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#1 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio
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  • Book 3 Katara vs Book 2 Finale Siblings
  • Morals Off
  • Battle at the North Pole, daylight:
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#3 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000 Dunno, I shall wait for others responses and arguments before making a final decision, but it's been a while since a battle thread has made me think this hard, good job.

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#4 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Killerwasp (17444 posts) - - Show Bio

Duo

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#6 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Edited by AvatarReiko (1325 posts) - - Show Bio

The siblings overwhelm her rather quickly. Book 2 Azula is effectively the same as Book 3 and Zuko back then was still plenty powerful and was able to match Katara on his own. Sure, Katara has a bigger water source here but I think Azula participation compensates and mitigates that advantage,

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#8 Edited by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@avatarreiko: Book 3 Katara is significantly more powerful than book 2 Katara, who Zuko was matching (for less than a minute whilst she only used water arms) and who Azula was losing to. It's not just that she has unlimited water, its also that the siblings are literally standing in it.

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#9 Edited by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43234 posts) - - Show Bio

Fire team.

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#11 Edited by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

Fire Team.

Katara vs Azula is already close. Zuko just tips the fight for Azula as they fight together.

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#12 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3077 posts) - - Show Bio

Duo, without any trouble. Book 3 Azula = Book 2 Azula. Azula by EoS was already about the same as Katara. With Zuko's help this is easy.

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#13 Posted by FaithAndBegorrah (28 posts) - - Show Bio

Fire team. Theyll overwhelm her despite the environment advantage.

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#14 Posted by sineyaprime (1360 posts) - - Show Bio

In this environment, I actually think Katara could take this.

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#15 Posted by deactivated-59dfd33ed3601 (5575 posts) - - Show Bio

Could Katara just bloodbend since morals are off?

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#16 Edited by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio

In this environment, I actually think Katara could take this.

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#17 Edited by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio

Team.

@somayareece said:

Could Katara just bloodbend since morals are off?

Katara can only bloodbend on a full moon.

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#18 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@sineyaprime said:

In this environment, I actually think Katara could take this.

I'm going with this. She can use her iceboarding to outmaneuver the siblings (as in, make sure both of them are always on the same side of her) then throw aoe at them like this:

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The wave Azula evaporated was smaller, and the initial part of that wave where she raises the water can be used to block any attack the siblings throw at her. Whilst they focus on dodging or neutralizing that wave, she can open up the ground on Zuko the same way she did at 3:38:

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Once Zuko falls Azula will follow. If they engage her in close range in this environment they leave themselves vulnerable to a flash freeze, so they'll be forced to fight mid-long range and take environmental aoe icicles and waves, as well as large water blasts that freeze on contact to the the face.

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#19 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: damn, nice breakdown. Better one than I could ever muster up probably.

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#20 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio

Duo, without any trouble. Book 3 Azula = Book 2 Azula. Azula by EoS was already about the same as Katara. With Zuko's help this is easy.

Yeah, she was pretty much on Katara's level. But in this enivronment?

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#21 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3077 posts) - - Show Bio

@justicethorpsylocke said:

Duo, without any trouble. Book 3 Azula = Book 2 Azula. Azula by EoS was already about the same as Katara. With Zuko's help this is easy.

Yeah, she was pretty much on Katara's level. But in this enivronment?

Hmmm, I'd still give it to the duo. Katara has had her water attacks incinerated by Azula before. Zuko should be able to pull off something similar. Together, they simply overpower her and overwhelm her with speed and aggression

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#22 Posted by ShepardOakenPrime (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like morals off waterbenders are the most dangerous. Ice spikes and sharp water whips that can cut through metal easily would be the ending factor of almost every battle. This is a very close battle though, as Katara had trouble with just Azula and both siblings can dodge some attacks. I'm not entirely sure Katara would waste her time with waves if she knows they can be incinerated. She may instead use that amount of water to block the likely huge attacks coming from the siblings.

Like it's been said Katara probably takes the majority due to environment, without it she would get overwhelmed.

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#23 Edited by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@shepardoakenprime: I don't think Kataras ever had too much trouble with Azula only. Both times they fought she had the upper hand or won (granted Azula was insane the second time, though still amped by the comet), and when you consider that all of that was morals on/ in character...

And if she's already using huge amounts of water to block, why not send that water flying at the siblings in a wave? Even if the combined efforts of Azula and Zuko evaporate it (which I'm not confident they could since her season 3 wave is bigger than her season 2 wave, and Zuko hasn't shown the ability to evaporate waves) , that will take time and leaves them open for another attack.

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#24 Posted by ShepardOakenPrime (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: That's true I forgot she had her until Zuko came in.

I'm not sure the wave wouldn't evaporate though. Especially if she uses snow instead of water. As long as the part that's going to hit them is evaporated it doesn't matter how big it is, and sure we don't know if Zuko can help out but Azula is enough.

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#25 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: @shepardoakenprime: Something to note is that Mako was able to nearly vaporize Ming's Hua water hands with fire blasts. I'm not sure how that would translate to waves or Zuko's blasts but I think it's notable here.

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#26 Edited by ShepardOakenPrime (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Well from that then I think it's fair to say Zuko can as well. I mean water evaporates at 112 degrees fahrenheit so it wouldn't make sense that Zuko couldn't do so.

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#27 Edited by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Mako being able to deal with Mings water arms for less than a minute before getting trapped by them (he tries to make a flame in his hand but Ming doesn't care and uses her arm to completely engulf his flame) and oneshot, doesn't translate at all to Zuko being able to evaporate one of Kataras (who definitely has Ming outclassed in raw power anyway) stronger moves.

If you're talking about the finale fight, then Ming lost half her water from getting slammed by AS Korra, the fact that she was able to fight Mako at all with that little water isn't a good showing for Mako, and has nothing to do with Zuko, especially when you consider that he has faced Katara's water arms before and was unable to evaporate them, instead he matched them with his own fire whips.

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#28 Posted by ShepardOakenPrime (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: Well nothing says that the stronger the bender the more...resistant the water is to fire. Unless you want to argue Zuko can't even reach 112 degrees fahrenheit with his fire, which doesn't make sense, then Zuko should be able to evaporate water.

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#29 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot:Well, Azula was able to deflect one very big attack even before the tsunami came:

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#30 Edited by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@shepardoakenprime:

Snow would melt to water before being evaporated. If Katara used snow the siblings would have to try even harder to evaporate her attack. Any evaporation move leaves them wide open for Katara to cause a waterspout to erupt beneath their feet.

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#31 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@shepardoakenprime: Never said he couldn't evaporate water. I'm saying that he can't evaporate waves of that magnitude.

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#32 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Ok? I thought we were discussing Zuko. Also not saying that the siblings can't block some of her attacks. But her season 3 offense was bigger and better than her season 2 offense, especially when she has more water to work with.

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#33 Posted by ShepardOakenPrime (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: True snow may give her the upper hand. Well if they just attack the wave then they should be ready for more, not stay in the stance Azula was in. And again only one needs to evaporate a wave.

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#34 Posted by ShepardOakenPrime (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: I don't know why Katara would make a 50 ft wave, one that would leave her vulnerable, for 2 people.

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#35 Edited by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@shepardoakenprime: Because if you look at the ship gif, it doesn't leave her vulnerable at all. The part where she raises the water to prep the wave will act as a great water shield for the siblings attacks. After she lets the wave lose she is free to do other things, Katara will be finished the move by the time Azula starts evaporating it, which will leave her vulnerable. Obviously sending the wave at just one of them will leave her open to the other, but not if she sends it at both of them.

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#36 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Ok? I thought we were discussing Zuko. Also not saying that the siblings can't block some of her attacks. But her season 3 offense was bigger and better than her season 2 offense, especially when she has more water to work with.

No, I mean that, if Azula can block it that way, Zuko should be able to, even if he has to give it more effort maybe.

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#37 Edited by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio

@shepardoakenprime said:

@vengefulshot: I don't know why Katara would make a 50 ft wave, one that would leave her vulnerable, for 2 people.

There is also that one:

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She can make big ones while surfing around and maybe she can Flash Freeze Azula before she can vaporize it.

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#38 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: You can't just give Zuko Azulas feats... It would be different if it was a simple water blast or something, but blocking that attack involved high end defense on Azulas part.

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#39 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: I'm talking about the screenshot I posed, not Azula vaporizing the wave.

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#40 Posted by ShepardOakenPrime (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: She still leaves herself pretty vulnerable while making the attack, but I guess that depends on how far away they start. I agree the wave would help, but just not sure she would even make one and make one successfully.

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#41 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: I know. It's high end defense that seemed to involve Azula making her flames solid again, otherwise it would've been overpowered like her regular blasts were later by a less powerful water attack, other than deflected.

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#42 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by ShepardOakenPrime (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: She had to stand still and bend it for a second, morals off Zuko and Azula are not going to sit there while she does so.

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#44 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@shepardoakenprime: True, they will most likely attack her with fire, which she will block by raising the wave, then counter by sending the wave towards them.

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#45 Posted by ShepardOakenPrime (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: If she's busy trying to get the wave up, she can't block an attack.

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#46 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@shepardoakenprime: The raising of the wave was instant.

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It took a while to reach it's maximum amplitude, but that doesn't matter considering a tenth of it's maximum amplitude is more than enough height to cover Katara and block any instant offense the siblings launch at her. Unless you think that season 2 siblings have enough fire power to blast through a shield as thick as that water wave instantly.

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#47 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27717 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: I know. It's high end defense that seemed to involve Azula making her flames solid again, otherwise it would've been overpowered like her regular blasts were later by a less powerful water attack, other than deflected.

She didn't make her fire solid here. The water hadns were different. She attacked last minute allowing them to get around her blast. Here, she attacked faster than the wave reached her, and the wave is not able to bind her blast like the water hands. It wasn't high end defence.

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#48 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000:

I disagree with that interpretation. Regardless, it still doesn't prove Zuko can evaporate water waves of that magnitude.

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#49 Posted by ShepardOakenPrime (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot: It was not instant, she had to kick and bend down before the wave started to rise. I still don't think she has a reason to make that big of a wave. That's just not her style when fighting.

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#50 Posted by vengefulshot (2157 posts) - - Show Bio

@shepardoakenprime: The moment she bends down, it starts to rise. Where does she kick? Even if it wasn't instant ( which it is), the siblings attacks still have a travels speeds, it will be up by the time any attack reaches her.