Kal Kent vs Silver Surfer, Fallen One and Stardust

" I don't know alot about Kal but can he defend against an astral assault from Norrin ?? "

@hydrabob said:
 @vuviper:  well the quantum vision may make him able to make them touchable, but they unlike that other person are capable of extreme speed, so i doubt they would just stand there and let him trap all off them while they were intangible.

I think that it is only confirmed with Surfer since he has been seen the most and tested the most, but I think that they all would have a telepathic immunity since Fallen One IIRC has the most cosmic power of all the Heralds and Stardust is a Super Genius and can reform himself from anything.

I'm not saying that Kal isn't incredibly inteligent just don't think he is that there is as big a difference between him and the Heralds since they can process where they are going at 100s of times the speed of light

If quantum vision can hurt people or if he can hold them while the are moving at light speed, then he could probably, put his strength to use against them, but i think quantum vision affects people in other dimmesnsions not people that are intangible, this is really just the fact that i know nothing about that power.  

1. The ghost he trapped was a spirit possessing him, not a being in a different dimension
2. The ability he used to trap this ghost was NOT quantum vision

 @vuviper:  ok lets slow this down, the vision or whatever he used to trap the ghost, i don't think the ghost even knew what was going on so he couldn't fight it and was just captured by it. 

 I'm thinking that the heralds could keep moving and make it even more difficult for him to hit them with that type of vision, 

 kinda like how Superman was able to avoid Martians telepathy by moving incredibly fast, I think it has the same premise.  

Kal Kent Stomp there is no draining / THere is no Hope for the team.

kal kent ftw

Kal kent ftw

His feats are very impressive, but @vuviper, tell me how he resist to draining?

@czarny_samael666 said:

His feats are very impressive, but @vuviper, tell me how he resist to draining?

I don't know of any draining resistance feats, but with both the kinetic and power advantage it's not going to matter

Edit: Decided to expand on this a minute. I've shown that Kal is capable of moving, conservatively 20 billion times the speed of light. His processing speed allows him to calculate several billion simulations simultaneously. This ensures if nothing else, first strike. Likely this alone would clinch a victory as he can out-think and out maneuver all of them by lightyears. Power wise, his force vision was holding apart galaxies. His quantum vision destroyed an evolving weapon capable of molecular control and withstanding the force of a black hole. And even drained, his breath alone could put out a sun.

@czarny_samael666 said:

His feats are very impressive, but @vuviper, tell me how he resist to draining?

I don't know of any draining resistance feats, but with both the kinetic and power advantage it's not going to matter

Edit: Decided to expand on this a minute. I've shown that Kal is capable of moving, conservatively 20 billion times the speed of light. His processing speed allows him to calculate several billion simulations simultaneously. This ensures if nothing else, first strike. Likely this alone would clinch a victory as he can out-think and out maneuver all of them by lightyears. Power wise, his force vision was holding apart galaxies. His quantum vision destroyed an evolving weapon capable of molecular control and withstanding the force of a black hole. And even drained, his breath alone could put out a sun.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@vuviper said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

His feats are very impressive, but @vuviper, tell me how he resist to draining?

I don't know of any draining resistance feats, but with both the kinetic and power advantage it's not going to matter

Edit: Decided to expand on this a minute. I've shown that Kal is capable of moving, conservatively 20 billion times the speed of light. His processing speed allows him to calculate several billion simulations simultaneously. This ensures if nothing else, first strike. Likely this alone would clinch a victory as he can out-think and out maneuver all of them by lightyears. Power wise, his force vision was holding apart galaxies. His quantum vision destroyed an evolving weapon capable of molecular control and withstanding the force of a black hole. And even drained, his breath alone could put out a sun.

I can take that he one-shots them then.

Vuviper is overhyping things.

He claimed Superman is faster than heralds(because he was given wrong info that hearlds top speed is 100c). For exmaple Surfer moved lightyears per second which is above anything Superman did. And by the way i would like to see Superman traveling to Vega system feat and how long it took him since that's the only speed feat in which he could achive faster than 100c speed.

Now about Kal Kent

He has never hold apart galaxies. He tried to stop Gorilla galaxy from colliding with Milky Way but couldn't until Titano helped him.

he used all of his power(solar energy) in this vision blast

we see that he is unable to acomplish the feat

so we can say that he holded half of the galaxy with his entire power.

Now about the distance. Gorilla galaxy was hurling at Milky Way and Kal was flying towards it. All of the above happened at the edge of Milky Way. So he needed 1h to travel from Earth to the edge of Milky Way with speed boost from Jupiter. Now let's say it was the furthere edge. In this case he travelled 60 000lightyears in 1h or 16.67 lightyears per second. Surfer already has a feat light years per second. He also has a speed feat of crossing 500 000 lightyears per seconds. So he has similar and even better feat. Now if you dismissthe last feat as him going throuhg hyperspace than i'll just remind all of you that Surfer is faster than Nova Prime who can travel from Earth to kree galaxy in 12 minutes. That's crossing 160 000 lightyears in 12 minutes and is above any speed feat Kal did.

Also statement in Kal's favor would be that he can proces several billion simulations simultaneosly(stated by Flash). On the other hand Dr. Doom stated that Surfer's has enough power to destroy a galaxy(when he stole Surfer's powers for the first time) ? I'm just mentioning this and not suggesting it to be used.

About Kal's time punch. He was using Steel's Chronal Engine when he did that. Not with his own power - punching in air. so basilcy it isn't done with his power alone

Kal kent for sure has power like high end level herald. But he lacks:

- astral plane power

- soul manipulation powers like Surfer

- also psi powers on par with Surfer

- power of Board, and ability to be cut in pieces and survive

- ability to produce black holes with energy dicharge (how the hell will Kal counter this ? )

- ability to chanel the power of Big Crunch (who is he conutering this also ? )

As you see Surfer has great advantages over him at start. Not to mention that Cosmic Awarense will tell Surfer everything about Kal (Kal's ESP is similar to this so he also has good ability). And kal has one massive weakness. He needs 853rd century Super Sun (in which is Superman) in order for his power level to remain at peak. Even under regular yelow Sun he can die. That's great handicap. Unlike Kal Surfer doesn't have any weaknesses. So Surfer alone is enough to beat him. By powerscailing he should be stronger than Surfer. But speed is more or less the same and durability still goes in Surfer's favor thanks to actuall feats. Even if use 2008 Superman who withstood Supernova and was koed as bench mark (Kal kent was created earlier in 1999 and superman didn't have good feats back then) it still doesn't mean that he can tank black holes like Surfer and fight in them or to survive massive black hole created with Surfer.

And even if majority of you disagree about Surfer being enoug to tak him down adding Fallen One (powers over dark matter - nuff said) alone is what will ensure victory to team. With Stardust it's an easy win for heralds since Stardust is neergy being and Kal would need to concentrate in order to attack her/him. Which would leave him vurnable to Fallen One and Surfer.

@TheFallenOne: Are you really using Titano's assistance to argue that Kal would not one-shot them. First of all, Kal had said if he didn't stop the galaxy trillion would die, and it seems he stopped that from happening and only seemed worried after he stated he must not weaken. However, even assuming Titano is as strong as Kal and held half of it is Surfer really going to notice when he's hit with 3x10^44 tons instead of 6x10^44 tons?

Edit:UGH I think I messed up the calculation AGAIN. Since I've had no sleep and that was the third time I calculated that I'm going to stop trying

You also did not address the most important advantage which would be the processing speed

Kal stomps.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@TheFallenOne : That doesn't matter. In first shot, Kal can take all heralds. None of them were ever close to survive somthing that powerfull. The Fallen One was almost KO'd by Gas Giant explosion, Surfer's highest feats are star-level, Stardust's body was destroyed by beam that was made by Galactus' machine and it was only few levels above planet busting. And whole fight was on the Kal Kent side from the beggining, only way in which Surfer could take him down was drainning and TP, but Kal had his own TP feats and won't be drained in first move completly, which means he will have a chance to shoot at least one beam. I belive that if heralds would have more time, they would drain him, but they simply don't. If this would be, IDK... Surfer + Thor or some Thor with Power Cosmic, then ok, because Mjolnir can take on itself whatever Kal can throw at him, but Surfer simply will be taken out in the same moment, because even intangibility wouldn't help him. Look at this like Lord Mar-Vell vs. Surfer. I don't see a chance for Norrin there, as I currently don't see a chance for him here.

And her body evolved later. He was using all of his power just in order to stop the half of the galaxy. And it wasn't physical strength he was holding it by sheer willpower with his vision. Point is that his visions isn't FTL(it's actually based on light) and can easily be evaded by heralds. And Surfer can easily emit regular Sun radiation which will power Kal down (like it did when he was in 21st century). Furthere Surfer creates a black hole and than what ?@vuviper said:

@TheFallenOne: Are you really using Titano's assistance to argue that Kal would not one-shot them. First of all, Kal had said if he didn't stop the galaxy trillion would die, and it seems he stopped that from happening and only seemed worried after he stated he must not weaken. However, even assuming Titano is as strong as Kal and held half of it is Surfer really going to notice when he's hit with 3x10^44 tons instead of 6x10^44 tons?

Edit:UGH I think I messed up the calculation AGAIN. Since I've had no sleep and that was the third time I calculated that I'm going to stop trying

You also did not address the most important advantage which would be the processing speed

He wasn't suing physicla strength so your argument is of baseless. Also his vision isn't FTL and he would need prep of several seconds for something on that scale. That's more than enough time for heralds to come up with massive attacks.

Processing speed =/= actuall reaction. So there sin't point to discuss. Processing speed could only give him enhanced Midnighter - style multiple battle scenarios and outcomes, but heralds can counter that with their Power Cosmic which would tell them everything they need to know about Kal.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@TheFallenOne : That doesn't matter. In first shot, Kal can take all heralds. None of them were ever close to survive somthing that powerfull. The Fallen One was almost KO'd by Gas Giant explosion, Surfer's highest feats are star-level, Stardust's body was destroyed by beam that was made by Galactus' machine and it was only few levels above planet busting. And whole fight was on the Kal Kent side from the beggining, only way in which Surfer could take him down was drainning and TP, but Kal had his own TP feats and won't be drained in first move completly, which means he will have a chance to shoot at least one beam. I belive that if heralds would have more time, they would drain him, but they simply don't. If this would be, IDK... Surfer + Thor or some Thor with Power Cosmic, then ok, because Mjolnir can take on itself whatever Kal can throw at him, but Surfer simply will be taken out in the same moment, because even intangibility wouldn't help him. Look at this like Lord Mar-Vell vs. Surfer. I don't see a chance for Norrin there, as I currently don't see a chance for him here.

And her body evolved later. He was using all of his power just in order to stop the half of the galaxy. And it wasn't physical strength he was holding it by sheer willpower with his vision. Point is that his visions isn't FTL(it's actually based on light) and can easily be evaded by heralds. And Surfer can easily emit regular Sun radiation which will power Kal down (like it did when he was in 21st century). Furthere Surfer creates a black hole and than what ?

@czarny_samael666 said:

@TheFallenOne said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@TheFallenOne : That doesn't matter. In first shot, Kal can take all heralds. None of them were ever close to survive somthing that powerfull. The Fallen One was almost KO'd by Gas Giant explosion, Surfer's highest feats are star-level, Stardust's body was destroyed by beam that was made by Galactus' machine and it was only few levels above planet busting. And whole fight was on the Kal Kent side from the beggining, only way in which Surfer could take him down was drainning and TP, but Kal had his own TP feats and won't be drained in first move completly, which means he will have a chance to shoot at least one beam. I belive that if heralds would have more time, they would drain him, but they simply don't. If this would be, IDK... Surfer + Thor or some Thor with Power Cosmic, then ok, because Mjolnir can take on itself whatever Kal can throw at him, but Surfer simply will be taken out in the same moment, because even intangibility wouldn't help him. Look at this like Lord Mar-Vell vs. Surfer. I don't see a chance for Norrin there, as I currently don't see a chance for him here.

And her body evolved later. He was using all of his power just in order to stop the half of the galaxy. And it wasn't physical strength he was holding it by sheer willpower with his vision. Point is that his visions isn't FTL(it's actually based on light) and can easily be evaded by heralds. And Surfer can easily emit regular Sun radiation which will power Kal down (like it did when he was in 21st century). Furthere Surfer creates a black hole and than what ?

Yes, later. But in first touch she was destroyed, which means KO'd here. Fallen One is featless and Surfer can't take such a shot.
Also - it is a vision beam. He will want to destroy 3 opponents at once, so he will open his eyes very wide. There won't be place to run.

That's simply speculation of yours. Since he has never shown ability to fire a wide beam. His Force Vision is basily amped version of heat vision.

And even if we take that speculation as valid they would still be able to evade it no matter how wide it is. Since they are much faster than light, so they can go up down for example and he will miss them. Plus he would need at least several seconds to generate all of his power into that blast (look the scan), not to mention that he was travelling for 1h so he could gathereth energy for whole that 1h. See my point ? Heralds won't alow him that much of time. And his speed is comparable to Surfer's. Also proccesing of several billion simulations =/= reaction time. Sogiven his speed his reaction time should be comparable to Surfer's. Also he wasn't shown to speed blitz or to have greater reaction time than All Star or mainstream Superman.

@TheFallenOne:Your arguments are making less and less sense

He wasn't using physical strength, so what? Does it make a difference if Surfer gets pounded by 3x10^44 tons of force vision vs a punch?

If for some reason you desire a feat of physical strength, while nearly completely drained he was able to punch through the time barrier. Not really a quantifiable feat, but there you go.

I don't know why you assume his Force vision is not FTL. As you say, look at the scan. Do you see it taking years for his vision to reach the center of Gorilla Galaxy?

Power Cosmic does nothing to counter the ability to think many many times faster. He basically instantly has prep and with every microsecond that passes is able to reprep everytime. Also his 5th Dimensional Imp blood and evolved kryptionian heritage also gives him 17 sense which may "counter" cosmic awareness haha.

Are you trying to tell me that his Force Vision...which was applied on a galactic scale...to hold an entire galaxy....could not be used to simultaneously hit three people?

Amped up heat vision? You realize Superman has used heat vision on an entire planet right? Even if this baseless claim (yes that's how you use the word) were true it does little to help your arguement.

Not that this is necessary but:

Where is it taking him several seconds to power his blast?

You speak of speculation and then make another baseless claim that he was charging during his 1 hour flight? Well since he going away from his power source he only really gets weaker. But say he was charging to prep for the force vision (also likely indicating he was not going top speed since he was not only conserving energy, but actually spending it toward his future force vision). At a constant rate and starting from 0 (we're pretending his force vision would do no damage with no time to charge) he can charge his beam 8x10^40 tons/second which means in a picosecond he can charge up enough energy to unleash 8x10^28 tons of force. So still hitting them with the mass of 40 suns.

Anyway I don't know where you got the idea that they were at the edge of the milky way(if it was in comic please post scan), if gorilla galaxy was traveling toward the milky way, planets would be ripped out of orbit before they got anywhere close to edge to edge. Maybe I'll do the a calculation later, my mistake last time is that I assumed the Gorilla Galaxy started infinitely far away.

@vuviper said:

@TheFallenOne:Your arguments are making less and less sense

He wasn't using physical strength, so what? Does it make a difference if Surfer gets pounded by 3x10^44 tons of force vision vs a punch?

If for some reason you desire a feat of physical strength, while nearly completely drained he was able to punch through the time barrier. Not really a quantifiable feat, but there you go.

I don't know why you assume his Force vision is not FTL. As you say, look at the scan. Do you see it taking years for his vision to reach the center of Gorilla Galaxy?

Power Cosmic does nothing to counter the ability to think many many times faster. He basically instantly has prep and with every microsecond that passes is able to reprep everytime. Also his 5th Dimensional Imp blood and evolved kryptionian heritage also gives him 17 sense which may "counter" cosmic awareness haha.

Are you trying to tell me that his Force Vision...which was applied on a galactic scale...to hold an entire galaxy....could not be used to simultaneously hit three people?

Amped up heat vision? You realize Superman has used heat vision on an entire planet right? Even if this baseless claim (yes that's how you use the word) were true it does little to help your arguement.

Not that this is necessary but:

Where is it taking him several seconds to power his blast?

You speak of speculation and then make another baseless claim that he was charging during his 1 hour flight? Well since he going away from his power source he only really gets weaker. But say he was charging to prep for the force vision (also likely indicating he was not going top speed since he was not only conserving energy, but actually spending it toward his future force vision). At a constant rate and starting from 0 (we're pretending his force vision would do no damage with no time to charge) he can charge his beam 8x10^40 tons/second which means in a picosecond he can charge up enough energy to unleash 8x10^28 tons of force. So still hitting them with the mass of 40 suns.

Anyway I don't know where you got the idea that they were at the edge of the milky way(if it was in comic please post scan), if gorilla galaxy was traveling toward the milky way, planets would be ripped out of orbit before they got anywhere close to edge to edge. Maybe I'll do the a calculation later, my mistake last time is that I assumed the Gorilla Galaxy started infinitely far away.

It matters since force vision is unable to hurt Surfer or any other herald. And that amped force vision would basilcy act as unpenetrable barrier for any of heralds if it hits them. But it can't hit them since it's made of light and it can't be FTL. If it is FTL than post a scna confimring it.

I didn't state that Power Cosmic will revert his ESP (and vica-verse can't happen also). I just said that since ESP will tell Kal about his oponnets so will Power Comsic tell heralds about Kal (even more than ESP since it will reveal his weakness)

He punching through a time barrier was done with the help of Steel's Chronal Engine and he almost dies after acomplishing it (although at time of the punching he was greatly weakened). But he can't repeat that feat unless having the saidn device, so it's really not of any use.

As we see Force vision wasn't aplied on galactic scale it was concentrated and had a constant diameter. But since Superman was able to encompass entire surface of the planet with HV it's logical to say that Kal can do also but how much more we can't say since he never showed similar thing.

To end any furthere debate they have the same reaction time here is the scan

And note that if come with often used type of exuse " as far as we know he could do it in less time" i can aply the same logic to Surfer's reaction feat (do i need ot post it ? ). And again we will be on the same. Anyway Surfer acomplished his feat in less than nano-second (just presenting feat as actuall).

About Gorilla galaxy coming towards Milky Way

read this "blueshiting towards the milky way" aka "moving towards the milky way" if you have doubts about blueshifting indicating any movement than read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshift- especially part when they are mentioning Andromeda galaxy. This also explains who could his Force vision come to Gorilla galaxy. Also massive object as galaxy moving at collision curse (those words were mentioned in issue so i don't see how you couldn't know that G galaxy was heading towards the milky way) it would move massivly FTL just because of the sheer size. Take for example Tengen Toppa Guren laggan.

So i adressed all of your points.

P.S.Don't want to sound rude but in this post you didn't adressed any of points i made (black holes, soul manipulation, defence against dark matter...) expcet the multi-targeting (which i hadn't bring up to be honest but it was your joker for lack of wide HV scans) and such thing leads eithert to :

- flame war

- agree to disagree ending of debate

You're actually a very good debater and i really enjoyed debating with you since it was rather relaxing - there wasn't any harsh tone in your posts, and sorry if it sounded harsh, but i'm debating in several really hard threads and it's rather exosting + in order to finish as soon as i can i might sound little harsh unintentionally. But with similar post like this (not adressing my points at all) you're gonna waste your time and my time also. And it would leads us nowhere. If you want any Surfer's(heralds) scan just ask, also try posting scans of feats since they would clear any doubt. But since i'm very familiar with Kal kent and JLA 1 000 000 i ensure you he can't counter things i mentioned.

@TheFallenOne:

Why is force vision unable to hurt Surfer or any of the other heralds? Why do you say it is made of light? And in the scans you already posted it was shown to be FTL. It traveled at least the span of a galaxy (likely further because as you can see, you can actually see Gorilla Galaxy) so at least 100,000 lightyears nearly instantly.

Yes so cosmic awareness will tell the heralds info about Kal, and his 5th dimensional senses will tell him about the heralds. In that sense they are pretty even. But Kal also has the advantage of thinking much faster than any of them. He formulate the best strategy instantly in reaction to any move they make.

The time barrier thing isn't really important, it was just the only example of strength I had. I wasn't trying to argue that he'd punch through time in the fight or anything so I'm not sure why you have to mention he doesn't have the device with him. Unless you thought my strategy was he'd punch into the past and kill them all when they were babies

But it was applied on a galactic scale, else he would have have been able to hold back an entire galaxy. Right? If he decided to focus it to effect, say a single star sytem, he could obliterate the heralds. I still don't know why you are comparing it to heat vision though.

Thank you for the scan, because I didn't have that one. This actually shows him to be faster than the Surfer though, since in Surfer's he only had one more nanosecond to break out of his constraints. (As long as you posses the strength for it, not really something that would take very much time) for the scan you posted Kal claims he could 1)disable a weapon, 2)free the person trapped inside, and 3) prevent detonation all in a single nanosecond.

The scan is also a good show of how strong/fast he is. It states that he measures his strides in parsecs (3.26 lightyears!) and measure's his strength in stars. Stars plural. As in he has enough strength that the most convenient way to measure it is in the number of stars he'd be able to lift....

I know the galaxy is moving toward the milky way, that's the whole point of the catastrophe. What I was questioning is your claim that it was already at the edge of the milky way and hence Kal only had to fly to the edge of the milky way in that hour, but reading the old scan I had posted it does state he will be traveling to the galactic border but does not specify whether it is the border of Gorilla Galaxy or the Milky Way. Because he's using his Force Vision on Gorilla Galaxy (I think, right?) though I would venture to guess he's talking about Gorilla Galaxy.

I don't remember you posting to me about blackholes/soul manipulation/dark matter, I did glance at your posts toward czarny samael, that's why I responded to the multitargeting. But did not actually read through all of them. None of these things are really worth discussing though unless you can show that they don't just fall to an initial blast of force vision.

@#1ElderScrollsFan said:

Kal Kent

Kal Kent wins.

@vuviper: If you don't mind thought I would like Surfer's 1 lightyear/second and 500,000 lightyear/second feats for my record

Kal Kent wins.

I will never understand why people look at Kal like he is god or something. Anyways SS could and would probably take him alone. Put stardust and FO and you have a rape.

@jashro44 said:

@jeanroygrant: No offense but why would you bump this?

Boredom

@DrinkUrPruneJuice77 said:

I will never understand why people look at Kal like he is god or something. Anyways SS could and would probably take him alone. Put stardust and FO and you have a rape.

NO!!

I will never understand why people look at Kal like he is god or something. Anyways SS could and would probably take him alone. Put stardust and FO and you have a rape.

@jashro44said:

@DrinkUrPruneJuice77said:

I will never understand why people look at Kal like he is god or something. Anyways SS could and would probably take him alone. Put stardust and FO and you have a rape.

He held back a galaxy....

@jashro44 Point taken. But he cannot take on 3 heralds at the same time and as far as Im concerned the Surfer has done incredible feats as well like repelling a blast capable of destroying a planet.

:

Kal kent one shots them

Doesn't matter. That scenario works only 2/10 battles.

Kal wins an 8/10. I read Million and that's the one where he's depowered but he was still top-herald level AT LEAST. He punched through time when he was weak and his reaction and speed and thought were ridiculous.

He could analyze and think a hundred scenarios in a second. But his usual is a billion per second. THat's some crazy shit right there.

BTW he is more intelligent than Braniac 5. It says so in teh official DC page, DC wikia, and comicvine wiki. I don't know if this is completely accurate but that is impressive if it is true

i would add a few zeros to that :)

Kal Kent. 3 strikes, and they're out.

Could Kal Kent beat Wally West?

Kal stomps.

I have a hard time believing Kal could take all three at once.

Kal Kent stomps hard

kal in microsecond with unbelievable curbstomp

This is purely speculation but I thought the fallen one has time manipulation. Also, a black hole would drain the energy from kal

Stompage

Heralds win

Kal Kent curbstomps

Heralds steam roll

Kal kent low diff.

Probably Kal Kent.

Kal Kent still one-shots.