Ken Kaneki vs Darth Vader

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CocaColaMan

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The One Eyed King

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The Sith Lord

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Rules

  • Canon Vader
  • Win by death only
  • Fight in a city
  • Random encounter
  • Bloodlusted
  • Start 20 ft away
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KingCrimson

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What can canon Vader do? Is this EoS Kaneki?

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KillBilly

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#4  Edited By KillBilly

@kingcrimson said:

What can canon Vader do? Is this EoS Kaneki?

Vader

Telekinesis

Feats

Collapses an enormous structure.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Tears apart an ATAT.

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Note: Durability of an ATAT.

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Explodes rebel tanks.

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Throws boulders with enough force to plow through Y-wings.

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Destroys the engines of an Imperial shuttle.

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Vader pulls down a ship against the force generated by the ship's engines.

Vader, too, lifted a hand and reached out with the Force toward the other ship. Vader enmeshed himself in the Force, in his seething, ever-present wrath, and used it to take hold of the freighter and drive the entire ship toward the ground. He grunted with the effort, his respirator increasing his rate of breathing to account for the exertion. The ship, its engines unable to compensate enough against the downward push of Vader's power, went nose-down and streaked into the ground. Vader imagined the screams of the pilots as they watched the forest race toward them. The ship disappeared behind the tree line and exploded into a fireball that reached above the forest's canopy and caused the ground to vibrate. A cloud of black smoke rose into the darkening sky. A second boom sounded behind him, his Master having driven the second ship into the ground the same way. The forest went silent for a moment in the wake of the explosions, with only Vader's breathing to disrupt the quiet, before the howls and chirps and squeals of Ryloth's fauna returned.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Scaling

Midway through the Clone Wars, he destroys the supports of an underwater superstructure located at the bottom of the ocean.

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This was prior to Ahsoka's departure from the order wherein he grew "vastly" in power.

But Ahsoka eventually became disillusioned and left the Jedi Order, an act which Anakin regretted. The Clone Wars continued, and Anakin became a hero and grew vastly in power.

Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker

As of Lords of the Sith, which occurs only 5 years after after RotS, Vader has surpassed his prior self ( Anakin ) in power.

Vader completed his meditation and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger. He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force.

-- Lords of the Sith.

Speed

Feats

Vader deflects omni-directional blaster fire.

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Vader deflects what's described as a "storm" of blaster fire.

Beak was shooting, too—Namir could hear the sound of energized particles scorching cold air across the hall, but he didn’t dare look. Vader didn’t hesitate or fall. Instead, something appeared in his hand between the pulses of crimson light and suddenly he was holding a weapon, a blade of coherent energy that danced with a twist of his wrist. If Vader had been protected by a force field, it appeared no longer necessary: his energy blade deflected bolts impossibly swiftly, humming and buzzing and crackling as it swept aside a storm of fire.

-- Battlefront: Twilight Company

Vader dodges and deflects blaster fire from an army of thousands of rebels.

No Caption Provided

Scaling

Vader is stated to be far beyond the Ghost crew and requires little effort to defeat them.

What Vader represents to me in Rebels is the ultimate manifestation of your fear, and of your inability to move forward. They are not going to be able to defeat Darth Vader. This is an immovable object. The easiest way to explain it is, our heroes are like level five characters and Vader’s level 50. [Laughs] It’s not going to take much for him to do them in.

Source: http://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-rebels-part-3

Kanan Jarrus, a member of the Ghost Crew, dodges and deflects blaster bolts from hundreds of stormtroopers.

"Standing in the middle of the battlefield, with a hundred blasters pointed at him, Kanan opened himself fully to the Force. He expected it to flood through him like a dam being released, as it had been a long time since he had completely freed himself to its light. He felt nothing of the kind. Instead, his heart calmed and his mind eased. The relief that came was subtle, subdued, like a gentle breeze that cooled on a hot day. A touch, a whisper, a sense of peace. He began to relax.

-

Alone in the middle of the battlefield, Kanan Jarrus ducked, dodged, and deflected the blaster storm directed at him. He seemed to know when and from where each bolt was coming, jumping in the air at the right moment, curving his body to the perfect angle, or slashing his sword just in time. More than a few troopers crumpled, recipients of shots that Kanan deflected off his blade. Without even engaging in hand-to-hand combat, this one man-this Jedi-was holding off an entire platoon of stormtroopers."

-- The Rebellion Begins.

Shields

Feats

Vader can deflect blaster bolts with the Force.

No Caption Provided
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Vader shields himself against collapsing rubble.

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Vader shields himself against a flamethrower.

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Vader shields himself against the explosion of a weapon's factory.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Note: This was the largest weapon's factory in the galaxy.

This is the largest weapons factory in the galaxy, one that runs nonstop, day and night. All fully automated.

-- Star Wars 1: Skywalker Strikes

Scaling

Vader is stated to be far beyond the Ghost crew and requires little effort to defeat them.

What Vader represents to me in Rebels is the ultimate manifestation of your fear, and of your inability to move forward. They are not going to be able to defeat Darth Vader. This is an immovable object. The easiest way to explain it is, our heroes are like level five characters and Vader’s level 50. [Laughs] It’s not going to take much for him to do them in.

Source: http://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-rebels-part-3

Kanan Jarrus, a member of the Ghost Crew, holds back a city block sized explosion for a time.

No Caption Provided
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Miscellaneous

Vader is able to utilize telekinesis on multiple targets and with enough precision to crush hearts.

As his raised right hand curled slowly into a fist, many of them began nervously tugging at the collars of their tunics and cloaks. But it was the Twi’lek prefect, standing not a meter from the Dark Lord, who unexpectedly gasped and brought his hands to his chest as if he had just taken a spear to the heart. Phoca Soot’s lekku shot straight out from the sides of his head as if he were being electrocuted, and he collapsed to his knees in obvious agony, his breath caught in his throat and blood vessels in his head-tails beginning to rupture. His eyes glazed over and his red skin began to pale; then his arms flew back from his chest as if in an act of desperate supplication, and he tipped backward, the left side of his head slamming hard against the blood-slicked floor.

-- Tarkin

This is an older post of mine so it doesn't include some of Vader's more recent showings like manipulating an ocean of lava or a recent demonstration of how powerful SW thrusters are ( a ship that is dwarfed by an ISD is able to propel it into another ISD with enough force to cut through it like butter ).

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CocaColaMan

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Senate

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Vader takes it. He's >> Arima.

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Eredin12

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Vader wins

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AlexTheBoss

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I read and watched tokyo ghoul but I have limited memory of his feats. From what I remember Vader should win, but Kaneki might give him a little trouble in his final form.

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LichVanAstrea

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Void_Reborn

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Vader stomps so hard it's not even funny.

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KingCrimson

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@killbilly: impressive stuff - his force and shielding abilities especially.

From what I *think* I recall from reading the Bane series, force users can’t hold a TK offensive whilst also upholding shields, can they?

Kaneki seems faster than Vader from the speed feats presented, at least in blitz/rush speed, so that could be an option. His healing factor should let him survive pretty much everything Vader can initially throw at him, and he has pretty lethal “force” waves of his own that can obliterate materials much tougher than steel for a building sized radius.

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KingCrimson

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@senate: EoS Kaneki is also >> Arima to be fair.

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Eredin12

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#14  Edited By Eredin12

@kingcrimson:

From what I *think* I recall from reading the Bane series, force users can’t hold a TK offensive whilst also upholding shields, can they?

Bane series is non-canon, that is EU, this is canon Vader and yes they can even in EU, SK used the shield to shield himself while at same time atomizing ship, Vader did it here as well when blasting army while under force shield

No Caption Provided

So i would like to see that Bane thing you are referring?

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AlphaQ

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On-paper Vader should win because of his TK, but in practice I think Kaneki's speed and kagune manipulation should simply overwhelm his lightsaber defenses. I'm not even sure if Vader is FTE, he's consistently at the blur or afterimage level of speed, whereas Kaneki statues people who statues people who seem to vanish into nothing in their attack patterns.

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KillBilly

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#16  Edited By KillBilly

@kingcrimson said:

@killbilly: impressive stuff - his force and shielding abilities especially.

From what I *think* I recall from reading the Bane series, force users can’t hold a TK offensive whilst also upholding shields, can they?

Kaneki seems faster than Vader from the speed feats presented, at least in blitz/rush speed, so that could be an option. His healing factor should let him survive pretty much everything Vader can initially throw at him, and he has pretty lethal “force” waves of his own that can obliterate materials much tougher than steel for a building sized radius.

Material from the Darth Bane Trilogy would be Legends material, but it's actually the opposite anyways. Force user's are able to maintain passive shielding whilst simultaneously utilizing telekinesis and other Force abilities in the DBT.

Vader should have the durability to survive Kaneki's waves if that's the extent of their destructive power.

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Eredin12

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#17  Edited By Eredin12

Lol at Vader not being FTE( funny thing is this is not dumbest thing AlphaQ has said) Kid Anakin was FTE to people, Padwan Obi-Wan was FTE to people, Vader statued blasters which are as fast or faster than bullets, he is the fastest one here

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Void_Reborn

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@alphaq said:

On-paper Vader should win because of his TK, but in practice I think Kaneki's speed and kagune manipulation should simply overwhelm his lightsaber defenses. I'm not even sure if Vader is FTE, he's consistently at the blur or afterimage level of speed, whereas Kaneki statues people who statues people who seem to vanish into nothing in their attack patterns.

Vader already statued omnidirectional blaster fire at point blank range, every shot of which is Mach 5-Mach 15, several times faster than the average bullet. He is massively hypersonic++.

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Eredin12

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#19  Edited By Eredin12

@void_reborn: Guy you are talking with is one of if not worst SW lowballer son this site, i would save energy, guy things fodders like One Piece verse a beat EU GM Luke, for example, all you will see is reaching and lowballing

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Void_Reborn

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@eredin12 said:

@void_reborn: Guy you are talking with is one of if not worst SW lowballer son this site, i would save energy, guy things fodders like One Piece verse a beat EU GM Luke

It's alright I've dealt with far worse. I think we can come to reasonable discussion here.

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Eredin12

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#21  Edited By Eredin12

@void_reborn: Well i suppose there is always worse but this is quite bad, from saying that EU Luke is not even mid tier or something like that to implying that HST chracter can beat 616 Dormammu( somone above Galactus) by using out of context scans. so i just wanted to warn you

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Void_Reborn

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@eredin12 said:

@void_reborn: Well i suppose there is always worse but this is quite bad, from saying that EU Luke is not even mid tier or something like that to implying that HST chracter can beat 616 Dormammu( somone above Galactus) by using out of context scans. so i just wanted to warn you

Lmao okay, gotcha. I'll see for myself.

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citgo

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Vader force chokes him gg

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AlphaQ

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@alphaq said:

On-paper Vader should win because of his TK, but in practice I think Kaneki's speed and kagune manipulation should simply overwhelm his lightsaber defenses. I'm not even sure if Vader is FTE, he's consistently at the blur or afterimage level of speed, whereas Kaneki statues people who statues people who seem to vanish into nothing in their attack patterns.

Vader already statued omnidirectional blaster fire at point blank range, every shot of which is Mach 5-Mach 15, several times faster than the average bullet. He is massively hypersonic++.

Can I see what you're talking about and where the Mach 5-15 number comes from? I think I recall a scene in one of the Legends novels where Vader is mentioned to somehow deflect/avoid multiple bolts that were fired at him at the exact same time during an ambush but I don't recall anything like that in Canon material that I've seen.

@eredin12 said:

@void_reborn: Well i suppose there is always worse but this is quite bad, from saying that EU Luke is not even mid tier or something like that to implying that HST chracter can beat 616 Dormammu( somone above Galactus) by using out of context scans. so i just wanted to warn you

I would never say that, since you mentioned how I think Luke wouldn't solo the OP verse I think you're talking about that time I said Luke doesn't have mid-tier durability because IIRC I said both in the same thread. Don't misquote me without tagging me.

You must really be looking through my history if you found my old Andromeda debate where I made the argument that Dormammu getting defeated by a de-powered Strange using fisticuffs showed that he has baseline human durability without consciously raising his blunt force resistance with magic. I thought Dormammu was like Tim Hunter or Franklin Richards, a universal reality warper with human level durability. Andro discouraged me, and I even think we became amicable since then.

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Void_Reborn

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#25  Edited By Void_Reborn

@alphaq:

Here you go:

No Caption Provided

Here Vader stonewalls and deflects omnidirectional consistent fire coming from about over 10 of these drones (some are clearly off panel).

Every blaster bolt is around mach 5-15 and Vader statued over 9 coming at him from all directions at point-blank range at the same time.

He dived into the street. He rolled, coming up to slam her hip joint with his shoulder. The impact folded her over him; he lifted her, turned, and sprang back for the corner. Bright flares of blaster bolts bracketed invisible sizzles and finger snaps of hypersonic slugs. -Shatterpoint

Slugthrowers are similar to bullet-based weaponry in our modern world, having been dubbed 'obsolete' as blasters took to popularity in the SW universe due to more efficient ammunition with energy packs, it being easier to manage overheating compared to constant reloading and superior penetration power. Hypersonic also falls at a minimum of Mach 5, max being mach 15.

We know that blasters in Star Wars fly at similar speeds, due to this:

From his weapon's top barrel, a bluish-white high charged energy beam shot outward and upward. A microsecond after the beam's ignition, a second shot from the lower weapon's barrel rang out. To the two occupants of room 547, the shots were virtually simultaneous. The energy beam produced by the first shot hit the penthouse window fifteen centimeters away from the ambassador's chest, through this hole a lead alloy slug fired from the weapon's barrel sped through, hitting the ambassador. -Criminal Organisations, Hutts 1

A blaster bolt and slug were fired at a microsecond apart, the bolt hit the penthouse first than the slug came after. Note, the bolt was fired first and hit the window which was 15 cm closer to the shooter compared to the chest of the target, which was hit immediately after by the slug. Mach 5 is labelled as a speed of 1715 metres per second. Seeing as a millisecond is a 100th of a second and a microsecond is a 100th of a millisecond, let's divide out total speed by the 100 integer twice. 17.15 metres per millsecond. 0.1715 metres per microsecond. Now, considering the 15 cm distance difference, 0.1715 metres per microsecond directly converts to 17.15 centimetres per microsecond.

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Eredin12

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#26  Edited By Eredin12

@alphaq:

I would never say that, since you mentioned how I think Luke wouldn't solo the OP verse I think you're talking about that time I said Luke doesn't have mid-tier durability because IIRC I said both in the same thread. Don't misquote me without tagging me.

You siad something like people are putting him agisnt mid tier verses like OP like it is somehow stomp in OP favor when Luke actually solos fodder verse with ease but yes his durabiltiy is not that good but it is a mid tier, but he makes up for it with his other powers

You must really be looking through my history if you found my old Andromeda debate where I made the argument that Dormammu getting defeated by a de-powered Strange using fisticuffs showed that he has baseline human durability without consciously raising his blunt force resistance with magic. I thought Dormammu was like Tim Hunter or Franklin Richards, a universal reality warper with human level durability. Andro discouraged me, and I even think we became amicable since then.

Not quite, believe it or not, you are not the interesting person to me in any way I just searched Dormy threads and i found that spite and i thought why not, lets see maybe there is something funny (sicne often there is something funny in those spite threads) and then i saw your comment and i lost words

Also, FR does not have human durabiltiy, he has universal+ durabiltiy, ceritnaly AF

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AlphaQ

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#27  Edited By AlphaQ
@eredin12 said:

Lol at Vader not being FTE( funny thing is this is not dumbest thing AlphaQ has said) Kid Anakin was FTE to people, Padwan Obi-Wan was FTE to people, Vader statued blasters which are as fast or faster than bullets, he is the fastest one here

Can I see the scans you're using to say Vader is FTE? The only one I know of is when he appears very suddenly when he attacks Tarkins soldiers, and that can be attributed to the stealth Vader was employing.

Vader doesn't scale off of Padawan Obi-Wan, even using in-universe logic and hype Vader is uniquely hindered when it comes to using Force Speed because of his cybernetics. I don't know what you're talking about in regards Kid Anakin but I really doubt he's FTE to anyone.

There's a big difference between projectile timing and combat speed. Vader can potentially time blaster bolts but moving FTE is something entirely different. For instance, Fox Deadpool can bullet-time, but he is never going to move around the room invisibly fast.

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SquadDoubleYou

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Vader probably.

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Eredin12

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@alphaq:

Can I see the scans you're using to say Vader is FTE? The only one I know of is when he appears very suddenly when he attacks Tarkins soldiers, and that can be attributed to the stealth Vader was employing.

That was some IV cloak, yes, Vader has some FTE feats in Lords of sith, and as I siad kid Anakin has them and padawan Obi-Wan

No Caption Provided

There's a big difference between projectile timing and combat speed. Vader can potentially time blaster bolts but moving FTE is something entirely different. For instance, Fox Deadpool can bullet-time, but he is never going to move around the room invisibly fast.

Statuing omnicertinal blaster fire is far above FTE speed, that is combat speed feat, as for Fox Deadpool what he does is far above FTE speed as well, he moves his arms and body at supersonic speed, FTE speed is not nesserly supersonic, all those street tiers that have FTE speed are not supersonic, so what FOX DD does is better, he mac lack travel speed to run at FTE speed around room but in combat speed( CQC) he is supersonic

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AlphaQ

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@void_reborn:

Here you go:

Here Vader stonewalls and deflects omnidirectional consistent fire coming from about over 10 of these drones (some are clearly off panel).

Every blaster bolt is around mach 5-15 and Vader statued over 9 coming at him from all directions at point-blank range at the same time.

See, I don't like using feats of timing unless we see the person move after the fact explicitly, like for instance Neo in the Matrix. A lot of the timing I see in Star Wars I attribute to their precognitive powers. I will say that this is one of the few instances where I can see a legit argument be made for timing, because the shooter is coordinating the shots. It doesn't really make sense to me that cybernetics in the Star Wars universe are fast enough to time blaster bolts though, using an in-universe logic perspective.

He dived into the street. He rolled, coming up to slam her hip joint with his shoulder. The impact folded her over him; he lifted her, turned, and sprang back for the corner. Bright flares of blaster bolts bracketed invisible sizzles and finger snaps of hypersonic slugs. -Shatterpoint

Slugthrowers are similar to bullet-based weaponry in our modern world, having been dubbed 'obsolete' as blasters took to popularity in the SW universe due to more efficient ammunition with energy packs, it being easier to manage overheating compared to constant reloading and superior penetration power. Hypersonic also falls at a minimum of Mach 5, max being mach 15.

We know that blasters in Star Wars fly at similar speeds, due to this:

From his weapon's top barrel, a bluish-white high charged energy beam shot outward and upward. A microsecond after the beam's ignition, a second shot from the lower weapon's barrel rang out. To the two occupants of room 547, the shots were virtually simultaneous. The energy beam produced by the first shot hit the penthouse window fifteen centimeters away from the ambassador's chest, through this hole a lead alloy slug fired from the weapon's barrel sped through, hitting the ambassador. -Criminal Organisations, Hutts 1

A blaster bolt and slug were fired at a microsecond apart, the bolt hit the penthouse first than the slug came after. Note, the bolt was fired first and hit the window which was 15 cm closer to the shooter compared to the chest of the target, which was hit immediately after by the slug. Mach 5 is labelled as a speed of 1715 metres per second. Seeing as a millisecond is a 100th of a second and a microsecond is a 100th of a millisecond, let's divide out total speed by the 100 integer twice. 17.15 metres per millsecond. 0.1715 metres per microsecond. Now, considering the 15 cm distance difference, 0.1715 metres per microsecond directly converts to 17.15 centimetres per microsecond.

But aren't those two sources Legends and not Canon? Galaxy Guide 11 was released back in 1994, for instance.

Also, I think your math is a little off if I'm reading it right. The source just says that the slug was fired a microsecond after the blaster bolt was ignited - not that the blaster bolt covered the space within a microsecond. As in, one sprinter got a head start on his competitor, but it doesn't say if he got to the finish line before the second sprinter got running.

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AlphaQ

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@eredin12: You siad something like people are putting him agisnt mid tier verses like OP like it is somehow stomp in OP favor when Luke actually solos fodder verse with ease but yes his durabiltiy is not that good but it is a mid tier, but he makes up for it with his other powers

Yeah, I basically don't think that Luke can beat armies of mid-tiers or anything. I've seen him get run to death by ambushes of One Sith in Apocalypse (Abeloth, unbeknownst to Luke, was coordinating their attacks under disguise as their leader) and I don't consider your typical Jedi/Sith as anything more than like entry-level mid-tier at the very best.

I don't see what his durability has to show mid-tier status, someone like Spider-Man has way better durability from what I've seen.

Not quite, believe it or not, you are not the interesting person to me in any way I just searched Dormy threads and i found that spite and i thought why not, lets see maybe there is something funny (sicne often there is something funny in those spite threads) and then i saw your comment and i lost words

Also, FR does not have human durabiltiy, he has universal+ durabiltiy, ceritnaly AF

The example doesn't really matter, there are loads of examples. An alternate Marquis of Death got KO'ed by a human hitting him with a candlestick, for instance.

That was some IV cloak, yes, Vader has some FTE feats in Lords of sith, and as I siad kid Anakin has them and padawan Obi-Wan

Fair enough on it being invisibility.

I don't recall any but it would be hard to see FTE in a novel, if you get what I mean.

Vader doesn't scale off of Obi-Wan and when was Kid Anakin FTE?

Statuing omnicertinal blaster fire is far above FTE speed, that is combat speed feat, as for Fox Deadpool what he does is far above FTE speed as well, he moves his arms and body at supersonic speed, FTE speed is not nesserly supersonic, all those street tiers that have FTE speed are not supersonic, so what FOX DD does is better, he mac lack travel speed to run at FTE speed around room but in combat speed( CQC) he is supersonic

I guess it depends on the two feats. I wouldn't say one is innately better than the other, it depends on the details.

I'm pretty sure if you actually used math to calculate it out FTE speeds for a human body in the real world would be something crazy like hypersonic. Just something to think about, if you use real world physics too much things start getting a bit wonky.

Nah, I don't think Deadpool is really swinging his swords that fast bar maybe for like an instant. Regardless, wouldn't Vader be the Deadpool in this analogy in that he might be really fast swinging his lightsaber but lacks feats of being fast on his feat?

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@alphaq:

It doesn't really make sense to me that cybernetics in the Star Wars universe are fast enough to time blaster bolts though, using an in-universe logic perspective.

What do you mean?

But aren't those two sources Legends and not Canon? Galaxy Guide 11 was released back in 1994, for instance.

Oh I didn't realise this thread isn't Legends included. As far as the new canon there is no exact confirmation on blaster speed. It's reasonable to assume they are around as fast as bullets or slightly faster though considering blasters are considered the general favored and superior of slugthrowers in-universe.

Also, I think your math is a little off if I'm reading it right. The source just says that the slug was fired a microsecond after the blaster bolt was ignited - not that the blaster bolt covered the space within a microsecond. As in, one sprinter got a head start on his competitor, but it doesn't say if he got to the finish line before the second sprinter got running.

The source doesn't have to say that the blaster bolt covered the space within a microsecond because that isn't the point. I was just scaling the blaster speed to slugthrower speed using that source with the other source's hypersonic statement for reference.

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Eredin12

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#33  Edited By Eredin12

@alphaq:

Yeah, I basically don't think that Luke can beat armies of mid-tiers or anything. I've seen him get run to death by ambushes of One Sith in Apocalypse (Abeloth, unbeknownst to Luke, was coordinating their attacks under disguise as their leader) and I don't consider your typical Jedi/Sith as anything more than like entry-level mid-tier at the very best.

He can easily do that, there is the context that was explained to you in the previous debate you had, Luke has stomped armies of people comparable to Jedi with a fraction of his powers, he has moon level TK and would solo OP verse with ease, but this is not debate about Luke so level that aside

I don't see what his durability has to show mid-tier status, someone like Spider-Man has way better durability from what I've seen.

Yeah no Luke has much better durabiltiy and striking feats than Spiderman, but not only is this not debate about that, i was just talking to Void since he knows Luke and his feats about what kind of person you are not only i dont want to debate EU with somone like you but that has nothing to do with this thread so it would go against rules

The example doesn't really matter, there are loads of examples. An alternate Marquis of Death got KO'ed by a human hitting him with a candlestick, for instance.

I don't care about her, so whatever

I don't recall any but it would be hard to see FTE in a novel, if you get what I mean.

Yes but the narrator describes it

Vader doesn't scale off of Obi-Wan and when was Kid Anakin FTE?

Vader scales vastly above young Obi-Wan so yeah as for Anakin go on his canon RT on Reddit on speed section, he cuts apart guns at FTE speed before people cna realize what even happend

I guess it depends on the two feats. I wouldn't say one is innately better than the other, it depends on the details.

Statuing blasters is vastly above FTE sped, that takes high hypersonic speed while FTE is done by peak humans

I'm pretty sure if you actually used math to calculate it out FTE speeds for a human body in the real world would be something crazy like hypersonic. Just something to think about, if you use real world physics too much things start getting a bit wonky.

Not quite, supersonic is enough at close range that street tiers do it but i am not a fan of fan calcs

Nah, I don't think Deadpool is really swinging his swords that fast bar maybe for like an instant.

Its not matter of opinion its fact, who cares what you think lol( i am not trying to be rude but that is just fact) the movie itself showed it, he moves his swords and body at supersonic speeds, that is his combat speed

No Caption Provided

While he may not be able to run fast on his feet he will easily keep up with anyone who can and blitz them in CQC unless they have supersonic feats

Regardless, wouldn't Vader be the Deadpool in this analogy in that he might be really fast swinging his lightsaber but lacks feats of being fast on his feat?

Not quite, since Vader has FTE feats and scaling, besides its not like he needs travel speed, fact that he can move his body that fast in CQC shows that he can keep up and in this case even blitz this guy and he only needs that since he will use force to crush him

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@alphaq:

I don't recall any but it would be hard to see FTE in a novel, if you get what I mean.

If we are talking about Legends, even Grievous is massively FTE because of a ROTS statement on his cybernetics and he's FTE to a person like Obi-Wan on one occasion, not just a regular human. Vader's force augmentation allows him to move faster than Obi-Wan, who can block Grievous's attacks.

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Vader

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KingCrimson

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#36  Edited By KingCrimson

@eredin12 said:

@kingcrimson:

From what I *think* I recall from reading the Bane series, force users can’t hold a TK offensive whilst also upholding shields, can they?

Bane series is non-canon, that is EU, this is canon Vader and yes they can even in EU, SK used the shield to shield himself while at same time atomizing ship, Vader did it here as well when blasting army while under force shield

Ah, I see. Impressive stuff.

Material from the Darth Bane Trilogy would be Legends material, but it's actually the opposite anyways. Force user's are able to maintain passive shielding whilst simultaneously utilizing telekinesis and other Force abilities in the DBT.

Vader should have the durability to survive Kaneki's waves if that's the extent of their destructive power.

From what I recall during Bane’s “training” arc, they maintain passive force shields that prevent them from being randomly force attacked at any point (which was a nice explanation if I’m honest, as thats something that I’ve always wondered about SW fights), but it didn’t prevent physical attacks, not was there anything that suggested the passive shield was capable of withstanding attacks with a high level of power or intensity. If it‘s EU material though I guess it hardly matters.

What durability feats does Vader have that suggest he can no-sell an attack like that?

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KillBilly

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@killbilly said:

Material from the Darth Bane Trilogy would be Legends material, but it's actually the opposite anyways. Force user's are able to maintain passive shielding whilst simultaneously utilizing telekinesis and other Force abilities in the DBT.

Vader should have the durability to survive Kaneki's waves if that's the extent of their destructive power.

From what I recall during Bane’s “training” arc, they maintain passive force shields that prevent them from being randomly force attacked at any point (which was a nice explanation if I’m honest, as thats something that I’ve always wondered about SW fights), but it didn’t prevent physical attacks, not was there anything that suggested the passive shield was capable of withstanding attacks with a high level of power or intensity. If it‘s EU material though I guess it hardly matters.

What durability feats does Vader have that suggest he can no-sell an attack like that?

Starkiller had passive Force shields that defended him against physical attacks with a high level of power/intensity.

But how powerful your passive shields are really depend on how powerful the Force user is.

The aforementioned one of surviving the explosion of the biggest weapons facility in the galaxy.

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KingCrimson

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@killbilly: He did? I played both FU games but I don’t recall the instance.

Wasn’t Vader using shields during that? Or did he just straight up tank it?

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KillBilly

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#39  Edited By KillBilly

@kingcrimson said:

@killbilly: He did? I played both FU games but I don’t recall the instance.

Wasn’t Vader using shields during that? Or did he just straight up tank it?

They were in the novelization. I can quote the passage if you like.

Was never stated but I assume he was using Force shields as his armor has been shown to be damaged by less.

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KingCrimson

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@killbilly: I’d be interested to read it, for my own curiosity.

I’d assume Vader’s passive shields aren’t all that, given he has been tagged plenty of times in canon that I can recall, and I’ve only seen the movies, played the FU games and read 2 comics (Though pretty sure Vader down is EU?). Assuming Ken can surprise him, trick him, outspeed or overpower him he should be able to bypass them right?

That said, Vader seems pretty fast from a holistic standpoint. Not sure on calcs for his speed, but Ken is really, really quick and plenty skilled. The only thing Vader has that can actually kill him is force choke, but Ken can counter that easy enough with an RC blast.

What’s Vader’s stamina like?

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TheVivas

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@killbilly: He did? I played both FU games but I don’t recall the instance.

Wasn’t Vader using shields during that? Or did he just straight up tank it?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

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KingCrimson

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@thevivas: I’ve seen the scans - they were posted a little earlier - I just wasn’t sure whether it was ever clarified for certain whether he was/wasn’t using shields.

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I don't follow current Star Wars but it seems like Vader would win long as he's faster, his lightsaber would likely char/melt/ash Ken in a way he can't heal from.

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Vader.

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KillBilly

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#45  Edited By KillBilly

@kingcrimson said:

@killbilly: I’d be interested to read it, for my own curiosity.

I’d assume Vader’s passive shields aren’t all that, given he has been tagged plenty of times in canon that I can recall, and I’ve only seen the movies, played the FU games and read 2 comics (Though pretty sure Vader down is EU?). Assuming Ken can surprise him, trick him, outspeed or overpower him he should be able to bypass them right?

That said, Vader seems pretty fast from a holistic standpoint. Not sure on calcs for his speed, but Ken is really, really quick and plenty skilled. The only thing Vader has that can actually kill him is force choke, but Ken can counter that easy enough with an RC blast.

What’s Vader’s stamina like?

Here you go:

"This was where it got difficult. He needed to maintain the Force shield against the sort of heat he might find in the outer layers of a star. He also had to keep in mind the target ahead - a target he couldn't see through the plasma, but had to hit square-on or else the planetary shield generators wouldn't fail. No matter what happened, he had to fly straight.

-

He raised his hands and spread his fingers wide. His eyes closed tightly against the fiery brightness of the plasma. With each bucking and shaking of the ship beneath him, he encouraged himself to ride with it instead of fighting it. He was part of the ship, not a passenger. He was the ship, not a reckless pilot guiding it to destruction. In the same way that he could feel his fingers and toes, his mind seeped outward into the metal and plastoid of the frigate, until every joint and weld, every porthole and deck became part of his sense of being. There was no line anymore between Starkiller and the Salvation. They were one and the same being, from the perspective of the Force. He raised his right arm, and the ship followed the movement, listing slowly and heavily to starboard." - The Force Unleashed II.

Well, we don't know if passive Force defenses even exist in Canon tbh. They're only confirmed to exist in Legends.

Vader fought an army of thousands of Rebels with tanks and modern weaponry. So pretty good.

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@eredin12: @void_reborn:

What do you mean?

Star Wars machinery shouldn't be faster than blaster bolts because then droids would be a lot more overpowered. And it basically makes intuitive sense that if you can create machinery that is massively hypersonic+ then your projectiles should be even faster considering much less energy comes into play when accelerating projectiles than appendages.

Oh I didn't realise this thread isn't Legends included. As far as the new canon there is no exact confirmation on blaster speed. It's reasonable to assume they are around as fast as bullets or slightly faster though considering blasters are considered the general favored and superior of slugthrowers in-universe.

Sure, I guess. It's still my assumption that SW get Legends feats as well.

The source doesn't have to say that the blaster bolt covered the space within a microsecond because that isn't the point. I was just scaling the blaster speed to slugthrower speed using that source with the other source's hypersonic statement for reference.

Fair enough.

@alphaq:

I don't recall any but it would be hard to see FTE in a novel, if you get what I mean.

If we are talking about Legends, even Grievous is massively FTE because of a ROTS statement on his cybernetics and he's FTE to a person like Obi-Wan on one occasion, not just a regular human. Vader's force augmentation allows him to move faster than Obi-Wan, who can block Grievous's attacks.

I also remember him seemingly teleporting with speed when intimidating Gunray in that novel.

@eredin12

He can easily do that, there is the context that was explained to you in the previous debate you had, Luke has stomped armies of people comparable to Jedi with a fraction of his powers, he has moon level TK and would solo OP verse with ease, but this is not debate about Luke so level that aside

Luke doesn't have moon level TK at all. The dovin bassals you're scaling off created black holes that were so weak their location was tracked by insects dying and air currents, couldn't absorb bolders thrown by Luke with not enough power to destroy a ship (moon level durability of SW ships?) and wasn't absorbing ships right alongside them. Additionally, it was confirmed by the writer that the bassals moon level feat was only accomplished by particularly powerful bassal latching onto a planet's core to redirect its gravity - not something Luke ever had to contend with.

Yeah no Luke has much better durabiltiy and striking feats than Spiderman, but not only is this not debate about that, i was just talking to Void since he knows Luke and his feats about what kind of person you are not only i dont want to debate EU with somone like you but that has nothing to do with this thread so it would go against rules

What're Luke's durability feats?

Vader scales vastly above young Obi-Wan so yeah as for Anakin go on his canon RT on Reddit on speed section, he cuts apart guns at FTE speed before people cna realize what even happend

What makes you say Vader scales above Obi-Wan in terms of speed? You could probably make a scaling chain for combat speed, although I'm not sure how you could do it, but definitely not travel speed.

Can you show me the specific instance that you're talking about.

Statuing blasters is vastly above FTE sped, that takes high hypersonic speed while FTE is done by peak humans

Deflecting fire from multiple machine-guns has also been done by peak humans.

Its not matter of opinion its fact, who cares what you think lol( i am not trying to be rude but that is just fact) the movie itself showed it, he moves his swords and body at supersonic speeds, that is his combat speed

No Caption Provided

While he may not be able to run fast on his feet he will easily keep up with anyone who can and blitz them in CQC unless they have supersonic feats

That's just the way speed is portrayed, a character might react to a projectile but their consistent combat speed throughout a movie is a lot slower. Regular people reacted to and tagged Deadpool over the course of his movie, he was portrayed as a peak human and not a speedster even approaching the speed of sound. Similar to someone like Batman or Daredevil who can dodge bullets but have never broken the sound barrier with a punch.

Not quite, since Vader has FTE feats and scaling, besides its not like he needs travel speed, fact that he can move his body that fast in CQC shows that he can keep up and in this case even blitz this guy and he only needs that since he will use force to crush him

Not really because even if Vader is really fast swinging his blades around but relatively slow on his feat then he's at a huge disadvantage because Kaneki is so mobile and capable of increasing his kagune size to attack Vader from afar.

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Eredin12

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#47  Edited By Eredin12

@alphaq:

Luke doesn't have moon level TK at all. The dovin bassals you're scaling off created black holes that were so weak their location was tracked by insects dying and air currents, couldn't absorb bolders thrown by Luke with not enough power to destroy a ship (moon level durability of SW ships?)

He does and i debunekd that in our previous debate we had on Aizen thread, so i will not waste my time agian, i will not debate EU luke with you, in fact, i would rather prefer for you not to tag me in future at all

and wasn't absorbing ships right alongside them. Additionally, it was confirmed by the writer that the bassals moon level feat was only accomplished by particularly powerful bassal latching onto a planet's core to redirect its gravity - not something Luke ever had to contend with.

Debunekd, that was not wirter that wrote that feat, he had nothing no do with Luke, he did not write it, he siad he was not even sure can it pull moon while other canon sources confirmed that it can which shows just how unreliable he is, but you dont care about context do you, lets just lowball, that is your strategy

And as i siad dont want to debate EU Luke with somone like you, especially not on a thread that has nothing to do with them

What makes you say Vader scales above Obi-Wan in terms of speed? You could probably make a scaling chain for combat speed, although I'm not sure how you could do it, but definitely not travel speed.

Force speed is a result of force arguanmtnatin, Vader has vastly superior force powers than young Obi, so he can amp himslef much more

"Can you show me the specific instance that you're talking about."

As i said go on credit canon Anakin RT and you will see it on speed section, i can't be bothered to do it just because you are lazy to type few words on google

Deflecting fire from multiple machine-guns has also been done by peak humans.

Sure but irelvant for this, some peak humans like Caine that do that are indeed supersonic if not above in combat

That's just the way speed is portrayed, a character might react to a projectile but their consistent combat speed throughout a movie is a lot slower.

Its not if chracter can move their limbs that fast then they are that fast in combat, they are not just reacting to it but also moving their limbs that fast, cuting at that speed, swinging their arms, there is no reason they would be lower in combat, but movies do use cinematic timing which is why Wade and DCEU WW look that slow, peak human, but they are supersonic in verse, they just slow it down for us to see, that is not them being portrayed as slow but just movie using cinematic timing which is common in almost evrey form of movie/tv or anime

Regular people reacted to and tagged Deadpool over the course of his movie, he was portrayed as a peak human and not a speedster even approaching the speed of sound.

Wade is a supersonic speedster, lmao at him being peak human, this agian just futher shows what kind of person you are( and why i dislike debating with you, you are probably the only debater i have no respect for on vine tbh, I never saw somone claiming FOX Deadpool is peak human level in speed before, you only prove my point further, whcih is why i prefer to ignore you in general and would be glad if you extend me same curiosity, i did not even tag you here, i just talked with Void about who you are ) sure normal people can tag him because of his durabiltiy and HL he does not care for it, but he has bltized them as well, and we know that he is supersonic by his feats, so yeah he is supersonic in combat as shown by gif above

Similar to someone like Batman or Daredevil who can dodge bullets but have never broken the sound barrier with a punch.

This alone shows just how litle you know, breaking sound barrier happends very litle in fiction, DCEU Superman did not do it when he stauted JL, i guess he was not supersonic right? FOX QS also did not break it is he subsonic? No writers jut ignore that, not creating sonic boom does not make you subsonic in fiction but yes Bruce dodging bullet in comcis is also good to combat speed feat, comic peak humans are extremly fast, nobady is denying that, some are supersonic as well

Not really because even if Vader is really fast swinging his blades around but relatively slow on his feat then he's at a huge disadvantage because Kaneki is so mobile and capable of increasing his kagune size to attack Vader from afar.

Irelvant, he does not need travel speed, that is not disadvantage at all

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Lord_God

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@killbilly: When did Vader manipulate an Ocean of Lava? Would you consider it to be one of his best tk feats?

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@sy8000: I’m not so sure. Weaker ghouls than Kaneki have healed from being engulfed in extremely hot flames and being charred by electricity (Takizawa and Mutsuki, respectively), so I think there’s an argument that he should be perfectly fine healing damage from a lightsaber.

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#50  Edited By Void_Reborn

@alphaq:

Star Wars machinery shouldn't be faster than blaster bolts because then droids would be a lot more overpowered. And it basically makes intuitive sense that if you can create machinery that is massively hypersonic+ then your projectiles should be even faster considering much less energy comes into play when accelerating projectiles than appendages.

What machinery? Vader's cybernetics? That isn't his cybernetics' speed. It's his force augmentation and his precog doing the reacting/deflecting.

Also you don't have to be faster than a blaster bolt to dodge it, this applies to every projectile type. And yes there is machinery in SW faster than blaster bolts but that doesn't make anything overpowered because its either not combat-related at all or extremely expensive to manufacture and rare (Grievous).

I also remember him seemingly teleporting with speed when intimidating Gunray in that novel.

Your memory serves you right. He has also seemingly teleported while casually conversing with a Neimoidian. He moves across the room that fast.