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#1 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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VS

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Death or KO.

Battle in Times Squarer starting 20 feet apart.

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#2 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36287 posts) - - Show Bio

Good fight, it's close. Very close.

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#3 Posted by Sy8000 (34768 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine with difficulty.

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#4 Posted by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine not having a spider sense could get him in trouble here, especially against Shooter's trick shots. Very close fight.

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#5 Posted by Killerwasp (17185 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine not having a spider sense could get him in trouble here, especially against Shooter's trick shots. Very close fight.

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5c3aa070510fb (427 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Kaine needs to abuse his stealth suit or give into the other if he is to win.

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#8 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Deadly serious. Jack has the powerset to give Kaine alot of trouble.

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#12 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Deadly serious. Jack has the powerset to give Kaine alot of trouble.

I... I... I dont know how to feel.

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I think this sums how I feel.

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#13 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by deactivated-579e79a09210d (3799 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine takes this.

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#15 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Edited by Patera_All (445 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn good fight. You could have made this a battle of coolness... Luther is anywhere from 1 ton (Jordan's statements) to 15 ton (ripping through steal on panel) but the ladder seems more believable given Luther's feats, and neither of these guys have too much difficulty taking his shots. That being said, Kaine is still comfortably above the higher end Luther. Both members of the team have precog, combine that with Jack's speed and Shooter's ridiculous anticipation and Kaine will get pretty tore up. But once he gets his hands on either, especially if he's serious, he can put them down a lot quicker than they can him. A seriously pissed off Kaine wins due to stats. Bullets and knives wont be enough to put him down, and even with precog, Kaine should still have the edge in speed, combined with a huge advantage in strength.

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#17 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@patera_all: Curious, what speed feats you say Kaine is faster than these?

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Strode and Jack moved so fast that human eyesight could not see them moving. This alone is over sonic in speed since that is the speed needed for a human size object at that range to move and be naked to human eyesight.

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Luther throws 6 bullets he collected at Shooter. When he throws them, he throws them fast enough to knock hit two bullets in mid air, Shooters guns out of his hands, and his knee caps. Shooter is also super fast like Strode. As seen in scans 7-8 where Shooter moves and targets a already in air Sniper Round, over mach three projectiles, with his own bullet, while not looking either. Scans 2-3 show Strode not taking a single bullet in art where the bullets fill the page. Scan 4 shows Luther using his hand while not even looking, slapping away dual gun fire from Shooter, swipping away with little effort the bullets from two guns at a time. Scan 5 shows Jack deflecting bullets off his knives not once, but twice at close range easy. Scan 6 shows Librarian able to casually turn his head sideways faster than a over mach 1 projectile inches from his head.

This alone is consistent over mach speed ability, and some feats super sonic.

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These scans we see drawn like Sonic Booms. Scan one second page has Jack pushing off the wall with three rings, lager to smaller forming with his speed gain. Scan two shows these rings a few more time when Luther pushes off the walls of the stairwell. Scan three shows again the air displacement kicking up large debris from Strode speed of his launching, and more sonic boom rings when he launches off the ceiling at the bottom of the page. Scan 4-6 show Gardener and Strode throwing punches with Sonic boom like rings where there fist are. All this is pretty clear and consistent drawing of Sonic boom rings that have no reason to be drawn there unless a sense of speed was trying to be applied. Other feats above support this speed.

Then there is the stated fact itself.

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This is the performance Shooter speed wise against Luther who Shooter matched in speed through a whole battle. Jack was superior to Luther by a small margin in speed.

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#18 Posted by Patera_All (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Great scans, and believe me I have read every Luther Strode book about forty times. I'm a huge fan.

When I consider speed feats in the Strode-verse I always have Justin Jordan's comparisons to Deathstroke in the back of my head. Even though JJ's explanation of his own character's strength seems to contradict and lowball them, I always thought DS's speed seemed like a good measuring stick; metahuman, too fast for most human beings, but not ridiculously above street level. Wolverine can fight as a blur too, but that doesnt mean he's nearly as quick as any of these characters.

That being said, those Shooter scan's are damn impressive. Honestly, I could see it going either way. I still give Kaine an edge in speed and strength, but healing factor will be huge for the Talented.

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#19 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Great scans, and believe me I have read every Luther Strode book about forty times. I'm a huge fan.

When I consider speed feats in the Strode-verse I always have Justin Jordan's comparisons to Deathstroke in the back of my head. Even though JJ's explanation of his own character's strength seems to contradict and lowball them, I always thought DS's speed seemed like a good measuring stick; metahuman, too fast for most human beings, but not ridiculously above street level. Wolverine can fight as a blur too, but that doesnt mean he's nearly as quick as any of these characters.

That being said, those Shooter scan's are damn impressive. Honestly, I could see it going either way. I still give Kaine an edge in speed and strength, but healing factor will be huge for the Talented.

Except, your basing the opinions of a interview about New 52 DS vs Jack yet the same guy and his artist state this.

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He lowballs his characters in one blog, but states on twitter with Moore that Luther is Karnak + Sabertooth + Spidey Sense. That Karnak + Spider man + Spider Man Sttrength is Jack!!!!

So by your own logic, Moore and Jordan state Jack is Spider Man with higher skill :/

So you should base on feats not what he says.

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#20 Edited by Patera_All (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Like I said when I first got on this thread, its a great fight, and kudos for coming up with it. There are a lot of fun variables and these are super cool subjects, but it seems like you already feel the team wins.

Pretty sure I understand what JJ and TM are getting at when they discuss the feel of their characters with fans. Jordan and Moore are much less concerned with set-in-stone concrete stats and tiers than we are when debating hypotheticals on The Vine. They're only concerned with the feel of their characters. I LOVE the "Sabretooth/Karnak/Spidey Sense/Spidey Strength" comments because it tells me exactly where they're drawing from, and the style of characters they're looking at. But to take those statements to their literal extreme, as if the creators are saying "my character has all of the abilities and attributes of any character that I compare them to" is to really miss the point and spirit of the comparisons in the first place.

The "feel" I get when reading the comics is that Luther and company are casual bullet timers with pretty insane combat speeds, and Luther can even close big gaps of space in a fraction of a second, like he did against Jack in the mall, and Shooter on the street. Feels pretty similar to Deathstroke, and I haven't seen anything to contradict that, so I like the comparison, and feel like it matches whats on panel. In terms of strength, pretty sure Luther is above Sabretooth, and below Spidey... But wait, Luther is compared to Sabretooth, whereas Jack is said to have "Spidey-Strength", does this mean Jack is stronger than Luther?... No, of course not. It just means that Jack has sinewy and wirey strength similar to Spider-Man, not that he's a literal 30 tonner.

Dude, I don't think we really disagree that much here. I just get the sense that Kaine is a bit above the team, and I'd bet JJ and TM would probably agree if they wrote that comic.

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#21 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@patera_all:

Like I said when I first got on this thread, its a great fight, and kudos for coming up with it. There are a lot of fun variables and these are super cool subjects, but it seems like you already feel the team wins.

I never said team wins. Just why you feel Scarlet Spider is faster which I disagree with.

Pretty sure I understand what JJ and TM are getting at when they discuss the feel of their characters with fans. Jordan and Moore are much less concerned with set-in-stone concrete stats and tiers than we are when debating hypotheticals on The Vine. They're only concerned with the feel of their characters. I LOVE the "Sabretooth/Karnak/Spidey Sense/Spidey Strength" comments because it tells me exactly where they're drawing from, and the style of characters they're looking at. But to take those statements to their literal extreme, as if the creators are saying "my character has all of the abilities and attributes of any character that I compare them to" is to really miss the point and spirit of the comparisons in the first place.

Yet here you are saying this mate.

I always have Justin Jordan's comparisons to Deathstroke in the back of my head. Even though JJ's explanation of his own character's strength seems to contradict and lowball them, I always thought DS's speed seemed like a good measuring stick; metahuman, too fast for most human beings, but not ridiculously above street level.

Hypocritical just now no? Not trying to be a dick, but you base speed on Jordans statement of Jack vs Deathstroke comment by Jordan.

The "feel" I get when reading the comics is that Luther and company are casual bullet timers with pretty insane combat speeds, and Luther can even close big gaps of space in a fraction of a second, like he did against Jack in the mall, and Shooter on the street. Feels pretty similar to Deathstroke, and I haven't seen anything to contradict that, so I like the comparison, and feel like it matches whats on panel. In terms of strength, pretty sure Luther is above Sabretooth, and below Spidey... But wait, Luther is compared to Sabretooth, whereas Jack is said to have "Spidey-Strength", does this mean Jack is stronger than Luther?... No, of course not. It just means that Jack has sinewy and wirey strength similar to Spider-Man, not that he's a literal 30 tonner.

DS has no Speed feats like these characters though. At all. Thats the thing I am arguing. What feats Kaine has that trumps the Strode teams?

Dude, I don't think we really disagree that much here. I just get the sense that Kaine is a bit above the team, and I'd bet JJ and TM would probably agree if they wrote that comic.

Maybe Jordan would write it that way, or maybe he write Luther losing a fight after 10 pages of hard fight. That is my thoughts. Anyway, I was just concern about the speed feats. nothing else.

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#22 Posted by Sy8000 (34768 posts) - - Show Bio

Jack definitely isn't soloing.

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#23 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Jack definitely isn't soloing.

What do you know! @laflux is one of the best daters of all time! Besides myself.

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#24 Posted by Sy8000 (34768 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

Jack definitely isn't soloing.

What do you know! @laflux is one of the best daters of all time! Besides myself.

How would you know if Laflux is a good dater? Is something going on I don't know about?

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#25 Edited by Patera_All (445 posts) - - Show Bio
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@sirfizzwhizz: as far as speed feats for Kaine

After saving his intended target from an already fired sniper shot, Kaine is able to close the distance between two buildings (at least a couple hundred yards as it appears in the first frame of the second pic) in the time of a few human thoughts. What's that, 4 or 5 seconds? Not even Luther could do this (and current Luther may be faster than Jack was, considering Shooter's speed, and that Luther is holding back during the fight.)

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Here he is icing Harvester, a speedster, with ease. Harvester was a blur to other members of the Hand, and too fast for highly trained ninja to keep up with, see or sense. This isn't even accounting for Kaine's stealth suit which will give him a huge advantage, considering that Petra was able to sneak up on Jack (yeah he was distracted, but she ain't quick) and split him down the middle.

Again, I still see this as close, but I can't imagine why you would be arguing one way or another since this is the thread that you created. Meh, still love the battle!

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#26 Posted by Patera_All (445 posts) - - Show Bio

The more I think about it, the more certain I am. Kaine, a guy who can one shot SpOck, and go toe-to-toe with Carnage and Venom can't win this fight? Sorry, but Jack is the Michelob Ultra version of Carnage, and Shooter, while impressive is still limited by the speed of his bullets, and they have NEVER been a concern for Kaine.

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#27 Posted by Eisenfauste (17366 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaine goes Other.

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#28 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: whoops, fudging IPhone let out secret out, awkward....

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#29 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@patera_all: none of those feats is sonic speed or even super sonic, except the sniper shot which Shoooter did better. Strode team also move to fast for humans to see, and Jack is still the fastest shown member.

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#30 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

Jack definitely isn't soloing.

I'll get back to you, as I need to go work, but I've put alot of thought into it. I know you've read up on the series, so I respect your opinion.

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#31 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:
@highaccuser said:

Jack definitely isn't soloing.

I'll get back to you, as I need to go work, but I've put alot of thought into it. I know you've read up on the series, so I respect your opinion.

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#32 Edited by Patera_All (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz said:

@patera_all: none of those feats is sonic speed or even super sonic, except the sniper shot which Shoooter did better. Strode team also move to fast for humans to see, and Jack is still the fastest shown member.

Oh c'mon bro, covering the distance that Kaine did in a few seconds is more impressive than anything anyone the Strode-verse has shown. Granted that we all know there is a difference between top-end speed and combat speed, but to act as if Kaine's feat isn't really impressive is a joke . Spidey powers outclass Strode powers in speed and strength. We're talking about a guy who gets the better of Carnage in combat, acting like that isn't impressive is being pretty obtuse.

And, as I pointed out earlier, Wolverine has been shown to be a blur to humans, and spider characters are too fast for him, so we're not talking about a high bar there.

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#33 Edited by Jacthripper (14386 posts) - - Show Bio

Team, and it's a hell of a fight.

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#34 Posted by Pierpat (5777 posts) - - Show Bio

Incredibly good and balanced thread, i see the duo winning a decent majority (7/10)
Kaine has the strenght to hurt the guys....but was he ever blablantly super-sonic on panel?
I'm pretty sure jack was.
Shooter may have a problem actually hurting and takking kaine, but jack is MVP and takes him down(not saying he can solo, but he's the one doing most of the work)

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#35 Edited by Patera_All (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat said:

Incredibly good and balanced thread, i see the duo winning a decent majority (7/10)

Kaine has the strenght to hurt the guys....but was he ever blablantly super-sonic on panel?

I'm pretty sure jack was.

Shooter may have a problem actually hurting and takking kaine, but jack is MVP and takes him down(not saying he can solo, but he's the one doing most of the work)

Jack is never shown to be super sonic, the idea that he is is extrapolated from him appearring as a blur, which is weak at best . If we were to name every character who has done this we would go on for days... Batman, Wolverine, Deathstroke, Sabretooth, Daredevil, EVERY spidey character; they all appear as blurs, but apparently that only makes the characters from Luther Strode-Verse super sonic, none of the others though. More than likely, its an artistic motif. Strode characters have much more impressive battle feats than appearing as "blurs" and to constanly cite that, is really to undersell them.

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#36 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@patera_all: wolverine matched speeds with Kaine, and you feat is still less than sonic for what Kaine did closing he distance :/ sry

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#37 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@patera_all: also Luther has shown sonic booms in his speeds and attacks. Yet Jack is faster than Strode, and Shooter matched.

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#38 Posted by Pierpat (5777 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat said:

Incredibly good and balanced thread, i see the duo winning a decent majority (7/10)

Kaine has the strenght to hurt the guys....but was he ever blablantly super-sonic on panel?

I'm pretty sure jack was.

Shooter may have a problem actually hurting and takking kaine, but jack is MVP and takes him down(not saying he can solo, but he's the one doing most of the work)

Jack is never shown to be super sonic, the idea that he is is extrapolated from him appearring as a blur, which is weak at best . If we were to name every character who has done this we would go on for days... Batman, Wolverine, Deathstroke, Sabretooth, Daredevil, EVERY spidey character; they all appear as blurs, but apparently that only makes the characters from Luther Strode-Verse super sonic, none of the others though. More than likely, its an artistic motif. Strode characters have much more impressive battle feats than appearing as "blurs" and to constanly cite that, is really to undersell them.

As @sirfizzwhizz already said, there's blur feats and blur feats.
Strode has feats that clearly show him as supersonic(the "dancing through the bullets" one in particular) and jack is consistently faster than him.

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#39 Posted by Sy8000 (34768 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:
@highaccuser said:

Jack definitely isn't soloing.

I'll get back to you, as I need to go work, but I've put alot of thought into it. I know you've read up on the series, so I respect your opinion.

*Cough cough*

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#40 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:
@highaccuser said:

Jack definitely isn't soloing.

I'll get back to you, as I need to go work, but I've put alot of thought into it. I know you've read up on the series, so I respect your opinion.

*Cough cough*

Yea, lets do this. I have to juggle uni and work you know? Anyway, why do you think Kaine beats Jack and we can go from there?

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#41 Posted by Sy8000 (34768 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

Yea, lets do this. I have to juggle uni and work you know? Anyway, why do you think Kaine beats Jack and we can go from there?

I don't know actually.

Anyway, Kaine beats Jack primarily because he's fast enough to keep up and has a massive strength advantage which Luther used to his advantage against Jack. He's resilient enough to tank a few slashes and has better blades (stingers) which can possibly disarm Jack if they cross weapons and leave him with no way of hurting Kaine. There's also Steal Suit which he'll use if he's in trouble enough and he's shown that he knows decapitation works for healers and is willing to use it.

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#42 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

Yea, lets do this. I have to juggle uni and work you know? Anyway, why do you think Kaine beats Jack and we can go from there?

I don't know actually.

Anyway, Kaine beats Jack primarily because he's fast enough to keep up and has a massive strength advantage which Luther used to his advantage against Jack. He's resilient enough to tank a few slashes and has better blades (stingers) which can possibly disarm Jack if they cross weapons and leave him with no way of hurting Kaine. There's also Steal Suit which he'll use if he's in trouble enough and he's shown that he knows decapitation works for healers and is willing to use it.

Lol fair enough :p

Ehhh, If I remember Luther's strength advantage wasn't too much of an advantage. Jack commented on his physical attributes, but mentioned his lack of skill being a disadvantage. And even with his Strength advantage, Jack was still strong enough to tackle him, snap his arm like a twig and so on and so forth. Of Course, Kaine is significantly stronger than Luther, but I don't think its going to to translate to a huge advantage, as Jack has been slammed into concrete making massive craters, had his neck snapped etc. Kaine would have to use his strength to literally tear him limb from limb, or decapitate him, and while Kaine can be brutal, he usually goes for the neck snap (which he used against Carnage and it didn't work, despite fighting Carnage before in his classic form and knowing his healing abilities) and fodder, which he used when teaming with Wolverine. He may also go with impalement to the chest or head, like he did to Wolverine in the staged fight and to Carnage and Candra, but that's really as far as he'll take it unless he's in other form, and those are injures I feel Jack could take for the most part.

I also disagree about Jack not being able to hurt Kaine without his knives though they do make things easier. Luther has a durability edge over Kaine. Bullets fired at close range got lodged in his pectorals from a pistol, very early in his career and he's got better at grabbing projectile objects as he's gotten more experienced, plus his skeletal muscle mass has increased significantly. That's not something Kaine could do. Yet Jack had no trouble breaking his arm with ease, and his second fight with Luther in the mall, was combining physical strikes with his knives. Furthermore, Jack has shown advanced knowledge of Pressure point knowledge, using them to blitz Luther into unconsciousness after breaking his arm. Pressure points tend to circumvent durability unless some strong healing factor is involved or there is a massive durability edge, and Luther's wasn't enough. Kaine, has inferior healing to Luther's, and he's essentially rocking Spider-Man's powerset from the Other, who was vulnerable to nerve strikes himself (Captain America was able to make him feel numb with a well placed strike, while Peter was wearing bulletproof armor no less, though it still hurt for him to be shot).

I think Kaine will be able to keep up with Jack, but in terms of combat speed, I think he is faster. In regards to Luther and Kaine, I think they are kinda close in speed. I think specifically, Kaine struggles with multiple opponents because of his lack of Spider-Sense (which he has mentioned on multiple times), but has a bit better one on one feats, such as blitzing an cocky Superior Spider-Man. Luther's abilities have been somewhat explained/retconned by Jordan but it doesn't really change much in terms of combat speed, it just forces you to pick which is more prevalent, his stats, or move reading abilities. However, I do think that Jack's skill is important, considering that Luther, while a brawler, is a pretty nifty one. He's been described as a excellent student on more than one ocassion by other users, and has utilized a variety of different blows and holds, even using a pressure point to put a victim of Jack out of his misery, yet Jack mocked him on his lack of finesse. At the very most, Kaine is on an equivalent level skill wise, so that will come into play IMHO.

As for the stealth suit, he tend to use it in stealth operations, when he is outnumbered, or a combination of the two. In one on one confrontations, or maybe even two on one confrontations, he neglects to use it. After all he didn't use it when fighting the Lobo's, and that was a life or death situation (In fact he actually died). Furthermore, Jack has an enhanced sense of smell, so could likely sniff him out.

Can Kaine win a Majority? Yes, but I also think Jack can, and I think that the two students of Cain are too much for him.

@sirfizzwhizz since you were waiting with baited breath :p

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#43 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by Sy8000 (34768 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

Ehhh, If I remember Luther's strength advantage wasn't too much of an advantage. Jack commented on his physical attributes, but mentioned his lack of skill being a disadvantage.

Luther managed to hold Jack in place even while pinning the Binder to the wall with his leg and even Luther's muscles were too tough for Jack to overpower.

And even with his Strength advantage, Jack was still strong enough to tackle him, snap his arm like a twig and so on and so forth.

Luther's durability mainly (IMO entirely) comes from healing which makes injuring him not that hard and the issue is just putting him down, which Jack failed to do.

Of Course, Kaine is significantly stronger than Luther, but I don't think its going to to translate to a huge advantage, as Jack has been slammed into concrete making massive craters, had his neck snapped etc.

I think Kaine has the striking feats to get passed that durability. He destroyed a car easily by just landing on it, punched Spider-Man to a rooftop and left him reeling due to his strength, stopped Kraven's heart with a single hit (this would probably work on Jack too) and punched his way out of a vulked out Agent Venom's grip.

Kaine would have to use his strength to literally tear him limb from limb, or decapitate him, and while Kaine can be brutal, he usually goes for the neck snap (which he used against Carnage and it didn't work, despite fighting Carnage before in his classic form and knowing his healing abilities) and fodder, which he used when teaming with Wolverine. He may also go with impalement to the chest or head, like he did to Wolverine in the staged fight and to Carnage and Candra, but that's really as far as he'll take it unless he's in other form, and those are injures I feel Jack could take for the most part.

Let's not forget when he decapitated that Hand ninja. And webbing is a viable if somewhat unlikely option. He's used on fodder and Salamander and managed to web two of SpOck's legs together so his accuracy isn't nonexistent.

I also disagree about Jack not being able to hurt Kaine without his knives though they do make things easier. Luther has a durability edge over Kaine. Bullets fired at close range got lodged in his pectorals from a pistol, very early in his career and he's got better at grabbing projectile objects as he's gotten more experienced, plus his skeletal muscle mass has increased significantly. That's not something Kaine could do.

As I said above, I feel like Luther's durability is mainly from healing and resisting bullets mainly comes from being able to catch them with his muscles before they get very far in. And these are mainly piercing resistance feats. I think Kaine has much better blunt force durability feats like crushing that car and tanking a lot of hits from Kraven while poisoned.

Yet Jack had no trouble breaking his arm with ease, and his second fight with Luther in the mall, was combining physical strikes with his knives. Furthermore, Jack has shown advanced knowledge of Pressure point knowledge, using them to blitz Luther into unconsciousness after breaking his arm. Pressure points tend to circumvent durability unless some strong healing factor is involved or there is a massive durability edge, and Luther's wasn't enough. Kaine, has inferior healing to Luther's, and he's essentially rocking Spider-Man's powerset from the Other, who was vulnerable to nerve strikes himself (Captain America was able to make him feel numb with a well placed strike, while Peter was wearing bulletproof armor no less, though it still hurt for him to be shot).

Jack didn't use pressure points until he already had Luther on the ground, more or less beaten. That doesn't speak much for his ability to apply them against fast opponents in combat and in fact he never did so to Luther previously even when Luther couldn't initially contend with his speed (which he managed to later during their second fight, where he clearly could considering he leaped behind Jack before Jack could react and visibly moved faster than him when he tried getting to Petra and Luther got to him first despite Jack having a head start).

I think Kaine will be able to keep up with Jack, but in terms of combat speed, I think he is faster. In regards to Luther and Kaine, I think they are kinda close in speed. I think specifically, Kaine struggles with multiple opponents because of his lack of Spider-Sense (which he has mentioned on multiple times), but has a bit better one on one feats, such as blitzing an cocky Superior Spider-Man. Luther's abilities have been somewhat explained/retconned by Jordan but it doesn't really change much in terms of combat speed, it just forces you to pick which is more prevalent, his stats, or move reading abilities.

I think speed is more even than anything. Aside from the feat you mentioned he also outsped Harvester who showed the same level of speed as Jack and unlike Luther he didn't get blown away by his speed in the first confrontation (Harvester got a couple hits before Kaine could react but that was mainly because of surprise). And one of Luther's most oft mentioned speed feats is running through a hail of bullets but Kaine did that in a more impressive way (Luther stayed out of the bullets range by darting back and forth a lot, Kaine stayed within the line of fire and avoided them all).

However, I do think that Jack's skill is important, considering that Luther, while a brawler, is a pretty nifty one. He's been described as a excellent student on more than one ocassion by other users, and has utilized a variety of different blows and holds, even using a pressure point to put a victim of Jack out of his misery, yet Jack mocked him on his lack of finesse. At the very most, Kaine is on an equivalent level skill wise, so that will come into play IMHO.

Jack is definitely more skilled and that will help but his skill hasn't really been tested on the level where he can take someone stronger than him by this kind of margin. And regarding Luther's use of pressure points I think he was just putting his finger through that man's skull which would require strength rather than skill, and shouldn't Hercules Method users be able to detect pressure points easily?

As for the stealth suit, he tend to use it in stealth operations, when he is outnumbered, or a combination of the two. In one on one confrontations, or maybe even two on one confrontations, he neglects to use it. After all he didn't use it when fighting the Lobo's, and that was a life or death situation (In fact he actually died). Furthermore, Jack has an enhanced sense of smell, so could likely sniff him out.

Fair enough regarding Kaine's use of the stealth suit but I think the fact that he did use it against a healer to decapitate them sneakily suggests he'd do so here. And having good smell isn't an automatic way around invisibility. That would require incredible senses Jack doesn't have, otherwise any normal dog would be able to sense invisible foes.

Can Kaine win a Majority? Yes, but I also think Jack can, and I think that the two students of Cain are too much for him.

I don't think Jack particularly can take a majority. Kaine just has much more going for him. And like you said Kaine uses stealth suit against groups so numbers might not be a disadvantage here.

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#45 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: I'll come back to this in a bit, nice reply though.

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#46 Posted by Sy8000 (34768 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: We're you expecting anything else? ;)

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#47 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: No, not really. You are a fellow Hall of Famer after all :)

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#48 Edited by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio
@highaccuser: Well I've been lazy but I might as well hit this while I've got downtime

Luther managed to hold Jack in place even while pinning the Binder to the wall with his leg and even Luther's muscles were too tough for Jack to overpower.

Jack was feigning injury though. And he did overpower his grip, by snapping his arm in two places, that was being used to choke-hold him. I might as well add that the feigning injury thing might work on Kaine, as he has no previous knowledge on Jack either

Luther's durability mainly (IMO entirely) comes from healing which makes injuring him not that hard and the issue is just putting him down, which Jack failed to do.

That's not true. Luther's durability was highlighted before his healing capabilities. For example, when he went on his first forage as a Superhero and a no name crook hurt his hand punching him. His healing increases his damage soak, but to say it comes from only his healing is stretching it. There is more to it, but it would be easier to mention that in responses to your other points.

@highaccuser said:

I think Kaine has the striking feats to get passed that durability. He destroyed a car easily by just landing on it, punched Spider-Man to a rooftop and left him reeling due to his strength, stopped Kraven's heart with a single hit (this would probably work on Jack too) and punched his way out of a vulked out Agent Venom's grip.

I think alot of those feats are replaceable by Luther to be honest. Not because he is as strong, but because he hits with more precision, as explained by Jordan with the breaking your knees with a few pounds of force in the right place analogy.

For example, the car feat has been replicated in a more emphatic fashion.

Followed by a 100ft leap for good measure. This also doubles up as another durability feat for Luther to counter what you said earlier.
Followed by a 100ft leap for good measure. This also doubles up as another durability feat for Luther to counter what you said earlier.

He also punched through and ripped out the Gardeners heart who I think is a more physically imposing figure than Kraven to be honest. One may say that because these are Legacy feats, that they are not applicable to Jack who he fought in Legend, but since Legacy takes place just after, I think its applicable (as he has no real chance to get better). Point being is Luther who is able to generate this types of feats didn't one shot Jack or anything like that, I think Kaine may face similiar problems.

As for the Venom feat, that's not exactly what happened. Venom had Kaine ensnared in his tendrils, and Kaine used his stingers to stab Venom in the throat to release him. He then punched Venom a few times to try to keep him down, but Venom then threw him off no worse for wear before Flash regained control of the symbiote. It would make some sense as Spider-Man has been restrained and defeated by only one of Eddie's Tendrils before, it wouldn't make sense for Kaine to power his way through the dozens of ones that where holding him as his edge over Spider-Man physically isn't that high

@highaccuser said:

As I said above, I feel like Luther's durability is mainly from healing and resisting bullets mainly comes from being able to catch them with his muscles before they get very far in. And these are mainly piercing resistance feats. I think Kaine has much better blunt force durability feats like crushing that car and tanking a lot of hits from Kraven while poisoned.

A good amount comes from his healing but alot of it is natural. As a reminder he had to learn to catch them with his muscles, and he mentioned this to Binder. When he first got shot, and he was alot weaker back then, and smaller, but the narration said that the bullets got lodged in his pectorals. Nothing was mentioned about him catching them. He only learnt to do that later. The other point I already attempted to address.

Jack didn't use pressure points until he already had Luther on the ground, more or less beaten. That doesn't speak much for his ability to apply them against fast opponents in combat and in fact he never did so to Luther previously even when Luther couldn't initially contend with his speed (which he managed to later during their second fight, where he clearly could considering he leaped behind Jack before Jack could react and visibly moved faster than him when he tried getting to Petra and Luther got to him first despite Jack having a head start).

Fair enough. My main point is that Jack can hurt Luther, without his knives or not. I also think its going to be harder for Kaine to disarm Jack of his arms as he can only really use his Stingers, rather than his entire skeletal muscle like Luther.

I think speed is more even than anything. Aside from the feat you mentioned he also outsped Harvester who showed the same level of speed as Jack and unlike Luther he didn't get blown away by his speed in the first confrontation (Harvester got a couple hits before Kaine could react but that was mainly because of surprise). And one of Luther's most oft mentioned speed feats is running through a hail of bullets but Kaine did that in a more impressive way (Luther stayed out of the bullets range by darting back and forth a lot, Kaine stayed within the line of fire and avoided them all).

I'd agree on the speed.

I didn't mention the Bullet feat because I know that in the first issue of Scarlet Spider, Kaine has that more impressive feat that you just mentioned. I honestly think that if Kaine can see target, then he has less of a problem. Its onmidirectional threats that cause him trouble, threats from all angles as he has no Spider-Sense or enhanced senses to spot them. I am aware of harvester and he is a speedster, but aside for momentarily blitzing Kaine, his speed feats are ambiguous (unless I know something you don't). Jack in addition for being too fast for Luther in thier first fight has

1. Blitzed Binder and taken off his head in one panel

2. Deflected a Bullet at point blank range from Petra

3. Slaughtered a whole mall full of hundreds of people and decorated there dying corpses in the short time it took for Luther and Petra to get there.

@highaccuser said:

Jack is definitely more skilled and that will help but his skill hasn't really been tested on the level where he can take someone stronger than him by this kind of margin. And regarding Luther's use of pressure points I think he was just putting his finger through that man's skull which would require strength rather than skill, and shouldn't Hercules Method users be able to detect pressure points easily?

Well I do think that Luther has the striking feats to compare, even if Kaine does hit harder, and unlike Luther, Kaine's damage soak is not as high as Luther's. As for the move, it is a legit pressure point move. Damian Wayne used the exact same move to knock out fodder IIRC and even said that if done incorrect, it can actually kill. Luther can probably kill someone by prodding his fingers through there skull, but the way it was done made it look like a precision kill, at least to me anyway. As for your final question it depends. Different users have different types of abilities. I think all should be able to detect weak points on a basic level (meat-vision), but some are more attuned to different attributes like speed (Jack), others to Marksmenship (Shooter, Binder to an extent), Strength (Gardener) while others like Luther are all rounders. I'd assume it would work in the same way for that, hence why some users have shown greater precision in Pressure points than others.

Let's not forget when he decapitated that Hand ninja. And webbing is a viable if somewhat unlikely option. He's used on fodder and Salamander and managed to web two of SpOck's legs together so his accuracy isn't nonexistent.

Yea, but the hand ninja's are fodder :P. All jokes aside, I not saying he won't go for headshots, but its always his go to move. If he feels he needs to, then by all means he'll go for it, but he tends to work himself up to that point. For example, if IIRC he stabbed a Hand Ninja in the stomach and threw one off a building before decaping one. Just like he lobotomized Carnage by cutting his brain after snapping his neck. Webbing is an option, but Kaine has always been more confrontational than Spider-Man. He was forced into using webbing in both situations as Salamander was literally on fire, and SpOck appendages provided an other avenue of attack. Jack presents none of those problems.

Fair enough regarding Kaine's use of the stealth suit but I think the fact that he did use it against a healer to decapitate them sneakily suggests he'd do so here. And having good smell isn't an automatic way around invisibility. That would require incredible senses Jack doesn't have, otherwise any normal dog would be able to sense invisible foes.

What feats of enhanced smell does Beast has apart from sniffing out Kaine, which he managed to do? I might be wrong, but all that's mentioned of his enhanced senses is in his bio. Yet not only did he sense Kaine, he was able to tackle him as well. Jack is not the only student of Cain to have enhanced senses. The Gardener was also able to smell Luther, Petra and Delilah coming IIRC.

I don't think Jack particularly can take a majority. Kaine just has much more going for him. And like you said Kaine uses stealth suit against groups so numbers might not be a disadvantage here.

Well, its something I have thought about for a while. I was even thinking about doing a CaV on it if I wasn't so busy. As for the final point, concerning both Jack and The Shooter, that's not exactly a large group. Kaine tend to use stealth when larger groups on enemies.

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#49 Posted by Sy8000 (34768 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: I will respond to this at some point but like you I may take time.

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#50 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: I will respond to this at some point but like you I may take time.

No problem :)