Kharn the Betrayer and Ahzek Ahriman vs Darth Vader and Darth Sidious Who wins?!?!

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Poll Kharn the Betrayer and Ahzek Ahriman vs Darth Vader and Darth Sidious Who wins?!?! (18 votes)

Kharn the Betrayer and Ahzek Ahriman easily win 56%
Kharn the Betrayer and Ahzek Ahriman barely win 6%
Darth Vader and Darth Sidious barely win 6%
Darth Vader and Darth Sidious easily win 28%
Could go either way/stalemate 6%

Kharn the Betrayer and Ahzek Ahriman

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Darth Vader and Darth Sidious

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Rules

  • Composite Lore for both sides; No cross over lore though for either side
  • Standard gear for both sides
  • No In fighting; Kharn wants their skulls for his God and Ahriman was told he will get entrance to the webway if he works with Kharn. Both sides are thus heavily determined to win
  • Win by Death
  • No prep
  • Random Encounter
  • No outside interference
  • Ahriman has a stable connection to the warp

Environment - Both sides start 100 meters apart from each other

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 • 
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kaijuking

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#2  Edited By kaijuking

Kharn should be immune to any force power. Ahriman is comparable to Sidious and way more hax.

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SWA2point0

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Theashensecond

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Vader alone is enough

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MordhauExtreme1

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Kharn should be immune tonany force power. Ahriman is comparable to Sidious and way more hax.

This

Vader alone is enough

lol no

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Theashensecond

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SW duo probably pull a win if they have legends feats

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MordhauExtreme1

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@theashensecond: lol no. Kharn's blessing from khorne makes him immune to any force attacks Vader wishes to do. Outside of that Kharn is a far superior fighter than Vader has and his stats out do anything vader could do. Kharn just has to scratch vader and vader's soul is sucked.

Ahriman can literally BFR him which he always does straight to the warp. Vader dies to either of them. The only person who matters is Sidious. Assuming Ahriman doesn't instantly BFR Sidious to the warp as well where he dies then Ahriman might take a 50/50 with Sidious due to both having insane Pre-cog, Ahriman however out does Sidious due to Time control in which he can put Sidious in a time lock and thus Kharn walks up and one shots.

so, lol no.

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kaijuking

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@theashensecond said:

Vader alone is enough

lol no

Agreed. SW fans think their guys on Ahriman level, oh boy. Sidious mind controls a planet, its a big deal. In 40K characters mind control star systems and reality warp planets, its a Tuesday.

No Caption Provided

This is how Ahirman and Kharn would talk to Sidious and Vader. Beings who ravage the war torn galaxy for 10,000 years to couple dip shits in a small time war, who barely made it past a single lifetime.

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@kaijuking:

Agreed. SW fans think their guys on Ahriman level, oh boy. Sidious mind controls a planet, its a big deal. In 40K characters mind control star systems and reality warp planets, its a Tuesday.

Agreed, even if Ahriman isn't as powerful lets say hes only planetary and Sidious is much higher. Ahriman has blood control, soul control, can turn Sidious into whatever cause I dont remember Sidious ever being transmutation resistant or immune

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along with pull phucking naruto move and just put up a million copies of himself. However if I'm not mistaken isn't actual magic in SWs ranked higher than the Force??

This is how Ahirman and Kharn would talk to Sidious and Vader. Beings who ravage the war torn galaxy for 10,000 years to couple dip shits in a small time war, who barely made it past a single lifetime.

Along with considering Kharn killed a million people in the Siege of Terra.... I'd say he has way more fighting experience against far more deadly fodder lol

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Theashensecond

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@mordhauextreme1 said:
@theashensecond said:

Vader alone is enough

lol no

Agreed. SW fans think their guys on Ahriman level, oh boy. Sidious mind controls a planet, its a big deal. In 40K characters mind control star systems and reality warp planets, its a Tuesday.

No Caption Provided

This is how Ahirman and Kharn would talk to Sidious and Vader. Beings who ravage the war torn galaxy for 10,000 years to couple dip shits in a small time war, who barely made it past a single lifetime.

Other way around if anything. WH neckbeards cum all over the room when someone stops time when even Valkorion has done that, yet he's below Plagueis.

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Theashensecond

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@theashensecond: lol no. Kharn's blessing from khorne makes him immune to any force attacks Vader wishes to do. Outside of that Kharn is a far superior fighter than Vader has and his stats out do anything vader could do. Kharn just has to scratch vader and vader's soul is sucked.

Ahriman can literally BFR him which he always does straight to the warp. Vader dies to either of them. The only person who matters is Sidious. Assuming Ahriman doesn't instantly BFR Sidious to the warp as well where he dies then Ahriman might take a 50/50 with Sidious due to both having insane Pre-cog, Ahriman however out does Sidious due to Time control in which he can put Sidious in a time lock and thus Kharn walks up and one shots.

so, lol no.

Vader can't die unless he fulfils the prophecy so won't happen.

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kaijuking

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@mordhauextreme1 said:

@theashensecond: lol no. Kharn's blessing from khorne makes him immune to any force attacks Vader wishes to do. Outside of that Kharn is a far superior fighter than Vader has and his stats out do anything vader could do. Kharn just has to scratch vader and vader's soul is sucked.

Ahriman can literally BFR him which he always does straight to the warp. Vader dies to either of them. The only person who matters is Sidious. Assuming Ahriman doesn't instantly BFR Sidious to the warp as well where he dies then Ahriman might take a 50/50 with Sidious due to both having insane Pre-cog, Ahriman however out does Sidious due to Time control in which he can put Sidious in a time lock and thus Kharn walks up and one shots.

so, lol no.

Vader can't die unless he fulfils the prophecy so won't happen.

Funny, Ahriman has a prophecy, as does Kharn through Khorne.

WH neckbeards cum all over the room

Says the SW neckbeard cumming over the room.....

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KarlHeisenberg

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#14  Edited By KarlHeisenberg

Ahhh, always good to see a measuring contest between SW fans and WH fans.

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#15  Edited By Darthor

LMAO, the idea that Sidious only mind-controlled a planet is plain ridiculous. He not only mind-controlled the entire Imperial military, consisting of Millions of Soldiers, but also have the capacity to mind-control the entire universe:

★) Emperor Palpatine holds together the entire Imperial Military through the dark side, to the point where it cannot function without him. This is an application of Dominate Mind.

For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos. Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive. For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.

Confusion.

Desperation.

Damp fear.

--Return of the Jedi novelization

C'baoth snorted. "So is this what you want me for, Grand Admiral Thrawn?" he asked scornfully. "To turn your ships into puppets for you?"

"Not at all, Master C'baoth," Thrawn told him, his voice perfectly calm again. "My analogy with combat borg implants was a carefully considered one. The Emperor's fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That, over the long run, is what did the damage. My wish is merely to have you enhance the coordination between ships and task forces - and then only at critical times and in carefully selected combat situations."

--Heir to the Empire

The Emperor, it had long been rumored, had had the ability to use the Force to exercise direct control over his military forces.

--The Last Command

With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear. The sudden loss of coordination and fighting spirit allowed Han Solo, Princess Leia and the Rebel Commandos to disable the shield generator.

--Heir to the Empire sourcebook

At the decisive Battle of Endor, the Jedi returned to aid the Alliance in the form of Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. The Emperor was killed, his fleet scattered, and his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed. Without its binding, the Empire began to unravel.

--Heir to the Empire sourcebook

Palpatine knew precisely why the Empire couldn’t last without his dread power: he had designed it that way. No one ever suspected how much he relied on the Dark Side of the Force. He shaped those of his government by using the Force against them. He used it to control his fleets and to drive his soldiers on to victory. He used it to destroy his enemies from a distance and learn of conspiracies against him. Without it, there was no way the Empire could endure, as he had designed it. The Dark Side flowed through him like some primordial ichor and was the key to all his power.

--Dark Empire Sourcebook

“Perhaps a few months ago, I would have scoffed at the idea of one man controlling or shaping the events of the galaxy through sheer force of will. I certainly did not agree with the Grand Admiral’s contention that the Imperial Navy’s loss at Endor was because were, in effect, enslaved to the Emperor, as if we were, in Thrawn’s words, ‘borg-implanted into a combat computer.’

“That was then. Now I see that the Grand Admiral, the worthiest successor to the Emperor’s throne to have yet appeared, was quite accurate in his assessment.”

--Gilad Pellaeon, The Last Command Sourcebook

Note: The Imperial Military consists of tens of trillions of individuals, meaning all of them were under Palpatine’s influence.

The Imperial military is a massive organization, with tens of trillions of regular Army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew and a vast force of Stormtroopers both cloned and conditioned.

--Rebellion Era Campaign Guide

It should also be noted that since Return of the Jedi was the first time that anyone had been removed from Palpatine’s influence given the amount of panic it incited, and that the quote which mentions Palpatine had designed the Empire to be reliant on his power, it can be inferred that Palpatine was maintaining his Mind Domination casually and passively ever since Revenge of the Sith.

(★) The Emperor Reborn can control everyone in the whole galaxy with the dark side.

In place of the Empire and the New Republic, Palpatine planned to bring about a new form of galactic governance. He would use the dark side to control everything and everyone in the galaxy.What's more, he was capable of it.

--Official Starships and Vehicle Collection #64

Note: The Galactic Empire, which contains more than one hundred quadrillion beings, is only a part of the whole galaxy. As such, the total number of beings would be much larger.

The known galaxy includes nearly a billion inhabited star systems, from uncharted settlements set up by smugglers to megapolis worlds where scarcely a meter of untouched ground remains. Nearly seventy million of those star systems were sufficiently populated for representation of some sort in the Galactic Empire, a vast bureucracy responsible for the affairs of more than one hundred quadrillion beings.

--The Essential Atlas

Even Unulthul can mind-control trillions of Killiks in the nest. So the idea that Sidious can only control a single planet is beyond ridiculous.

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Kharn and Ahriman dispose of the fodders.

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kaijuking

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Oh here we go. Sidious can mind control a universe LMAO KEK ROFL

Kharn and Ahriman dispose of the fodders.

Bamsky!

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@theashensecond said:

@mordhauextreme1 said:

@theashensecond: lol no. Kharn's blessing from khorne makes him immune to any force attacks Vader wishes to do. Outside of that Kharn is a far superior fighter than Vader has and his stats out do anything vader could do. Kharn just has to scratch vader and vader's soul is sucked.

Ahriman can literally BFR him which he always does straight to the warp. Vader dies to either of them. The only person who matters is Sidious. Assuming Ahriman doesn't instantly BFR Sidious to the warp as well where he dies then Ahriman might take a 50/50 with Sidious due to both having insane Pre-cog, Ahriman however out does Sidious due to Time control in which he can put Sidious in a time lock and thus Kharn walks up and one shots.

so, lol no.

Vader can't die unless he fulfils the prophecy so won't happen.

That's the biggest NFL I've ever heard, so what you're telling me is..... Even if HotU Thanos couldn't beat Vader because... he has to fulfil a prophecy?

No Caption Provided

@darthor said:

LMAO, the idea that Sidious only mind-controlled a planet is plain ridiculous. He not only mind-controlled the entire Imperial military, consisting of Millions of Soldiers, but also have the capacity to mind-control the entire universe:

★) Emperor Palpatine holds together the entire Imperial Military through the dark side, to the point where it cannot function without him. This is an application of Dominate Mind.

For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos. Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive. For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.

Confusion.

Desperation.

Damp fear.

--Return of the Jedi novelization

C'baoth snorted. "So is this what you want me for, Grand Admiral Thrawn?" he asked scornfully. "To turn your ships into puppets for you?"

"Not at all, Master C'baoth," Thrawn told him, his voice perfectly calm again. "My analogy with combat borg implants was a carefully considered one. The Emperor's fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That, over the long run, is what did the damage. My wish is merely to have you enhance the coordination between ships and task forces - and then only at critical times and in carefully selected combat situations."

--Heir to the Empire

The Emperor, it had long been rumored, had had the ability to use the Force to exercise direct control over his military forces.

--The Last Command

With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear. The sudden loss of coordination and fighting spirit allowed Han Solo, Princess Leia and the Rebel Commandos to disable the shield generator.

--Heir to the Empire sourcebook

At the decisive Battle of Endor, the Jedi returned to aid the Alliance in the form of Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. The Emperor was killed, his fleet scattered, and his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed. Without its binding, the Empire began to unravel.

--Heir to the Empire sourcebook

Palpatine knew precisely why the Empire couldn’t last without his dread power: he had designed it that way. No one ever suspected how much he relied on the Dark Side of the Force. He shaped those of his government by using the Force against them. He used it to control his fleets and to drive his soldiers on to victory. He used it to destroy his enemies from a distance and learn of conspiracies against him. Without it, there was no way the Empire could endure, as he had designed it. The Dark Side flowed through him like some primordial ichor and was the key to all his power.

--Dark Empire Sourcebook

“Perhaps a few months ago, I would have scoffed at the idea of one man controlling or shaping the events of the galaxy through sheer force of will. I certainly did not agree with the Grand Admiral’s contention that the Imperial Navy’s loss at Endor was because were, in effect, enslaved to the Emperor, as if we were, in Thrawn’s words, ‘borg-implanted into a combat computer.’

“That was then. Now I see that the Grand Admiral, the worthiest successor to the Emperor’s throne to have yet appeared, was quite accurate in his assessment.”

--Gilad Pellaeon, The Last Command Sourcebook

Note: The Imperial Military consists of tens of trillions of individuals, meaning all of them were under Palpatine’s influence.

The Imperial military is a massive organization, with tens of trillions of regular Army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew and a vast force of Stormtroopers both cloned and conditioned.

--Rebellion Era Campaign Guide

It should also be noted that since Return of the Jedi was the first time that anyone had been removed from Palpatine’s influence given the amount of panic it incited, and that the quote which mentions Palpatine had designed the Empire to be reliant on his power, it can be inferred that Palpatine was maintaining his Mind Domination casually and passively ever since Revenge of the Sith.

(★) The Emperor Reborn can control everyone in the whole galaxy with the dark side.

In place of the Empire and the New Republic, Palpatine planned to bring about a new form of galactic governance. He would use the dark side to control everything and everyone in the galaxy.What's more, he was capable of it.

--Official Starships and Vehicle Collection #64

Note: The Galactic Empire, which contains more than one hundred quadrillion beings, is only a part of the whole galaxy. As such, the total number of beings would be much larger.

The known galaxy includes nearly a billion inhabited star systems, from uncharted settlements set up by smugglers to megapolis worlds where scarcely a meter of untouched ground remains. Nearly seventy million of those star systems were sufficiently populated for representation of some sort in the Galactic Empire, a vast bureucracy responsible for the affairs of more than one hundred quadrillion beings.

--The Essential Atlas

Even Unulthul can mind-control trillions of Killiks in the nest. So the idea that Sidious can only control a single planet is beyond ridiculous.

First thanks for taking the time to post some quotes, however unless I'm missing something majorly important Sidious didn't mind control the entire Galactic Empire. Influenced it sure, but if he had complete TP control like Kerrigan does the zerg or like tyranids, daemons, and necrons then everyone would resort back to what they were doing before. His influence is what kept the Empire from bittering for the most part, but even Thrawn without TP powers was capable of keeping a decent sized empire up and would of kept on going how you know... he not taken a blade to the stomach. Palps never TP controlled trillions, billions, or even millions of people at once or the Clones wouldn't of needed order 66 installed into them. He wouldn't of needed to have a Galactic Civil war ( a true one not that garbage Rebels vs Empire stuff ) of which he would of never had to deal witht rebels to begin with

As Thrawn made it clear, Sidious' down fall was trying to micro manage everything and didn't want to give up control to GE figure heads because they wouldn't be as efficient

As for the universal garbage argument. No one outside of a few select characters in SW has operated on a Universal level and when i mean a select few, I mean like a handful out of all the hundreds of characters introduced in the SW setting and none of them are Sith or Jedi

Oh here we go. Sidious can mind control a universe LMAO KEK ROFL

Brace yourself I have a feeling,

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SydicateWarrior

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Oh here we go. Sidious can mind control a universe LMAO KEK ROFL

@sydicatewarrior said:

Kharn and Ahriman dispose of the fodders.

Bamsky!

The SW wank is boundless.
Kharn solos.
Ahriman solos.

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Unusual_Suspect

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Why would Khorne's blessing against The Warp matter at all against The Force? The Force is not The Warp, they operate on entirely different principles. For Kharn to be protected at all, frankly, Khorne would have to interfere, which is explicitly not allowed here.

Kharn might concievably blitz, but mid to high-end feats for Jedi/Sith should be enough to respond in time (Composite gets pretty ridiculous for Force-users, particularly Vader and Sidious), and Vader is more than strong enough to lift Kharn away from anything he could use as a weapon before getting sliced into bits by a TK'd lightsaber blender (Spinning - that's a good trick!). Beyond that, while Kharn's axe's teeth might be indestructible, the axe itself is not - it won't last long against a Composite Vader's skill with a lightsaber.

Ahriman feels like the more significant threat here, and he could probably give composite Sidious a helluva fight. I'm not sure he matches Sidious in raw potency (across-galaxy-hypergate-esque-cyclones-of-snatching-whatever-the-hell-he-wants is pretty damn hard to top), but his mastery over his craft feels far greater than even Sidious at his best, and Ahriman comes with physicals that give even force-enhanced combatants more than a hard time. Something of a hardened scalpel versus a greatsword.

I honestly think Ahriman might pull off a win here, particularly if he can shank Vader while holding off Sidious's stronger-but-less-skilled force attacks before Kharn dies (so he'd have to do it quickly). I don't think Sidious's TP versus voluntary/unknowning subjects, even an Empire's worth, is enough to actually overcome someone with the mental discipline and willpower on Ahriman's level, and it feels like Ahriman has more attacks that would bypass Sidious's traditional defenses more than Sidious's would bypass Ahriman's. Honestly, even the horrifyingly effective lightning of a serious Sidious isn't going to be out of the league of most of the stuff that Ahriman's kine shields would handle most of the time, while the brutality and unfairness of WH40k's psykers gives him some unexpected and potentially defense-bypassing horrible offensive hax.

I'd give the WH40k duo a slight advantage, perhaps 6 or 7 out of 10. The high-end feats for Vader and Sidious are enough to overwhelm Ahriman on his own, tricksy millenia-old haxmaster or not, and Kharn is mostly a distraction (unless you pretend that Khorn doesn't have to intervene to extend his blessing to The Force).

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kaijuking

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#22  Edited By kaijuking

@unusual_suspect:

Why would Khorne's blessing against The Warp matter at all against The Force? The Force is not The Warp, they operate on entirely different principles. For Kharn to be protected at all, frankly, Khorne would have to interfere, which is explicitly not allowed here.

In Canon and Legends Force works only on beings and a universe with Midichlorians. Warhammer guys dont have this. So they are both immune to Force.

How you like them apples if you want to play the games your way? This is why we have the general energies that have same effects as other are equalize rule. Naruto could not Gengitsu anyone outside his verse with no chakra in them without this rule. Flash could not speed steal anyone outside DC, ect ect ect.

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@kaijuking:

Equalization works for me, then. *shrug*

I still think Kharn's blessing against psykers requires Khorne to intervene (if it was a permanent blessing that didn't require Khorne's effort, Tzeentch would have been steamrolled into nothingness by Khorne's forces timeless aeons ago - clearly it has to be something that takes ongoing effort and interest, because Tzeentch still exists), which is at least against the rules of THIS battle.

If Kharn can't be touched by the Force at all, and his general "magic doesn't work in my general vicinity" aura is going on, this isn't a battle, it's a ROFLstomp, and this thread should be locked.

And again, even if he doesn't have his "Khorne doesn't like it when others do weird stuff with his toys" protection, I still think the team wins.

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The difference in gear, physicals and abilities is too wide between both Teams....
WH team will win in a landslide with barely a few scratches if ever...
Chaos Space Marine's armors, thoughness and unholy blessings make them too tough to deal with for the frail SW-Team.

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@kaijuking said:

Kharn should be immune to any force power. Ahriman is comparable to Sidious and way more hax.

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Why would Khorne's blessing against The Warp matter at all against The Force? The Force is not The Warp, they operate on entirely different principles. For Kharn to be protected at all, frankly, Khorne would have to interfere, which is explicitly not allowed here.

The mark of Khrone hasn't been expanded on too well but it does appear to grant immunity from psychic attacks beyond warp based ones for example Tyranids generate their own form to psychic energy called Shadow in the Warp (called such because it has no warp presence) and the mark grants immunity to this, applies to the Ork Waaargh energy I believe as well (will need to double check that though). So a case could be made for it suppressing force powers based on this.

However it is worth noting that as far as i'm aware it just stops the abilities effecting Kharn directly (mind control, telekinesis crushing etc...) it would not prevent someone lobbing a space ship at him with TK for example or lifting the floor beneath him. Although having the durability to take blows from a Primarch pre-heresy makes putting him down with sheer brute force problematic.

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MErulezall

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Ahriman still solos. Kharn still solos.

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#31  Edited By Cheth

tag didn't work for some reason. Don't see Vader beating Kharn, but he would probably give a good fight before going down. Ahriman is way more able to just spam random powers than any SW character has, so overall he probably has the edge over Sidious in range and combative capability. However Sidious could plausibly win by using force storm (assuming its DE), but Ahriman could possibly trick his way out of that too, and it would still be awkward for Sidious to then deal with Kharn afterwards either way...

So my answer is that Warhammer team wins in a good fight, so between easily and barely

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Considering The force isn’t in 40K. Kharne isn’t immune to it.

Star wars duo speedblitz.

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MErulezall

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@noah_ouellette said:

Considering The force isn’t in 40K. Kharne isn’t immune to it.

Star wars duo speedblitz.

Duo isn't blitzing Ahriman and Kharn can certainly close the distance long before vader decides to use the Force.

SW doesn't have the warp, so any force defense as well is useless which means they don't stand a chance when they get BFR.

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ANGELICA10

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Either khárn or Ahriman solo. Ahriman is vastly more powerful than both of Vader and Sidious combined anyway