been inactive for over a decade, then, in an attempt to be positive, mentions that they're going to emphasize Maul's cunning and intelligence, which will make things better for him. Extending this state of inferiority to Mandalore Maul.
In TCW, they wanted to emphasize Maul's mental ability over his combat ability.
And no, Mother Talzin did not restore Maul's power. This scene right here was specifically added to demonstrate that Maul isn't as strong in the Force as he was in TPM, as pointed out by Sam Witwer, and affirmed by Filoni:
Witwer: By the way this moment where Darth Maul reaches for his lightsaber and actually has to concentrate to make it happen...
Taylor: Yeah uh, I actually, I was thinking about that too. That's...
Witwer: The greatest little touch, it's like, he's not quite the same and he's not quite as connected as he once was.
(Filoni & Lucas nodding in agreement)
Witwer: Funny enough, this was something that someone said to me years ago, and they said 'if they ever brought Darth Maul back there should be a scene where he tries to use the Force, and it doesn't work the first he tries'.
And no, Maul's 12 year exile did not strengthen him. It's been confirmed by Lucasfilm Storygroup member Matt Martin that said period of insanity weakened him:
An obvious enough conclusion. Onto prime Maul's scaling.
Per commentary from George Lucas, General Grievous in Episode III wasn't supposed to be as formidable a fighter as the other major villains:
"One of the themes with Grievous was that I didn't want a big and powerful villain. I wanted a cunning and almost cowardly villain who was not super strong or super powerful but, at the same time, a good fighter. But I didn't want someone bigger, stronger, and more powerful than the other villains..."
~ George Lucas, Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary
This locks Grievous beneath:
Darth Sidious
Count Dooku
Darth Vader(ROTS, at least)
Darth Maul(TPM)
Now you may say "well this is canon, Lucas doesn't own Star Wars anymore!" Alright, but this is not just some random WoG statement. The films are still canon -- immovable canon to which all other sources must align, in fact -- and Lucas is clarifying intent that went into the films. As creator of those films, he is telling us that Grievous wasn't written to be as strong as the aforementioned villains. Meaning that in the films, which are canon, Grievous isn't as strong as the aforementioned villains.
Thus, prime Maul absorbs all of Grievous' accomplishments, but to a greater degree. Grievous has:
Hardpressed ROTS Obi-Wan
His arms seperate and grab all four lightsabers on his belt. His four arms create a flashing display of swordsmanship.
OBI-WAN: "You forget I trained the Jedi that defeated Count Dooku!"
OBI-WAN is hard-pressed to defend himself against the deadly onslaught.
The former having closely matched ROTS Vader, and the latter having closely matched post-ROTS Vader:
"It was important to Nick that he installed a story to the fight to show an exchange of power. My character is meant to be the Chosen One, and I'm supposed to be one of the better Jedi as far as fighting goes, yet I come out on the short end of it. Nick balanced the fight perfectly so that neither Ewan nor I look substantially weaker than the other."
~ Hayden Christensen, Star Wars Insider #82
One of the more intense moments of the Anakin--Obi-Wan lightsaber duel takes place toe-to-toe. "That toe-to-toe thing shows that they can't get through each other's defenses," Gillard explains, "because they know each other's moves so intimately."
~ The Making of Revenge of the Sith
There's simply no way Vader has even the slightest chance of prevailing against prime Maul, his combative peer, and a solid tier 7 such as adult Ahsoka, who has matched with other tier 7s such as Rebels Vader & Maul on a dark side nexus.
A slightly stronger version of Vader struggled against Obi-Wan on Mustafar:
"It was important to Nick that he installed a story to the fight to show an exchange of power. My character is meant to be the Chosen One, and I'm supposed to be one of the better Jedi as far as fighting goes, yet I come out on the short end of it. Nick balanced the fight perfectly so that neither Ewan nor I look substantially weaker than the other."
~ Hayden Christensen, Star Wars Insider #82
One of the more intense moments of the Anakin--Obi-Wan lightsaber duel takes place toe-to-toe. "That toe-to-toe thing shows that they can't get through each other's defenses," Gillard explains, "because they know each other's moves so intimately."
~ The Making of Revenge of the Sith
And a slightly weaker version of Vader struggled against IG-102 (one of General Grievous' personal bodyguards) aboard the Invisible Hand:
"ANAKIN struggles to defend himself against the other manic DROID BODYGUARD."
ROTS Vader's got nothing credible to his name that would put him above a strike force of this calibre.
His "victory" over Dooku? Highly circumstantial, and subsequently unusable. Anakin only barely managed to indecisively edge out an overconfident, holding back and exhausted Dooku via taking advantage of the latter's overconfidence to bait him into overextending. This happening on the tail end of a well-matched duel of respectable length.
One can trudge through the mud attempting to sift through the mounds of different secondary accounts and supplementary sources in relation to this fight, all with their own idea as to what went down and why -- but as far as what happened in the actual film? How things are in the immovable, original, most authoritative portrayal of these events?
It's quite simple: Dooku is better than Anakin.
"But Anakin defeated Dooku"
Yes, Anakin won -- but winning in and of itself does not make one superior. Obi-Wan defeated Maul & Vader in Episodes I & III, but was he the superior fighter? No. Circumstances played into the outcome, the "losers" weren't outright overmatched.
What circumstances allowed Anakin to disarm Dooku? Let's take a look.
Per Nick Gillard, the senior stunt coordinator/choreogapher of the prequel trilogy -- who extensively discussed the fights with Lucas prior to constructing their technical aspects -- Dooku was mentally hindered, too sure of his superiority:
Dooku was overconfident, and Anakin only managed to get past Dooku's guard by exploiting this weakness. Already, we have delegitimized Anakin's seeming victory. Let's continue.
Per the film script -- the literal foundation of the movie, its written form, created directly by George Lucas, confirmed to be G-canon (i.e., on relatively equal footing with the film and Lucas' own word) by Leland Chee -- Dooku was already tired much earlier on in the fight:
If Dooku had already tired himself in the early stages of the fight, how much more exhausted would he be by the time we reach the final bout between Anakin & himself? After significantly more physical activity. By then, one can easily assume that the good Count would have been thoroughly fatigued. At 83, he's a sprinter, not a jogger -- good in the short term, but he can't maintain his peak levels for very long.
So far? Drawing solely from film production sources, we know that Dooku was overconfident and exhausted when he faced Anakin, and that his younger opponent exploited Dooku's hindering mindset to take the upper hand. Next up...
Per George Lucas himself, the fight is but a setup. Dooku & Sidious are testing Anakin, feeling out his abilities. This isn't a life or death challenge -- Anakin will be allowed to escape should he prove inferior, because they don't want him dead. He's an asset, and a valuable one at that:
Dooku's end goal is to prevail -- but he isn't trying to kill (or, presumably, maim) Anakin, and thus isn't giving it his all. This isn't a serious fight on Dooku's part, it is only Anakin who's gunning for a win at all costs, battling for his life, and -- from his point of view -- the lives of Obi-Wan & Palpatine, the two most important figures to him alongside Padme(Ahsoka didn't exist at this point).
Now you might say something like, "well okay, but how does that prove Dooku's considerable superority? Being hindered doesn't change the fact that Anakin stomped him" and that's fair. But did he stomp him?
Look at this swordplay:
Does this look like a one-sided fight? Call me crazy, but that looks pretty balanced to me. Anakin is attacking as he always is, and Dooku is retreating at a normal pace, meeting each blow.
That's the bulk of the fight. Afterwards, they bladelock, exchange a few sweeping blows as Dooku shifts his footing to avoid being backed up against the column behind, and Anakin baits his opponent into overextending:
Nothing in the terms of the balance of their swordplay indicates a thrashing. It's a regular battle.
"But it's only 10 seconds long"
There's a bit of a problem with that: you're assuming that 10 seconds is a short amount of time for a duel to last in the Star Wars film industry. What prompts one to make such an assertion? Both historically speaking and in modern day, the active swordplay in a duel rarely spans more than a few seconds.
It's a common misconception that most all the well-matched prequel fights are minutes long. But that's all it is: a misconception. Sure, there are fights of that length -- Obi-Wan vs Anakin, Yoda vs Palpatine, Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon vs Maul -- but there are also a fair amount of considerably shorter bouts.
How long was Qui-Gon vs Maul on Tatooine? 30 seconds.
How long was Qui-Gon vs Maul (final bout) on Naboo? 29 seconds.
And how closely matched were these fights? In a 1999 interview, a pre-release information drop, Nick Gillard stated that these swordfights were designed to portray the involved combatants as rivals, near-equals:
"Battling against telegraphing anything, Gillard wrote the fights as real confrontations of near-equals. 'This was meant to be like matching Porsche Turbos against each other,' he says with a grin."
Grievous was hardpressing his adversary, yet only fought in 9-10 second bursts.
It's pretty clear that by the standards of those who were crafting these duels for the films, it doesn't have to be a marathon fight for it to be close -- 10 seconds is not at all a short amount of time.
The concept of Dooku & Anakin's final brawl being a tough match is further reinforced by Lucas' writing of that scene in the script:
Their fighting becomes even more intense. ANAKIN attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness. Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. It is intense! Finally, in one last energized charge, ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU'S hands.
That's not exactly the description of an utter trouncing accomplished with ease. Lucas goes out of his way to note that the quality of their fencing has been upped on the part of both fighters, and that the duel is intense. He uses language like "finally" and "in one last energized charge", implicitly establishing that Anakin is only making progress following an extended match, coming heavily at Dooku again and again until at last he succeeds with an especially forceful surge.
And again, I should like to point out that Dooku thought he was superior to Anakin right up until he was disarmed... there's arrogance, and then there's just plain lunacy. If Dooku was being effortlessly stomped, would he not be aware of this, even loosely? Dooku still believing he's going to win throughout the fight only serves as further evidence that it was a close match.
In short, the idea of Anakin having stomped Dooku simply does not fit with what we know of the movie fight.
Setting all that aside, Anakin's "victory" wasn't all that decisive. He didn't outright disarm his opponent -- he got his arm past Dooku's blade, then forcibly held his arms in place as he cut them off.
The skill showing, the advantage taken, was just Anakin getting a limb past Dooku's guard. Nothing more. It's no different than landing a kick or punch. It's not inherently a disarming, like directly chopping off someone's arm mid-fight or prying their blade from your opponent's hand. It was the added benefit of Anakin's strength that enabled him to hold onto Dooku's arms while he cut them off.
This doesn't elevate Anakin conclusively beyond Dooku because Anakin won't always be that much stronger than another opponent on that level, and likewise Dooku won't always be that much weaker than another opponent on that level. Moreover, what kind of opening will present itself is completely random. Anakin being able to abuse his strength to disarm someone is dependent on that one, specific opening presenting itself again.
For all intent and purposes, following an extended and well-matched duel, Anakin managed to punch Dooku.
In addition, it wasn't just Obi-Wan being dominated by Dooku -- Anakin took a blow every time Obi-Wan did:
It wasn't a case of Obi-Wan considerably underperforming -- Dooku was dominating both simultaneously. This right here is the only slip-up that Anakin does not match:
Obi-Wan overextending, and having his positioning controlled by Dooku.
All in all, Dooku was pretty casually staving off/dominating Obi-Wan & Anakin:
As we've gone over, Anakin only managed to indecisively outfight an exhausted, holding back, mentally hindered Dooku via taking advantage of his overconfidence to bait him into overextending -- and even then, only following a well-matched duel of respectable length. Prior to this, Dooku was not only withstanding the combined force of his Jedi opponents, but mopping the floor with them
We know this from numerous nigh-set-in-stone film production sources clarifying intent, in addition to the film itself.
@lord_tenebrous: On the TPM vs other versions of Maul thing:
Is there anything to dismiss the idea of TPM Maul being inferior to SoD Maul? The only connection I could make would be Grievous scaling below TPM Maul while beating SoD.
It seems to me that Maul was at a very high point during TPM, and then sunk to a low point during the early CW until reaching a high point again during SoD/ROTS and then sunk again continuing onto rebels.
Are there any other reasons other than GG scaling that suggest TPM Maul > SoD Maul?
@lord_tenebrous: On the TPM vs other versions of Maul thing:
Is there anything to dismiss the idea of TPM Maul being inferior to SoD Maul? The only connection I could make would be Grievous scaling below TPM Maul while beating SoD.
It seems to me that Maul was at a very high point during TPM, and then sunk to a low point during the early CW until reaching a high point again during SoD/ROTS and then sunk again continuing onto rebels.
Are there any other reasons other than GG scaling that suggest TPM Maul > SoD Maul?
Well, why would we assume that SOD Maul improved at all since his last appearance in TCW S5, the Mandalore arc? The interim time period consists of being imprisoned/tortured under Sidious & Dooku. Moreover, he's using an unfamiliar and noticeably different weapon -- the darksaber.
Both storylines also take place in the same year, that year being 20 bby. Maul enters the scene that year, and Talzin as well as Savage are killed that year.
One could argue, based on logic alone, that Maul improved in the months after SOD, leading up to ROTS, but would those months be enough to overcome well over a decade of inactivity? Especially considering the fact that Maul has been using a single blade up until that point, so that's an additional burden on his training -- readjusting his technique, familiarizing himself once again with his style all those years ago.
I don't think it's enough. Not especially close either.
@lord_tenebrous: On the TPM vs other versions of Maul thing:
Is there anything to dismiss the idea of TPM Maul being inferior to SoD Maul? The only connection I could make would be Grievous scaling below TPM Maul while beating SoD.
It seems to me that Maul was at a very high point during TPM, and then sunk to a low point during the early CW until reaching a high point again during SoD/ROTS and then sunk again continuing onto rebels.
Are there any other reasons other than GG scaling that suggest TPM Maul > SoD Maul?
Well, why would we assume that SOD Maul improved at all since his last appearance in TCW S5, the Mandalore arc? The interim time period consists of being imprisoned/tortured under Sidious & Dooku. Moreover, he's using an unfamiliar and noticeably different weapon -- the darksaber.
Both storylines also take place in the same year, that year being 20 bby. Maul enters the scene that year, and Talzin as well as Savage are killed that year.
One could argue, based on logic alone, that Maul improved in the months after SOD, leading up to ROTS, but would those months be enough to overcome well over a decade of inactivity? Especially considering the fact that Maul has been using a single blade up until that point, so that's an additional burden on his training -- readjusting his technique, familiarizing himself once again with his style all those years ago.
I don't think it's enough. Not especially close either.
Thats exactly what I thought about TPM Maul is the Prime
The team wins, and quite decisively. This being TPM Maul, the Zabrak warrior is in his prime, and represents a grueling, narrow match for Vader on his own that can tip either way. We know both of these firm facts from the following mounds of source material on the subject:
There's simply no way Vader has even the slightest chance of prevailing against prime Maul, his combative peer, and a solid tier 7 such as adult Ahsoka, who has matched with other tier 7s such as Rebels Vader & Maul on a dark side nexus.
A slightly stronger version of Vader struggled against Obi-Wan on Mustafar:
And a slightly weaker version of Vader struggled against IG-102 (one of General Grievous' personal bodyguards) aboard the Invisible Hand:
ROTS Vader's got nothing credible to his name that would put him above a strike force of this calibre.
His "victory" over Dooku? Highly circumstantial, and subsequently unusable. Anakin only barely managed to indecisively edge out an overconfident, holding back and exhausted Dooku via taking advantage of the latter's overconfidence to bait him into overextending. This happening on the tail end of a well-matched duel of respectable length.
We know this from numerous nigh-set-in-stone film production sources clarifying intent, in addition to the film itself.
TPM Maul is not Prime. No reasonable person would ever think that. Maul is very clearly and obviously superior in later versions. Starwars.com states Rebels Maul is the strongest incarnation. We have had this conversation before. Matt Martin is not a official source, even he says so himself. Starwars.com is a official source, and trumps anything people say in interviews.
Also, Anakin absolutely trounced Dooku. It wasn't circumstantial, and it wasn't barely. He murked him. As for a respectable length, it was 32 seconds, with talking. The same amount of time in AOTC where Dooku fought Anakin, and you certainly would not use time as a measurement for how close they were together in that scenario... where Dooku was clearly superior. He did not get exhausted by the time of the duel, but by trying to keep up with Anakin, which is directly explained in the Novelization. Dude fought for longer in AOTC and then fought Yoda and was fine. Time wasn't a factor at all.
Now don't get me wrong, not sure KFV can win this, but don't go doing that thing you do where you throw out your own personal theories using obscure tertiary references to justify them. Just simply isn't fun to argue with someone who lives in their own fantasy world.
In Canon, I believe KF Vader is weaker than Rebels Vader, so there's that. Ahsoka gave a pretty good fight against a better version of Vader and TPM Maul is also quite a bit better than his Rebels Maul. Taking KF Vader's arrogance into account, the Team should win in a very hard fight.
@lord_tenebrous: On the TPM vs other versions of Maul thing:
Is there anything to dismiss the idea of TPM Maul being inferior to SoD Maul? The only connection I could make would be Grievous scaling below TPM Maul while beating SoD.
It seems to me that Maul was at a very high point during TPM, and then sunk to a low point during the early CW until reaching a high point again during SoD/ROTS and then sunk again continuing onto rebels.
Are there any other reasons other than GG scaling that suggest TPM Maul > SoD Maul?
Well, why would we assume that SOD Maul improved at all since his last appearance in TCW S5, the Mandalore arc? The interim time period consists of being imprisoned/tortured under Sidious & Dooku. Moreover, he's using an unfamiliar and noticeably different weapon -- the darksaber.
Both storylines also take place in the same year, that year being 20 bby. Maul enters the scene that year, and Talzin as well as Savage are killed that year.
One could argue, based on logic alone, that Maul improved in the months after SOD, leading up to ROTS, but would those months be enough to overcome well over a decade of inactivity? Especially considering the fact that Maul has been using a single blade up until that point, so that's an additional burden on his training -- readjusting his technique, familiarizing himself once again with his style all those years ago.
I don't think it's enough. Not especially close either.
Thats exactly what I thought about TPM Maul is the Prime
Here's Dave Filoni on the darksaber issue, as speculatory as it may be:
StarWars.com: Why is Maul not using the Darksaber?
Dave Filoni: I don’t know. He’s not against it, but it is a different kind of sword. It’s not that it’s necessarily more powerful than any other lightsaber -- in fact, you can make a strong argument that it’s not. It’s an old, old, old lightsaber. For all I know, it has limitations. It’s obviously not a style that’s been replicated, and you can imagine that’s because Tar Vizsla understood something and added a Mandalorian twist to it that no one’s been able to replicate since. It’s a flat blade of energy, which is bizarre. Maul, I think, in his training, is more comfortable fighting with two. So he went back to a double-bladed lightsaber, probably just as a style preference more than anything. I think he sees it more as a trophy and a symbol than anything else. A fond memory of when he almost had ultimate power, which is something he’s always been after.
@mdemocracy: TCW Ahsoka was directly stated to be on TCW Mauls level when focused back in S7, i don't put her below him and she has grown considerably since then. Also i put Maul's prime somewhere between TCW and Rebels, i don't believe he declined that much either.
So imo if you had used any other version of Maul, this would be even worse for Anakin.
TPM Maul is not Prime. No reasonable person would ever think that.
The idea that CW Maul ever so much as approached his former prime in TPM following over a decade of neglect is utterly laughable. Perfectly absurd and objectively illogical. Fat Thor but on a much worse scale. I recommend you neglect whatever skills you have for 12 years, then get back to me on how quickly you regain them.
Then we'll discuss what is and is not reasonable.
That is, unless you are solely referring to his Rebels incarnation.
Starwars.com states Rebels Maul is the strongest incarnation.
Rebels Maul is indeed inferior to his CW incarnation, physically and in terms of combative prowess:
The likes of Dooku & Yoda increased with age because they continued to hone their abillties, not even to maintain their current level, but to expand their knowledge. Maul simply neglected his skills, failing to practice sufficiently.
Matt Martin is not a official source, even he says so himself.
Come again?
He acts as an official source on a daily basis and has been doing so for years. I assume you're referring to when he said he is both an acceptable, valid, credible source of information, and simultaneously not a source to be quoted on some wiki:
We have indeed has this conversation before. You contend that nothing Martin says is ever factual, despite numerous statements on his end to the contrary. It's not both if he's not ever valid, now is it?
See, I acknowledge both sides of the coin. You don't.
Starwars.com is a official source, and trumps anything people say in interviews.
The Databank is an official source, as are quotes from official Lucasfilm representatives acting in official capacity.
Also, Anakin absolutely trounced Dooku. It wasn't circumstantial, and it wasn't barely. He murked him.
This is sheer headcanon, with no basis in reality.
As for a respectable length, it was 32 seconds, with talking.
Their final bout was around 10 seconds.
The same amount of time in AOTC where Dooku fought Anakin, and you certainly would not use time as a measurement for how close they were together in that scenario... where Dooku was clearly superior.
In the film verse, there's nothing to suggest that Dooku was considered much better than Anakin at that point in time. If anything, their extended duel demonstrates otherwise. In fact, their 1v1 was going to be much longer, but they cut it down to make room for the sequence with Yoda.
He did not get exhausted by the time of the duel, but by trying to keep up with Anakin,
Both Obi-Wan & Dooku were tired. The latter being an elderly fellow.
which is directly explained in the Novelization.
Stop right there. The novelization has no place in this discussion. Never has, never will. No rambling on about line-editing or Lucas' interest will ever change that. For all his boasting, Stover has admitted that it wasn't designed to align with the film, he wrote it as though it was his own story, with the film being an adaptation of it:
And that's that.
Not to mention, my post on Dooku vs Anakin specifically takes into account only sources directly on the film itself. It does not take into account the EU's many differing portrayals.
Dooku tired himself out because of physical exertion. By the time we reach the end of the fight, he would have been exhausted.
Dude fought for longer in AOTC and then fought Yoda and was fine. Time wasn't a factor at all.
You must have missed the 3 years between AOTC and ROTS, as well as the fact that Dooku displayed visible weariness after besting Anakin.
@lord_tenebrous: If Maul from TPM is 100 in saber skill, and 50 his half of his skill level etc etc.
Where do you place TCW Maul, ROTS Maul and Rebels Maul?
Well If we look at how when Savage was being handled as a stand-in antagonist for Episode I Maul, he was handling the combined force of 20 bby Obi-Wan & Anakin, I'd assume that S5 regular legs/weapon Maul is probably around a 48. S7 Maul, a 48 or 47.5. Velociraptor legs Maul, 46. SOD Maul also 46, maybe a 45.5 depending on how much the imprisonment/torture affected him. Rebels Maul, a 43 or 44.
Well I went to an other forum and everybody was saying that TCW Maul ( Ahsoka Duel ) beats TPM Maul
Is there a consensus about Mauls prime version
Well first, a majority belief does not constitute fact. Look to the source material itself. What arguments did they provide?
But if you are looking for opinions, here is the opinion of Lucasfilm Storygroup member Matt Martin on the topic of TPM Maul vs 19 bby (basically Ahsoka duel, not season 5 or 4) Maul:
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