Katara Vs tonraq

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Aystarr

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Surprised this has not been before.

Katara is end of book 1 only.

Fight takes place in the spirit oasis.

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Aystarr

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Masma94

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End of book 1 only ?

Then Tonraq should win.

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ANTHP2000

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Honestly, I remain more impressed by Katara. Tonraq's physical condition is better but that is it.

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byondeon

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#5  Edited By byondeon

Honestly, this should probably be closer than people may think. However I would give Katara the bending advantage and Tonraq the physical advantage. And honestly, I would say Katara win, based solely on the last 3 episodes. Before she reached northern tribe, she would have lost tbh.

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Aystarr

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@masma94: How would you compare his bending prowess to that of B1 katara? And why do you think tonraq wins?

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Aystarr

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@anthp2000: TBH, I Really don't remember anything impressive from B1 katara(against tonraq) apart from stalemating zuko, what (feats) makes you think she can pull it off?

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Masma94

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End of Book 1 Katara is still far from her B2 and B3 selves in terms of waterbending power and skills and Tonraq has superior physical abilities and was able of holding his own, even if it was for a short time, against the very formidable opponent that is Zaheer.

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chloros

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#9  Edited By chloros

I see this fight being similar to the Unalaq vs Tonraq fight. Tonraq prefers close quarters combat, where as Katara would rather manipulate her surroundings to her advantage. Book One Katara showed some massive flash freezing. Tonraq will have a hard time closing the distance, and blocking her aoe attacks, and that will ultimately lead to his downfall.

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And she showed she could hang with Zuko in close combat. I know firebending is different, but it's more of a similar approach that Toranq would take.

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geekryan

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Honestly, I remain more impressed by Katara. Tonraq's physical condition is better but that is it.

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Aystarr

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@chloros: Nice one , made me rethink my initial choice

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Aystarr

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#12  Edited By Aystarr

@masma94: ikr!!, but I think b1 katara should be able to replicate tonraq's feat against zaheer

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Aystarr

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Aystarr

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@tektonic @thebuckaronatr @crimson-feather @shepardoakenprime @jdogg @gunchar16

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EmmaFrostXmen

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Still Katara, Tonraq was mediocre at best, and Katara post training was >|= Zuko (he only won from a surprise attack she didn’t have proper time to block) (by end of series she is > Zuko). Tonraq doesn’t have the feats to keep up at all tbh

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Tektonic

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#16  Edited By Tektonic

Is this a joke? Tonraq stomps. I get Tonraq got smacked by his opponents, but they were all far more dangerous than B1 Katara.

She couldn't even stop one foggy swamp benders waterbending without Aang's help in B2, there is no way she can beat Tonraq.

No Caption Provided

Compare that to Tonraq battling Desna and Eska, Unalaq, Zaheer...and it's not even close.

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Viking1205

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Honestly, I remain more impressed by Katara. Tonraq's physical condition is better but that is it.

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Aystarr

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@tektonic: A lot of votes are in katara's favour tho, what do you think about that?

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Aystarr

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geekryan

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@aystarr: Even before her training, Katara was able to hold her own against Pakku, a master waterbender. Post-training, she improved significantly. Amongst waterbenders, Tonraq is low-tier. He has good statements to back him up, he's a good soldier/fighter/leader/tactician, but in terms of pure waterbending, he isn't particularly impressive. He got wrecked by Unalaq while taking him by surprise...He got wrecked by Zaheer when he had Korra as back-up.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@aystarr: Pakku said she’s improved more than any water bends he’s ever seen. Before that she could already not get stomped by him (although he wasn’t trying, he was still impressed). Tonraq’s only feat is having Korra on the defensive for a few seconds which was only due to a sneak attack.

Katara’s feats are just plain better

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vengefulshot

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@byondeon said:

Honestly, this should probably be closer than people may think. However I would give Katara the bending advantage and Tonraq the physical advantage. And honestly, I would say Katara win, based solely on the last 3 episodes. Before she reached northern tribe, she would have lost tbh.

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Tektonic

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: @aystarr A lot of votes are in katara's favour tho, what do you think about that?

Well since you asked I'll defend the macho exiled water tribe prince for a second
Well since you asked I'll defend the macho exiled water tribe prince for a second

Tonraq fought waterbenders who would slamdunk B1 Katara, he just doesn't have that many wins. He's also one of the lesser known characters so his feats aren't that well known.

For example:

@chloros said:

I see this fight being similar to the Unalaq vs Tonraq fight. Tonraq prefers close quarters combat, where as Katara would rather manipulate her surroundings to her advantage.

Tonraq has actually consistently manipulated his surroundings in every fight scene he had in the show.

Confines The Rebel Spirit in a prison
Confines The Rebel Spirit in a prison
Flash Freezes a dark spirit
Flash Freezes a dark spirit
Ice Pillars a defenseless Korra to safety
Ice Pillars a defenseless Korra to safety
Flash freezes the NWT soldiers
Flash freezes the NWT soldiers
Raises a huge ice wall in front of Unalaq's face to block his vision
Raises a huge ice wall in front of Unalaq's face to block his vision
Raises an ice pillar to try and hit Zaheer with
Raises an ice pillar to try and hit Zaheer with

Book One Katara showed some massive flash freezing. Tonraq will have a hard time closing the distance, and blocking her aoe attacks, and that will ultimately lead to his downfall.

Tonraq himself can use pretty huge water blasts and waves, more so than B1 Katara.

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No Caption Provided

@geekryan said:

He got wrecked by Unalaq while taking him by surprise...

Yes he lost soundly to Unalaq, but as the writers stated, Tonraq exhausted himself after hours of endless fighting, and was badly injured by Desna and Eska's surprise attack. He would have done substantially better otherwise.
Yes he lost soundly to Unalaq, but as the writers stated, Tonraq exhausted himself after hours of endless fighting, and was badly injured by Desna and Eska's surprise attack. He would have done substantially better otherwise.

He got wrecked by Zaheer when he had Korra as back-up.

He did the best he could with two water pouches, is that not a great skill showing? Especially when we already know his teammate Korra was manacled and bolted by Zaheer and P'Li to prevent her from bending properly. Tonraq already proved Zaheer couldn't beat him solo, needing P'Li to step in.

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@aystarr: Tonraq’s only feat is having Korra on the defensive for a few seconds which was only due to a sneak attack.

Who?

Katara’s feats are just plain better

Tonraq has fought much more powerful waterbenders though, even the fodder he beat can scale him significantly above Katara, for the sheer volume of water they can bend individually.

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Let alone Desna and Eska, and worst of all Unalaq. He has scale, power, attack rate, and technique.

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Aystarr

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@tektonic: But kataras power and scale is far above those fodders you mentioned, I would even say she can single-handedly do what it took a group of them to do, let's not forget she was actually very powerful from the beginning, she destroyed the iceberg that was keeping aang covered unintentionally with just a wave of her hands. but Im also thinking the location could easily give tonraq the advantage by closing in especially against a b1 katara.

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Tektonic

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@aystarr said:

@tektonic: But kataras power and scale is far above those fodders you mentioned, I would even say she can single-handedly do what it took a group of them to do, let's not forget she was actually very powerful from the beginning, she destroyed the iceberg that was keeping aang covered unintentionally with just a wave of her hands. but Im also thinking the location could easily give tonraq the advantage by closing in especially against a b1 katara.

That iceberg she cracked was very small, during B1 even Aang could raise small waves of water easier than she could.

Even measuring the waves in that gif, they are scaled against giant warships, huge cargo ships, and towers, even Katara's ship feat is smaller(but more powerful) in season 3.

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Aystarr

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@tektonic: https://tenor.com/w0e5.gif

I wouldn't call that small

But even at that, she has shown more power feats than that, and unlike skill which is kinda acquired, raw power is something that one is born with so, I would say b1 katara is still more powerful than tonraq and TBH a little more skillful, tonraq moves were basic af, but tonraq has the physicals, better manoeuvres and more experience

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byondeon

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@tektonic: Honestly, B1 Katara would win thanks to the Northern Water Tribe training.

While Pakku might not have fought to the best of his abilities, Katara still fought him and either stalemated him or beat him, can't remember, but that fight would alone put her above Tonraq. Not by much, as I don't think Pakku was fighting at 100%.

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Tektonic

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#28  Edited By Tektonic

@aystarr said:

@tektonic: https://tenor.com/w0e5.gif

I wouldn't call that small

That's a generic iceberg image though, this is what she broke.

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But even at that, she has shown more power feats than that, and unlike skill which is kinda acquired, raw power is something that one is born with so, I would say b1 katara is still more powerful than tonraq

She doesn't though, when training with Aang she could barely pick up water properly, and after training with Pakku, her scale against Zuko wasn't nearly as close, Pakku himself needed the help of multiple waterbenders to raise enough water to stop one boulder.

and TBH a little more skillful, tonraq moves were basic af, but tonraq has the physicals, better manoeuvres and more experience

@byondeon said:

@tektonic: Honestly, B1 Katara would win thanks to the Northern Water Tribe training.

While Pakku might not have fought to the best of his abilities, Katara still fought him and either stalemated him or beat him, can't remember, but that fight would alone put her above Tonraq. Not by much, as I don't think Pakku was fighting at 100%.

Tonraq showed a lot more skill than Katara, his moves are neither basic nor below her battle with Pakku who definitely didn't go all out.

Ice bridges + Prison
Ice bridges + Prison
Water Arms
Water Arms
Localized freezing which is very good precision
Localized freezing which is very good precision
Arm himself with weapons
Arm himself with weapons

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chloros

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@tektonic: @byondeon:

Pakku may not have been going all out, but his intent was to embarrass and discourage her as his views on women learning how to fight was a sign of disrespect not only to him, but his culture. Earlier, he out right banned Aang from secretly training Katara;

Aang: I... I was just showing Katara a few moves.

Master Pakku: You have disrespected me, my teachings, and my entire culture.

Aang: I'm sorry, I –

Master Pakku: You are no longer welcome as my student.

And during the duel he openly mocks her;

Master Pakku (turning to face her): Fine. You want to learn to fight so bad, study closely!

Master Pakku (mockingly): Don't worry, I'm not going to hurt you!

But let's take a closer look at that fight, as Katara displays she is well within her capabilities to win here;

overpowers his whirlpool prison
overpowers his whirlpool prison

Rippling ice wave
Rippling ice wave
Evaporates his ice wall and throws in some quick jabs
Evaporates his ice wall and throws in some quick jabs
Bypasses his ice wall, flips in the air and sticks the landing.
Bypasses his ice wall, flips in the air and sticks the landing.
Ice locks her feet and completely evaporates his attack
Ice locks her feet and completely evaporates his attack
No Caption Provided
Collapses large pillars of snow over him
Collapses large pillars of snow over him
Fires a fury of ice sheets, one that nearly slices his face
Fires a fury of ice sheets, one that nearly slices his face
No Caption Provided
  • The last one however narrowly passes to the left side of his face. The frame rates slows down noticeable with a sound effect for further accent. Pakku can see his own reflection in the passing sheet of ice – it is both surprised and dismayed.
  • Master Pakku: Well, I'm impressed. You are an excellent waterbender.

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Aystarr

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@chloros: Thanks, I forgot how good she did in that battle

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Aystarr

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@tektonic: look at how small she is compared to the iceberg, the visible part alone is like 50 times her size in that Frame, let's not forget it still has a mass under the water much larger than the one on the surface,thats how most icebergs work, that was the point of that gif I showed you, even if it's "small" I'm quite sure it's more than anything tonraq ever did, tonraq biggest power feat was the ice prison which does not fair in comparison.

Tonraq only other skill is the water arm which he's not even the best at, all his moves literally has to do with freezing water, he lacks creativity and versatility. His moves might even be useless against katara as she can state change any ice attack he throws or uses against her and redirect any water attack he uses, if she can do those things to pakku, a white lotus master, she can definitely do that to tonraq, @chloros: just showed that her fight with pakku alone proves she's has more variety of attacks, be it short, medium or long range attacks.

Like i said before, her inability to control the water was a skill problem, skill is how well you can manipulate something to your command, which she was trying to do as it showed that she hit sokka while she was trying to move it to the other direction, she had no problem carrying the water, it was only when she was moving it she had difficulties.

I cant say who will win, I had only stated their advantages, and I'm sure that katara has the power and skill advantage.

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Tektonic

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@aystarr said:

@tektonic: look at how small she is compared to the iceberg, the visible part alone is like 50 times her size in that Frame, let's not forget it still has a mass under the water much larger than the one on the surface,thats how most icebergs work, that was the point of that gif I showed you, even if it's "small" I'm quite sure it's more than anything tonraq ever did, tonraq biggest power feat was the ice prison which does not fair in comparison.

Again, this doesn't correlate to her fights at all, she struggled doing or going up against far less.

Tonraq could overpower Desna and Eska who would stomp B1 Katara, and helped flood a valley.

Tonraq only other skill is the water arm which he's not even the best at, all his moves literally has to do with freezing water, he lacks creativity and versatility. His moves might even be useless against katara as she can state change any ice attack he throws or uses against her and redirect any water attack he uses, if she can do those things to pakku, a white lotus master, she can definitely do that to tonraq, @chloros: just showed that her fight with pakku alone proves she's has more variety of attacks, be it short, medium or long range attacks.

While the gifs show Katara is a powerful waterbender, it only really proves how ill equipped Katara is to actually beat Tonraq.

-Katara doing basic redirection

Compared to Unalaq redirecting Tonraq's attack as a ice pillar, that's was still flexible like water, she doesn't come close to redirection of this level across 3 seasons let alone the first, even against Hama she just tossed the water back and forth while adding some more
Compared to Unalaq redirecting Tonraq's attack as a ice pillar, that's was still flexible like water, she doesn't come close to redirection of this level across 3 seasons let alone the first, even against Hama she just tossed the water back and forth while adding some more
Along with the redirection, Tonraq avoided and blocked to other large attacks, there is absolutely no way Katara's redirection will be of any use against him
Along with the redirection, Tonraq avoided and blocked to other large attacks, there is absolutely no way Katara's redirection will be of any use against him

-Katara Breaking down Pakku's water blasts or ice defenses

-Katara doing a back flip

This is especially bad for her, Tonraq way outperformed her in these areas in a span of a few seconds

He breaks down or dodges 8 attacks in 5 seconds, he's assaulted in every direction and isn't tagged at all, many of the attacks come from the ground no less, comparing that to Katara who keeps up with a tiny attack rate, and is sent flying in the air by ONE environmental attack that wasn't meant to hurt her proves Tonraq is far more capable a combatant especially when he uses those types of attacks every fight, he can easily defeat her
He breaks down or dodges 8 attacks in 5 seconds, he's assaulted in every direction and isn't tagged at all, many of the attacks come from the ground no less, comparing that to Katara who keeps up with a tiny attack rate, and is sent flying in the air by ONE environmental attack that wasn't meant to hurt her proves Tonraq is far more capable a combatant especially when he uses those types of attacks every fight, he can easily defeat her

-Katara using an ice wave and discs

Once again this only proves Tonraq's superiority, as he can use far larger ice waves, strategically as a divider, and can use ice constructs strong enough to overpower Desna and Eska's defenses
Once again this only proves Tonraq's superiority, as he can use far larger ice waves, strategically as a divider, and can use ice constructs strong enough to overpower Desna and Eska's defenses

As Chloros's gifs proved using various ice attacks is a sign of powerful waterbending, and he did so against a former Red Lotus master who is far more powerful than Pakku.

Like i said before, her inability to control the water was a skill problem, skill is how well you can manipulate something to your command, which she was trying to do as it showed that she hit sokka while she was trying to move it to the other direction, she had no problem carrying the water, it was only when she was moving it she had difficulties.

If she struggles with such basic skills in a fight, such as moving large amounts of water, or dealing with rapid fire from Zuko, Tonraq would pummel her with a barrage of ice attacks,

I cant say who will win, I had only stated their advantages, and I'm sure that katara has the power and skill advantage.

She doesn't have either, him using localized freezing like Ming Hua and Korra proves he has better control.

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Aystarr

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#33  Edited By Aystarr

@tektonic: okay, I'll tackle your points respective of how you made them because there is just so much I-

- like I said before her struggle was more of skill than power, you said she struggled against less but that is countered by the fact that she trained and could do it later on in the end of BOOK 1, I didn't say mid book 1. That's the thing about b1 katara, you can't use her bad showing as a valid point when you know she was untrained at that point and learned it later in that same book.

- As for tonraq overpowering the twins, if you're talking about scale, he literally just created a wall between them, he didn't outscale them or anything, if you're talking about force/potency, katara isn't E & D,and she has her own potency feats as her little water waves(not even ice which is stronger and what tonraq used against E-D) were no selling Zuko (a more powerful bender than E or D) fireblasts, her untrained water whip hurt so hard it sent that ant creature in the great divide running away.

- I used kataras redirection as a defense feat not an offensive one in my statement, read it again, your unalaq feat isnt useful here as it doesn't oppose the point of her being able to redirect it if he sends it her way.its doesn't mean she sends it back as an offense, just a way to get through it.

- like I said before I wasn't saying katara was going to win, if I was, I would've said my vote in the op, I was acknowledging her superior power and skill,that was the premise of our "argument"(lol), I know tonraq has the physicals in his favor so him outperforming her in that area has nothing to do with it.Even if he is a better combatant(which I don't dig),that doesn't mean he has more power or skill.

- Did you just say tonraqs ice wall against E-D is larger than kataras?, ROFL, I'm starting to think you're trolling because of that statement, Even kataras NON-COMBAT! feat against that guy during training is larger than tonraqs ice wall,look at @chloros: gif again, it scales above that pillar behind it considerably, the same pillar that is the same height as the wall of the palace in which the stairways is between, tonraqs ice wall was just one or two feets above beside them.

- "rapid fire from zuko" is more than tonraq's whole life as a bender, but seriously, it's far more powerful than any ice barrage tonraq ever showed. Localized freezing is literally nothing as just about almost every waterbender In the avatarverse has done that, tonraq lacks the versatility,construct creativity,move switch and attack/defense chain that even b1 only katara has shown, all of which are the basis of skill.

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Tektonic

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#34  Edited By Tektonic
@aystarr said:

@tektonic: okay, I'll tackle your points respective of how you made them because there is just so much I-

- like I said before her struggle was more of skill than power, you said she struggled against less but that is countered by the fact that she trained and could do it later on in the end of BOOK 1, I didn't say mid book 1. That's the thing about b1 katara, you can't use her bad showing as a valid point when you know she was untrained at that point and learned it later in that same book.

She didn't do anything at the end of the book close to what she needs, she that behind, we literally see her get assistance from Aang to stop a wave of water in the foggy swamp. Yes her abilities kept increasing substantially but at the end of B1 she had not beaten or performed anything that would take down Tonraq.

- As for tonraq overpowering the twins, if you're talking about scale, he literally just created a wall between them, he didn't outscale them or anything, if you're talking about force/potency, katara isn't E & D,and she has her own potency feats as her little water waves(not even ice which is stronger and what tonraq used against E-D) were no selling Zuko (a more powerful bender than E or D) fireblasts, her untrained water whip hurt so hard it sent that ant creature in the great divide running away.

B1 Zuko's attacks very weak they are just standard fireballs with little force behind them, completely nothing compared to Desna and Eska, who could shatter metal boats, planes, lift icebergs, throw icebergs etc. And Tonraq easily broke their shields.

- I used kataras redirection as a defense feat not an offensive one in my statement, read it again, your unalaq feat isnt useful here as it doesn't oppose the point of her being able to redirect it if he sends it her way.its doesn't mean she sends it back as an offense, just a way to get through it.

It doesn't even work as a defensive feat, it has nothing to do with stopping a barrage of ice attacks, hurled at her with tremendous force. And yes absolutely not a valid offensive feat.

Both her evaporation and redirection feat are useless against stronger attacks, like when Pakku washed her away with a large wave right after both those moves.

Feat

No Caption Provided

- like I said before I wasn't saying katara was going to win, if I was, I would've said my vote in the op, I was acknowledging her superior power and skill,that was the premise of our "argument"(lol),

She doesn't have those.

I know tonraq has the physicals in his favor so him outperforming her in that area has nothing to do with it.Even if he is a better combatant(which I don't dig),that doesn't mean he has more power or skill.

It's not even close though, he proved to be several times faster than her, and could basically take her down with a decent environmental ice pillar to the face as she proved she could not react to it against Pakku, even water blasts at surprise angles nailed her.

Two examples

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

- Did you just say tonraqs ice wall against E-D is larger than kataras?, ROFL, I'm starting to think you're trolling because of that statement, Even kataras NON-COMBAT! feat against that guy during training is larger than tonraqs ice wall,look at @chloros: gif again, it scales above that pillar behind it considerably, the same pillar that is the same height as the wall of the palace in which the stairways is between, tonraqs ice wall was just one or two feets above beside them.

Uh no here's the freeze frama

Look

Wasn't even taller than Pakku
Wasn't even taller than Pakku

- "rapid fire from zuko" is more than tonraq's whole life as a bender, but seriously, it's far more powerful than any ice barrage tonraq ever showed.

It isn't, basic fireballs versus an assortment of ice constructs in different shapes and sizes coming at you with a lot more force.

Localized freezing is literally nothing as just about almost every waterbender In the avatarverse has done that, tonraq lacks the versatility,construct creativity,move switch and attack/defense chain that even b1 only katara has shown, all of which are the basis of skill.

Localized Freezing is maintaining a part of the water you are bending as frozen while the rest is still water, still connected. Only Ming Hua(best practitioner), Korra, Unalaq, and Tonraq showed this, and maybe Katara in the later seasons.

In fact in the artbook for season 3, the writers said they had Ming Hua use that skill to showcase the difference in ability between her and Katara's usage of water arms.

As seen here

No Caption Provided

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@tektonic: I wasn't talking about the one against pakku,i was talking about the one she used against that north pole guy after she was trained a bit

-No,she did not need aang to stop the water, he just happened to be there, and if she did need aang, it doesn't change the fact that she has larger ice walls, you have not shown me any ice wall from tonraq larger than the one she used to freeze her training mate, I showed you how large it was.

- yeah b1 Zuko attacks are very weak, I mean, it's not like it broke through a ball of ice in the north pole without the aid of the sun. Oh wait, it did, tonraqs ice construct hasn't done anything out of the ordinary .

- ONCE AGAIN!!!, I AM NOT SAYING ANYONE'S GONNA WIN, STOP USING TONRAQS PHYSICALS, AND THE BETTER COMBATANT(which like I said before, I don't dig) STUFF AS A POINT. ITS IRRELEVANT.

- youre saying she can't use the redirection as a defense when she literally used it to slap the water away from her when pakku surrounded her with it. The GIFs are above you, pls check them before making baseless claims. Not only can she use it, she has shown it already. IF anything, she's not able to stop a barrage of ice attacks (keyword IF), it MIGHT be because she's not fast enough, it's not because shes not skilled enough, she has converted a stronger waterbender ice shield before, shes not going to be outskilled by weaker bender.

- I still don't understand how localized freezing is a skill considerable enough to put him above her in that department, OK yeah, let's say it's a good skill, how does that aid he absolute utter lack of skill, yay! One more ability added to his incompetent showcase of skill, he was done in that department before katara even trained, his 3- 4 season of skill he displayed has already been outmatched by b1 katara. If you cant provide a better power feat than the ones katara used to freeze zuko the second time and the training mate.and she better display of skill than the one against pakku, I would say katara is still the superior in power and skill

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#38  Edited By Aystarr

@chloros: Thanks, I was hoping you would back me up tho, lol

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@aystarr said:

@tektonic: I wasn't talking about the one against pakku,i was talking about the one she used against that north pole guy after she was trained a bit

-No,she did not need aang to stop the water, he just happened to be there, and if she did need aang, it doesn't change the fact that she has larger ice walls, you have not shown me any ice wall from tonraq larger than the one she used to freeze her training mate, I showed you how large it was.

No Caption Provided

You mean this thing? It's only twice the size of Pakku in height.

Any one of the numerous Ice Walls Tonraq spammed against the Rebel Spirit were larger
Any one of the numerous Ice Walls Tonraq spammed against the Rebel Spirit were larger
Even from afar you can see how his ice wave is very long and high easily surpassing what she did to Zuko
Even from afar you can see how his ice wave is very long and high easily surpassing what she did to Zuko

And no if she is struggling with a random waterbender in the swamp than no she cannot beat the former General of the Northern Water Tribe Army, and The Current Chief of the Southern Water Tribe.

- yeah b1 Zuko attacks are very weak, I mean, it's not like it broke through a ball of ice in the north pole without the aid of the sun. Oh wait, it did, tonraqs ice construct hasn't done anything out of the ordinary .

He broke the ice prison with a charged explosion, Katara was just attacked with fireballs.

No Caption Provided
She struggled with fireballs, which allowed him to bypass her and almost reach Aang
She struggled with fireballs, which allowed him to bypass her and almost reach Aang

- ONCE AGAIN!!!, I AM NOT SAYING ANYONE'S GONNA WIN, STOP USING TONRAQS PHYSICALS, AND THE BETTER COMBATANT(which like I said before, I don't dig) STUFF AS A POINT. ITS IRRELEVANT.

Calm Down. I didn't say you said that, but the point still stands, she simply cannot beat someone who is such a better fighter than her.

- youre saying she can't use the redirection as a defense when she literally used it to slap the water away from her when pakku surrounded her with it. The GIFs are above you, pls check them before making baseless claims. Not only can she use it, she has shown it already. IF anything, she's not able to stop a barrage of ice attacks (keyword IF), it MIGHT be because she's not fast enough, it's not because shes not skilled enough, she has converted a stronger waterbender ice shield before, shes not going to be outskilled by weaker bender.

She is literally mopped aside by a faster and larger attack, she can only redirect or dissipate what she is fast enough and strong enough to react to or stop it.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

- I still don't understand how localized freezing is a skill considerable enough to put him above her in that department, OK yeah, let's say it's a good skill, how does that aid he absolute utter lack of skill, yay! One more ability added to his incompetent showcase of skill, he was done in that department before katara even trained, his 3- 4 season of skill he displayed has already been outmatched by b1 katara. If you cant provide a better power feat than the ones katara used to freeze zuko the second time and the training mate.and she better display of skill than the one against pakku, I would say katara is still the superior in power and skill

The artbook speaks for itself and it referred to EOS Katara, and I've already showcased Tonraq's skill. He has larger scale, attacks from all directions, uses advanced techniques, has a harsh attack rate, and is a superior combatant agianst superior opponents.

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@tektonic: You keep providing statements from the writers and stretching them out to legitimise your personal interpretation of the ranking system.

Nowhere in that scan does it remotely imply Ming Hua's use of localised flash freezing is what makes her use of the water arms more refined than Katara's. There's a starting paragraph mentioning that Ming Hua has allowed them to explore the technique much further and an entirely different note listing a handful of Ming Hua's abilities.

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@tektonic: You keep providing statements from the writers and stretching them out to legitimise your personal interpretation of the ranking system.

Uh no I'm just clarifying them.

Nowhere in that scan does it remotely imply Ming Hua's use of localised flash freezing is what makes her use of the water arms more refined than Katara's. There's a starting paragraph mentioning that Ming Hua has allowed them to explore the technique much further and an entirely different note listing a handful of Ming Hua's abilities.

Exploring a technique further means she by definition is showing more mastery of a technique via the "exploartion" of the technique through her performance.

That "handful" of abilities is localized freezing, where she only alters the ends of her arms into an assortment of objects while leaving it attached to the rest of her water arm.

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@tektonic:

Exploring a technique further means she by definition is showing more mastery of a technique via the "exploartion" of the technique through her performance.

I don't care what this lone statement in the beginning of the scan means in its own context. I might agree it means they intented for Ming Hua to have mastered the technique to a higher degree. But you mixed it up with a completely different note in the scan and made your own conclusions, which is what I'm having issues with.

That "handful" of abilities is localized freezing, where she only alters the ends of her arms into an assortment of objects while leaving it attached to the rest of her water arm.

Yes, it is an ability Katara has showcased on more than occasion, further proof that you are reaching by saying that 'localised freezing' is the reason Ming Hua has a more refined technique.

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@tektonic:

I don't care what this lone statement in the beginning of the scan means in its own context. I might agree it means they intented for Ming Hua to have mastered the technique to a higher degree.

Of course that's what it means, switch Katara's name for Tonraq and there would be no one arguing otherwise, it's extremely clear, Ming Hua is showing more mastery of the technique than Katara.

But you mixed it up with a completely different note in the scan and made your own conclusions, which is what I'm having issues with.

Note 1 is about her water arms being superior to Katara, and note 2 explores what she does with water arms that impresses them, the latter is literal examples.

Yes, it is an ability Katara has showcased on more than occasion, further proof that you are reaching by saying that 'localised freezing' is the reason Ming Hua has a more refined technique.

I've already said that Katara has done it at some point, she simply isn't on Ming Hua's level at all who can shape it however she likes without adding any stress to the rest of her arm, and was absolutely not capable of such in S1.

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@tektonic:

Note 1 is about her water arms being superior to Katara, and note 2 explores what she does with water arms that impresses them, the latter is literal examples.

No it does not go like this. Note 1 is a general opening statement on Ming Hua as a bender and the later text is a sidenote on the artbook's pictures. They are completely different and you are mixing them up to suggest that 'localised freezing' is some absurd technique and evidence of Tonraq being more skilled than Katara.

If they really thought 'localised freezing' is what makes Ming Hua more efficient than Katara, they would not have shown Katara using this technique numbers of times before. Therefore, this statement does not suggest the technique is anything special, and therefore, it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

I've already said that Katara has done it at some point, she simply isn't on Ming Hua's level at all who can shape it however she likes without adding any stress to the rest of her arm, and was absolutely not capable of such in S1.

And what exactly does this have to do with Tonraq fighting Katara? I can list a number of techniques Katara performed throughout Book 1 that Tonraq cannot use and act like they are the end of it all in terms of waterbending.

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@tektonic:

No it does not go like this. Note 1 is a general opening statement on Ming Hua as a bender and the later text is a sidenote on the artbook's pictures. They are completely different and you are mixing them up to suggest that 'localised freezing' is some absurd technique and evidence of Tonraq being more skilled than Katara.

Both notes are emphasizing her mastery of water arms, it's not like Katara does it nearly as efficiently as Ming Hua, it's one of Ming's signatures so the point is fairly obvious.

If they really thought 'localised freezing' is what makes Ming Hua more efficient than Katara, they would not have shown Katara using this technique numbers of times before. Therefore, this statement does not suggest the technique is anything special, and therefore, it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

It's simply very plain, the things Ming does with her water arms is more advanced than what Katara does, feel free to post otherwise.

Tonraq performing a similar technique that B1 Katara can't is just another point for him, and a rebuke of the idea he doesn't show precision, which is what I framed it as when I first brought it up, not the sole decider to clinch the win here, as seen in post 28.

"Localized freezing which is very good precision" Aystar elongated that discussion.

And what exactly does this have to do with Tonraq fighting Katara? I can list a number of techniques Katara performed throughout Book 1 that Tonraq cannot use and act like they are the end of it all in terms of waterbending.

Katara has already proven she is simply incapable of beating Tonraq is book 1 but feel free to list things that are useless against him, she lost to Pakku, and would have lost to Zuko if he didn't choose to attack Aang when he had her overwhelmed. Her fighting capacity just isn't there, it's a relatively easy win for Tonraq.

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#46  Edited By ANTHP2000

@tektonic:

You keep saying 'Katara just isn't as good as Ming Hua at this', a point, again, entirely irrelevant. At this rate it's justified of me to assume that you only brought this up to throw in the superiority of a LoK bender over a TLA bender. Everything else simply does not make sense.

Katara has already proven she is simply incapable of beating Tonraq is book 1 but feel free to list things that are useless against him, she lost to Pakku, and would have lost to Zuko if he didn't choose to attack Aang when he had her overwhelmed. Her fighting capacity just isn't there, it's a relatively easy win for Tonraq.

That is a very nice opinion of yours, different from mine. I did not come here to debate for Katara, I came here to clear up your "misclarification" of a scan. Again, I'm not even sure why you brought this scan up in a discussion like this in the first place, but I just did not want to let it fly.

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@tektonic:

You keep saying 'Katara just isn't as good as Ming Hua at this', a point, again, entirely irrelevant.

Let's meet halfway here.

I'll concede that localized freezing alone does not put Ming>Katara. You can have that.

Ming's usage of this technique on her level though does which is where the statement comes from. I'd imagine you agree that she has the best water arm usage of anyone. And in regards to Tonraq him being able to perform something similar is just something in his favor not a deciding factor, it's just great precision for him comparatively.

At this rate it's justified of me to assume that you only brought this up to throw in the superiority of a LoK bender over a TLA bender. Everything else simply does not make sense.

You already know I do support LOK all the time. But the scan does refer to just water arms, you've seen me favor Katara over Ming overall due to abundance of feats.

That is a very nice opinion of yours, different from mine. I did not come here to debate for Katara, I came here to clear up your "misclarification" of a scan.

That's up to you.

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@tektonic:

Ming's usage of this technique on her level though does which is where the statement comes from. I'd imagine you agree that she has the best water arm usage of anyone. And in regards to Tonraq him being able to perform something similar is just something in his favor not a deciding factor, it's just great precision for him comparatively.

So basically you are saying that Tonraq being able to do this is something Katara did not showcase in Book 1 and it's impressive. Sure, there's simply no point in bringing up Ming Hua and comparing them, that is nothing but extra, if not misleading.

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@tektonic:

So basically you are saying that Tonraq being able to do this is something Katara did not showcase in Book 1 and it's impressive. Sure, there's simply no point in bringing up Ming Hua and comparing them, that is nothing but extra, if not misleading.

It is impressive regardless of the scan and above B1 Katara, Ming Hua just proves pushing the technique further is something EOS Katara couldn't do, and Tonraq could at least compare in some aspects.

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@tektonic said:

It is impressive regardless of the scan and above B1 Katara, Ming Hua just proves pushing the technique further is something EOS Katara couldn't do, and Tonraq could at least compare in some aspects.

For Christ's sake my friend. Katara by EoS has done everything Tonraq has and more: this is the end of the story. Bringing up Ming Hua does not make Tonraq freezing the tip of his water arms any more impressive.