Kirak Infil'a vs Ven Zallow

Kirak Infil'a

Ven Zallow

In character

Even ground

Force

Sabers

All out

Star Wars Callouts:

Zallow again.

Zallow. Kirak's performance against Vader is already overrated.

Zallow blitzes.

Kirak has an accolade putting him above rots Kenobi, iirc, he stomps

@kbroskywalker: No he doesn't. The "more powerful Jedi than Vader has ever faced before" comes from the Marvel comic promotion site Not the comic itself. I doubt it's official.

Also the comic itself takes the time to distinguish

When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former Chosen One must take his first steps to a darker world... as Darth Vader,

Star Wars Darth Vader :The Chosen One part I

That Anakin fought Kenobi on Mustafar and Vader is the one going forward.

So no. There is nothing to indicate Kirak>Kenobi.

Zallow.

Why was this thread even made? Kirak doesn't even have any feats save for resisting a Force Choke from Vader at his weakest.

Feats for Kirak? In any case the majority are going Zallow, and I hold Zallow higher then most...A good sign that he should win this convincingly.

Zallow, yeah.

Zallow wins.

@frankenmidget: Zallow then.

@greysentinel365:

Well, guess kirak's been debunked, at least until he gets more feats

Zallow. Kirak was close to a Vader that had only recently learned how to walk in his suit.

I'd just like to point out that Lords of the Sith stated Vader got more powerful in the Force from when he was Anakin. Resisting even an early career Vader is beastly.

Saying "this was just a Vader who had just learned to walk" doesn't mean Kirak was fighting a punk.

@banthabot: The comic occurs immediately right after RotS in which Vader was still weaker than Anakin, Lords of the Sith takes place 5 years later.

Sidious knew that Vader's broken body made him weaker than before, but tested his apprentice's connection to the dark side by telling him that he had caused Padmé's death. The intensity of Vader's anguish and self-hatred made it clear that he still possessed great power.

Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery

@frankenmidget: 8 years, not 5. And fair enough, even in Canon Vader became weaker in the suit at first. However, you are missing the point. The quote doesn't imply that he was significantly weakened. "He still possessed great power "

Even a slightly weakened Anakin is a damn power house.

8 years after the Clone Wars, not RotS. RotS took place 19 BBY , LotS during 14.

True but we don't know by how much and it's likely that he was amped during his outburst after being told of Padmé's death considering that he was able to pin Sidious with TK.

@jerrah13 Wouldn't that mean that Sids was just testing Vader and didn't have his active defenses up when he was pinned?

@kbroskywalker: His hands were up after being thrown into the wall, indicating he was actively attempting to resist Vader's force grip. As Kirak showed, being caught by the Force doesn't render one helpless. Unlike Kirak, Palps gave Vader the choice to release the hold on his own before things got messy.

It's also important to remember that the exert from the databank was put in long before this comic series was even conceptualized and only referred to the instant we see on film where Vader steps forward after destroying the medical droids. In that moment, we see Palpatine smiling because he now has a committed soldier to the dark side. If we extend the databank claim to the start of the comic, it doesn't change the fact Palps is visibly taken aback by Vader's show of power and felt the need to admonish him by using lightning to remind him who was in control.

As far as Kirak being more powerful than any Jedi Vader has faced so far, it comes through direct channels from Marvel, who are also owned by Disney and like all SW media, must be cleared by the LucasFilm Story Group before release. So despite minimal showings, the official word has Kirak scaling to RotS Kenobi, Cin Drallig (featless), etc. Which makes sense given that he's a Jedi who trains solely for combat.

Kirak is extremely stupid and ignorant about how powerful a Sith Master would be, and he really thinks that he can take on a Sith Master on his own when he says he will kill Vader's master after he defeated Vader. He is very confident about his fighting skills that's for sure. But it's probably something like Kenobi and Yoda thing in RotS, Kenobi also believed that he can take on Sidious but Yoda wake him up by saying that he would be no match for Lord Sidious so he needs to face with Anakin instead. Kirak's claim should be similar to this.

Still, Vader was a solid level 8 fighter in the RotS, and I see no reason why he should lose his position after his injury. Maul defeated TCW S4 Kenobi in Turtle Tanker duel shortly after getting his new legs. He was still a level 8. Vader was no different. He was still powerful but he gets trashed by Kirak (mostly because of his injured leg but it's still impressive) and he failed overpower him with the Force. Kirak must be at least a level 8 fighter, and imo he must be better than Zallow, especially in the Force.

LOTS Vader<<ROTS Anakin. He increased his connection, yeah, but that hardly translates into actual power.

@erkan12:

It's more that Obi-Wan would've preferred to face Palpatine and ultimately his death than have to go through with fighting the person he thought of as his brother. Obi-Wan knows how powerful the Sith are. He was just looking for an alternative to avoid having to do the one thing he believed would break him emotionally.

In this instance, Kirak has regulated himself strictly to combat training and can hold his own against a fresh off the table Vader. Whether he can actually contend with the likes of Yoda, Palps and Mace remains to be seen.

Not sure if you're trolling, but we've been over this. Increased connection = stronger force user.

Leland Chee's quote confirms Vader losing his limbs didn't decrease his Force connectivity, meaning the only place he has to go on the scale is up. But if you want to be one of those "hurr hurr faets 0nLy" crowd, it translates as Vader anchoring himself in the Force during the attack on Ryloth and again when he tears open Vulture droids and chokes people out mid-dogfight. It translates as Vader containing the explosion of a grenade while simultaneously choking two clone troopers or by parting the water in a reservoir. It translates as Vader being capable of tutaminis by the time of RO. All high-level accolades that eclipse anything Anakin ever did. And let's not pretend like Anakin moved any planets in RotS. His force feats in the film are very tame.

You can deny it all you want, but Vader's increase in power from RotS to LotS is a natural progression of ability through training. Identical to Anakin's development from AotC to RotS.

@jerrah13:

No, I am not trolling. Connection =/= actualized power. Anakin had a connection to the Force that allowed him to become twice more powerful as Sidious. As of ROTS, he had that connection. Was he twice more powerful than Sidious? No, he wasn't.

And Anakin canonically lost 120% of his Force potential, which is permitted by his connection, when he got into the suit. He might have increased his connection since he got the suit. But certainly not from when he was Anakin. And Anakin has much better feats anyway. Vader's Rebels iteration which is better than his LOTS iteration has some low end feats that make him Anakin's vast inferior.

Lucas' claim of lost potential is no longer definitive, as Chee's statement confirmed an individual's force power is not reduced with the loss of living tissue. By LotS, Vader's connection to the Force allowed him to use more of its power than he could as Anakin. The evidence indicates that his connectivity remained the same, but the power he could draw on was greater than before; by virtue of having five additional years to develop. And no, Anakin's collective feats from TCW pale in comparison to what Vader has done thus far. Fact.

lol At using Rebels only feats to low-ball Vader. Fanboys are really grasping to hold on to their deluded Legends fantasy of Anakin Skyfather. #NoLongerCanon

@jerrah13 said:

Lucas' claim of lost potential is no longer definitive,

Why?

as Chee's statement confirmed an individual's force power is not reduced with the loss of living tissue.

Well, Lucas confirmed he lost his potential by 120%. Lucas said it, then it's like that. End of story.

By LotS, Vader's connection to the Force allowed him to use more of its power than he could as Anakin.

His connection to the Force =/= his actualized power. Vader factually lost 120% of his connection. And he probably increased his connection since he got on to the suit, not from when he was Anakin.

And no, Anakin's collective feats from TCW pale in comparison to what Vader has done thus far.

Yeah, right. Anakin Skywalker stomped Asajj Ventress in TCW before undergoing a vast power growth.

Let's look at some of Ventress' best feats, shall we?

Before recieving any training in the Dark Side of the Force, she collapsed a ceiling made of gigantic rocks.

While considerably pre-prime, she nearly crushed the heart of Master Fay:

While considerably pre-prime, she casually threw a large pillar.

While pre-prime, she caused an avalanche.

While considerably pre-prime, she stomped Ahsoka Tano. Yeah, this is Tano early in her Padawan days, but she is already gifted enough in the Force to hold her own against three early CW MagnaGuards.

As she lunged, Ventress decided Skywalker would not be lured into showing himself, and whipped Ahsoka’s lightsaber from her hand with a figure-eight movement before slamming her flat with a Force push and holding her there with an outstretched hand.

The Clone Wars movie novel

(Canon) She blasted Quinlan Vos away. Yeah, the new DD Quin who's OP.

Violently, she shoved Vos away, putting the Force into the movement so powerfully that he was hurled across the room.

Dark Disciple

She ragdolled a Jedi Master.

Ragdolling this woman surpasses, by a large margin, anything LOTS Vader has done.

lol At using Rebels only feats to low-ball Vader.

Rebels Vader failed to floor Kanan Jarrus with a Force Push, while going full-out as stated by Starwars.com:

TCW Anakin dominated Ventress. Someone who is much better than Kanan.

Fanboys are really grasping to hold on to their deluded Legends

People using Legends in debates isn't deluded fanboyism. Nearly everyone here on the Vine does it. I do.

^

thesithmaster said:

Well, Lucas confirmed he lost his potential by 120%. Lucas said it, then it's like that. End of story.

Lucas is no longer in charge and the new evidence supports Vader retaining all the power he had pre-Mustafar. Perhaps you'd like me to once again reiterate Chee's comment proving Vader lost none of his connectivity? Or are you simply incapable of processing the information because it conflicts with your misconceptions that we're still living in a world of Legends and Wankfall Vader?

His connection to the force increased. This is stated fact that your opinon will not override. There is also confirmation from Chee confirming Vader's power did not decrease post-Mustafar. His connectivity is the same as it was when he was Anakin. What he can do with that connectivity is beyond Anakin.

Yeah, right. Anakin Skywalker stomped Asajj Ventress in TCW before undergoing a vast power growth.

Nice attempt to deflect by showing a bunch of Ventress gifs, half of which are non-canon, rather than what Anakin ACTUALLY DID in TCW. Maybe next time show the scenes of when Anakin tore apart a vulture droid in the middle of a dogfight. Or when he anchored himself to prevent bouncing around a shuttle cabin. What's that, he didn't do any of those things? Didn't think so.

Hey isn't that the same Ventress who's canonically inferior to Maul? The same guy who openly admitted he could not challenge Vader on his own and who is canonically inferior to him as a duelist? The same Vader who is officially recognized as being a better duelist than his master by the time of Rebels/ANH, the same master Vader's younger self never managed to reach, much less surpass?

Sorry, I got wrapped up in stating facts. You had some more unsupported Legends content to give?

Good effort, now try again after you've learned to distinguish Legends from Canon and present an argument without any material from the former.

Rebels Vader failed to floor Kanan Jarrus with a Force Push, while going full-out as stated by Starwars.com

inb4 Filoni clarified that they had to make Vader PIS in order to justify the Rebels getting away in Siege of Lothal, and that he was very much against the idea because it diminishes the villian's effectiveness and intensity. It's almost like he knew the Anakin fanboys would use it to justify cheapening Vader's power...

Hey wait, didn't Anakin forget he could use force grip in Clone Wars and that's what got Clovis killed? WOW I guess that dude is complete trash compared to Ezra. Sad your only go tos are Rebels lowball and Legends Clone Wars, and neither of them hold up.

People using Legends in debates isn't deluded fanboyism. Nearly everyone here on the Vine does it. I do.

Everyone but me. No legends, no composite BS either. Strictly canon. Few, if any, of you seem capable of distinguishing the difference.

@jerrah13: I'm glad that there is someone that finally recognises the difference between the Legends and Canon continuities.

There's no such thing as "composite"; you either stick to Legends, or stick to Canon. Unlike you, though, I'm a Legends-only supporter.

Hey now I recognized it! But yes, separation of the two is needed.

Otherwise, there's stuff that can get confusing really quick.

So all this going on about Chee's statement yet no quote or source is provided about said statement. Interesting.

@wolfrazer: ah, yes, I've seen you around, spreading the holy message :)

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/833437960934662145

I also posted the link in zapan's canon Vader blog last week. It pays to do your research before making easily disprovable claims.

And it's fine if you want to stick with Legends, but when the discussion pertains to the current canon version of certain characters, a vast majority of the so-called "greatest SW debaters" here repeatedly hijack the topics and throw in non-canon feats from Legends material, which are non-applicable and it completely invalidates the match-up. Composite doesn't work in certain situations either, given that LucasFilm has retconned certain aspects and plot points that were present in the old continuity.

@jerrah13: I never made any claim that was easily disprovable. And tell me how does posting the link in a different thread relate to this one and my comment?

You're only twenty posts in, might want to get off your high horse there.

Actually you did. You said no source had been given, yet I posted said source a week earlier in a different thread. Something that could easily be found by checking the sparse 20 posts of mine you've been so quick to devalue.

No one's riding high here, partner. But given that you're the one who brought up comment quantity, like it has some grand significance when it comes to stating facts, tells me all I need to know about your mentality. So unless you have something to add to the actual discussion, kindly drop the falsified eminence you think comes with a big post count and we'll part ways here.

@jerrah13: Yeah, no source has been given "in this discussion". It's not my job to search for proof to your claim. You have to provide it yourself. That's kinda how things work, in case you didn't know (which it seems like you didn't, so your welcome).

Could have fooled me with how this thread is going down. The comment quantity does in this case have some sense of significance, seeing as how you think that other people should look up your proof for you because you posted it in another thread. Honestly, that's some of the most baffling logic I've ever heard.

My something to add to this thread was asking for actual proof of a statement that's been thrown around as fact when there was no proof to begin with. So like I said, you might want to get off your high horse with those twenty something posts until you learn to actually bring proof to back up your claims instead of "yeah well I posted it somewhere on this site so happy hunting".

k thanks. Nice attempt to bait, but I'll wait for the people who actually want to talk about Star Wars now.

@jerrah13: Whatever floats your boat new guy. You wanna debate poorly and have people look for your proof instead of you actually providing it, be my guest.

@jerrah13:

Hey isn't that the same Ventress who's canonically inferior to Maul?

Quote?

tend

I support separation but CV threads tend to have composite as one of the stipulations in the OP

@kbroskywalker: I'm not seeing composite in the OP. I see a strictly Canon character and a strictly Legends character.

I was saying in general

@kbroskywalker: Ah...yeeah....it's disturbing.

@kbroskywalker: there should be no Canon Vs. Legends match-ups, either. Canon characters are far slower, weaker, and less powerful than Legends characters (generally).

AEYNtK

Generally sure, but there's definitely cases where canon characters would destroy the vast majority of legends ones

@jerrah13:

IIRC, that was a fan voted thing, I don't think that's actually canon.