Kapushion (CW) vs Elektra (MCU)

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Slade-Prime

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Conditions

  • Standard Gear.
  • Both have basic knowledge.
  • Takes place where Oliver fought Sampson in Slabside.
  • Who wins?
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Subline

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Elektra.

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TheSuperor

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Oliver murders her.

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incursio

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Assuming pre Black Sky, Oliver. If not, Elektra.

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KoLKent

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Elektra either way

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TheSuperor

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@kolkent said:

Elektra either way

How? Oliver will literally just shoot her with an arrow.

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KoLKent

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#7  Edited By KoLKent

@thesuperor:

There's a 10 feet starting distance in this fight. The Hood never made any impressive fast paced shots on anyone who wasn't fodder during Flashbacks - S1.

What makes you think Oliver can pull it off before Elektra closes in?

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geekryan

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@incursio said:

Assuming pre Black Sky, Oliver. If not, Elektra.

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mexcomics2078

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Probabl oliver . But Elektra has a chance with the sais

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TheSuperor

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@kolkent:

There's a 10 feet starting distance in this fight. The Hood never made any impressive fast paced shots on anyone who wasn't fodder during Flashbacks - S1.

Doesn't really matter if they were fodder or not, takes nothing away from how fast he could draw his bow even back then. He could outdraw Kovar's gunmen who already had their guns drawn on him and he kills 3 men in 2 seconds with shots fired from short range in the hallway in Kapushion episode.

What makes you think Oliver can pull it off before Elektra closes in?

Mostly the two feats above. I don't think Oliver needs to close the gap as he is better than her up close as well. He is definitely faster and stronger, same level of skill and way, way more durable. His fights against mirakuru Slade, Totem Reiter, Kovar are all showings that puts him well above Elektra for me.

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buildhare

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The disrespect is real

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RBT

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Oliver shoots her.

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KoLKent

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#13  Edited By KoLKent

@thesuperor: @thesuperor:

I checked out the instance you were referring to (Season 5 episode 17) he took two arrows and fired them at once. Shooting fodder and shooting someone competent does matter because anyone competent could replicate something similar to this and aim dodge the arrow. It's not like Elektra hasn't fought archers before.

Loading Video...

Oliver's feats you mentioned consist of fighting gangsters and getting destroyed by superhumans. I don't see Elektra taking on those superhumans because she doesn't have the durability for that but in this fight she had standard gear which consists of sais so durability really doesn't mean much.

In terms of skill they are definitely not equal, Elektra cleared a pit full of Hand ninjas with weapons and only didn't clear because Matt distracted her. She performed a similar feat on the rooftop during the Season 2 finale and beat a majority of them (they were definitely at least 15 ninjas in that rooftop). You brought up fighting Kovar who's for the most part featless.

Elektra fought Stick to a stalemate who handed Matt his ass during Season 1 hand to hand. Matt also arrow times and does it just as casually as Oliver and he doesn't seem to be any faster than Elektra. Oliver doesn't have a speed edge either.

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RBT

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@kolkent: One, Stick held back against her. Second, has Elektra ever arrow timed? Third, Matt being an arrow timer means nothing for Elektra. But if you do wanna go that way, then Oliver was taking on multiple bullet timers at the same time.

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KoLKent

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#15  Edited By KoLKent

@rbt:

Stick thought she's be the death of the world if he didn't kill her, he wouldn't hold back any more than he did against Matt even assuming he did hold back.

I dont recall Elektra arrow timing and I never said she would, I said Elektra can just aim dodge which isn't out of reason because Oliver has never hit anyone half worth their salt with an arrow during the flashbacks. Especially at a distance this close.

I don't know what Superor was referencing when he said Oliver was faster, I assumed it was catching that arrow with his back originally turned in which case Elektra has kept up with comparably fast opponents.

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RBT

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@kolkent:

Stick thought she's be the death of the world if he didn't kill her, he wouldn't hold back any more than he did against Matt even assuming he did hold back.

He held back even after she became the 'death of the world'. To the point where his hesitation got him killed. The guy was blinded by his love for Elektra.

Regardless, Elektra is more skilled than Kapushion if we aren't using later season scaling.

I dont recall Elektra arrow timing and I never said she would, I said Elektra can just aim dodge which isn't out of reason because Oliver has never hit anyone half worth their salt with an arrow during the flashbacks. Especially at a distance this close.

Oliver was making mile-long shots against the wind in S2 flashbacks, but he can't hit a human-sized target from 10 ft? The heck?

I don't know what Superor was referencing when he said Oliver was faster, I assumed it was catching that arrow with his back originally turned in which case Elektra has kept up with comparably fast opponents.

No. You said that Oliver likely can't draw an arrow and shoot it before Elektra closes in. Superor pointed out that instance from 5x17 to prove he can. Oliver was able to draw arrows and shoot them perfectly after two guys had already aimed their guns at him and before they could pull the trigger. That's more than enough to suggest that he can get shots off before Elektra decides to run in and actually closes the gap.

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mrmonster

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Kapushion

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TheSuperor

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@kolkent: Elektra has never displayed aim dodging of that caliber. Just cause some fodder did in once doesn't automatically mean that Elektra can do it as well. She has never dodged an arrow.

Oliver's feats you mentioned consist of fighting gangsters and getting destroyed by superhumans. I don't see Elektra taking on those superhumans because she doesn't have the durability for that but in this fight she had standard gear which consists of sais so durability really doesn't mean much.

Well of course durability means something. Oliver has endured a lot of torture, and has been cut by knifes and pierced by arrows and still managed to fight through. He can take an incredible amount of punishment, best displayed by the torture he received by the whip, the red drug from Kovar and the torture by Reiter.

Oliver's weapon and is also better for reach and his guard is pretty damn good, I think Elektra would struggle to tag him with her sais.

In terms of skill they are definitely not equal, Elektra cleared a pit full of Hand ninjas with weapons and only didn't clear because Matt distracted her. She performed a similar feat on the rooftop during the Season 2 finale and beat a majority of them (they were definitely at least 15 ninjas in that rooftop). You brought up fighting Kovar who's for the most part featless.

I can't remember all of the feats you are referring to, but I do remember the roof top fight, where the ninjas did not want her killed nor harmed. The ninjas attack her one at the time and I can count at least 3 times where she was put in a hold or tackled to the ground by a single ninja. She did not beat 15 of them, half of the ninjas fall on the ground without being touched, I can count 8 ninjas that she approaches.

Kovar was strong as hell and displayed great skill when fighting Oliver. Kovar has one of the most casual neck snaps you'll ever see, putting him in a different tier of strength.

Elektra fought Stick to a stalemate who handed Matt his ass during Season 1 hand to hand

Stick held back as rbt already pointed out.

Matt also arrow times and does it just as casually as Oliver and he doesn't seem to be any faster than Elektra.

Well, he does seem to be way faster than Elektra as he can catch and deflects arrows. What are you talking about?

Oliver doesn't have a speed edge either.

Can catch arrows shot from behind after they were fired. He clearly has a speed edge.

Sorry if this post was a complete mess. My PC is really acting up and the formatting looks really weird for me.

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BladeOfFury

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#20 BladeOfFury  Online

I would Elektra if she closes in, due to her feat against 19 hand ninjas.

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TheSuperor

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#22  Edited By TheSuperor

@the__youngbucks: How about a civil debate? Never the way to go what you are doing right now.

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BladeOfFury

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#23 BladeOfFury  Online

@the__youngbucks: I don’t think getting tagged several times while fighting 19 ninjas is such a bad feat.

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TheSuperor

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@jsfjkfjklsdfkls: I mean, this is all just for fun. People shouldn't get banned for having different opinions that your self, however the way you are talking is a reason for getting banned.

There is no reason for debating the same people 60 times, you clearly just have to agree to disagree. I agree with you, Oliver whoops the floor with Elektra, but not everyone will view it that way.

These debates are about having fun. They are not serious at all.

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Stormdriven

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If it’s Pre-Defenders Elektra, Oliver wipes the floor with her. Black Sky Elektra wrecks him though

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nfactor1995

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What flashback season is Kapushion? Legit don't remember. Regardless, can't see Elektra beating him post season 4ish flashbacks, but my memory is somewhat fuzzy on the flashbacks.

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TheSuperor

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What flashback season is Kapushion? Legit don't remember. Regardless, can't see Elektra beating him post season 4ish flashbacks, but my memory is somewhat fuzzy on the flashbacks.

Kapushion is season 5.

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TheSuperor

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#30  Edited By TheSuperor

@jsfjkfjklsdfkls: I think you are best off with leaving Comic Vine if that is how you feel. I feel safe saying that you won't be missed, so kindly go ahead.

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TheSuperor

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#33  Edited By TheSuperor

@youngbuckselite: Who have I been lowballing?

I don't know who I am talking to, I don't know who's alt this is, so I don't know if we have debated before. But you are accusing me of a lot of shit that don't do.

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KoLKent

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#34  Edited By KoLKent

@thesuperor:@rbt

.

RBT: What S2 Flashback shots are you referencing? The one from the pilot comes to mind but that's Season 1

No. You said that Oliver likely can't draw an arrow and shoot it before Elektra closes in. Superor pointed out that instance from 5x17 to prove he can. Oliver was able to draw arrows and shoot them perfectly after two guys had already aimed their guns at him and before they could pull the trigger.

No, what I meant was Oliver wouldn't be able to actually shoot her (tag her with an arrow) before she closes in and this becomes a CQC fight.

.

No, what I meant was Oliver wouldn't be able to actually shoot her (tag her with an arrow) before she closes in and this becomes a CQC fight.

The fodder Oliver shot were stationary and wouldn't even try and attempt to dodge the shot because they had guns and would try out and outdraw him. Elektra has no reason to stand there like a statue, she knows what an archer is, she's quote obviously fought them before and she has standard knowledge as per thread rules.

The assumption here is that the starting distance is 10 feet because there's no distance specified. For refrence the length of an average car is 14 feet.

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this Corrola is approximately 15.2 feet in length. That's even bigger than the starting distance and its already feeling cramped for an archer to even consider firing a shot on a trained killer (Oliver has standard knowledge as well).

Now you're right, Elektra has never arrow timed but I think it's fair to use some common sense to assume Elektra isn't gonna just stand there and wait to get shot. She sees Oliver grab the arrow and pull the draw string and she's already gonna move out of his line of fire. The whole getting a shot on someone who's not just gonna stand there is honestly a bonkers concept to me.

.

As for Stick I can get behind him holding back but there's absolutely no reason he'd hold back more against Matthew than he would against Elektra, unless you wanna argue Stick had favourites between the two people he considered children.

.

Kovar's choreography is obviously gonna be good, he's portrayed by Dolph Lundgren, choreography alone doesn't put you above other characters though. Outside of his two fights with Oliver after his training with Talia he wrecked Oliver before his training with Talia but was also tortured for a full week prior and this is noted right before the fight and beating Anatoly with the aid of an ambush. Neither being very impressive...at all

Snapping necks can be accomplished in real life using proper technique with almost no force at all. Oliver picking up grown men and treating then like ragdolls seems much more impressive to me as does something like this (launching a grown man) about 15 feet with a kick.

Loading Video...

The guy she's fighting is a Chaste Champion. His credentials definitely surpass those of being the deadliest gangster in Russia. We know his background (trained with Stick in his band of ninjas and one of their best fighters) and she beats him using his own weapons against him. That seems a lot more impressive than beating Kovar if you ask me.

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but I do remember the roof top fight, where the ninjas did not want her killed nor harmed. The ninjas attack her one at the time and I can count at least 3 times where she was put in a hold or tackled to the ground by a single ninja. She did not beat 15 of them, half of the ninjas fall on the ground without being touched, I can count 8 ninjas that she approaches.

The ninjas all ganged up on her (some stayed back but the majority seemed to engage in the conflict)

Granted my original number of 15 seems to be a bit of a highball but there are at least 10 Ninja(s) I can count who are attempting to subdue her and this seems consistent with the rest of the shots
Granted my original number of 15 seems to be a bit of a highball but there are at least 10 Ninja(s) I can count who are attempting to subdue her and this seems consistent with the rest of the shots

They aren't trying to kill her in this scene but they certainly are trying to subdue her. Even if you argue that they all didn't attack her at the exact same time (which is fair) she's still engaged all of them and she's clearly defending herself from all angles. The ninja obviously aren't intended to be incompetent, why treat them as such? They attempted subdue in the best formation they knew how.

She gets tackled to the ground a lot because her attention is split 10 ways...she's may not be punching and parrying 10 attacks at once but she's still fighting 10 trained killers surrounding her working as a unit to accomplish their goal. I can point out a lot of instances where the fodder on Arrow just run into the fighter's punch gets knocked out or affected by punches that clearly don't even make contact. Same for main 1v1 fights there are instances on Arrow where it's painfully obvious the attacks do not make contact but the characters pretend they're hit anyways.

Also I triple checked...none of the fodder just fall down Nolan style.

.

Weapons wise, two sais are definitely better than a single bow, that's not remotely debatable. You brought up his pain tolerance feats. I don't recall which feats you're referencing with Reitar and the whip. He did survive the red death drug but he only started fighting after the effects wore off.

He could fight through a single stab from a Sai but it would slow him down indefinitely, his best feat in this category appears to be fighting through a stab from a pocket knife to the leg, a sai hurts packs a hell of a lot more pain having three pointed tips and is much longer for deeper penetration.

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Speed wise even Season 1 Matt could deflect arrows and he could catch Arrows without looking before he started improving during Season 2. Elektra can fight at comparable speeds and has kept up with him in a spar and performed similarly/superior against Stick which implies they're close in speed. You're arguing Oliver is faster because he caught an arrow. I'm arguing Elektra is just as fast because she can keep up with an opponent who possesses a similar figure of speed.

You could also make the argument that one's reaction speed doesn't translate to combat speed - Diaz repeatedly failed spectacularly at reacting to arrows and yet Oliver didn't seem to have any sort of combat speed advantage over him

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KoLKent

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I would Elektra if she closes in, due to her feat against 19 hand ninjas.

Thoughts on this? She seems to be only fighting 10...there's some hand ninjas standing back behind Matt and Nobu for whatever reason not engaging in either conflict

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KoLKent

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BladeOfFury

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#42 BladeOfFury  Online

@kolkent said:
@bladeoffury said:

I would Elektra if she closes in, due to her feat against 19 hand ninjas.

Thoughts on this? She seems to be only fighting 10...there's some hand ninjas standing back behind Matt and Nobu for whatever reason not engaging in either conflict

No Caption Provided

There was many more of them at the beginning:

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I would say that the bigger number is more reliable. In the screenshot above, the directors could have had any number of ninjas they wanted, and there would be no complications. It was entirely their choice. In the scene where Elektra actually fights them, however, having too many ninjas would be problematic. If they make all the ninjas look competent, then Elektra's stunt-double wouldn't be good enough to fight them off. If they make the ninjas flail around 10 feet away from the action, that's CW-level choreography and this is "Daredevil." Complications.

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RBT

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Yes. Fighting fodders who come at you one at a time and are trying not to kill you is an amazing feat. BoF is turning into Anthp 2.0.

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BladeOfFury

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#45 BladeOfFury  Online

@rbt: When all the fodders are already in the room with the character and still attack one by one, I usually consider the intent to be that the character is fighting them all at once, and attribute what we see to the stuntman's inability to handle so many competent opponents and the directors' unwillingness to make those opponents incompetent.

As for the fact that they weren't trying to kill her, they were unarmed, so that wasn't really a threat.

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RBT

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@bladeoffury:

When all the fodders are already in the room with the character and still attack one by one, I usually consider the intent to be that the character is fighting them all at once, and attribute what we see to the stuntman's inability to handle so many competent opponents and the directors' unwillingness to make those opponents incompetent.

Well, that's a completely baseless and stupid conclusion to come to, but you do you.

As for the fact that they weren't trying to kill her, they were unarmed, so that wasn't really a threat.

We literally see them trying to grab her instead of hitting her... Keep digging please.

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BladeOfFury

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#47 BladeOfFury  Online

@rbt:

Well, that's a completely baseless and stupid conclusion to come to, but you do you.

The alternate conclusion is that the ninjas who have spent their entire lives training in combat are brainless idiots who don't know that attacking at once is better than attacking 1 by 1. Do you think this is what the writers intended instead?

Now, there is the fear factor to be considered, but I don't think Hand ninjas should be afraid of cqc with weapons. This can maybe apply to Morgan vs the wolves. I can see counter-arguments from this side though.

We literally see them trying to grab her instead of hitting her... Keep digging please.

We see them try to do both. What's your point?

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KoLKent

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This can maybe apply to Morgan vs the wolves. I can see counter-arguments from this side though.

Strong bait

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RBT

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#49  Edited By RBT

@bladeoffury:

The alternate conclusion is that the ninjas who have spent their entire lives training in combat are brainless idiots who don't know that attacking at once is better than attacking 1 by 1. Do you think this is what the writers intended instead?

We don't have to assume shit. If we saw them going at her one after another or in a group of 2, and most of them waiting behind, that's what we'll assume. There are multiple ways to showcase them attacking at once. Cut scenes or simply have the fight happen off-screen after solidifying that they went all at once like was the case with Black Sky vs ninjas.

We see them try to do both. What's your point?

My point is that I really hope this is bait. Because otherwise, its a downright stupid to assume what you're assuming. I'm almost definitely sure that you're baiting, but you never know.

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BladeOfFury

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#50 BladeOfFury  Online

@rbt:

We don't have to assume shit. If we saw them going at her one after another or in a group of 2, and most of them waiting behind, that's what we'll assume. There are multiple ways to showcase them attacking at once. Cut scenes or simply have the fight happen off-screen after solidifying that they went all at once like was the case with Black Sky vs ninjas.

We assume whatever we think the writers intended, and oftentimes, what writers intended isn't what literally happened on-screen. You don't have to look any further than a bullet: on-screen, it clearly doesn't travel anywhere near as fast as it does IRL, but we ignore what we see, and assume that the directors intended a bullet to travel as fast as an actual bullet. The discrepancy between the screen and intent can also be explained by the fact that it's difficult to get a bullet to travel as fast as a real bullet using CGI. Likewise, while we see the ninjas attacking in small groups, we should assume whatever we think the writers intended: that the ninjas aren't dumber that 3rd graders and were all fighting her. The discrepancy between the screen and intent can also be explained by the fact that it's difficult to get a stuntman to fight 15 opponents at once without making these opponents look horrible (cut scenes can't fix that and off-screen fights are disappointing).

You know, the same line of reasoning that you're using can also be used to justify the choreography argument: "If we saw Oliver having horrible form and technique, that's what we'll assume." We know that the writers intended for Oliver to be extremely skilled, however, despite the fact that his on-screen actions often fail to match that intent.

My point is that I really hope this is bait. Because otherwise, its a downright stupid to assume what you're assuming. I'm almost definitely sure that you're baiting, but you never know.

You said they tried to grab her. Yes, they did. They also tried to hit her, and sometimes succeeded. What's your point with that?