Katakuri vs Marco the Phoenix

Stalemate for now. Need more feats from Marco.

Bump

Marco via hype and in-verse logic. Saying Kata>Marco would imply that Luffy>Marco since they are more or less equals.

Marco stomps. Katakuri isn't intercepting Kizaru's lasers or clashing with Big Mom or blocking an attack from Akainu

Marco should beat Katakuri here

Luffy getting blitzed and one-shot after the Katakuri fight does not bode well for Katakuri. Marco could fight Kizaru and was considered a yonko candidate so his portrayal is not such that he would be dominated that drastically by a yonko, which is what we see with Big Mom, yes she has a clear upper hand, but Marco can do a bit against her and would take her some time, it's not a teleports-behind-you-your-KO-situation.

The best thing for Kata is Jozu getting manhandled by Doflamingo, but honestly that seems a bit like war-weirdness, which there is quite a lot of. (Luffy blocking Snegoku, drawing blood from Garp, Jinbei being able to somewhat stall Akainu and more, Akainu being surprised that Marco and Vista use haki lol) Him being considered undefeated is still impressive though given how yonko and other strong forces naturally fight over the years.

In general even though some lines of scaling suggest otherwise I think Oda intends the yonko first mates to be somewhat comparable, similar to the yonko who are also relative to each other, I doubt they would stomp each other. I think first mates are intended to be somewhat relevant factors in fights against yonko, but not strong enough to have a chance of winning against them, but Kata getting dealt with first does sorta powercreep him towards the bottom, he likely has better haki, but worse physicals and probably worse fruit.

Marco's performance against Admirals and Big Mom should put him above Katakuri.

@rhoynedelta: akanui wasn’t surprised he was annoyed

@edgelord91: does not really change much, it's just as weird for him to take notice of it and spell it out, it should be a unquestioned given with those fighters

Katakuri might fail to break Marco's regen powers so Marco will keep regen until Katakuri is out in that case.

Katakuri isn't strong enough to break Marco's regen.

Marco made his Mom runaway. He stomps even with MF feats

After chapter 1006 this isn't even a debate anymore Marco would stomp Katakuri hard.

Throw in the rest of the big mom commanders, and then it might be a fight. The only right hand that's clearly stronger is rayleigh, although I wouldn't be surprised if Ben Beckman is on par with Marco.

Marco was bodying 2 Yonko Commanders. Katakuri gets destroyed

Marco wasn’t bodying anything in 1006 however being able to hold off/ look superior to a Yonko First Mate and second Commander at the same time, is a level of ability far too much for Katakuri to handle. Both King and Queen have higher bounties than Katakuri with higher bounties these days relating more to strength and power than ever before.

Marco, he was on par with pre skip Admirals excluding Akainu, and currently he is blitzing 2 Yonko Commanders

Marco stomps

This I wouldn't be surprised if Queen and King were both stronger than Kata

I mean...King and Queen don't have any comparable combat feats or showings to Katakuri even though their bounties are higher.

And people with weaker combat skills have had higher bounties in past.

Marco has a lot of hype around him and has some what tangled with Admirals, so I'll just say him, high dif for now.

I disagree. If Katakuri remains calm he can allow King and Queen's attacks to pass through his body which would allow him to fight both at the same time. I think its possible that King and Queen might be more powerful overall but what good are their moves if they don't land?

Katakuri demonstrated the ability to no-diff ichiji in the raid suit while Sanji completely shrugged off King's direct dive bomb. I have zero reason to think Sanji's raid suit is more durable. Its also likely not sanji's haki protecting him because Sanji always compliments the suit after being rag-dolled. I think the gap between Katakuri and King are not wide at all.

King and Queen are honestly looking pretty bad right now as in not very skilled or smart. they seem to used to using straight up brute force when they fight. Luffy tried a similar thing with boundman on Kuri and it wasnt the best strategy.

I think Katakuri has shown the skill, Haki and DF versatility to match Marco's passive invulnerability.

Marco has better feats than this glass

@socajunkie:

WCI Luffy was dodging and avoiding Katakuri which stressed the latter out by his own admission: that was a factor which led to him losing his cool, thereby preventing him from using Future Sight and enabling Luffy to tag him. Fighting two Commanders is far likelier to achieve a similar or greater effect- double the factors and these two are individually far more powerful than Luffy in that stage of the fight.

I agree with you in that King and Queen are likely stronger physically than Katakuri. But I just don't see them being as fast as WCI Luffy. Let me explain. Now, it may seem possible that its going to be harder to maintain calm with two commanders vs 1 Luffy but honestly with the offense im seeing from the two of them, I don't know about that. I think its harder to dodge all of Luffy's Gum-Gum hawk Gatling / Kong Organ than it is to dodge haymakers from King and Queen simply because its a barrage of attacks.

He'll do a fine job dodging for a short period, then he'll slip up and get bodied. Future Sight is a big advantage but it's not an insta-win especially when it hasn't been shown simultaneously against two characters on a similar or greater level than Katakuri.

Definitely not an instant win, I just think King and Queen are just not skilled enough to frustrate Katrkuri as easily as Luffy. No named attacks, no techniques against Marco just diving head first and hoping to get lucky. Luffy had to comprehend the situation before beginning to completely turn the tables. Kuri no diff'ed Luffy and started eating donuts.

Firstly, Sanji himself is physically superior to his family which contributes him tanking King's attack (he mentions the suit specifically but the suit mitigates some damage, it doesn't neg it all, so the user's own durability is a factor). Secondly, Katakuri clapped Ichiji off-panel in the time it took the Tamatebako Box to hit the ground- on the next page we just see Kata holding him by the throat. We don't know how did it, could have been in one-shot, could have been a barrage. It's an unknown unknown so comparing the situation to King and Sanji doesn't work for me even if it's implied he just grabbed him, it's on the ambiguous side. Even so, the gap doesn't have to be wide or even exist-if we go with them being on the same level then Katakuri is still fighting two peers.

I think Sanji is superior too. But my point is that the gap is not wide enough for King to be out of Katkuri's league based on what we've seen, Its true that the specific details are unknown but I think its clearly implied that Katakuri beat down someone in a raid suit handily. King put some effort into his attack and Sanji was unharmed. Not saying this puts Katakuri over King in power, i am mentioning this to say that Katakuri could be just as strong. The implication is there.

Luffy was one guy who was weaker than these two at that point. Can't compare how Katakuri does against him to make an argument for him taking on King and Queen at the same time. From what is shown so far, their battle intelligence isn't high tier-both have shown better strategically out of battle-but it doesn't have to be since King was competent enough to attack Marco while he was distracted by Queen.

King and Queen are very powerful. King through name and postiion mostly. I honestly think Queen's brachio bomber is very underrated for what he did to O-Lin. If he were to hit Katakuri with it, it would probably one shot kill him to be honest. I think it just boils down to them being a bad match up for Katakuri who is just better at beating people who just rush in and attack with no real consideration.

So what does he do to get past said passive invulnerability? Marco is strong/durable enough to halt Akainu so Katakuri will have a tough him getting past Marco's durability, let alone when it's supplemented by Phoenix flame regen. Katakuri's FS effectiveness is dependent on him staying calm and given Marco is a far better opponent than WCI Luffy, who caused Dogtooth to slip, it's clear Katakuri will be taking more damage than Marco.

Marco's attacks don't seem to be doing very much damage unfortunately. King and Queen seem more annoyed than harmed. Makes you wonder how strong Marco really is. Sure, his DF is insanely overpowered for however long it lasts. Based on what the samurai said, Marco's DF may be draining his stamina rapidly. Also, can he actually hit as hard as gear 4 Luffy? Honestly, we don't know. Gear 4 Luffy was sending everything and everyone who was commander level flying with it.

So with that in mind, logically this turns into a battle of attrition where Marco has a further edge in endurance considering he was part of a three day battle when he was a teenager. Far weaker and less experienced than he is now.

I mean, that did happen off panel. Buggy was there too which makes you wonder how difficult of a feat that really is at the end of the day.

Marco only wins due to his regen, stats wise Katakuri still better.

@enemybird:

I agree with you in that King and Queen are likely stronger physically than Katakuri. But I just don't see them being as fast as WCI Luffy. Let me explain. Now, it may seem possible that its going to be harder to maintain calm with two commanders vs 1 Luffy but honestly with the offense im seeing from the two of them, I don't know about that. I think its harder to dodge all of Luffy's Gum-Gum hawk Gatling / Kong Organ than it is to dodge haymakers from King and Queen simply because its a barrage of attacks.

That's fair enough and bare in mind neither of us have much to work with for King and Queen feat wise so this will likely turn into my speculation vs yours. With either King or Queen attacking Katakuri from the front, he'll be exposed from behind and above therefore having his attention split in a different way than taking a barrage from one direction.

Definitely not an instant win, I just think King and Queen are just not skilled enough to frustrate Katrkuri as easily as Luffy. No named attacks, no techniques against Marco just diving head first and hoping to get lucky. Luffy had to comprehend the situation before beginning to completely turn the tables. Kuri no diff'ed Luffy and started eating donuts.

At that point in WCI, Luffy should be far outclassed stats wise compared to King and Queen, from an in-universe perspective, Katakuri isn't written or implied to be capable of fighting evenly with two characters either equal or slightly ahead of him.

I think Sanji is superior too. But my point is that the gap is not wide enough for King to be out of Katkuri's league based on what we've seen, Its true that the specific details are unknown but I think its clearly implied that Katakuri beat down someone in a raid suit handily. King put some effort into his attack and Sanji was unharmed. Not saying this puts Katakuri over King in power, i am mentioning this to say that Katakuri could be just as strong. The implication is there.

At best you'll have Katakuri being as strong as King which doesn't account for how he'll be a physical match for King and Queen at the same time.

King and Queen are very powerful. King through name and postiion mostly. I honestly think Queen's brachio bomber is very underrated for what he did to O-Lin. If he were to hit Katakuri with it, it would probably one shot kill him to be honest. I think it just boils down to them being a bad match up for Katakuri who is just better at beating people who just rush in and attack with no real consideration.

All it would take is for King to keep Katakuri busy, get him to lose his cool so Queen can have an opening for BB. They aren't tactic beasts like Luffy or Law, but they're competent enough to accomplish what I've mentioned.

Of those you mentioned who rushed in and attacked with no consideration: Katakuri had a colossal stat advantage over them, here he doesn't have that luxury and these two should be able to tank just as much damage as he can on paper.

Marco's attacks don't seem to be doing very much damage unfortunately. King and Queen seem more annoyed than harmed. Makes you wonder how strong Marco really is. Sure, his DF is insanely overpowered for however long it lasts. Based on what the samurai said, Marco's DF may be draining his stamina rapidly. Also, can he actually hit as hard as gear 4 Luffy? Honestly, we don't know. Gear 4 Luffy was sending everything and everyone who was commander level flying with it.

If parity to Gear Fourth Luffy requires one to be able to send Commander level characters flying, then Marco fits that bill given he was ragdolling King and Queen...

Let's also not forget that Marco ragdolled an Admiral.

As far as damage dealt, it's clear he can harm people in his own tier, which is all he needs to win a battle of attrition. Marco's dialogue tells us that his stamina is draining more rapidly because he's fighting two Commanders with bounties well over a billion. Meaning he'd have a much easier time with just one of them (obviously) and here he's only fighting one, so his stamina and regen should see him win eventually.

I mean, that did happen off panel. Buggy was there too which makes you wonder how difficult of a feat that really is at the end of the day.

Roger and Whitebeard were there too, which makes you wonder just how impressive of a feat that really is at the end of the day.

In all seriousness, it's fair to assume they were mostly fighting enemies on their level or close to it. At least the named, relevant characters anyway. We're not given much information but in cases like this where stamina is well established in the verse, it makes sense to give the benefit of the doubt.

If Marco cant awaken future sight then Katakuri wins.

Katakuri's power is too damn broken compared to Marco. And there is a possibility that this guy can actually use advanced conqueror like luffy. You know, he's big mom's strongest son

Light speed or not, future sight can handle that. Especially katakuri's future sight is better than luffy's. And luffy can dodge kaido's raime hakke

He dont give a shit about his mouth anymore so nope no one ever make him lost his cool.

@aresduelist: isn't it the other way around? Marco's Fruit is too damn broken, even Big Mom admits of his strength, Kata's Fruit ain't that amazing, his specialty is CoO adv, but it can be overcome with faster movements and Wano/rooftop Snakeman Luffy >>> WCI Snakeman Luffy

Marco can't even beat Queen while Katakuri>Current Sanji who beat Queen. Marco had df advantage over BM. Without it he can't beat Queen.

Marco can't even beat Cracker. His kick only annoyed base Queen while pre exoskeleton Sanji made fullzoan Queen scream in agony. And we know Sanji ap<G3 which Biscuit Soldier shrugs off.

Marco's performance against BM only shows his df counters BM. Without it he can't beat Queen. Queen shrugged off his attack.

Marco's performance against admiral should put him below Katakuri tbh. All logia trio have FS they can shape shift their bodies to dodge CoA attack like katakuri did. Akainu casually dodged Marco and Vista attack. Marco won't even hit Katakuri.

Just like Daz Bones intercepted Mihawk's slash or Jozu intercepted Mihawk's slash? Marco was near WB what Marco did was moving in front of WB to tank Kizaru Yasakani no Magatama.

Marco df counters BM. Without it he can't beat Queen.

Marco needed 12 WBP commanders to fight injured Akainu. Katakuri overpowered G3 which bruised admiral Fujitora.

DR Luffy>>Queen. Just because Queen had trouble against pre exoskeleton Sanji who will get annihilated in an instant by DR Luffy that doesn't mean DR Luffy<Queen.

Marco never ragdolled any admiral. Pre TS Luffy sent Aokiji flying that doesn't mean Luffy in pre TS was admiral level.

Fighting Roger Pirates for 3 days don't mean much when the fight was not a fight to the death. Rakuyo a fodder survived fighting Roger Pirates that doesn't mean Rakuyo is YC1 level.

Katakuri has no trouble fighting multiple opponents at once. Katakuri is significantly faster than Marco who can't dodge BM chokehold. Katakuri danced around Snakeman while Kaido without FS and Snakeman boost was helpless against Snakeman. That Kaido fought BM for 3 days the same BM who blitzed Marco.

Katakuri also fought Jinbe, Pedro, Bege and Luffy at once and he gained the advantage. Pedro is faster than Queen. No rocket science since Carrot who is weaker dodged Zoro and managed to electrocute Zoro. Luffy, Jinbe and Bege combined are much faster than King. 4 of them can't hit Katakuri. Katakuri gained an upperhand pinning down Luffy.

@werkudara: when i said katakuri power is broken, i meant for both df and advanced CoO.

Rooftop luffy ofc was way stronger in firepower and endurance but i believe there's not much difference in terms of speed and CoO usage UNTIL he unlocked Gear 5th

No, faster movement doesnt help much against advanced CoO user unless the speed difference is massive. Kaido was the only person who can move faster than advanced CoO user so far. Marco was nowhere as fast as him.

Of course that's the fact BEFORE it was confirmed that Kaido was advanced CoO user as well soo..