Prime Anakin should be more agile and more faster than a Episode 6 Vader who was holding back against his Son
Plus Prime Anakin is more experienced and a better duelist than this version of Luke. Anakin natural anger boost would give him the win + he has force choke
Sidious feared what prime Anakin was becoming for a reason
@alextheboss: Suited Vader is confirmed equal to ROTJ Luke in saber skills, who in turn is below Anakin in saber skill. So suited Vader by extension is locked below in skill.
Prime Anakin should be more agile and more faster than a Episode 6 Vader who was holding back against his Son
Plus Prime Anakin is more experienced and a better duelist than this version of Luke. Anakin natural anger boost would give him the win + he has force choke
Sidious feared what prime Anakin was becoming for a reason
“Episode 6 Vader who was holding back against his Son”
Luke held back as well.
“he has force choke”
So does Luke
OT: Base Luke scaled equally to Prime Vader so a Raged Amped Luke should be even stronger. His skill is lower at the time but his force augmentation with his sabers should overwhelm Anakin and his force feats/power are superior.
Luke Didn't use any force powers against Vader in his fight, it was strictly a Light saber duel.
The some of the new Material Omits Vader being conflicted, and implies Vader was full power which Goes against what the Movie said about Vader. You can argue Luke in certain part was conflicted, but not for the whole Duel.
it's pretty hard to say how strong anakin's amp made him. it puts him at least dooku level, probably a bit above. at the same time, we know it's not sidious level based on sheev and yoda's statements. also, do we have anything that definitively says in canon the anakin that lost to obi wan was hindered/different from darkside amped KFV who defeated dooku?
luke's amp put him above vader. there was no cap on how strong he became with his amp. only after his amp was gone was he then sheeved.
it's pretty hard to say how strong anakin's amp made him. it puts him at least dooku level, probably a bit above. at the same time, we know it's not sidious level based on sheev and yoda's statements. also, do we have anything that definitively says in canon the anakin that lost to obi wan was hindered/different from darkside amped KFV who defeated dooku?
luke's amp put him above vader. there was no cap on how strong he became with his amp. only after his amp was gone was he then sheeved.
Interesting take. Vader being conflicted was noted in the movie which is the highest canon.
There wasn't a cap mentioned for how strong he became with his amp, and Sheev did Said You're hate has made you Very powerful. I'll Retract my Earlier Statement and saying
Anakin wins Round 1 handily
Round 2 Goes to Luke
and Round 3 Could go either way but i'm still leaning on Anakin taking it if he able to keep it a Light saber duel.
Anakin wasn't a "bit above" Dooku. He was considerably above him given that under the amp he wrecked Dooku in 30 seconds.
Evidence for Anakin being hindered on Mustafar in Disney canon
The book doesn't outright say "he was hindered", but the quotes are very similar to the same ones used in Legends to justify hindered Mustafar Vader and IMO its really clear once looking at the quotes.
These are from the book Skywalker: A Family at War.
Firstly, it's best to start by showing how Knightfall Vader is described as. The book likens him to "a droid executing his programming" clearly showing he is cold and calculated:
Knightfall Vader is also described as "disturbingly calculated calm":
On the other hand, Mustafar Vader is described as being infused with the "strength of his fenetic emotions":
Now what were these emotions exactly? Not the kind that would be useful.
Mustafar Vader is described as feeling despair and experiencing self loathing:
Also experiencing insecurity and feeling terrified:
The word 'frenetic' is defined as:
To give an example of this word being used in the same book, ESB Luke is described as 'frenetic' and contrasted to the calmer and more focused ROTJ Luke.
The way ESB Luke is described as 'frenetic' to the calmer ROTJ Luke is pretty much equivalent to the way the calm and calculated Knightfall Vader is compared to the overly emotional Mustafar Vader.
Knightfall Vader is explicitly referred to as calm, cold and calculated whereas Mustafar Vader is described as being overcome with emotions of terror, despair, self loathing and insecurity.
@nassergrant19: And as I said before Luke beating a Vader that was holding back doesn’t mean he can beat Prime Anakin
Prime Anakin is faster and more agile than Vader and Luke and Ani has more experience in battling light saber duels
A non jobbing serious Vader also should have physically overpowered Luke but again as many have pointed Vader wasn’t going all out n was conflicted
“Vader also should have physically overpowered Luke but again as many have pointed Vader wasn’t going all out n was conflicted”
Luke was holding back as well so the fight was incalculable. However the fact remains that they canonically confirmed Luke was equal to prime Vader outside of the incalculable fight.
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
@nassergrant19: And as I said before Luke beating a Vader that was holding back doesn’t mean he can beat Prime Anakin
Prime Anakin is faster and more agile than Vader and Luke and Ani has more experience in battling light saber duels
A non jobbing serious Vader also should have physically overpowered Luke but again as many have pointed Vader wasn’t going all out nwas conflicted
One of the few times we can agree on something here.
Vader in ROTJ is stated to be emotional Wreck with conflict. while Vader in Rebels is stated to be devoid of emotions except anger, Hate, and suffering.
Clearly ROTJ Vader wasn't at his greatest when fighting Luke which Is what I been telling dude my self. Just going to save you the Trouble unless you want to entire an eternal debate with him posting the same Scan which he doesn't understand is overruled by the movie pointing out Vader in ROTJ was weakened by his emotions.
@nassergrant19: And as I said before Luke beating a Vader that was holding back doesn’t mean he can beat Prime Anakin
Prime Anakin is faster and more agile than Vader and Luke and Ani has more experience in battling light saber duels
A non jobbing serious Vader also should have physically overpowered Luke but again as many have pointed Vader wasn’t going all out nwas conflicted
One of the few times we can agree on something here.
Vader in ROTJ is stated to be emotional Wreck with conflict. while Vader in Rebels is stated to be devoid of emotions except anger, Hate, and suffering.
Clearly ROTJ Vader wasn't at his greatest when fighting Luke which Is what I been telling dude my self. Just going to save you the Trouble unless you want to entire an eternal debate with him posting the same Scan which he doesn't understand is overruled by the movie pointing out Vader in ROTJ was weakened by his emotions.
“Clearly ROTJ Vader wasn't at his greatest when fighting Luke which Is what I been telling dude my self”
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that I wasn’t talking about the ROTJ fight?
For the last time, the fight tells you nothing. If Vader was conflicted and Luke held back there‘s no accurate answer to tell you who’s stronger.
Even the part where Luke got angry and beat conflicted Vader, we never got to see full power Vader fight the full power Luke. So the fight gives NO ANSWERS and NO STATEMENTS to who is stronger. They never say “Vader is stronger“ or “Luke is stronger“. It doesn’t confirm your narrative or mine.
Your simply ASSUMING because Vader was conflicted, if he wasn’t he could somehow defeat a full power Luke. However the fact remains that the movie doesn’t tell us anything regarding who’s stronger.
If you go by the movies the only direct strength statement is Sidious saying that Luke could “Destroy us both.” And I know you wouldn’t wanna accept that, so since there’s no specific strength statements in the movie, we go by the specific statements that SW canon gave us.
The SW canon statement DOES NOT refer to the incalculable ROTJ fight it simply confirms Luke and Vader are equal.
It doesn‘t say ”Held Back” Luke or “Conflicted” Vader. Just regular Luke and Vader.
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
@frozen: i do see both KFV and the anakin that defeated dooku as calm/calculating. I will say though that rage amp luke against vader was quite "frenetic" based on what was happening on screen. that said, maybe anakin is strong when calculating and luke is strong when frenetic. vader also is not frenetic, but calm, suggesting vader in general is stronger in calm mode.
i think it's accurate to say mustafar vader was not weaker than KFV but he was strategically impaired due to being too emotional, meaning he was effectively weaker. but even in that scenario, KFV cannot be that much stronger than dooku. that is because someone with sheev level raw power, even if impaired it terms of strategy, would still defeat obi wan. KFV defeating dooku quickly can be explained by dooku already being tired from 2v1ing.
Vader being conflicted in ROTJ DOES NOT mean if he wasn’t he would’ve defeated a full power Luke. There’s absolutely nothing that says that in the film. Believing that means you are ASSUMING that if he was not conflicted he could somehow beat a full power Luke. A simple head-canon assumption, nothing concrete or confirmed. The fact remains that the fight tells us nothing.
Him being conflicted and Luke holding back makes the entire fight incalculable and borderline unusable.
However because of this uncertainty, In 2016 Regular Luke and Regular Vader were confirmed to be equal in strength SW canon, OUTSIDE of the incalculable ROTJ fight.
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)
It doesn’t say “Held Back” Luke or “Conflicted“ Vader are equal. Just Luke and Vader.
@nassergrant19: And as I said before Luke beating a Vader that was holding back doesn’t mean he can beat Prime Anakin
Prime Anakin is faster and more agile than Vader and Luke and Ani has more experience in battling light saber duels
A non jobbing serious Vader also should have physically overpowered Luke but again as many have pointed Vader wasn’t going all out nwas conflicted
One of the few times we can agree on something here.
Vader in ROTJ is stated to be emotional Wreck with conflict. while Vader in Rebels is stated to be devoid of emotions except anger, Hate, and suffering.
Clearly ROTJ Vader wasn't at his greatest when fighting Luke which Is what I been telling dude my self. Just going to save you the Trouble unless you want to entire an eternal debate with him posting the same Scan which he doesn't understand is overruled by the movie pointing out Vader in ROTJ was weakened by his emotions.
“Clearly ROTJ Vader wasn't at his greatest when fighting Luke which Is what I been telling dude my self”
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that I wasn’t talking about the ROTJ fight?
For the last time, the fight tells you nothing. If Vader was conflicted and Luke held back there‘s no accurate answer to tell you who’s stronger.
Even the part where Luke got angry and beat conflicted Vader, we never got to see full power Vader fight the full power Luke. So the fight gives NO ANSWERS and NO STATEMENTS to who is stronger. They never say “Vader is stronger“ or “Luke is stronger“. It doesn’t confirm your narrative or mine.
Your simply ASSUMING because Vader was conflicted, if he wasn’t he could somehow defeat a full power Luke. However the fact remains that the movie doesn’t tell us anything regarding who’s stronger.
If you go by the movies the only direct strength statement is Sidious saying that Luke could “Destroy us both.” And I know you wouldn’t wanna accept that, so since there’s no specific strength statements in the movie, we go by the specific statements that SW canon gave us.
The SW canon statement DOES NOT refer to the incalculable ROTJ fight it simply confirms Luke and Vader are equal.
It doesn‘t say ”Held Back” Luke or “Conflicted” Vader. Just regular Luke and Vader.
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)
Why is this fact so offensive?
Maybe because you keep omitting Vader was conflicted in the whole fight from sources, Out of universe Statements, and Movie backing up the claim.
You are telling me and others to dismiss what the Movie; said and focus on your sources which omitted those details.
That is what Offensive about it. Yes, Vader would have won that fight if not for his prior Emotion heading towards that fight. Dave Filoni Admits that Rebels Was Vader at his best emotionally, and it back up as well by Others who worked at Lucas Film. You just dismissed that to insert your Sources which contradicts the Films. which is the highest Bit of Canon in Star wars.
@frozen: i do see both KFV and the anakin that defeated dooku as calm/calculating. I will say though that rage amp luke against vader was quite "frenetic" based on what was happening on screen. that said, maybe anakin is strong when calculating and luke is strong when frenetic. vader also is not frenetic, but calm, suggesting vader in general is stronger in calm mode.
i think it's accurate to say mustafar vader was not weaker than KFV but he was strategically impaired due to being too emotional, meaning he was effectively weaker. but even in that scenario, KFV cannot be that much stronger than dooku. that is because someone with sheev level raw power, even if impaired it terms of strategy, would still defeat obi wan. KFV defeating dooku quickly can be explained by dooku already being tired from 2v1ing.
Dooku being tired is head canon which isn't backed up by anything. KFV won because he was more powerful. Sidious even confirms he was more powerful after. (Inb4 tenebrous essay).
Sidious also never said that KFV was weaker than him. He said that Vadwe will become more powerful than either him or Yoda. This could simply mean that Vader was already as powerful as him but had yet to surpass him.
Your reasoning also doesn't hold up. KFV was confirmed as far stronger than Dooku in old Legends continuinity by a number of sources and that didn't stop Obi from beating hindered MFV.
The fact is that Anakin beat Dooku in 30 seconds when he got rage amped.. hes far above.
@nassergrant19: And as I said before Luke beating a Vader that was holding back doesn’t mean he can beat Prime Anakin
Prime Anakin is faster and more agile than Vader and Luke and Ani has more experience in battling light saber duels
A non jobbing serious Vader also should have physically overpowered Luke but again as many have pointed Vader wasn’t going all out nwas conflicted
One of the few times we can agree on something here.
Vader in ROTJ is stated to be emotional Wreck with conflict. while Vader in Rebels is stated to be devoid of emotions except anger, Hate, and suffering.
Clearly ROTJ Vader wasn't at his greatest when fighting Luke which Is what I been telling dude my self. Just going to save you the Trouble unless you want to entire an eternal debate with him posting the same Scan which he doesn't understand is overruled by the movie pointing out Vader in ROTJ was weakened by his emotions.
Heavily agree. Finally we come to a agreement. Now I just have to brain wash you on why Naruto tiers are stronger than you think lol
@nassergrant19: And as I said before Luke beating a Vader that was holding back doesn’t mean he can beat Prime Anakin
Prime Anakin is faster and more agile than Vader and Luke and Ani has more experience in battling light saber duels
A non jobbing serious Vader also should have physically overpowered Luke but again as many have pointed Vader wasn’t going all out nwas conflicted
One of the few times we can agree on something here.
Vader in ROTJ is stated to be emotional Wreck with conflict. while Vader in Rebels is stated to be devoid of emotions except anger, Hate, and suffering.
Clearly ROTJ Vader wasn't at his greatest when fighting Luke which Is what I been telling dude my self. Just going to save you the Trouble unless you want to entire an eternal debate with him posting the same Scan which he doesn't understand is overruled by the movie pointing out Vader in ROTJ was weakened by his emotions.
“Clearly ROTJ Vader wasn't at his greatest when fighting Luke which Is what I been telling dude my self”
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that I wasn’t talking about the ROTJ fight?
For the last time, the fight tells you nothing. If Vader was conflicted and Luke held back there‘s no accurate answer to tell you who’s stronger.
Even the part where Luke got angry and beat conflicted Vader, we never got to see full power Vader fight the full power Luke. So the fight gives NO ANSWERS and NO STATEMENTS to who is stronger. They never say “Vader is stronger“ or “Luke is stronger“. It doesn’t confirm your narrative or mine.
Your simply ASSUMING because Vader was conflicted, if he wasn’t he could somehow defeat a full power Luke. However the fact remains that the movie doesn’t tell us anything regarding who’s stronger.
If you go by the movies the only direct strength statement is Sidious saying that Luke could “Destroy us both.” And I know you wouldn’t wanna accept that, so since there’s no specific strength statements in the movie, we go by the specific statements that SW canon gave us.
The SW canon statement DOES NOT refer to the incalculable ROTJ fight it simply confirms Luke and Vader are equal.
It doesn‘t say ”Held Back” Luke or “Conflicted” Vader. Just regular Luke and Vader.
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)
Why is this fact so offensive?
Maybe because you keep omitting Vader was conflicted in the whole fight from sources, Out of universe Statements, and Movie backing up the claim.
You are telling me and others to dismiss what the Movie; said and focus on your sources which omitted those details.
That is what Offensive about it. Yes, Vader would have won that fight if not for his prior Emotion heading towards that fight. Dave Filoni Admits that Rebels Was Vader at his best emotionally, and it back up as well by Others who worked at Lucas Film. You just dismissed that to insert your Sources which contradicts the Films. which is the highest Bit of Canon in Star wars.
“Maybe because you keep omitting Vader was conflicted in the whole FIGHT from sources,”
Jesus Christ....what part of I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FIGHT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
“You are telling me and others to dismiss what the Movie; said and focus on your sources which omitted those details.”
No I’m telling you to get it through your head that the fight confirms nothing. If Vader was conflicted what proof is there that if he was at his best he’d beat Luke? What statement in the movie confirms that? Newsflash, NONE.
Your assuming that. Like I said before the movie doesn’t confirm Luke is stronger nor does it confirm Vader’s stronger. No statements in the movie say that.
“Yes, Vader would have won that fight if not for his prior Emotion heading towards that fight.”
And what statement in the movie confirms that? Besides your assumptions lmao.
“contradicts the Films”
The quote refers to the films
And there’s only one strength statement in the films.
Sidious: “He could destroy us both.”
That’s in the film as well but I guess that’s the one thing you chose to ignore lmao.
Anyways like I said a thousand times, NOTHING IN THE FILM CONFIRMS LUKE OR VADER IS STRONGER. So there’s absolutely nothing contradicted.
Plus even if something was changed in canon, it would simply be a retcon.
“Dave Filoni Admits that Rebels Was Vader at his best emotionally”
1. Who cares? Rebels Vader is far far far weaker than ROTJ Vader who has literally the best force feats in canon. Everyone knows Rebels Vader is weak compared to ROTJ Vader.
2. Dave Filoni’s opinions don’t mean shit. Unless it’s stated in the storytelling content it’s not canon. Your also a hypocrite for bringing up his statements and books because you preach to only use the films lmao. Funny thing is, none of what you brought up helps your argument or your Vader wank.
3. How the hell does this prove Vader>Luke? Where does it say that? Or since we are on that topic, where does it specifically say that in the films? I’m still waiting for that....newsflash...you won’t find anything lol.
Anyways the SW canon statement DOES NOT refer to the incalculable ROTJ fight it simply confirms Luke and Vader are equal.
It doesn‘t say ”Held Back” Luke or “Conflicted” Vader. Just regular Luke and Vader.
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)
SINCE YOU HAVE A HARD TIME READING BECAUSE I HAVE TO KEEP REPEATING MYSELF LEMME MAKE THIS CLEAR. THE CANON STATEMENT DOES NOT REFER TO THE INCALCUABLE ROTJ FIGHT. IT SIMPLY CONFIRMS LUKE AND VADER WERE EQUAL NORMALLY.
Every time I hit you with this indisputable evidence you go
“MuH hE WaS CoNfLiCTeD In ThE RoTj FiGhT”
No shit Sherlock. I’m not talking about the fight. You can’t confirm who’s stronger from that fight and no film statements tell us who’s stronger.
I‘m talking about SW canon straight up confirming normal Luke and normal Vader were equal.
These are the canon facts and they don’t give a shit about your Vader bias.
You say it don't matter But yet you trying to say Luke was also conflicted and holding back the whole fight. Which was never confirmed or implied.
Luke also Said Vader was the most dangerous foe he ever fought in the TLJ Novel.
Like I just showed you Vader was not at his best when he fought Luke. Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.
If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.
Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor who Vader one shotted casually while testing his suit and massively pre-prime.
You say it don't matter But yet you trying to say Luke was also conflicted and holding back the whole fight. Which was never confirmed or implied.
Luke also Said Vader was the most dangerous foe he ever fought in the TLJ Novel.
Like I just showed you Vader was not at his best when he fought Luke. Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.
If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.
Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor who Vader one shotted casually while testing his suit and massively pre-prime.
“Which was never confirmed or implied.”
“If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.”
Hey man no offense but CAN YOU READ??? JESUS CHRIST. I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ROTJ FIGHT. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS? ARE YOU DOING THIS ON PURPOSE? It’s like talking to a brick wall with you.
“Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.”
YES FOR PETE‘S SAKE THAT’S WHAT IV’E BEEN TELLING YOU THE WHOLE TIME. THE FIGHT TELLS YOU NOTHING. IT DOESN’T CONFIRM LUKE IS STRONGER AND IT DOESN’T CONFIRM VADER IS STRONGER.
“Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor”
Bruh I’m sorry but are you stupid? That was ANHLuke and he still beat him....
That’s like me saying Anakin was weak for getting his arm cut off by Dooku....
If these are your arguments man, I’m sorry but you’ve already lost.
I’m gonna say this one last time
THE CANON STATEMENT DOES NOT REFER TO THE INCALCUABLE ROTJ FIGHT. IT SIMPLY CONFIRMS LUKE AND VADER WERE EQUAL NORMALLY.
I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ROTJ FIGHT. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.
If you bring up the ROTJ fight again after I told you 17 times that’s not what it’s referring to, I’m honestly gonna quit.
It’s just talking about regular Luke and regular Vader at their best. Then they confirm they were equal. ROTJ Luke=Prime Vader in canon.
You say it don't matter But yet you trying to say Luke was also conflicted and holding back the whole fight. Which was never confirmed or implied.
Luke also Said Vader was the most dangerous foe he ever fought in the TLJ Novel.
Like I just showed you Vader was not at his best when he fought Luke. Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.
If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.
Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor who Vader one shotted casually while testing his suit and massively pre-prime.
“Which was never confirmed or implied.”
“If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.”
Hey man no offense but CAN YOU READ??? JESUS CHRIST. I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ROTJ FIGHT. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS? ARE YOU DOING THIS ON PURPOSE? It’s like talking to a brick wall with you.
“Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.”
YES FOR PETE‘S SAKE THAT’S WHAT IV’E BEEN TELLING YOU THE WHOLE TIME. THE FIGHT TELLS YOU NOTHING. IT DOESN’T CONFIRM LUKE IS STRONGER AND IT DOESN’T CONFIRM VADER IS STRONGER.
“Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor”
Bruh I’m sorry but are you stupid? That was ESB Luke and he still beat him....
That’s like me saying Anakin was weak for getting his arm cut off by Dooku....
If these are your arguments man, I’m sorry but you’ve already lost.
I’m gonna say this one last time
THE CANON STATEMENT DOES NOT REFER TO THE INCALCUABLE ROTJ FIGHT. IT SIMPLY CONFIRMS LUKE AND VADER WERE EQUAL NORMALLY.
I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ROTJ FIGHT. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.
If you bring up the ROTJ fight again after I told you 17 times that’s not what it’s referring to, I’m honestly gonna quit.
It’s just talking about regular Luke and regular Vader at their best. Then they confirm they were equal. ROTJ Luke=Prime Vader in canon.
Are you able to read your own comments? then you can't imply ROTJ Luke=ROTJ Vader when you just acknowledge the fight was unquantifiable and Vader was jobbing.
Like I said Luke prior to that was getting own skilled by GI who Vader could casually one shot while testing his suit pre-prime.
You say it don't matter But yet you trying to say Luke was also conflicted and holding back the whole fight. Which was never confirmed or implied.
Luke also Said Vader was the most dangerous foe he ever fought in the TLJ Novel.
Like I just showed you Vader was not at his best when he fought Luke. Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.
If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.
Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor who Vader one shotted casually while testing his suit and massively pre-prime.
“Which was never confirmed or implied.”
“If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.”
Hey man no offense but CAN YOU READ??? JESUS CHRIST. I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ROTJ FIGHT. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS? ARE YOU DOING THIS ON PURPOSE? It’s like talking to a brick wall with you.
“Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.”
YES FOR PETE‘S SAKE THAT’S WHAT IV’E BEEN TELLING YOU THE WHOLE TIME. THE FIGHT TELLS YOU NOTHING. IT DOESN’T CONFIRM LUKE IS STRONGER AND IT DOESN’T CONFIRM VADER IS STRONGER.
“Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor”
Bruh I’m sorry but are you stupid? That was ESB Luke and he still beat him....
That’s like me saying Anakin was weak for getting his arm cut off by Dooku....
If these are your arguments man, I’m sorry but you’ve already lost.
I’m gonna say this one last time
THE CANON STATEMENT DOES NOT REFER TO THE INCALCUABLE ROTJ FIGHT. IT SIMPLY CONFIRMS LUKE AND VADER WERE EQUAL NORMALLY.
I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ROTJ FIGHT. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.
If you bring up the ROTJ fight again after I told you 17 times that’s not what it’s referring to, I’m honestly gonna quit.
It’s just talking about regular Luke and regular Vader at their best. Then they confirm they were equal. ROTJ Luke=Prime Vader in canon.
Are you able to read your own comments? then you can't imply ROTJ Luke=ROTJ Vader when you just acknowledge the fight was unquantifiable and Vader was jobbing.
Like I said Luke prior to that was getting own skilled by GI who Vader could casually one shot while testing his suit pre-prime.
“then you can't imply ROTJ Luke=ROTJ Vader”
I don’t have to imply it because SW canon already confirmed it for me.
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)
“just acknowledge the fight was unquantifiable and Vader was jobbing.”
I already told you the fight confirms nothing about Luke or Vader and that’s all I’ll say. I already told you to stop bringing it up since it’s completely unquantifiable for both characters. It has nothing to do with the argument. Drop it.
“Like I said Luke prior to that was getting own skilled by GI”
You say it don't matter But yet you trying to say Luke was also conflicted and holding back the whole fight. Which was never confirmed or implied.
Luke also Said Vader was the most dangerous foe he ever fought in the TLJ Novel.
Like I just showed you Vader was not at his best when he fought Luke. Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.
If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.
Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor who Vader one shotted casually while testing his suit and massively pre-prime.
“Which was never confirmed or implied.”
“If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.”
Hey man no offense but CAN YOU READ??? JESUS CHRIST. I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ROTJ FIGHT. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS? ARE YOU DOING THIS ON PURPOSE? It’s like talking to a brick wall with you.
“Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.”
YES FOR PETE‘S SAKE THAT’S WHAT IV’E BEEN TELLING YOU THE WHOLE TIME. THE FIGHT TELLS YOU NOTHING. IT DOESN’T CONFIRM LUKE IS STRONGER AND IT DOESN’T CONFIRM VADER IS STRONGER.
“Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor”
Bruh I’m sorry but are you stupid? That was ESB Luke and he still beat him....
That’s like me saying Anakin was weak for getting his arm cut off by Dooku....
If these are your arguments man, I’m sorry but you’ve already lost.
I’m gonna say this one last time
THE CANON STATEMENT DOES NOT REFER TO THE INCALCUABLE ROTJ FIGHT. IT SIMPLY CONFIRMS LUKE AND VADER WERE EQUAL NORMALLY.
I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ROTJ FIGHT. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.
If you bring up the ROTJ fight again after I told you 17 times that’s not what it’s referring to, I’m honestly gonna quit.
It’s just talking about regular Luke and regular Vader at their best. Then they confirm they were equal. ROTJ Luke=Prime Vader in canon.
Are you able to read your own comments? then you can't imply ROTJ Luke=ROTJ Vader when you just acknowledge the fight was unquantifiable and Vader was jobbing.
Like I said Luke prior to that was getting own skilled by GI who Vader could casually one shot while testing his suit pre-prime.
“then you can't imply ROTJ Luke=ROTJ Vader”
I don’t have to imply it because SW canon already confirmed it for me.
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)
“just acknowledge the fight was unquantifiable and Vader was jobbing.”
I already told you the fight confirms nothing about Luke or Vader and that’s all I’ll say. I already told you to stop bringing it up since is completely unquantifiable for both characters.
“Like I said Luke prior to that was getting own skilled by GI”
ANH LUKE.....ANH LUKE......ANH LUKE.....lmao
Well i'm saying it contradicted by higher sources.
You say it don't matter But yet you trying to say Luke was also conflicted and holding back the whole fight. Which was never confirmed or implied.
Luke also Said Vader was the most dangerous foe he ever fought in the TLJ Novel.
Like I just showed you Vader was not at his best when he fought Luke. Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.
If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.
Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor who Vader one shotted casually while testing his suit and massively pre-prime.
“Which was never confirmed or implied.”
“If it wasn't for the fact that He was conflicted then I would have agreed with you but I don't, because he was conflicted and not at his best.”
Hey man no offense but CAN YOU READ??? JESUS CHRIST. I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ROTJ FIGHT. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS? ARE YOU DOING THIS ON PURPOSE? It’s like talking to a brick wall with you.
“Defeating a Jobbing Vader is at best is unquantifiable.”
YES FOR PETE‘S SAKE THAT’S WHAT IV’E BEEN TELLING YOU THE WHOLE TIME. THE FIGHT TELLS YOU NOTHING. IT DOESN’T CONFIRM LUKE IS STRONGER AND IT DOESN’T CONFIRM VADER IS STRONGER.
“Then there is the fact Luke prior was getting own skilled by Grand inquisitor”
Bruh I’m sorry but are you stupid? That was ESB Luke and he still beat him....
That’s like me saying Anakin was weak for getting his arm cut off by Dooku....
If these are your arguments man, I’m sorry but you’ve already lost.
I’m gonna say this one last time
THE CANON STATEMENT DOES NOT REFER TO THE INCALCUABLE ROTJ FIGHT. IT SIMPLY CONFIRMS LUKE AND VADER WERE EQUAL NORMALLY.
I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ROTJ FIGHT. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.
If you bring up the ROTJ fight again after I told you 17 times that’s not what it’s referring to, I’m honestly gonna quit.
It’s just talking about regular Luke and regular Vader at their best. Then they confirm they were equal. ROTJ Luke=Prime Vader in canon.
Are you able to read your own comments? then you can't imply ROTJ Luke=ROTJ Vader when you just acknowledge the fight was unquantifiable and Vader was jobbing.
Like I said Luke prior to that was getting own skilled by GI who Vader could casually one shot while testing his suit pre-prime.
“then you can't imply ROTJ Luke=ROTJ Vader”
I don’t have to imply it because SW canon already confirmed it for me.
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)
“just acknowledge the fight was unquantifiable and Vader was jobbing.”
I already told you the fight confirms nothing about Luke or Vader and that’s all I’ll say. I already told you to stop bringing it up since is completely unquantifiable for both characters.
“Like I said Luke prior to that was getting own skilled by GI”
ANH LUKE.....ANH LUKE......ANH LUKE.....lmao
Well i'm saying it contradicted by higher sources.
There are no higher sources that trump this extremely specific SW canon confirmation.
We already established ROTJ isn‘t contradicted because the whole fight is unquantifiable and confirms nothing about “Luke being stronger“ or “Vader being stronger“.
So nothing contradicts the official SW canon confirmation that
The movie is the Higher source of canon, any attempts to change that is futile.
At best you Luke=Conflicted Vader.
Then we have sources saying Luke was less skilled than Obi-wan.
Like I keep telling you to agree to disagree.
The sources putting them on the same level aren't referencing the fight. They're just saying they're equal. They can be equal outside of the duel and still be a match for one another in a contextual duel. Its not mutually exclusive.
The movie is the Higher source of canon, any attempts to change that is futile.
At best you Luke=Conflicted Vader.
Then we have sources saying Luke was less skilled than Obi-wan.
Like I keep telling you to agree to disagree.
The sources putting them on the same level aren't referencing the fight. They're just saying they're equal. They can be equal outside of the duel and still be a match for one another in a contextual duel. Its not mutually exclusive.
If it not talking about Fighting then you can't use it to say they are equal in combat when that not what being said. context is key here, He could be equal to that Vader but my problem is implying that Sentence goes for Prime Rebels Vader when he was devoid of emotions and feelings towards anyone. Your argument only relates to that Vader we see in ESB and ROTJ where he was not at his best emotional. You were the one posting Vader struggling against Ben who is stated inferior to ROTS Obi-wan. Obi-wan ROTS is inferior to Dooku.
Which is why I'm saying Luke could be equal to ESB and ROTJ Vader, but Prime Rebels Vader? no.
Vader beats them in force augmentation since he is confirmed superior to Dooku and Anakin, but he isn't in Skill and that is noted, that Lost a lot of skill thank to the hindering factor of his suit. in Canon years after ROTJ Sidious did have a new suit for Vader which would have gave him is mobility and Agility back and putting Vader at his full potential. However he died before that could happen.
That Was I was trying to get you and your friend to understand, That sentence doesn't encompass all Of Vader. At that point that would imply Luke is above KFV who is the Same tier Sidious and Yoda, when You conceded That Obi-wan who is inferior to Dooku was above that Luke.
Like I said Context is key here. Now That we better understand we know that doesn't imply ROTJ Luke=Prime Rebel Vader.
The movie is the Higher source of canon, any attempts to change that is futile.
At best you Luke=Conflicted Vader.
Then we have sources saying Luke was less skilled than Obi-wan.
Like I keep telling you to agree to disagree.
The sources putting them on the same level aren't referencing the fight. They're just saying they're equal. They can be equal outside of the duel and still be a match for one another in a contextual duel. Its not mutually exclusive.
If it not talking about Fighting then you can't use it to say they are equal in combat when that not what being said. context is key here, He could be equal to that Vader but my problem is implying that Sentence goes for Prime Rebels Vader when he was devoid of emotions and feelings towards anyone. Your argument only relates to that Vader we see in ESB and ROTJ where he was not at his best emotional. You were the one posting Vader struggling against Ben who is stated inferior to ROTS Obi-wan. Obi-wan ROTS is inferior to Dooku.
Which is why I'm saying Luke could be equal to ESB and ROTJ Vader, but Prime Rebels Vader? no.
Vader beats them in force augmentation since he is confirmed superior to Dooku and Anakin, but he isn't in Skill and that is noted, that Lost a lot of skill thank to the hindering factor of his suit. in Canon years after ROTJ Sidious did have a new suit for Vader which would have gave him is mobility and Agility back and putting Vader at his full potential. However he died before that could happen.
That Was I was trying to get you and your friend to understand, That sentence doesn't encompass all Of Vader. At that point that would imply Luke is above KFV who is the Same tier Sidious and Yoda, when You conceded That Obi-wan who is inferior to Dooku was above that Luke.
Like I said Context is key here. Now That we better understand we know that doesn't imply ROTJ Luke=Prime Rebel Vader.
“If it not talking about Fighting then you can't use it to say they are equal in combat when that not what being said.”
That’s the dumbest shit I’ve heard all day lmao.
READ WHAT IT SAYS, SLOWLY
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)
It literally says STRENGTH in the FORCE and SKILL with the LIGHTSABER.
IT’S LITERALLY TALKING ABOUT COMBAT. How much more context do you need? It’s not rocket science. They were extremely specific and confirmed ROTJ Luke=Prime Vader.
“That sentence doesn't encompass all Of Vader.”
Yes it freaking does. It’s referring to (ROTJ era/not the fight) Vader who’s canonically prime due to having the strongest force feats in canon.
“That Obi-wan who is inferior to Dooku was above that Luke.”
Your a really slow dude. He said Obi-Wan was above Luke in skill alone because he’s much much older and wiser than him while Luke lacked experience. Doesn‘t change the fact that Luke would beat Dooku and Kenobi due to vastly superior force augmentation.
You gotta be on drugs to think Kenobi is over ROTJ Luke.....
“ROTJ Luke=Prime Rebel Vader.”
Rebels Vader is weaker than ESB/ROTJ Vader lmao. Are you high?
Did you read the Vader comics???? Those comics are close to/around the ROTJ era and he almost has greatest force feats in SW canon. He’s massively superior to Rebels Vader.
Rebels is confirmed and stated to Be Vader's Prime by Dave Filoni and Hidalgo.
Your Statement only encompasses ESB Vader and ROTJ Vader because that is the Vader Luke was fighting. He's never fought Rebels Vader.
your concession is accepted on that.
Rebels Vader being prime doesn‘t exclude ROTJ Vader being prime.
Plus ROTJ Vader is canonically wayyyyyyy stronger than Rebels Vader. His force feats are massively superior and second only to like Sidious in power.
ROTJ Vader>>>>>>> Rebels Vader
These feats are almost the greatest force feats in canon. They are all done by ESB/ROTJ Vader. Rebels Vader doesn’t even come close. At best he lifted a few rocks.
Anakin all rounds no contest, Luke doesen't surpass Knight Fall Vader or Prime Vader or even Vader as of ROTJ(He is holding back during that final duel) until after ROTJ
Anakin all rounds no contest, Luke doesen't surpass Knight Fall Vader or Prime Vader or even Vader as of ROTJ(He is holding back during that final duel) until after ROTJ
ROTJ Luke was confirmed in SW canon to be equal in the force and sabers to Prime Vader outside of the fight (where they both held back).
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