Kaneki (Tokyo Ghoul) vs Kimimaro (Naruto)

Rules:

-In-Character

-Standard Gear

-Random Encounter

-EoS Kaneki

-Win by KO or Death

-Location: Abandoned Forest @Night

-Who Wins and Why?

Some callouts :)

@kingcrimson

@joewell@khael@joewell911@just_banter@v

Kimimaro is much faster and would easily clown Ken for a while. I dont think he can put him down though so it depends on weather he can incapacitate with bone constructs. Otherwise Ken eventually stabs him in the brain.

Post-Dragon Kaneki can do it IMO. Kimi likely has a speed advantage, but Kaneki isn’t totally outstripped. Aside from that, they’re largely similar; both crazy agile, both insanely skilled (though through scaling, Kimi more so), both have bodies tougher than steel, both create weapons from their own flesh, both have some wild ground attacks, both have solid range. There are some obvious differences, like Kimi’s ability to teleport through his bones when he uses Bracken Dance, and Kaneki’s far superior regen.

Ken’s AoE attacks would work as a solid counter to Kimi’s speed, and he’s likely to skewer the shinobi before he wears down Ken’s regen.

Bump

kaneki dies. horribly.

@zuriel-el: Why do you think so man?

@kingcrimson:

1. way too durable.

buried under 200meters of gaaras sand (harder than tempered steel.

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/217/8

forces his way out by turning the battle field into a field of spikes harder than gaaras sand.

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/217/11

and comes out without a scratch, kimimaro was sick when he did this.

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/217/13

2. way too fast, kn0 naruto is faster (as in naruto blitzed him severally) than sasuke (hypersonic, the guy outstripped sound before training for speed, and outstripped explosions after training) and kimimaro blitzed over a hundred narutos without naruto landing a hit. rock lee who is arguably faster than both naruto and sasuke received a one sided beating when kimimaro took him seriously.

3. kaneki can't regen forever, and damaging his opponent will be tasking indeed.

1. way too durable.

buried under 200meters of gaaras sand (harder than tempered steel.

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/217/8

Can you quantify that for me? Kaneki has cut through people and materials with pretty ridiculous durability feats.

forces his way out by turning the battle field into a field of spikes harder than gaaras sand.

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/217/11

Any proof that they’re harder? They are projected with a serious amount of force, granted, but I could push my hand through a bucket of small steel balls - it doesn‘t mean my hand is tougher than steel. Plus, tempered steel isn‘t enough to stop Ken‘s kagune.

and comes out without a scratch, kimimaro was sick when he did this.

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/217/13

Kimi has a mild healing factor, and he came out through one of his bones and immediately died. I don’t think you can say he did it without a scratch. Before you say it, I’m well aware his illness was a major factor in his death.

2. way too fast, kn0 naruto is faster (as in naruto blitzed him severally) than sasuke (hypersonic, the guy outstripped sound before training for speed, and outstripped explosions after training) and kimimaro blitzed over a hundred narutos without naruto landing a hit. rock lee who is arguably faster than both naruto and sasuke received a one sided beating when kimimaro took him seriously.

Several issues with that:

1. Naruto fought and beat Sasuke after he fought Kimi. Naruto’s emotions are also a direct component to how much of the 9 tails Chakra he could use. It seems to me, like Naruto was simply faster when he fought Sauce than he was when he fought Kimi.
2. Kimi dropped clones in droves, which despite being technically the same as Naruto in the original series, always seemed markedly weaker to me.
3. Kimi also didn’t seem to blitz them in the manga - not in the traditional sense - he was just a far better fighter.
4. Rock Lee without weights was directly stated to be as fast as post-training a Sasuke (and vice-versa), which doesn’t make sense in regards to the other points you are trying to make.

3. kaneki can't regen forever, and damaging his opponent will be tasking indeed.

Well, according to the manga, after him consuming half of Tokyo he had enough RC cells to maintain a small city sized kagune for over 200 years. If anything, he‘d outlast Kimimaro in a battle of attrition.

That said, he should be perfectly capable of cutting Kimi’s head off or stabbing him through the heart.

@zuriel-el: Sorry man, forgot to tag you.

Bump

Where all the Kimi fans at

Kaneki Kan

Bump

@KingCrimson:

gaaras sand normally is harder than steel, he tried squeezing kimimaro with it and failed then he burried kimimaro in two hundred meters of it and hardened it, kimimaro came out unscathed.

gaaras sand wasn't arranged in clusters, it was one solid structure kimimaro was burried in. it would be like trying to push through concrete wall with your hand not a bucket of iron balls. if your hand isn't harder than said wall even if you applied enough force your hand would be crushed.

he died because he was ill, not because gaara killed him. He had been ill and unable to di any work or he would've fought at orochimarus side against the third hokage, orochimaru actually wanted him as a container but je fell sick. he came as a last resort and only had a few hours to live and he used them up.

1. no it doesn't, the seal wasn't weakening at the time. sasuke was hypersonic, naruto blitzed him, kimimaro blitzed naruto.

2. i don't get what you mean here.

3. he cut through an army of them before they could move, thats what blitz is.

4. well thats opinion.

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/111/19

lees starting speed.

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/112/4

about the same... is not the same as, its exactly as afst as lee.

and the fact that lee (drunken lee) was able to land hits on kimimaro when an army of kn0 naruto couldn't. well.

wow kaneki really stepped up. maintaining kagune isn't regen is it? and in all that kagune his real body is somewhere there. kimimaro is too durable to be ripped through and too fast to be tagged.

@zuriel-el: @zuriel-el: There’s no proof he hardened the sand - it literally sucks him in so it’s obvious that it wasn’t completely solid. In any case, he may have the blunt force durability to resist being KO’d, but it doesn’t mean that Kimi’s durable enough to withstand being slashed up by somebody who can cut through things many many times tougher than tempered steel.

The feat itself directly contradicts the idea that the sand was packed together as tightly as a concrete wall, so I don’t agree with that statement.

Yeah I know, as I mentioned, I’m aware that his illness was the main factor in his death, in just saying you can’t entirely rule out that the sand was a factor seeing as he died immediately after its use.

1. The seal weakens every time that Naruto uses the Nine Tails chakra, and after using KN0 against Sasuke it weakened enough for him to manifest 1 tail - the feats directly contradict what you are saying.

2. I meant that even though Naruto’s clones are technically “identical” to Naruto, I don’t think they ever perform as well as he does as as an individual, at least in the original manga. That said, I don’t think KN0 Naruto blitzing Sasuke can be used to compare against Kimi beating the KN0 clones.

3. Can you show me that? Cause when I read the manga, I saw plenty of clones attacking Kimi.

4. In the translations I read, Guy admits that Sasuke is practically the same speed as Lee:

http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Naruto-chapter-112-page-5.html

And yet what you’re saying is Lee > Kimi > KN0 Naruto > Sasuke(/Lee)? How can you not see the holes in that? And even worse, all of those characters are fast enough to blitz Gaara, and yet Gaara kept up with Kimi. He might be fast, but he’s not overwhelmingly so and nor does he abuse any apparent speed advantage.

Maintaining a kagune isn’t exactly the same as regen, but both require RC cells to perform. Just in context, human sized Kurona stated she was possibly going to run out of stamina (I.e. RC cells) after about an hour (my personal assumption) of combat. Kaneki as dragon was stated to be able to mainta a literal city sized kagune for over 200 years. As a human sized combatant, he should be at least dozens of times that, meaning his regen should last him a lot longer than any one fight.

Naruto + 1000 clones >>> Naruto without clones

Naruto (when wasn't even a genin) horribly stomped a Chunin after he create hundreds of clones. Same Chunin who he can't even touch on his own.

Transformed Gaara stomped Base Naruto (without clones), but Transformed Gaara got destroyed by multiple Base clones.

And KN0 clones >>> Base clones.

Clones making Naruto weaker is nothing but fanon.

@KingCrimson: gaara hardens his sand once he burries people in it.

what? gaaras sand it harder than steel, this is actually stated in the forest of death.

kimimaro ran out of time, he died when the candle on orochimarus table burned out.

1. true, but against sasuke kn0 is the same he us used against kimimaro.

2. false, someone else proved this.

3. as many as got hit by him couldn't do anything and he was in base, ni curse seal activated.

4. oh well, kno beats sasuke (whonis supposed to be lee tier), faiked to hi someone lee forced to use a curse seal, which is more likely, yours that claims they're equal, or mine that says almost. based on what we've seen, lee just got out of the hospital and outdid kno naruto who sasuke needed pre cog to deal with.

no im saying kimi>lee (kimi beat him)>kno naruto>sasuke

no holes, i never claimed sasuje was lees equal, you did.

gaara had trained past his former self, the gaara at the chunin exam is fodder compared to the one that battled kimimaro, in every aspect. we actually see gaaras aoe cover the entire battle field, and he makes more sand unlike before. and his speed improved to the point where he could catch lee with sand when lee wanted to run, he tagged kimimaro severally too, something kno naruto was incapable of.

assuming he isn't ripped to shreds, kimimaro isn't going to keep stabbing aafter realizing its not working, he will result to cutting his opponent to pieces. he won't try for attrition, he isn't cut out for that, he will try to settle it quick, besides wouldn't getting a pole sized spear through the head knock kaneki out for a while.

Kimimaro wins. Best in all stats, except speed.

gaara sand is not harder than steel is normal sand he just has an absurd amount of it, even water if enough can stop a bullet.

Gaara sand literally comes from his surroundings like when he fought Deidara.

Kimimaro bones on the other hand are steel or higher.

comparing Naruto to Lee in taijutsu is failure.

Gaara's sand was able to shield from a 360 degree attack from needles that can pierce through steel.

is normal sand

Yeah... normal sand can block point blank explosions...

@raziel2014: Gaara sand is far from normal sand it's stated fo be harder than steel and feats way harder than steel.

@beta-56:

Naruto + 1000 clones >>> Naruto without clones

Naruto (when wasn't even a genin) horribly stomped a Chunin after he create hundreds of clones. Same Chunin who he can't even touch on his own.

Transformed Gaara stomped Base Naruto (without clones), but Transformed Gaara got destroyed by multiple Base clones.

I'm not arguing that fighting 1000 clones is tougher than fighting Naruto by himself, nor am I arguing that Kimi defeating all of them isn't an amazing feat. I'm just questioning the individual strength of the clones -- after all, fighting 1000 teenagers would be a hell of a lot tougher than fighting one grown man, despite them being individually weaker.

And KN0 clones >>> Base clones.

Naturally.

Clones making Naruto weaker is nothing but fanon.

Don't they canonically split his chakra? Technically they do make him weaker, as an individual.

Still, I've just read back a few of his fights and the difference isn't as drastic as I remembered, admittedly.

@kingcrimson: his chakra is split but I don't think chakra effects speed and strength. Naruto did once fight his own clones while learning summoning jutsu as a way to burn his own natural chakra and use Kurama's and he ended up winning. (Not sure if that's anime only or not )

Clones in Naruto do split their chakra and at least in the Kakashi novel a base Naruto clone got lolblitzed by a ninja roughly equal to Kakashi.

Kimimaro blitzes and one shots

@zuriel-el:

gaara hardens his sand once he burries people in it.

When he uses sand coffin he does, but there's no proof he did it when he buried Kimi.

what? gaaras sand it harder than steel, this is actually stated in the forest of death.

Can you show me?

kimimaro ran out of time, he died when the candle on orochimarus table burned ou

Doesn't invalidate the point I made.

1. true, but against sasuke kn0 is the same he us used against kimimaro.

2. false, someone else proved this.

3. as many as got hit by him couldn't do anything and he was in base, ni curse seal activated.

4. oh well, kno beats sasuke (whonis supposed to be lee tier), faiked to hi someone lee forced to use a curse seal, which is more likely, yours that claims they're equal, or mine that says almost. based on what we've seen, lee just got out of the hospital and outdid kno naruto who sasuke needed pre cog to deal with.

1. I completely disagree with that. He was using so much of the Nine Tails chakra in his fight against Sasuke that he was screaming in pure anger, his screams were causing shockwaves, his speed blatantly increased and he ended up unlocking 1 tail. It was totally different from his fight with Kimi.
2. It wasn't proved, he just refuted my point.
3. Still, plenty of them attacked Kimi and they reacted to his movements for the most part.
4. On the translation I've seen, Guy (the man with the most intimate knowledge of Lee's speed, save Lee himself) stated that they were practically the same speed:

Gallery

Even Lee himself was impressed with Sasuke's speed. Arguing over the semantics seems silly, when it was made abundantly clear in that fight that Sasuke had reached Lee's level of speed.

no im saying kimi>lee (kimi beat him)>kno naruto>sasuke

Kimi might of beat him, but beating somebody doesn't mean you're faster. Kimi was shocked at Lee's speed, and it was implied he was reacting to him because Lee's attacks were too predictable. Once he became unpredictable, he started to struggle with Lee's speed.

Given that it was stated on panel that Sasuke and Lee are practically the same speed, I don't think that scaling works. Especially when it seems pretty obvious the KN0 Naruto that Sasuke fought was superior to the clones that Kimi did.

no holes, i never claimed sasuje was lees equal, you did.

Technically the manga did.

gaara had trained past his former self, the gaara at the chunin exam is fodder compared to the one that battled kimimaro, in every aspect. we actually see gaaras aoe cover the entire battle field, and he makes more sand unlike before. and his speed improved to the point where he could catch lee with sand when lee wanted to run, he tagged kimimaro severally too, something kno naruto was incapable of.

Lee wasn't actively trying to avoid Gaara, and there isn't anything to suggest Gaara's speed increased. As far as I am aware, the speed of Gaara's sand is agreed to be a constant (based on him not controlling his auto-defence). KN0 Naruto's clones managed to tag Kimi, he just used his bones to kill them all after they did.

assuming he isn't ripped to shreds, kimimaro isn't going to keep stabbing aafter realizing its not working, he will result to cutting his opponent to pieces. he won't try for attrition, he isn't cut out for that, he will try to settle it quick, besides wouldn't getting a pole sized spear through the head knock kaneki out for a while.

Kaneki's regeneration got pretty ridiculous at the end of the series. His regeneration is canonically superior to Eto's, who regrew her entire head in a matter of seconds:

Gallery

Even the people who she gifted a part of her kagune to were able to laugh off decapitation or being bisected:

Gallery

1-2: Noro getting cut in half and instantly regenerating
3-4: Kanae getting her head kicked off and instantly regenerating

Kaneki has more RC cells than all of these people combined, and insta-healed from being cut in half, having his upper body exploded, and being crushed into pulp:

Gallery

1-3: Having his upper body exploded, then getting rag dolled and sliced in half. Healed in seconds.
4-7: Getting his entire body crushed by Dragon. Healed in seconds and disintegrated her entire kagune.

Getting stabbed in the head isn't doing anything but annoy him.

@mister_stark: It should do, IMO. Case in point; the more of the Nine Tails chakra Naruto is able to utilise, the faster and stronger he gets.

Lol, one shots how? Kaneki isn't getting blitzed either, based on feats.

Ken stomps.

@kingcrimson: My point is KN0 Naruto w/army >> KN0 Naruto by himself. You seem to imply the opposite. Sorry if I misunderstand you.

I'm just questioning the individual strength of the clones -- after all, fighting 1000 teenagers would be a hell of a lot tougher than fighting one grown man, despite them being individually weaker.

The point is Base Kimimaro >> KN0 Naruto w/army >> KN0 Naruto by himself >> Sasuke.

I wasn't saying that each clone is as strong as the original.

Kaneki should win this mid difficulty.

@KingCrimson: your problem is you believe kaneki is close to naruto characters in speed, and gaaras sand speed constant? no... the explosion created by chakra determines the stats of the user? again no...

@zuriel-el: Sorry mate, I didn’t understand your points.

- Are you saying Gaara’s speed isn’t constant?

- If by chakra/stats relation you mean Naruto, it is blatantly obvious and also heavily supported by feats that the more of the nine tails chakra he uses, the higher his stats are amped.

@kingcrimson:

yes it isn't, the sand grew faster.

im saying, that you thinking he was faster because there were explosions all over the place.

@zuriel-el: I was talking about the speed with which Gaara’s sand reacts to attacks.

That isn’t at all what I said? I said it was obvious that Naruto was using more of the Nine Tails chakra based on his causing shockwaves by screaming, something he hadn’t done (definitely not on that scale) prior to his fight with Sasuke. Based on him using a lot more of the Nine Tails chakra, it stands to reason he would have been faster, which fits with him being too fast for Sasuke.

@KingCrimson: and you are still wrong about gaaras sand speed. it got faster.

from his battle with lee, in which he couldn't keep up.

he became able to stop amaterasu (lightning fast speed)

and even stopped the raikagein his tracks (raikage made amaterasu move slow mo) and blitzed ms sasuke.

so no it isn't constant.

so basically shockwaves eh? lol that's unacceptable.

1. when naruto fought neji, the chakra was all over the place.

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/103/naruto-1566273.jpg

(neji was scared, he had seen something like lee but this was scary).

https://i9.mangapanda.com/naruto/103/naruto-1566275.jpg

(pushing wind about)

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/104/naruto-2131.jpg

(forms an aura around naruto) and he says its only as powerful as when he was training.

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/95/naruto-1566144.jpg

during training there was no chakra blowing things away.

https://i3.mangapanda.com/naruto/104/naruto-2130.jpg

(but against neji, there is.)

https://i1.mangapanda.com/naruto/136/naruto-2719.jpg

(he does the same thing when he battles gaara).

question: so is naruto wrong for saying its the same level of power, or are you right because shockwaves.

2. Now when naruto fought haku, there was alot of stuff blown away by his chakra.

https://i5.mangapanda.com/naruto/28/naruto-1565362.jpg

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/28/naruto-1565363.jpg

https://i3.mangapanda.com/naruto/28/naruto-1565370.jpg

(heck he deflected attacks by screaming).

BUT AGAINST DEISDARA.

He goes kno, theres no explosion whatsoever, he doesn't do anything by screaming...

https://i9.mangapanda.com/naruto/276/naruto-1568070.jpg

question: is he faster when he fights haku, is there more of a boost?

3. when he fought sasuke his kno and kn1 caused a lot of rukus. (your stand point so i don't need to provide links)

but when he fought deidara he goes kno and even kn1, no ruckus.

https://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/277/naruto-1568078.jpg

(kn1 no explosion or shockwave).

https://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/277/naruto-1568079.jpg

(kn2 no explosion or shockwave).

question: when did he have more chakra?

4.when he battled orochimaru, just transforming did this.

https://i1.mangapanda.com/naruto/291/naruto-1568242.jpg

https://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/292/naruto-1568236.jpg

https://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/292/naruto-1568235.jpg

(huge bursts of chakra everywhere)

https://i4.mangapanda.com/naruto/292/naruto-1568249.jpg

(his scream destroyed a bridge)

https://i2.mangapanda.com/naruto/293/naruto-1568273.jpg

(and cleared a forest).

going for tails did this.

https://i8.mangapanda.com/naruto/293/naruto-1568274.jpg

https://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/293/naruto-1568276.jpg

(this is against orochimaru).

in fourth tail when he swung his arm, the air pressure VAPOURIZED orochimaru's snakes.

BUT AGAINST PAIN.

he goes four tails. roars no explosion, no cleared anything.

https://i5.mangapanda.com/naruto/437/naruto-8784.jpg

(him screaming here doesn't cuz any damage)

goes six tails, roars and fights, and no shockwaves like when he fought orochimaru.

swinging his arm (simply moving) when he fought oro did a lot, but against pain he moves around chasing pain, no shockwaves.

question: was he stronger when he fought orochimaru compared to when he fought pain, simply because shockwaves?

answers.

1. naruto is right

2. he has more in shippuden as the seal broke progressively.

3. he got more of a boost in shippuden because there are more tails.

4. he was stronger when he fought pain as six tail>>>>>>>...fourth tail.

currently, naruto uses all of kuramas chakra (far more than all the examples above put together) and there are no shockwaves that destroy stuff, his ashura which rivalled six paths susanoo didn't cuz explosions just by coming out, like when kn0 cuzed chakra explosion when he fought haku and sasuke.

So bro, you shouldn't judge simply by chakra explosion, but by feats, and specifically what they were using. kcm doesn't become stronger than kcm because one time it was activated there was an explosion and the other time there wasn't.

causing explosions doesn't mean more chakra. hashirama said bsm naruto was his equal chakra wise, do you see hashirama doing any damage at kn1 naritos level just by flexing (releasing) chakra.

For some reason, my tags to you don’t work unless I quote you, my bad man.

I said:

That doesn’t make sense to me. If Gaara can’t control his auto-defence, he can’t train it to increase its speed, can he?

I’ll happily respond, point by point, the rest of that when I reach a desktop, but what it boils down to is that Naruto was using so much of the Nine Tails chakra against Sasuke that he ended up releasing one tail for the first time. Sure, at later dates he can use that much chakra without causing shockwaves, but he has far more refined control over that amount of chakra during those times. That’s why Hashi can use KN1 levels of chakra without issue, and also why Naruto eventually can.

Naruto causing shockwaves isn’t the defining point. The point was that Naruto was evidently a lot more emotional *and* using more of the Nine Tails chakra. The most obvious indicator of this is that he ends up using one tail, but the emotional screams and huge shockwaves, as well as a blatant increase in stats all point towards it too. Hell, you said yourself that the seal was progressively weakening and causing Naruto to use more of Kurama’s chakra as time passed.

Ergo, saying a Naruto clone from the Kimi fight is = to VoTE KN0 Naruto is flawed IMO. That shouldn’t be used for scaling. Kimi is around Lee tier in speed, evidenced by his fight with Lee.

@kingcrimson:

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/83/5

(sand armour)

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/83/7

(gaara forms it out of sand)

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/83/8

(the defense sand you say he can't control)

and by the way, the defense sand is THESAND HE CARRIESIN THE GORGE, which he also uses for offence when fighting. (against lee and deidara).

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/111/13

against sasuke he actually makes a clone out of said sand.

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/111/14

(read to 16). Gaara has control over his sand.

plus riddle me this. 1. Gaara faced Lee and his sand was too slow, gaara faced sasuke it was too slow.

* kn0 naruto faced kimimaro with an army and couldn't tag kimimaro even once.

* lee comes along and fights until kimimaro gets serious and beats him out of his drunken state back to sobberity, defeats the first gate. note lee and sasuke are in the same speed bracket..

* gaara faces kimimaro, and tags kimimaro repeatedly, without defense sand (defense sand is faster than the new sand he makes on the battle field, deidara confirmed this)

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/249/naruto-4848.jpg

(defense and offence, it is faster than other sand)

QUESTION: how can you say the speed of his sand didn't change?

2. when the sound four come to kidnap sasuke sakon beat sasuke on his lonesome.

https://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/178/naruto-3500.jpg

(in base)

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/179/naruto-3506.jpg

(then curse seal)

https://i1.mangapanda.com/naruto/179/naruto-3507.jpg

(how he mocked sasuke)

* sakon, jirobo, tayuya and kidoumaru faced four jonin and they went all out to win and were worn out. note sakon is equal to sasuke in speed or greater since sasuke lost to him.

* kimimaro stomped four of them without activating a full curse seal.

QUESTION: How is it you think kimimaro is sasuke tier or slower than kn0 naruto?

Why are you of the opinion that gaara's sand is the same as when he fought sasuke, sasuke is clearly inferior to kimimaro, amd gaara can tag kimimaro, so is kimimaro slower than the chunin exam gaara? or did gaara become faster and reach kimimaro tier?

is lee without gates stronger than neji?

https://i2.mangapanda.com/naruto/196/naruto-3829.jpg

(kidoumaru > neji).

https://i3.mangapanda.com/naruto/198/naruto-1566945.jpg

(kidoumaru's confession)

https://i8.mangapanda.com/naruto/201/naruto-3913.jpg

(the sound four are scared of him, just look at tayuya)

The sound four individually are basically sasukes equals.

Kimimaro beat them into submission, and cant kill gaara, or just blitz him and gaaras defence speed is the same as when he couldn't even see sasuke or lee when they were moving?

@KingCrimson:

i will reply the rest later, so wait for me. thatwas inly for your first paragraph on gaara. do wait please.

@KingCrimson:

lol, you can't say he learned to control the chakra, the explosions just happen once in a while, besides that when he went kn1, there were no explosions.

https://i4.mangapanda.com/naruto/230/naruto-1567395.jpg

(no shockwaves, hence releasing more chakra doesn't cause shockwaves)

the first time he used kurama's chakra willingly, there wasn't a gust of wind, much less a strong breeze, but the second when he fight neji (in which naruto tells us he is as powerful as the first time) theres red chakra blowing things everywhere.

when naruto fought neji, the chakra was all over the place.

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/103/naruto-1566273.jpg

(neji was scared, he had seen something like lee but this was scary).

https://i9.mangapanda.com/naruto/103/naruto-1566275.jpg

(pushing wind about)

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/104/naruto-2131.jpg

(forms an aura around naruto) and he says its only as powerful as when he was training.

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/95/naruto-1566144.jpg

during training there was no chakra blowing things away.

https://i3.mangapanda.com/naruto/104/naruto-2130.jpg

(but against neji, there is.)

now you were talking about control, well to be as blunt as possible, i get the feeling you are arguing for the sake of it and are now grasping at straws, first, i never said hashirama could use kn1 level of chakra, thats insulting to his power. hashirama has as much chakra as bijuu mode naruto, he doesn't cause any shockwaves.

secondly, even if you tried to explain it (no explosion at other times) away with control, that logic fails, as in battle, once the fourth tail comes forth kurama takes control (this is how it was). i would ask wether kurama couldn't control his own chakra when he battled orochimaru after taking control, and whether he did training to control his own chakra (which he has been using for millennia).

did kurama not have control over his own chakra? was he emotional when he fought orochimaru, cause it's pain kurama claimed to be angry with.

https://i2.mangapanda.com/naruto/645/naruto-4430849.jpg

and yet during said battle kuramas chakra didn't run amok. but during negotiation with pain, he (kurama) had trouble controlling his temper and chakra flowed out. but when he was trying to kill pain, no shockwaves. unlike with orochimaru in kn1 he was causing shockwaves, in kn2 the same, in kn3 worse, by kn4 i'm pretty sure the map of that area had to be redrawn. And mind you before this time, he had already gotten pissed over gaara and gone kn1, kn2 without releasing any blasts, did naruto forget how to control himself when he met orochimaru.

it's not control, it happens when kishimoto wants it to. when he fought haku, it happened (blasts everywhere), he went kn0, but wasn't angry enough to be able to kill haku, heck when he saw haku's face, the rage and chakra vanished, and he went back to base.

against orochimaru in the chunin exam arc, he went kn0 and no shockwaves. hmmm....

he then got sealed, then unsealed... used the chakra is training and no shockwaves, then against neji (it was not enough chakra to reach kn0 levels) but there were shockwaves.

https://i9.mangapanda.com/naruto/103/naruto-1566275.jpg

in kn0, naruto's eyes become like that of a fox.

https://i1.mangapanda.com/naruto/104/naruto-2134.jpg

here that is not the case.

https://i1.mangapanda.com/naruto/104/naruto-2136.jpg

clearly this isn't kn0 tier. but the release of chakra beneath kn0 level caused a ruckus as chakra came pouring out. yet all this is pnly as powerful as when he trained, (by naruto's own words) meaning this state and the one he was in earlier are the same, regardless of the berserk chakra the second time.

the same goes for his kn0 between the battle against kimimaro and sasuke, you can only say that more chakra was released when he sprouted the first tail, and with this release there was no explosion whatsoever.

REGARDING YOUR POINT ON HE HADN'T RELEASED THI KIND OF CHAKRA BEFORE THIS POINT. Newsflash, against jiraiya naruto already used the fourth tail, he used it against orochimaru again (shock waves), but by thetime we get to pain there are non.

in the battle against kimimaro, naruto was holding nothing back.

https://i9.mangapanda.com/naruto/206/naruto-1567074.jpg

(he states his intentions clearly).

https://i2.mangapanda.com/naruto/203/naruto-1567008.jpg

(and attacks in greayer force than against sasuke)

but against sasuke... not so much.

https://i2.mangapanda.com/naruto/228/naruto-1567385.jpg

basically naruto is willing to kill kimimaro, but will only break sasukes legs to drag him home. not kill. i would say he is more enraged toward kimimaro than sasuke, cause with kimi he loses his cool and is willing to kill (crushing a person would kill them), but with sasuke he is calm enough to break just his bones and take him home).

now naruto definitely wanted pain dead and gave over to the nine tails, he said as much when he had to swallow gerotora, orochimaru (maybe, maybe not, he wanted to know where sasuke was).

and if you're to say the seal broke more just cause hewas mad at sasuke, i would also ask whether four tailed naruto is stronger than four tailed naruto. can a level of power be greater than itself.

its like me suddenly claiming that when naruto got angry with madara and caused a breeze by flexing chakra, he was more powerful than when he fought the biju.

Rage causes the tremors, it doesn't mean he becomes stronger, its not his rage that breaks the seal, its using more and more chakra, you have no proof naruto got more chakra when fighting sasuke than with kimimaro, theres only one thing you point to, and that has been rendered moot, shockwaves just means he is angry, his battle against pain proves this, his anger can't trigger the release of chakra beyond a certain point (if the seal hasn't broken to that level), tis for this reason that the sixth tail doesn't come oitin hisfight with orochimaru, but against pain (even though naruto isn't the one in control and he is just locked away in the mental plane, not seeing anuthing in the oitside world). Jiraiya said his rage triggered the release of more chakra, but based on evidence from the pain battle, thats not exactly true.

Yes naruto releases nine tails chakra when angry, but it is not his rage that breaks the seal leading to more being released.

explanation.

when he got angry against pain, he went kn4 instantly, at this point, naruto isn't concious of the oitside world, its all just kurama, kurama is the one seeing the outsideand fighting by himself with no input from naruto, so how is it that naruto triggers the release of chakra to bring out the sixth tail, when he isnt actually angry at the time but confused.

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/439/8

(confused).

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/439/9

(this isn't anger).

https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/439/10

(is it that kurama made him angry).

using the chakra breaks the seal gradually, making sure that the greaterthecrack the more power he can use.

against kimimaro he was using the kn0 form and battled on till he saw sasuke.

when he got stabbed, chakra burst forth and healed his wounds (like with neji when kurama restored his tenketsu), and then he fought using kn0.

QUESTION: why do yak believe kn0 is stronger than kn0, when every level of narutos power is defined already such that, kcm naruto isn't bm naruto no matter what and is triggered by the same level of chakra. just as kn0 is not kn1.

it would be lime me claiming that kn4 naruto that fought orochimaru is weaker or stronger than the kn4 that fought Jiaraiya, or appeared before Pain. completely illogical, as the number of tails is the same.

if naruto had more chakra it would have triggered a change. There was none.

and yes. the naruto that fought kimimaro is the same as the kn0 naruto that fought sasuke. And lee isn't kimimaro's equal in speed.

PROOF:

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/210/naruto-1567140.jpg

(he didn't take lee seriously until then. he was ready to beat him at that stage bit lee got a boost from being drunk. even guy dreaded this version of lee.

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/211/naruto-4111.jpg

(and so kimimaro being impressed, decided to take it up a notch).

https://i1.mangapanda.com/naruto/212/naruto-1567153.jpg

the result? he beat lee back to being sobber, and while standing on one spot, basically lee couldn't make him move an inch.

https://i7.mangapanda.com/naruto/212/naruto-1567149.jpg

(can you beat an equal while standing on a spot). could lee take on the sound four alone, kidoumaru nearly killed neji, someone lee lost to perpetually.

https://i1.mangapanda.com/naruto/212/naruto-1567155.jpg

(lee even tries with the first gate)

and got stomped.

https://i9.mangapanda.com/naruto/85/naruto-1774.jpg

https://i5.mangapanda.com/naruto/85/naruto-1775.jpg

the first gate breaks all limiters allowing you to beyond the limit of your normal speed. and still completely useless, cuz unlike before, kimimaro is serious about beating lee. now kimimaro did all this without using his curse seal, imagine just what it would be like if he used his curse seal stage one and fought lee, or stage two and fought lee all out. would lee survive it?

heck lee tried sneaking up on CS2 kimimaro and got swatted aside like a fly.

ergo... it isn't flawed, kn0 is kn0, if he hadmpre power ther would have been evidence by a chakra cloak or a tail maybe.

https://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/201/naruto-3910.jpg

(i could easily say naruto didn't cause booms because he split his chakra, but that would be redundant, using kagebunshin doesn't reduce your stats, it creates more of you in other words, more of kn0.)

and lee is no where on kimimaroskimimaro'sradar. he is fodder if kimimaro goes all out.

https://i5.mangapanda.com/naruto/201/naruto-3922.jpg

orochimaru's confidence in kimimaro's ability, is that if he had kimimaro when he fought the third, he would have won without losing his hands.

https://i9.mangapanda.com/naruto/202/naruto-1567014.jpg

even stating nothing konoha could send would stop kimimaro. orochimaru knows about the likes of kakashi.

https://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/217/naruto-1567229.jpg

orochimaru's strongest, servant, even kabuto doesn't believe himself on par with kimimaro.

https://i9.mangapanda.com/naruto/88/naruto-1831.jpg

mind you kabuto is about kakashi tier.

and all their speech about kimimaro points toward him being superior to any other in orochimaru's employ. now i would like to imagine this is prime kimimaro they are talking about, not sick kimimaro, the sickness being the only thing slowing him down.

https://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/201/naruto-3910.jpg

he admits this to tayuya.