Kit Fisto Vs. Darth Talon

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ricochicomalico

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#1  Edited By ricochicomalico
Kit Fisto
Kit Fisto
Darth Talon
Darth Talon

Rules:

Standard morals and equipment.

Neutral ground and combatants start 15 meters apart.

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Bat_Siri

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Talon, Good Fight though

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WollfMyth

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I could honestly see a case being made for either of them winning.

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Godzilla_BK

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I'd say Talon. I think they are easily equal martial artists, but Talon holds a force advantage based on her force lightning

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WollfMyth

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@godzilla_bk:

I think they are easily equal martial artists,

Based on?

but Talon holds a force advantage based on her force lightning

Which is something Fisto can easily deflect.

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Godzilla_BK

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#6  Edited By Godzilla_BK

@wollfmyth

Based on?

Based on the fact she has contended with a Shado and Wolf by herself, various Imperial Knights by herself, and Cade Skywalker on numerous occasions, in which their last fight he was pressured to win by use of force abilities. Many of her showings are in encounters in which she is totally outnumbered, yet she either achieves victory or stalemates in those particular engagements.

Fisto's best feats as lightsaber combat are

1) His fight against Ventress, which he lost (although he was tired)

2) Defeating a watered-down TCW Grievous, which many attribute to the fact that he is a Shii-Cho master and is perfect for combating Grievous' fighting style.

And when I mean equal as martial artists, I mean equal in terms of 1v1 dueling.

Which is something Fisto can easily deflect.

Based on?

Even regardless, can doesn't mean he will. Having someone fire a torrent of lightning at you when you are expecting it, and when you are not, are two completely different things. She isn't going to make it easy.

Fisto's tendency to lose himself in battle fervor will likely leave him open periodically. Talon has weathered Cade's Juyo offensive, she will weather through Kit's Shii-Cho for a majority.

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deactivated-5bfd5d714c687

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Either way

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WollfMyth

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@godzilla_bk:

Based on the fact she has contended with a Shado and Wolf by herself,

For a like 3 bladelocks, then she started using Force powers.

various Imperial Knights by herself,

Huzzah for killing fodder that only served to die to make herself look cool.

and Cade Skywalker on numerous occasions,

What motivates Cade to be a so far better duelist than Fisto that Talon holding her own against him for a few panels would mark her a his equal?

in which their last fight he was pressured to win by use of force abilities.

We don't know that. We only know Cade wanted to get to Krayt and that Talon just stood in his way and got thrown around by TK.

Many of her showings are in encounters in which she is totally outnumbered, yet she either achieves victory or stalemates in those particular engagements.

Much like Fisto's duels with the MagnaGuards.

Fisto's best feats as lightsaber combat are

1) His fight against Ventress, which he lost (although he was tired)

2) Defeating a watered-down TCW Grievous, which many attribute to the fact that he is a Shii-Cho master and is perfect for combating Grievous' fighting style.

These aren't his only achievements. He wrecked AotC Kenobi in spars despite deliberetly hampering his speed and skill and holding back, and Obi knew immediately he was his inferior. And let's not forget him wrecking a pair of MagnaGuards and three MagnaGuards being enough to give Obi-Wan some trouble.

And when I mean equal as martial artists, I mean equal in terms of 1v1 dueling. Fisto maybe a better battlefield warrior, but he has never been seen combating multiple force sensitives.

So? It's not like he's fighting multiple Force sensitives. Unless Talon can clone herself.

Even regardless, can doesn't mean he will. Having someone fire a torrent of lightning at you when you are expecting it, and when you are not, are two completely different things. She isn't going to make it easy.

Given Fisto's superior speed and reflex feats to Talon(baffling JK Droids, baffling Obi-Wan Kenobi, speedblitzing MagnaGuards, etc.) he could deflect it.

Fisto's tendency to lose himself in battle fervor will likely leave him open periodically.

How when Shii-Cho is described as being randomized?

Talon has weathered Cade's Juyo offensive, she will weather through Kit's Shii-Cho for a majority.

Based on what does Cade use Juyo? Anyways, Fisto has superior unarmed/martial skill, equal/superior dueling skill, superior speed and strength, and probably equal or potentially superior TK. So I'd say he wins this.

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echostarlord117

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sirfizzwhizz

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@wollfmyth:

Huzzah for killing fodder that only served to die to make herself look cool.

Yeah, imperial knights are just low caliber fodder.

No Caption Provided

Imperial Knights all fully train to be equals of Jedi of the era.

"Despite opinions to the contrary, Imperial Knights is every bit as capable in the use of Force as their Jedi Counterparts, though their skill has considerably more martial focus.

-

They are warriors first and foremost, not negotiators, and make no excuses for this fact.

-

Another Difference between Jedi and the Impwerial Knights is that the Imperial Knights train strictly for combat, not contemplation.

-

Imperial Knights are among the most talented and dangerous Force users in the galaxy.

-

From the start of their training until they reach full knighthood, the Imperial Knights learn how to use the Force to transform themselves into living weapons and shields."

- Legacy Era Campaign Guide

"Skilled in the art of lightsaber combat, the Imperial Knights use many of the same combat training techniques as the Jedi, and have learned to fight in many of the same lightsaber dueling styles. However, the Imperial Knights are also the masters of two unique lightsaber combat forms that place greater emphasis on teamwork the the individuals prowess. The more aggressive style, known as Praetoria Vonil, focuses on moving quickly and striking hard. The more defensive style, known as Praetoria Ishu, emphasizes protecting one's allies to allow them to find a openings in an opponent defenses.

-

The Imperial Knights were wear specially design crafted armor that uses material found in the armor of one of the greatest Imperial duelist of all time, Darth Vader. Where Darth Vader's armor was built to intimidate as well protect, the Imperial Knights wear armor that is purely functional. That, combined with their lightsaber and Cortisis gauntlets, leaves them constantly prepared for combat no matter where they are.

-

The Imperial Knights are skilled with both the lightsaber and with the Force, and make extensive use of combat armor, including their special Cortisis gauntlets design to stop lightsaber attacks."

- Legacy Era Campaign Guide

Some accolades for imperial Knights to show how impressive beating them is. Funny thing is the comics focus on a few knights, and they are damn good. I mean we can wank other fodder that Revan or Vader beat, but not fodder like Imperial Gaurds. Whateves.

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WollfMyth

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#11  Edited By WollfMyth

@sirfizzwhizz: HA! You using statements? And fodder Imperial Knights = fodder Jedi... good for them. MagnaGuards can beat fodder Jedi and Fisto blitzed them.

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sirfizzwhizz

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@sirfizzwhizz: HA! You using statements? And fodder Imperial Knights = fodder Jedi... good for them. MagnaGuards can beat fodder Jedi and Fisto blitzed them.

What are you talking about? I was showing Imperial Knights statements are impressive, and what few Imperial Knights we see in the comics (three come to mind, though their names escape me) proved very formidable to the main characters or other One Sith. So they are not some low level padawans or fodder knights. The statements back this as well with their strictly martial trained styles and uniqe saber forms to them. As well the great gear load out they have. They are pretty damn good as fodder and rank up there with Magna Droids as fodder IMO. Sure Fisto could beat them, that was not my point.

But then again, whateves.

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Godzilla_BK

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@wollfmyth:

For a like 3 bladelocks, then she started using Force powers.

It was longer than you are suggesting. And regardless, in their final confrontation, she had the upper hand for the entirety of the fight until she left in order to release Antares Draco to Cade.

Huzzah for killing fodder that only served to die to make herself look cool.

Sounds a lot like what Kit Fisto is doing 99% of the time.

What motivates Cade to be a so far better duelist than Fisto that Talon holding her own against him for a few panels would mark her a his equal?

The fact that she has contested with opponents that are in a similar skill-set of the enemies Fisto has fought, as well as dealing with situations that easily equate or even surpass Kit Fisto's battlefield feats. Talon's position as Krayt's hand is easily comparable to Fisto's accolades as a duelist as well.

We don't know that. We only know Cade wanted to get to Krayt and that Talon just stood in his way and got thrown around by TK.

That's not the only encounter I am speaking of.

Much like Fisto's duels with the MagnaGuards.

Right. I am saying that they are easily comparable.

These aren't his only achievements. He wrecked AotC Kenobi in spars despite deliberetly hampering his speed and skill and holding back, and Obi knew immediately he was his inferior.

Talon possesses a different skill-set than AotC Kenobi and will be implementing force attacks, physical strikes, and use of her environment via TK against Fisto, as she does frequently.

So? It's not like he's fighting multiple Force sensitives. Unless Talon can clone herself.

If combating multiple opponents is irrelevant, why even bring up Kit's feats against Magnaguards? Magnaguards can't use the force either,so naturally the Jedi/Imperial Knights would pose greater threat, especially considering the accolades surrounding the specific characters she has fought (i.e Marrassiah Fel's bodyguard/mentor) and the Imperial Knights as a whole.

Given Fisto's superior speed and reflex feats to Talon(baffling JK Droids, baffling Obi-Wan Kenobi, speedblitzing MagnaGuards, etc.) he could deflect it.

100% of the time? All while going through his own combative sequences? No matter what sort of lightsaber maneuver, physical strike, force attack, etc she uses to off-balance her opponent? I don't think so. These feats you are speaking of are regarding more physical movement rather than actual deflection anyways. He can evade them out together, but just cause he possibly could, doesn't mean he will 100% given the circumstances of the fight and his opponent.

How when Shii-Cho is described as being randomized?

Being randomized insinuates lapses in both offensive and defensive openings. Shii-Cho's weakness to 1v1 combat is proof of this, regardless of Fisto's immense refinement of the fighting style.

Based on what does Cade use Juyo?

I believe it is stated in the Legacy RolePlaying Guide, but I will check. Regardless, his unrelenting offensive and his blood-lust/battle fervor make it a reasonable inference. What other form would you speculate?

Anyways, Fisto has superior unarmed/martial skill

Ok

equal/superior dueling skill

Which is it, equal or superior? I've already addressed this, am I to take it you are you agreeing he is equal?

superior speed and strength

Speed, yeah. Strength? Based on what?

probably equal or potentially superior TK.

Based on what? Kit has broken the force barriers of several force sensitives, and has smashed through rock with TK alone. And again, she has force lightning which Fisto has little answer for. And Fisto's feats underwater with his TK are circumstantial, and not applicable here.

So I'd say he wins this.

I still disagree.

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TheVivas

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@sirfizzwhizz: I think the three you're referring to are Antares Draco, Ganner Kreig, and another third one that I actually can't remember (Marssiah Fel maybe?).

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@thevivas: one young guy who was head of the Knights, the grey hair old guy stuck with the calamari, and then the female chick who fought a few battles at Cades side.

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WollfMyth

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@godzilla_bk:

It was longer than you are suggesting.

No it wasn't:

No Caption Provided

This, and a brief bladelock with Wolf Sazen, is all we see from her battle with them before she used her Force powers.

And regardless, in their final confrontation, she had the upper hand for the entirety of the fight until she left in order to release Antares Draco to Cade.

She never had the upper hand. And Shado Vao on his own stalemated Talon:

No Caption Provided

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Sounds a lot like what Kit Fisto is doing 99% of the time.

> Implying MagnaGuards, Obi-Wan or Grievous are fodder

> Top-KEK

The fact that she has contested with opponents that are in a similar skill-set of the enemies Fisto has fought,

And mostly lost to them. Also, none of them have Fisto's skill set. And feats and how said feats are achieved > black and white skill sets. Obviously they play a part, but general capability to compensate for the forms disadvantages and additional technical skill is more important.

as well as dealing with situations that easily equate or even surpass Kit Fisto's battlefield feats.

So it's better than Fisto killing droids? That's obvious.

Talon's position as Krayt's hand is easily comparable to Fisto's accolades as a duelist as well.

Hand = one of the top enforcers of that time. Fisto's accolades = one of the greatest Jedi to ever be produced by the order, being a contemporary of Agen and Saesee(the latter stalemated Mace, the former stomped Vos). I'd say Fisto's better.

That's not the only encounter I am speaking of.

That's the only encounter when they locked blades that Cade used his power to win. No other time when they fought in a duel did Talon force him to use telekinesis. Only when Cade was trapped or didn't have any lightsaber to begin with did he actually use TK to beat her.

Right. I am saying that they are easily comparable.

With Fisto being better.

Talon possesses a different skill-set than AotC Kenobi

They both used Ataru, though. And if anything, this further aids Fisto as Kenobi's skill set(a mixture of Shien, Soresu and Ataru) is more well suited to counter Fisto's offense.

and will be implementing force attacks,

Which will not help her against someone who is equivalently or more powerful than her.

physical strikes,

Something Fisto can easily counter with his durability(he tanked Durge's electric-pulsed claws, a nearby explosion and a flamethrower and went on like it was nothing) And considering he's the superior unarmed combatant he'll likely respond in kind with greater effect.

and use of her environment via TK against Fisto, as she does frequently.

Shame this is neutral ground, isn't it?

If combating multiple opponents is irrelevant, why even bring up Kit's feats against Magnaguards?

I'm saying Fisto not being seen fighting two enemies at once is irrelevant.

Magnaguards can't use the force either,so naturally the Jedi/Imperial Knights would pose greater threat, especially considering the accolades surrounding the specific characters she has fought (i.e Marrassiah Fel's bodyguard/mentor) and the Imperial Knights as a whole.

It's funny you say that because MagnaGuards were specifically designed that one would be capable of beating your average Jedi. So beating a MagnaGuard is at least as impressive as beating an average Jedi.

100% of the time? All while going through his own combative sequences? No matter what sort of lightsaber maneuver, physical strike, force attack, etc she uses to off-balance her opponent? I don't think so. These feats you are speaking of are regarding more physical movement rather than actual deflection anyways.

Physical reactions and speed is exactly what's needed to actually deflect lightning. If Fisto sees it coming(which given his superior reflexes he will) he can just easily counter it. Especially considering someone less skilled and slower than Fisto(i.e. Shado Vao) did.

He can evade them out together, but just cause he possibly could, doesn't mean he will 100% given the circumstances of the fight and his opponent.

This is a double standard. If Kit Fisto could possibly evade/deflect her lightning, but it's not 100 % sure he will, then it's not 100 % sure Talon will zap him with lightning either and actually succeed in hitting her mark. Given Fisto's speed and reflexes, the former just seems more likely as he can see the attack coming and defend himself against it.

Being randomized insinuates lapses in both offensive and defensive openings.

Being randomized insinuates being predictable and repeating lapeses in offenses and defenses? KEK. And neither Grievous or Kenobi could actually take advantage of these lapses so why would Talon?

Shii-Cho's weakness to 1v1 combat is proof of this,

It's broad, wide and unprecise attacks and defenses is why it's weak for single combat.

regardless of Fisto's immense refinement of the fighting style.

Which definitely factors in here.

I believe it is stated in the Legacy RolePlaying Guide, but I will check. Regardless, his unrelenting offensive and his blood-lust/battle fervor make it a reasonable inference. What other form would you speculate?

It can be Shii-Cho, Djem So, Ataru, heck even Makashi can be highly offensive if used in such a manner(take Malak as an example).

Which is it, equal or superior? I've already addressed this, am I to take it you are you agreeing he is equal?

They're comparable enough but if anyone's superior it'd be Fisto.

Speed, yeah. Strength? Based on what?

Him matching Grievous, pressuring Obi-Wan, wrecking droids and groups of X'Tings.

Based on what? Talon has broken the force barriers of several force sensitives, and has smashed through rock with TK alone.

Good for her. Ahsoka can break through Force Barriers and Fisto hurling a ship, lifting and rolling around a several meter tall canister with ease and being implied to have superior power to Obi-Wan circa AotC should rival/surpass Talon's own feats.

And again, she has force lightning which Fisto has little answer for.

Little answer for? He has his lightsaber, and superior reflexes.

And Fisto's feats underwater with his TK are circumstantial, and not applicable here.

Why not? His only feat underwater that isn't applicable here would be his Water Orb, which isn't TK. The rest of his feats are showings of telekinetic magnitude and skill which would definitely apply here. It being underwater is of little relevance as he can bring the same amount of power here. It's like me saying Talon's TK doesn't matter cuz she was in a forest.

I still disagree.

Obviously. Hence the debate.

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Brightsteel

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@wollfmyth:

It's like me saying Talon's TK doesn't matter cuz she was in a forest.

THE FOREST AMPS HER, M8.

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Godzilla_BK

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#20  Edited By Godzilla_BK

@wollfmyth: I was referring to her encounter with Cade being longer than 3 bladelocks. Not against Shado Vao and Wolf Sazen. I even mentioned her release of Antares Draco; this is towards the end of the Legacy series.

She never had the upper hand. And Shado Vao on his own stalemated Talon:

That's a good showing on Vao's part, not a bad one on Talon's. And blasting away Sazen with TK, off-balancing them with physical strikes and force attacks, as well as posing serious threat to the lot of them (both Jedi and Imperial Knights) is having the upperhand.Even if it weren't stalemating the lot of them is impressive enough.

> Implying MagnaGuards, Obi-Wan or Grievous are fodder

Kit Fisto wasn't fighting Obi-wan or Grievous 99% of time. He was fighting blaster wielders and droids 99% of the time.

And mostly lost to them. Also, none of them have Fisto's skill set. And feats and how said feats are achieved > black and white skill sets. Obviously they play a part, but general capability to compensate for the forms disadvantages and additional technical skill is more important.

She did not mostly lose. She lost to Cade Skywalker whom had the advantage of literally sparring with her constantly for months straight just previously, as well as a serious force advantage.

So it's better than Fisto killing droids? That's obvious.

Then you shouldn't have asked me the original question in the first place

Hand = one of the top enforcers of that time. Fisto's accolades = one of the greatest Jedi to ever be produced by the order

"Despite her relative inexperience, Darth Talon is still one of the most formidable lightsaber duelists within the Order."

"The Twi'lek Sith Lord is fast, agile and has a diverse array of skills that makes her one of the most deadly combatants around."

"A select few Sith Lords are given the title of Emperor's Hand, a tradition that Darth Krayt has resurrected from the days of Palpatine. These Hands function as the Emperor's agents throughout the galaxy, performing secret tasks at Krayt's whim. The position of Emperor's Hand is one of great honor, and it is fought over among the Sith Lords viciously."

"being a contemporary of Agen and Saesee(the latter stalemated Mace, the former stomped Vos). I'd say Fisto's better."

He's a contemporary, that means he has existed in the same time, not that he was equally skilled. Yarael Poof and Adi Gallia are their contemporaries too, are you going to argue that they are equally skillful duelists as well?

That's the only encounter when they locked blades that Cade used his power to win. No other time when they fought in a duel did Talon force him to use telekinesis. Only when Cade was trapped or didn't have any lightsaber to begin with did he actually use TK to beat her.

Wrong.

No Caption Provided

It's funny you say that because MagnaGuards were specifically designed that one would be capable of beating your average Jedi.

So basically Jedi fodder that are designed to make Magnaguards look cool?

So beating a MagnaGuard is at least as impressive as beating an average Jedi.

Magnaguards aren't force sensitive, so I disagree.

Physical reactions and speed is exactly what's needed to actually deflect lightning. If Fisto sees it coming(which given his superior reflexes he will) he can just easily counter it. Especially considering someone less skilled and slower than Fisto(i.e. Shado Vao) did.

Just like how Kit Fisto was punched in the face and stunned by a non force-sensitive, blaster-wielding, no-name opponent and saw it coming. Just like how he was sliced across the chest by Durge and saw it coming. Fact is, he isn't going to see it coming or effectively defend himself 100% of the time And I think it's safe to say lightning is a wee bit faster.

This is a double standard. If Kit Fisto could possibly evade/deflect her lightning, but it's not 100 % sure he will, then it's not 100 % sure Talon will zap him with lightning either and actually succeed in hitting her mark.

Obviously. It's still an advantage Talon holds over Fisto.

Being randomized insinuates being predictable and repeating lapeses in offenses and defenses? KEK.

Apparently so, given that Shii-Cho holds an inherent weakness to 1v1 combat. There is a reason why the form is so effective against multiple opponents on the battlefield and not 1v1 dueling. I'll take the laughter as a concession of this point, seeing as you have failed to rebuttal.

And neither Grievous or Kenobi could actually take advantage of these lapses so why would Talon?

I'm not impressed by the goofy and inconsistent TCW Grievous, he couldn't even kill Ahsoka. And again, Shii-Cho is likely the perfect form for combatting Grievous in the first place.

Talon is a more impressive Ataru user than AotC Kenobi, seeing as he began almost entirely relying on Soresu after he watched his master get dropped by Maul because the form was too tiring.Soresu isn't exactly the most aggressive style either, and given AotC Kenobi was far from his prime it really comes to no surprise. And they were sparring, not trying to kill one another.

It's broad, wide and unprecise attacks and defenses is why it's weak for single combat.

Yeah, I know; lapses in defense like I said earlier. So I guess you must agree with me now.

Which definitely factors in here.

Never said it didn't. But it's not enough.

It can be Shii-Cho, Djem So, Ataru,

Given the characteristics I had mentioned earlier, Juyo is much more likely. Especially given his time under the training of the Sith.

heck even Makashi can be highly offensive if used in such a manner(take Malak as an example).

Literally nothing in Cade's fighting style suggest Makashi.

They're comparable enough but if anyone's superior it'd be Fisto.

I was never saying Talon was the superior duelist. I've been saying equal, sounds like you are inclined to say so as well.

Him matching Grievous, pressuring Obi-Wan, wrecking droids and groups of X'Tings.

Already addressed this

Good for her. Ahsoka can break through Force Barriers and Fisto hurling a ship, lifting and rolling around a several meter tall canister with ease and being implied to have superior power to Obi-Wan circa AotC should rival/surpass Talon's own feats.

Lifting a canister isn't that impressive, especially considering it wasn't applied during combat. And AotC Obi-wan's power wasn't all that incredible.

See the scan I've provided above for her smashing through rock with incredible force with TK. I can provide more scans of her swiping away several of the Jedi and Imperial Knights of Legacy as well if you'd like.

When did Fisto hurl a ship?

Little answer for? He has his lightsaber, and superior reflexes.

Bad phrasing on my part. But again, this has been addressed. Can doesn't mean will.

Why not? His only feat underwater that isn't applicable here would be his Water Orb, which isn't TK. The rest of his feats are showings of telekinetic magnitude and skill which would definitely apply here. It being underwater is of little relevance as he can bring the same amount of power here.

Because if you watch the video he is condensing the water to be used as blunt object, and it is also easier to lift while in the water. Water wouldn't exactly be hard to manipulate if you have a way of creating a current and a way of condensing.

It being underwater is of little relevance as he can bring the same amount of power here.

Which isn't as much power as you're making it seem for the reasons I've stated.

It's like me saying Talon's TK doesn't matter cuz she was in a forest.

Lol it's not like saying that at all; being under water and being a forest are two completely different things, obviously. He has no water to use to create a blunt object with, and has to deal with a higher force of gravity.

Obviously. Hence the debate.

Not obvious, seeing as you didn't get my reply until that moment.

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WollfMyth209

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@godzilla_bk:

I was referring to her encounter with Cade being longer than 3 bladelocks. Not against Shado Vao and Wolf Sazen. I even mentioned her release of Antares Draco; this is towards the end of the Legacy series.

I was referring to her encounter with the duo, though. And we never saw that encounter. We know they fought for some time and we know Cade was dominating.

That's a good showing on Vao's part, not a bad one on Talon's. And blasting away Sazen with TK, off-balancing them with physical strikes and force attacks, as well as posing serious threat to the lot of them (both Jedi and Imperial Knights) is having the upperhand.Even if it weren't stalemating the lot of them is impressive enough.

The thing is: It's not valid as a pure skill showing. It's a good example of overall effectiveness, but not just skill.

Kit Fisto wasn't fighting Obi-wan or Grievous 99% of time. He was fighting blaster wielders and droids 99% of the time.

There was implications to suggest he sparred frequently with others. And Talon's not really in much of a different scenario, besides her foes just having a lightsaber and limited training with the Force.

She did not mostly lose.

Lost against Cade. Stalemated Shado Vao and beat fodder Imperial Knights.

She lost to Cade Skywalker whom had the advantage of literally sparring with her constantly for months straight just previously,

Double standard again. She would've also been familiar with Cade's style.

as well as a serious force advantage.

Which only helped him win like once. And the rest of the time it was his skill.

Then you shouldn't have asked me the original question in the first place

Never did.

"Despite her relative inexperience, Darth Talon is still one of the most formidable lightsaber duelists within the Order."

"The Twi'lek Sith Lord is fast, agile and has a diverse array of skills that makes her one of the most deadly combatants around."

"A select few Sith Lords are given the title of Emperor's Hand, a tradition that Darth Krayt has resurrected from the days of Palpatine. These Hands function as the Emperor's agents throughout the galaxy, performing secret tasks at Krayt's whim. The position of Emperor's Hand is one of great honor, and it is fought over among the Sith Lords viciously."

Good accolades. This marked her as one of the greats of her time. Fisto was one of the greats since the beginning of the Jedi Order.

He's a contemporary, that means he has existed in the same time,

No, because then Ahsoka would be a contemporary.

not that he was equally skilled. Yarael Poof and Adi Gallia are their contemporaries too, are you going to argue that they are equally skillful duelists as well?

It's funny because Fisto's accolade pertains directly to skill, not just them serving side-by-side. In Obi-Wan's mind he was on par/above Luminara and on the same level as Shaak and in Shaak's mind he, Agen and Tiin were the greatest swordsmen of the Order of the Temple at the time(when Yoda and Obi weren't there).

Wrong.

That showing had Talon use Force powers and Cade(who put away his lightsaber) redirect it. She didn't force him to use his power through skill, she forced him to use his power through her own power.

So basically Jedi fodder that are designed to make Magnaguards look cool?

Nice lowballing.

Magnaguards aren't force sensitive, so I disagree.

Why the hell does it matter if they aren't? They were made for killing Jedi. One MagnaGuard was specifically made for the purpose to counter and kill one Jedi. Therefore one MagnaGuard is above one average Jedi. It's not hard logic to follow. Unless it's one of those TCW MagnaGuards that are inconsistent as f.

Just like how Kit Fisto was punched in the face and stunned by a non force-sensitive, blaster-wielding, no-name opponent and saw it coming.

When he tried to use a Mind Trick and negotiation and had his guard down.

Just like how he was sliced across the chest by Durge and saw it coming.

This same Durge that beat up Kenobi and landed hits on Grievous. It's more a good feat for Durge than a bad feat for Grievous.

Fact is, he isn't going to see it coming or effectively defend himself 100% of the time And I think it's safe to say lightning is a wee bit faster.

Fact is: neither is Talon going to use it 100% of the time. She's more of a TK woman, if anything.

Apparently so, given that Shii-Cho holds an inherent weakness to 1v1 combat. There is a reason why the form is so effective against multiple opponents on the battlefield and not 1v1 dueling.

That's not why Shii-Cho is weak against multiple opponents. It's due to it being unprecise and more broad and wide in it's attacks. And it's illogical to assume that

I'll take the laughter as a concession of this point, seeing as you have failed to rebuttal.

I can take the majority of your points as a concession, as well. As most of them make no sense whatsoever and are double standards.

I'm not impressed by the goofy and inconsistent TCW Grievous,

You're dismissing it based on principal, then? No actual valid arguments? I'll take this as a concession. I mean, Grievous is by all-things quite inconsistent but he still managed to actually give Kenobi a fight of his life in TCW in all seasons, so I'd say he's more than likely skilled.

he couldn't even kill Ahsoka.

Ahsoka. The top padawan of her time, a Jedi Legends, and a girl who held off Asajj Ventress briefly. I'd say needing 30 seconds to defeat her isn't bad. It's more a good feat for Ahsoka. I love your cherry-picking, though. I mention how Talon has trouble with Vao and you're like it's a good feat for Vao. You mention Grievous needing 30 seconds to beat Ahsoka and that must mean GG sucks.

And again, Shii-Cho is likely the perfect form for combatting Grievous in the first place.

So? It's still a matter of skill, as well.

Talon is a more impressive Ataru user than AotC Kenobi, seeing as he began almost entirely relying on Soresu after he watched his master get dropped by Maul because the form was too tiring.

That's also perfect for my case, as Soresu is far better to use in combat against an aggressive and skilled enemy like Fisto than Ataru.

Soresu isn't exactly the most aggressive style either, and given AotC Kenobi was far from his prime it really comes to no surprise.

Fisto was also "far from his prime" at the time, as well. He also fought a war and faced enemies that Obi-Wan faced.

And they were sparring, not trying to kill one another.

Yes, but for the entire spar Obi was trying his hardest to at least do something, whereas Fisto was limiting his speed and making himself as clunky as possible on purpose.

Yeah, I know; lapses in defense like I said earlier. So I guess you must agree with me now.

For a normal Shii-Cho user, I might. For Fisto, definitely not. He's demonstrated some solid defenses on his own, actually. And during the battle of Mon Calamari(OCW 2003) he had an extremely stonch defense.

Never said it didn't. But it's not enough.

Yes it is.

Given the characteristics I had mentioned earlier, Juyo is much more likely. Especially given his time under the training of the Sith.

It's funny because Sith Warriors are also noted for mastering Djem So and Ataru along side Juyo. It doesn't automatically have to be Juyo.

Literally nothing in Cade's fighting style suggest Makashi.

I know. I'm saying just because it's aggressive it doesn't mean shite.

I was never saying Talon was the superior duelist. I've been saying equal, sounds like you are inclined to say so as well.

I'm incliend to say they are comparable enough with Fisto being more likely the superior.

Already addressed this

Failed to.

Lifting a canister isn't that impressive, especially considering it wasn't applied during combat.

Considering the size of the thing, it is. It was quite enourmous. And given how easily he performed it, he can likely bring a similar amount of power in combat.

And AotC Obi-wan's power wasn't all that incredible.

He was one of the most powerful Jedi of his time and he pulled a Jedi Cruiser by the nose and flipped it while injured and piloting said Jedi Cruiser(this was, albeit, 3 months after AotC, but the difference is likely negligable). So I'd say it's definitely worth something.

See the scan I've provided above for her smashing through rock with incredible force with TK.

https://youtu.be/3QMfCE_1R9U?t=7

I can provide more scans of her swiping away several of the Jedi and Imperial Knights of Legacy as well if you'd like.

No need, I have them for myself.

When did Fisto hurl a ship?

Hurls a ship and dispatches an Aqua Droid
Hurls a ship and dispatches an Aqua Droid

And no water excuses. He visibly gripped the ship and he had the force of the water against him.

Bad phrasing on my part. But again, this has been addressed. Can doesn't mean will.

This can also apply with Talon.

Because if you watch the video he is condensing the water to be used as blunt object,

Only one visible note is made of that; when he caused the Water Orb.

and it is also easier to lift while in the water.

He ain't doing lifting, however. He's going against the water's tide and pushing objects(like the ship) downwards.

Water wouldn't exactly be hard to manipulate if you have a way of creating a current and a way of condensing.

Controling large bodies of water is definitely hard. And again, we have no indication if Fisto was creatign a current or not.

Which isn't as much power as you're making it seem for the reasons I've stated.

Yes, it is.

Lol it's not like saying that at all; being under water and being a forest are two completely different things, obviously. He has no water to use to create a blunt object with, and has to deal with a higher force of gravity.

He won't need to create a blunt object, he as telekinesis. And honestly it's easier to manipulate objects on land than on water as then you'd be going against the entire tide of the water itself.

Not obvious, seeing as you didn't get my reply until that moment.

Just because I don't answer your reply immediately doesn't mean it's not obviously a debate, lol.

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This is truly horrendous reading.

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ricochicomalico

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Bump.

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LordOfTheLight

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Bump.

Could go either way.

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GuildSeal

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I'd back Fisto for a 7-8/10 majority.

He's likely the better duelists and I haven't really seen anything from Talon suggesting she's more powerful, only that she uses the force more in combat.

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Greysentinel365

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#27  Edited By Greysentinel365

I would side Talon. Her contention with Cade, even until the end of the series impresses me more.

Very close fight though.

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I've probably underestimated Darth Talon in the past in light of her position as the weakest of the "main" Legacy Sith. I still don't think she'd win a majority over Kit Fisto, but she'd give him a very good fight.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#30  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

Fisto. Matching Sazen + Vao may be better than outfighting Grievous and carving up two top-level MagnaGuards rather quickly, however it's not by a good margin and Fisto has greater accolades. Plus he is faster, and this IS by a good margin. Kit literally reacted to Sidious before Mace did. He was the first one to touch blades, and he did so one or two times more without Mace's help. He and Mace then proceeded to bracket Sidious in between them and take the offensive, which completely blows anything Talon has done out of the water.

So yeah, Fisto.

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#31  Edited By Greysentinel365

@greysentinel365 said:

I would side Talon. Her contention with Cade, even until the end of the series impresses me more.

Very close fight though.

It's funny how my placement and how I gauge each of their power has changed but a match between the two of them ends the same.

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Talon has better feats overall.

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WollfMyth209

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#33  Edited By WollfMyth209
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I think that Talon can win this.

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Masma94

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Talon imo.

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Probably talon, she was a top dog in almost all of cades story and even till her final fight with him did very well against him. Although fisto will put up a fight

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Lord_Tenebrous

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Fisto by statements was one of the 5 top Jedi duelists of his time. He wins.

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Fisto favorite although I want to say Talon. Characters like this should be canonized

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talon_negs

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#40  Edited By talon_negs

Talon one shots

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ExiledUhu

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#41  Edited By ExiledUhu

Fisto with some difficulty.