@georgewbush: Couse they are not in the same weightclass,Kas'im is an awesome warrior who is on par with many SW characters but still weak compare to RoTJ vader,it just dont seem to be a fair fight.
Its like putting a panther against a lion,we all know how its gona end.
I have no problem ranking Vader > Bane, and Bane was beating the Sith out of Ka'sim until Ka'sim unleashed form VI on him. The only reason Bane couldn't defeat him is because Ka'sim purposely withheld teaching this method to Bane. I don't see Vader lacking any two handed skills, and I'm sure that he is stronger in the Force than Ka'sim. Of course, that is supposition on my part, but I'm pretty sure this has been discussed a few times on here. Plus we can fall back to the fact that Bane was able to defeat Ka'sim in the end only because of his strategic knowledge and use of the Force. Vader wouldn't shy away from resorting to similar tactics if he needed to, as evidenced in the first book of his current Marvel comic series.
This all said, I don't think it is a stomp, much less a curb-stomp.
Kas'im tbh. Vader has struggled against Jar Kai; note how quickly the clone of Maul beats him after the saber staff is cut. It's possible that Vader is strong enough to breach Kas'ims Force barrior; I'm not deniing Vaders more powerful that PoD Bane, but in a pure lightsaber duel, Kas'ims skill and agility should win the day. I know my opinion won't be popular on this site however. Where TOR Jedi/Sith are apparently << ROTE counterparts, despite the former constantly being in a state of war, always honing and refining their skills with experience, in contrast to ROTE only dealing with blaster wielders and the occasional renegade Jedi.
How the heck is Vader stomping someone considered by multiple people to be the greatest swordsman of his era? Because that makes sense?
And somehow I lack objectivity here? Does no one else see how absurd and illogical it is to assume that Vader is accomplishing anything even remotely near a stomp?
KF Vader has struggled against Serra Keto. Suit-Vader has lost to TPM Maul and has been hit by Roan Shryne. Suit-Vader has considered the Dark Woman a worthy opponent. And yet he is stomping a Sith Blademaster with the accolades of Kas'im. Yeah, no.. insult and mock me all you want, but I'm not buying that.
Yeah I agree. The quote "perhaps the greatest of all time" paraphrasing a bit, it probably hyperbole, but the former "greatest of his era" is objective. At the very least as good as one could get for that time period. Vader might be able to breach his Force shield, but in a pure duel he's outmatched, by Kas'ims superior skill, agility, and use of Jar Kai; Vader struggled against Jar Kai when the clone of Maul's saberstaff was cut.
In this game that contradicts canon left and right. In the game there is a protracted engagement between Vader and Drallig, whereas in the movie and novel Vader stomps him in three swings. In this game Anakin actually fights Mace Windu instead of cutting off his hands. In this game Vader kills Obi-Wan and then Sidious. It's absolutely non-canonical.
Suit-Vader has lost to TPM Maul
In the timeframe of A New Hope. He's noted to grow far more formidable from ANH to ESB, and then grow even more from ESB to RotJ, the latter being noted as his actual prime.
Anyway, Maul is a much better swordsman than Kas'im, so that hardly matters.
and has been hit by Roan Shryne.
When he was massively pre-prime.
Your attempts at lowballing Vader are amusing though.
Suit-Vader has considered the Dark Woman a worthy opponent.
Why do you insist on lowballing Vader's vastly pre-prime achievements?
And yet he is stomping a Sith Blademaster with the accolades of Kas'im
What accolades? Being the greatest swordsman in an "order" full of bang average Jedi Knight level chumps? Lol.
Vader is repeatedly touted as being the best of Sidious' apprentices and has been labeled as a threat by Palpatine himself. Yeah no, he one-shots PoD Bane's inferior.
Pah. The movie never shows Drallig being defeated by Anakin. It briefly shows Anakin holding off Drallig with his cybernetic hand. The novelization removes the concept of a fight altogether thus contradicting visual canon and leaving us with but one full account of the duel, which is in the ROTS VG.
In those specific instances, obvioisly it's not real. Just as with the novelizations, the video game has instances that are contradicted by canon and other info. In those instances alone, the contradicting info is to be discarded. Having a protracted engagement with the blasted Battlemaster of the Order is vastly more realistic than hacking him down effortlessly in the ROTS. Struggling with the Battlemaster's star pupil is not inconsistent with Anakin's portrayals, no more than Windu using all of his skill to best Ventress. Anakin is given difficulty by cunning duelists that are skilled.
Because unless you are implying Kas'sim is vastly below or equal to Roan Shryne, Serra Keto, and the Dark Woman, even ROTJ Vader is not stomping. That's laughable.
Nope. Being the best swordsman out of an order of Sith, being a Sith Blademaster, and being asserted to be the best duelist even of his era. The concept of any Sith being Jedi Knight-level or a chump is hilarious. Unless explicitly stated to be otherwise, Sith are nearly always above Jedi counterparts of their age/rank/amount of training, because of how much more power the Dark Side grants within a short amount of time in comparison to the Light Side, with few exceptions.
It is indeed a joke. Vader stomping Kas'im is the funniest thing I've heard all week. The thought process of Vader fanboys is truly a sight to behold.
I concur completely. His ranking as a Sith Blademaster in my opinion already marks him as a premier duelist of his time, which alone should mean he'd give Vader difficulty. His additional accolades though, being regarded by the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith as the most skilled swordsman in his camp, which would include himself, as well as being regarded by Bane, who at that point I believe was already ragdolling the best Sith of the time, as the greatest swordsman of his era and possibly even ever, the latter of which more than likely being hyperbole as you said, have convinced me of his ability to outmatch Vader in physical combat, especially given Vader's difficulty at handling acrobatic opponents and Jar'Kai practitioners, even in cases wherein he was solidly above them overall.
Round 1: Vader wins, though not in a stomp. It's ridiculous how much the older eras get lowballed here even when they're considered to be the greatest swordsman of their era. Anyone with that reputation isn't getting stomped in saber combat. At all. Ironically, with someone like Plageuis I've seen arguments that he beats the likes of Mace in saber combat, which is pretty laughable.
Vader and it's not close. Kas'im is a technical master of each of the Forms who instructs students on them. His hype comes largely from Bane himself, who has next to no experience as a Sith himself and barely knows any of the living Sith save those at his academy. Kas'im being hero worshipped by trainee Bane isn't much to go on, particularly as Kas'im only began to outduel the near weakest incarnation of Bane through sabotage of his training. Before that, he was losing at his own game. And again, his only feats are beating his own master who is featless and losing to his own student despite stacking the deck in his own favor.
Which also begs the question of how many of then living Sith did he instruct anyway with war attrition? If he instructed most of them, then of course he's highly regarded, because he sabotages their training. Hell, if they encountered any Jedi who use Jar'Kei, they'd have been doomed too.
Kas'im is essentially Cin Drallig. And dies to Vader as easily as he did.
Kasim being a master in a time of child soldiers and scrapping the bottom of the barrel is not a good mark for him. All his fights are on nexus' and he's just flat inferior to even PoD Bane.
I mean let's look at the "peerless duelist" Ma'kis'shaalas
Ma'kis'shaalas was Jedi Master known in the Order for his combat skill in the Golden Age of the Jedi, and was considered as one of the best Morgukai warriors:
It is for Ma'kis'shaalas's uncanny ability to make immediate and, invariably, correct - decisions and his skill in combat that the Nikto Jedi is best known.
-- Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds
Ma'kis'shaalas is Morgukai-one of the greatest, in fact, and one who committed an unspeakable crime against his former brotherhood.
-- Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds
Ma'kis'shaalas: A Morgukai warrior and Nikto Jedi Master, he survived Order 66. Master Ma'kis'shaalas was known as a fanatical adherent to the Jedi Order, and a fierce combatant. He agreed to meet Master Shadday Potkin on Kessel as part of a plot to ensnare Darth Vader. Vader cut Ma'kis'shaalas down in combat.
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Morgukai in general are considered as "elite Jedi-killing warriors" and "peerless duelists":
The red-skinned Kajain'sa'Nikto subspecies famously produced one of the most elite warrior traditions in the galaxy: the "Jedi-killing" cult of the Morgukai. These peerless duelists are among the only non-Force users to repeatedly defeat both Jedi and Sith in melee combat. Fortunately for their opponents, the Morgukai's numbers remain few, but their battle tactics are closely guarded secrets.
-- Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
Beyond their incredible abilities in combat, however, the philosophical teachings of the Morgukai cult are a mystery–they do not speak of their beliefs to outsiders, even under threat of death.
I mean this guy is the best of a line of elite duellists. So I'm sure Vader will struggle-
Oh wait Vader stomped him in one move despite only just getting his suit and still recovering from Mustafar.
This is exactly how a fight between Vader and Kasim would go.
If he instructed most of them, then of course he's highly regarded, because he sabotages their training. Hell, if they encountered any Jedi who use Jar'Kei, they'd have been doomed too.
If he instructed most of them, then of course he's highly regarded, because he sabotages their training. Hell, if they encountered any Jedi who use Jar'Kei, they'd have been doomed too.
@kilius: @greysentinel365: Lol that's a good point. It's always interesting to find what's probably accidental consistency like that.
To take it further, it also conceivably played a role in why Sarro Xaj lived long enough in the Army of Light to gain the combat experience to become so dangerous to Zannah. He didn't use straight Jar'Kai, but he did use another Kas'im standard, the double-bladed lightsaber staff. Kas'im may have revealed to Bane that it had weaknesses, but the other students were wary of their teacher's exotic weapon. How unsettling would it be to see a massive Jedi with the same weapon as their feared teacher?
No, it just means everyone else is a Vader fanboy, right?
KF Vader has struggled against Serra Keto
Yeah, it can't be that Keto is good it has to be that the guy who pummeled Dooku to kingdom come and is repeatedly touted to be in the same tier as Sheev and Yoda is shit. Unsurprisingly, you also completely ignore that Anakin just had a prolonged duel against Mace right before and also fought his way through scores of Jedi before facing Drallig and Keto.
Suit-Vader has lost to TPM Maul
Because contending with someone who "focused all his skills and energy" for his entire life and is considered and repeatedly touted as one of the most skilled, deadliest, and highly trained Sith Lords in galactic history by objective sources is somehow more embarrassing than being pressed by a guy whose training you sabotaged and has only been trained for a few months tops?
and has been hit by Roan Shryne
Right after getting his suit and in a shitty emotional state. Not to mention he grew more powerful by the end of RoDV, proceeded to grow more powerful for over the next couple of decades, then grew "far more formidable" afterwards, and became "more powerful than he's ever been" as of RotJ. He was massively pre-prime, but of course you ignore that yet again despite the fact that I've told you multiple times.
Suit-Vader has considered the Dark Woman a worthy opponent.
Who produced some of the best lightsaber duelists in the Order and was formidable enough that Mara, the Empire's deadliest agent bar Vader, could not be assured to succeed against her.
Better than being miserable enough to resort to sabotaging his student's training to even stand a chance against him.
And yet he is stomping a Sith Blademaster with the accolades of Kas'im
And what objective accolades does Kas'im have other than Bane's own unsubstantiated musings? Vader, while pre-prime has gone up against duelists who are stated by OOU sources as the being some of the best in history, also coming from the most powerful Jedi Order of all time. Then there's also shit like this:
Kasim being a master in a time of child soldiers and scrapping the bottom of the barrel is not a good mark for him. All his fights are on nexus' and he's just flat inferior to even PoD Bane.
I mean let's look at the "peerless duelist" Ma'kis'shaalas
Ma'kis'shaalas was Jedi Master known in the Order for his combat skill in the Golden Age of the Jedi, and was considered as one of the best Morgukai warriors:
It is for Ma'kis'shaalas's uncanny ability to make immediate and, invariably, correct - decisions and his skill in combat that the Nikto Jedi is best known.
-- Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds
Ma'kis'shaalas is Morgukai-one of the greatest, in fact, and one who committed an unspeakable crime against his former brotherhood.
-- Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds
Ma'kis'shaalas: A Morgukai warrior and Nikto Jedi Master, he survived Order 66. Master Ma'kis'shaalas was known as a fanatical adherent to the Jedi Order, and a fierce combatant. He agreed to meet Master Shadday Potkin on Kessel as part of a plot to ensnare Darth Vader. Vader cut Ma'kis'shaalas down in combat.
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Morgukai in general are considered as "elite Jedi-killing warriors" and "peerless duelists":
The red-skinned Kajain'sa'Nikto subspecies famously produced one of the most elite warrior traditions in the galaxy: the "Jedi-killing" cult of the Morgukai. These peerless duelists are among the only non-Force users to repeatedly defeat both Jedi and Sith in melee combat. Fortunately for their opponents, the Morgukai's numbers remain few, but their battle tactics are closely guarded secrets.
-- Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
Beyond their incredible abilities in combat, however, the philosophical teachings of the Morgukai cult are a mystery–they do not speak of their beliefs to outsiders, even under threat of death.
I mean this guy is the best of a line of elite duellists. So I'm sure Vader will struggle-
Oh wait Vader stomped him in one move despite only just getting his suit and still recovering from Mustafar.
This is exactly how a fight between Vader and Kasim would go.
Morgukai in general, and without the Force are considered as elite combatants and "peerless duelists" and Vader, whilst fighting multiple other Jedi, just stomped one of the best Morgukai warriors who happened to be a Jedi Master and was also known for his skill in combat no less Not to mention Vader was in a shitty emotional state, barely accustomed to his suit and cybernetics, having spent only a month in it and he's stomping people with credentials just as, if not more impressive than Kas'im's, while simultaneously fighting off multiple Jedi masters.
But hey, I'm obviously just another fanboy who lacks any objectivity.
Because contending with someone who "focused all his skills and energy" for his entire life and is considered and repeatedly touted as one of the most skilled, deadliest, and highly trained Sith Lords in galactic history by objective sources is somehow more embarrassing than being pressed by a guy whose training you sabotaged and has only been trained for a few months tops?
Also it was an illusion concocted by Palpatine to refine Vader's hate. Which happened to be Vader's win condition.
@richard96: He brought up Anakin being pressed in a fight against Keto, and the only material that it appears in. Might as well refute it. But yeah, it's not canon and he's just finding ways to lowball Vader. Not surprising coming from the guy who thinks Knightfall Anakin can't stomp Venamis.
From the same blog where Chee confirmed it's canoncity
The Vader vs. Maul brawl is canon? It's not quite the real Darth Maul. Hence the "or something." Who knows, it could have been a vision like Luke confronting Vader on Dagobah or just some sort of Sith illusion. Or a clone. Nothing's been determined as to what we are actually seeing, just that Vader and Maul have a pretty cool battle.
1. Bringing someone completely back from nothing is unprecedented and unreplicated in all of SW (remember that in this continuity Maul was melted after he was bisected)
2. Sidious conveniently showed up when Vader won. Sidious has made it frequently known that he wishes to test Vader. Making it all the more likely that it was his acolytes setting it up as a test.
3. Look at how Vader won. Look at what Maul is saying to him. He is urging him to refine his hate and the moment Vader finds it, he wins.
To address proper counter points.
"How could Vader have not known it was an illusion."
Well, one, it's Sidious. Nothing more should need be said there. Also don't forget his dark adepts present who are all trained in Sith Sorcery
Also let's not forget that sith illusions can be frightently realistic. Let's look at this example from one of Palps Sith traps on Zigoola
Obi-Wan Kenobi wielded his lightsaber like some elemental force of nature. As though the blade were a living extension of himself, indivisible from his own flesh and blood. All trace of exhaustion was wiped clean from him; his energy seemed limitless as he leapt and twisted and somersaulted and spun, his lightsaber humming, flashing blue through the shadows. It was almost possible to believe he was fighting an actual, physical foe: every cut, every parry, every bind and counter bind with the blade seemed to encounter another slashing lightsaber. His body reacted as though to a series of jarring blows, every muscle in him tensed against the impact, his face set hard with a formidable determination to prevail
Wild Space
Kenobi can even feel the impacts from the illusion. Hell the illusion is moving him. So illusions being this realistic is well established. Even better Zigoola was a trap set by Palps himself. So we have precedence.
"Vader still has physical wounds on his armour!"
That disappear the moment Sids is pleased with his results.
Before (note the right hand top side of his helmet)
And after
Note the last few panels. Not a damn scratch. It was an illusion.
"But it was referenced in a sourcebook"
All that is mentioned is that it was "rumoured" that Vader and Maul fought there.
My question is this: How was it rumoured? The only people to leave that rock alive were...... Palps and Vader.
Vader would never tell anyone. But Palps would totally tell the truth right? It's not like he's a politician who has precedence for disseminating rumours to hype Vader right?
Oh.
The Vader vs Maul fight was an illusion no more valid than any other vision fight.
I cannot believe the illusion conspiracy theory is still being used as canon.
If that is so, then I can say Snoke is a master duelist because there's a theory out there saying he's Mace Windu. Can I use that in a battle forum? No, but it has as much evidence backing it up as the utter bullcrap that is the "illusion" theory.
@greysentinel365: Fair points. Never heard that brought up before, tbh. It also fits in with Sidious' motivations given how he said that wanted to reawaken Vader's power.
If that is so, then I can say Snoke is a master duelist because there's a theory out there saying he's Mace Windu. Can I use that in a battle forum? No, but it has as much evidence backing it up as the utter bullcrap that is the "illusion" theory.
Log in to comment