Kaguya vs Juudara and Ywach

Rules-

- No prep, no knowledge, random encounter

- Starts off in any of her dimensions

- Morals off for duo

- Win by death/ko/incap

- Almighty is activated before fight starts

Round 1: Kaguya is in character. Madara is pre God tree absorbed. Ywach is Soul King

Round 2: Kaguya is bloodlusted. Madara post God tree. Ywach can use stern powers and zanka no tachi

Who wins and why?

Callouts

Kaguya, duh.

Yhwach is honestly just in the way here and even though Kaguya vs Madara would be fun to watch for a while it's just inevitable that she outlasts him.

@cosmic_lantern: I don't see how Yhwach would be in the way. He just changes the future to the small chance Madara seals Kaguya. Yhwach can see all possibilities, so if their is a 1% chance Madara can beat Kaguya, Yhwach can probably make it happen.

@alextheboss: Madara doesn't have anything to seal her with, so that's not happening.

That's also an overestimation of Yhwach's ability, I feel.

@sophia89: Me giving him powers/making up powers that he doesn't have is against the rules

Me giving him powers that he has in his arsenal (but never used due to PIS) is not

It's like giving a character bloodlust or morals off, but in their series the character is normally a pacifist and wouldn't hurt a fly

@sophia89: It is in his arsenal... not using a power doesn't mean you don't have the power. He stole Zanka no tachi, meaning he had it in his possession, but never used it, for a reason that will probably never make sense.

All I'm saying is that the scenario changes and he can use the powers the author gave him, with every the feat and ability from the Quincy's transferring to him. I don't see how that breaks any specific rule

Not to mention, he was the original owner of the Quincy powers, but when he divided his soul among the Sternritter's he was distributing his original powers amongst them, allowing them to wield and cultivate it before absorbing it back. The powers were originally his, so it doesn't make sense why he would be incapable of using them.

All this is irrelevant to round 1 anyway

@marc_55:

Madara doesn't have anything to seal her with, so that's not happening.

His sealing techniques won't work? And you think he has a 0% chance to win even with Yhwach?

That's also an overestimation of Yhwach's ability, I feel.

I don't think so.

Yhwach's greatest drawback here is his lack of raw power, but Madara has him covered so all he has to do is mess with Kaguya in the future enough to where Madara can start using his superior intellect and skill to win. Not to mention every time Kaguya tries to do something Yhwach can just attack her through the future. While this won't cause lasting damage, it could be enough to make it so Madara can start overpowering her.

Juudara and Yhwach obviously.

@marc_55:

No, none of them are fit for her. Especially since he has none.

He's never shown any, bu the logically has some.

That's fine. Statements of power =/= showings of power. Yhwach's best feats with the Almighty are overpowering Ichigo, which he could do anyway, and reviving himself. Neither warrant him overwhelming someone like Kaguya, who >>>> him and Ichigo.

Well when he says his power is to alter the future and he backs up this statement by altering himself to be alive again after dying (pretty much one of the craziest thing you could do with that power), I think it's safe to say we should take his statments at face value.

Now I'm not saying he can alter the future in anyway he wants, I think he can just alter it with what power he already has. For example he altered the future so he hit Ichigo on the left side instead of the right, because he had the power to attack him on the left side an hurt him. He can't just decide to kill a person in the future above his pay grade, but since Madara is here I don't see why he couldn't alter the future in favor of Madara.

Obviously if Madara had a 0% chance anyway this wouldn't change anything. What I'm saying is if Madara does have a chance, Yhwach's power will help him.

That's not happening. She'll drain them both, and kill whichever decides to pop back up.

I don't really see her draining them that easily. Especially since Yhwach will see it coming.

That's also not happening. Him attacking Ichigo is understandable, he already outdid him in stats and basically everything else. There's no reason to assume he'll get that upper hand on someone that outdoes him in every way.

If Sakura can blind side Kaguya, I don't see how Yhwach's undetectable attacks through the future won't. Especially since they are far stronger.

Madara can be BFR'd and left to be dealt with after Yhwach is taken care of.

Madara can also just come right back can't he? That's the power of the rennegan, or was that only Sasuke's?

@marc_55: @alextheboss*just a side note*

Aizen's KS was casted on Ywach before Ywach activated the Almighty, so it's an event that happened in the past, therefore Ywach did not see it coming. His ability only allows him to alter events that happened in the future, things that haven't taken place yet. He can't change the past, or alter anything that's already happened, which is why he was powerless to it. That is not the case here, so I'm sure TP attacks wouldn't work

Sorry for the interruption...

carry on lol

@god_vulcan: Except, he specifically does alter the past, when he revives himself. So, that's not only wrong, but it's irrelevant to my overall point.

Yhwach and Madara win. Also kaguya isn't that bright or experienced battle wise imo

@marc_55: He knew he was going to die, and saw it before it happened. Why? Because he had the Almighty activated before he was killed

He did not have Almighty activated before KS, and has been under the influences ever since, I see no reason how or why he could have changed it. So no, it is not incorrect

But if it's beside your point then I didn't mean to derail you.

@marc_55: oh well then whatever floats your boat man

@marc_55:

The man couldn't even see through a basic TP ability, why would we take anything he says at face value? He's one of the most arrogant characters in the show.

If all the futures he is looking at are altered then he would have a problem. Also Aizen ended up losing pretty quickly. I agree he is extremely arrogant though.

What would be in Madara's favor?

The changes in the future. For example if Kaguya got sliced from behind in the future, that would be a change that would favor Madara.

Madara doesn't have a chance here, that's what I'm saying.

Ok, if you believe that, then yes, Yhwach doesn't do much here.

I don't see how that helps. Seeing it coming =/= being able to something about it.

Yhwach can avoid it. He can leave the area and pop up somewhere else.

And can you show a scan of the exact absorption move you are talking about?

The fact that you even said this is beyond me. You know better.

I know Sakura couldn't normally do it. Kaguya was distracted and Sakura couldn't do lasting damage anyways. What I'm saying is Kaguya will definitely be hit by attacks that can't be detected or avoided, and they will distract her.

Because he'll be dead long before he gets that chance.

And then he revives himself. He will be hard to put down. He needs to be sealed or something. And with Madara there that won't be easy. 1v1 Kaguya would just overwhelm him.

Stronger than the attacks she tanked with zero damage, unlikely.

didn't it brake a horn? Not that serious, but still.

This fight pretty much comes down to if Madara or Yhwach can somehow seal Kaguya. If not they lose.

Sorry, man. I don't know much about Bleach characters, but going strictly off of what I've heard, Ywach isn't on Kaguya or Juudara's level.

if we talk about NLF hax,, then Yhwach almighty can't affect SO6P user... and Juudara has zero chance to touch kaguya (kaguya more faster stronger and durable than Juudara, has better sage sensing, and has byakugan)...

and the only one way to defeat Kaguya is with sealing jutsu (Sun and Moon Sealing) but before that you must Extract All bijuu inside her body... plus Kaguya can just Absorb Juudara or Yhwach...

so...

Is Kaguya accepted here as Solar System level? For what I read on the Final Arc of the Bleach Manga, the author implied that Yhwach's overall reiatsu had and end goal similar to Kaguya's plan, destroy three worlds and create a new one, similar to Kaguya's ETSB, destroying a dimension and making a new one. Did I missed something?

@sophia89: Yhwach was shown doing it, or starting before he was shot from behind by an arrow. So his attack hadn't leave Soul Society, yet. Yes, but a Genjutsu with range follow by tree branches isn't that impressive, it didn't cause to much destruction either. We didn't get planetery revealed, just continental range. He didn't, but when the King died it was felt on Earth too. And it shouldn't be compare since they are both different beings with different methods.

I doubt Soul Society and Hueco Mundo are simple pocket dimensions, both have a moon, and Soul Society has a sun, we even saw stars and galaxies in the background when Gremmy throw Kenpachi into space. Even when Yoruichi explain to Ichigo the concept of dimensions, the world of the living and Soul Society were shown to be of the same size, compare to the other pocket dimensions. Meaning they are both universes in size. Confirming Rukia's explination early on of them been the same size, databook backs it up, and even a none-canon movie as well, not that it matters here. It was actually said, a lot of times, that he was goig to destroy them all, and create something out of their remains.

@thelocust619 Did you accidentally delete your comment? I can't see it anymore and I was going to reply. Anyway you and @sophia89 are basically saying the same thing so I'll reply to y'all in one go

The argument being made against me here is that I'm giving Ywach abilities that he doesn't have and has never displayed, which is against the rules. But I disagree, so i'll prove why.

First up is Zanka no tachi, Yamamoto's bankai. This is different from the Quincy powers, this is a weapon. Everyone saw him steal the weapon on panel, so no arguemnt can be made that he doesn't have it, therefore i'm not breaking any rules by saying he's allowed to use it.

The fact that he was wondering if he should use the Bankai to defeat Yama or not automatically disproves any theory or speculation that he can't use it. He just never did because he relied on his other powers more

Now let's get into the Quincy abilities. The core of this.

Ywach was the progenitor of the Quincy powers, all of the Stern abilities originally belonged to him. Ever since he was born, he's had the ability to distribute pieces of his soul and his power to other's. Nothing changed with the Quincy's. All the powers they obtained originally belonged to Ywach, he just gave it to them temporarily so the would improve it, and then when the time was ready he absorbed his powers back. It would not make sense for it not to be in his arsenal, nor would it make sense for him to be incapable of using. Granted, nothing in Bleach ever makes real sense anyway.

I quote the Bleach Wikia

Powers & Abilities

Soul Distribution Power (魂を分け与える力, Tamashī o wakeataeru Chikara): 'Yhwach was born with the innate ability to distribute a piece of his soul to another by being touched by them.^[119] Yhwach acquires power by bestowing an ability, allowing its wielder to cultivate it, and then taking it back.^[120]"

"Everything that had been absorbed by that portion of the soul now returned to the child"... that sentence alone is irrefutable proof that everything Ywach gives out he can take back, including all the abilities that came with his sould. The letters are just a more powerful way to individually bestow abilities.

Such is the case with Jugram Haschwalth as well as the other Sterns. It is not my problem that Ywach didn't use it, but he has it in his arsenal, and is capable of using both

Aren't top tier bleach characters like Yama and Yhwach anywhere between city level to country level?

@sophia89: He was stated to do it for over 30 chapters, he started doing it in one chapter before getting one shotted from behind. Are we reading the same thing?

Two feats that aren't planetary threat, we were only shown the known countries who all form a giant continent. We haven't seen the rest of the world in Naruto to assume it was a planetary threat, and even if we assume it was planetary, it didn't had destruction feats only range.

Hills sure if we pixel scale them, the author stated them to be mountains, tiny ones sure, in Naruto the mountains are bigger, i given them that, but slicing something in half doesn't equal vaporization, with a casual sword swing. And why are we talking about old feats again?

Kenpachi having hax to cut everything is pure fanfiction, quotes around the chapter pages are fan made, none are found in the original translation by Viz. It was pure DC, and yes Madara's meteor was bigger, but he needed Edo to regenerate since they were caught by it too. I'm not saying EoS madara can't tank them, but alive Madara couldn't. Unless, you want to prove it of course. Kenpachi did that casually while having his reiatsu supressed by his eyepatch.

Can you prove it was the entire planet, and not just the known countries?

I was talking about Naruto, there isn't planetary DC/AP feats, only continental range attacks. Yhwach was capable of doing it, by God's word. (Author) just how Kishi stated that Kaguya could do it too. Both have different methods. Just because Kaguya's attack was bigger doesn't mean anything at all. In Bleach Isshin explain quite well that Reiatsu control exist, (just like how Ki works in DBZ) otherwise, all Captains would he carrying swords the size of Skyscrapers.

Yeah, wrong. Karakura is a Town, not a city. It was only attached when they teleported it to SS during the winter war. Is on the human world, and like I said this was SK doing, not Yhwach's. So it shouldn't be compared.

Yes, HM is always dark, because it only has a moon, like I stated. The artificial sun Aizen created was inside the castle/Seireitei sized building. Barragan said that even stars rotten before his powers, so he could had destroy the sun in HM. I'm not saying that Barragan is star level. Lmaoo His power is hax, and it ages things, a star ages as well. But this is purely speculation, like most of your claims so far.

So because Naruto can survive in space, and Kenpachi can't, suddenly Naruto is Super Saiyan God level? Lmaoo That's like saying that because shinigami can breath underwater, and Naruto can't, they are stronger. Are we trolling now?

None of the statements you said are revelant to the story, is just your wishful thinking. Do you really believe that Naruto is that perfect and doesn't have the same problems? Not like Bleach, but it has its own problems too.

I'm not saying Yhwach is stronger than anyone here, i'm saying that he can hold his own againts this two in power. But that doesn't mean that he won't get blitz by Kaguya or Madara, both are faster than Yhwach, and he could get killed easily. And sealed away later, as he was shown to revive himself from reiatsu along.

I'm not debating here, you have right to your own opinion, you can believe that Sakura can solo the verse, that doesn't make it true, you can think that Bleach statements mean nothing or that the author debunked them, but that doesn't make it true until you prove it. Remember, saying that is like saying that you're above the author, which is in fact wrong.

"He can have Rukia say a hollow grande would need a powerful SR to beat it, but then goes and easily take down an arrancar, a vastly more powerful being. He can have Renji say he is as powerful as Aizen, but show Byakuya vastly more powerful than Renji. He can have Histaguya say that Vasto lorde are more powerful than captain, then have Nnoitra wipe out a colony of them." - You said.

This happens in all shounen manga, is called, *becoming stronger.*

P.S.

My english sucks, and I'm on my phone, so excuse my grammar.

Give madara six paths seal and he solos kaguya. But the fact that he cant seal her, he will eventually lose since kaguya cant die. ywach no much difference given the caliber of the other two powers.

Guys like Kenpachi are mountain to island for the meteor feat. you can scale other captains/sternritters to him for that. Ywach by feats was around there. By hype he could recreate destroy dimensions in a similar fashion to Kaguya so somewhere around potential planet lvl

@sophia89 Are you not satisfied with my reasoning?

@sophia89: How do you know Soul Society is a city in size? It could be a town, city block or a country. Where did you get that info from?

Also, Casual Kenpachi while having his power restricted. Do you know what AoE control is?

Visually the size is inconsistent, when calc'd it's universally almost larger than the way it looks.

I guess that would be more efficient, but not necessarily more fair. i doubt any of the mods have extensive knowledge on bleach to make the wisest possible decision

@god_vulcan: Where is the calc that puts Seireitei at City size?

lolno. Zaraki busting a meteor that would have destroyed something that is 10 days worth of a walk in diameter is way way higher than city level. Throw in Zanka no Tachi which could bust the entirety of Soul Society, Yhwach levitating huge fragments of soul society at high speed with TK and eventually killing all 3 dimensions....

Even if Yhwach can't output as much conventional DC as the other two, he has enough hax to prevent madara and himself from getting killed. At the absolute worst for the duo, it's a stalemate.

@cocoussybreaker: none. They're all larger. I calc'd it myself so I'll go look

Dude it's called scaling and/or ABC logic. Other characters who have stolen bankais have managed to do it, so why not Yhwach?

I heard it was country sized. @wf_mxyzptlk