Juggernaut vs. Xemnu

Not really. Only Jean and Betsy have consistently breached that helmet. Xavier has done it only once, with every other time him being blocked out completely. Emma has never breached Juggernaut and even Rachel with the Phoenix Force needed to take the helmet off to get to his mind.

Juggernaut’s helmet is pretty consistently blocking out telepaths that aren’t named Betsy or Jean.

I guess it depends really, current Juggs has a solid resistance to TP actually, it's his physicals that are lacking or rather they are fine if you look at his performance outside the one where he got stomped by Hulk. He might be weaker because he uses the Crimson Gem but has rejected Cyttorak himself, hard to say unless we see more of him.

This might have been true for some of his earlier showcases where he was established to be weaker than his prime (his prime being when he first visited Earth and took the whole thing over with a psi-wave) and needed TV to get his powers out to more people, but it's certainly not the case for a lot of his stuff, discounting his jobbing instances where he was just used as generic Sliver Age monster fodder.

@pyrofn: That’s still 3 people who have breached his psychic defences though. Betsy is below Xemnu, and Jean/Xavier are near his level.

Xemnu has also consistently affected Hulk, whose TP defences are normally tough to break through, including by the X-Men telepaths.

I’m not saying Xemnu would definitely be able to affect Juggernaut with TP, but it’s a possibility. He also has TK to take his helmet off. Even his physicals are good enough to compete with him

Onslaught, Bedlam, Orrgo, Professor X all have breached his defenses

professor x and onslaught would stomp xemnu telepathically just about any hightier x telepath could do what he does from what i have seen cain at his normal levels destroys him

@comic_book_fan: You picked like 2 of the best telepaths out there lol, even then Xavier has failed to TP Hulk on a few occasions, Xemnu actually hasn't, in fact he TP'd the same Hulk that resisted a TP user who called Xavier "average" by his standards and was able to easily take off the mental block Xavier placed on Sunspot.

Onslaught is a known reality warper. I don’t trust that he used only tp on Juggernaut.

Bedlam is not a telepath.

Orrgo is a reality warper.

Professor X has only done it once, which makes it an outlier.

xavier is the top telepath in marvel and onslaught is him amped by magneto's power

yeah but he wasn't able to control the hulk who resisted xavier and even then he only resisted xavier because of the risk the backlash would have done to everyone else emma frost has removed mental blocks placed by xavier but she by no means is on his level

No, that’s two and one outlier from Xavier. I don’t count outliers under normal circumstance.

Hulk has mental resistance. Not immunity. Juggernaut’s helmet is an immunity. Xemnu does not have a history of breaching immunities.

There is no evidence of the X-Men telepaths being unable to breach Xemnu. There is a statement about Colossonaut being the only one capable of physically engaging Xemnu, who is using Juggernaut’s powers.

I don’t mind saying Xemnu can use tk or his strength to wrench off the helmet, but I have severe issue with the statement of Xemnu breaching Juggernauts helmet based on other telepaths doing it, especially when he couldn’t do that himself for Colossus.

He did actually control Hulk and even erased Hulks memories. There is literally no mention of Hulk resisting Xavier because Xavier was afraid of the backlash, first off the backlash happened regardless and all the X-men got flooder, secondly Xavier himself literally says he can't overcome his rage.

Later on Emma confirms she and Xavier failed to TP him so other telepaths shouldn't even bother trying.

This isn't the only time Xavier has failed to TP him btw.

I am not talking about Emma Frost but Mentacle.

Reality warping isn't telepathy. Telepathy is one of Onslaught's primary powers. And he used them to create a mental block in Juggernaut's mind.

I am not sure what Bedlam you are talking about, but Bedlam from Exemplars is a powerful telepath.

Orrgo is also a powerful telepath. Really, your argument is weird. That's like saying that Galactus is not a telepath because he can warp reality. Or Dr. Strange. Or Nate Grey. Or Sentry. Or Thanos. Or Phoenix.

I know what Reality Warping is and I know what Onslaughts powerset is. Reality Warping gives you the capability of basically doing anything you want. You cannot expect me to believe Onsalught got past a helmet specifically made to keep Professor X’s telepathy out of Juggernaut’s head with just telepathy alone.

Okay. Yeah. I got the wrong Bedlam…….Okay, I found the right one you were talking about, though it took some digging.

That Bedlam came from the same story arc that Xavier breaches Juggernaut’s helmet, which is an outlier for Xavier. I am not regarding that as normal unless Bedlam were to do it again in her history under a different writer. Fact of the matter is that the writer did not regard Juggernaut’s mental defense as originally intended and later writers did not follow suit on this characterization.

No, it’s like saying someone like the Beyonder, Scarlet Witch, Magik, or Doctor Strange are telepath’s. They are not. Doctor Strange employs spell casting to fight psychics. Beyonder is a reality warper that doesn’t resort to telepathy, but can still do it. Scarlet Witch employs chaos magic to warp reality and has affected the minds of others, yet she gets defeated in psychic combat by a non-telepath. Magik has astral projected on more than one occasion, yet she cannot read minds like a telepath. Having psychic abilities does not automatically make you a telepath.

Orggo can project hypnotic waves and mental blasts, but he telepathy is not his main powerset. And I cannot find Orggo bypassing Juggernaut’s helmet, so I am gonna ask from you for a scan showing this.

Orrgo actually has TP powers so this ain't true etc. Reality Warping doesn't make you control the entire Earth.

@underfire47 said:

@comic_book_fan said:

@underfire47 said:

@comic_book_fan: You picked like 2 of the best telepaths out there lol, even then Xavier has failed to TP Hulk on a few occasions, Xemnu actually hasn't, in fact he TP'd the same Hulk that resisted a TP user who called Xavier "average" by his standards and was able to easily take off the mental block Xavier placed on Sunspot.

xavier is the top telepath in marvel and onslaught is him amped by magneto's power

yeah but he wasn't able to control the hulk who resisted xavier and even then he only resisted xavier because of the risk the backlash would have done to everyone else emma frost has removed mental blocks placed by xavier but she by no means is on his level

He did actually control Hulk and even erased Hulks memories. There is literally no mention of Hulk resisting Xavier because Xavier was afraid of the backlash, first off the backlash happened regardless and all the X-men got flooder, secondly Xavier himself literally says he can't overcome his rage.

Later on Emma confirms she and Xavier failed to TP him so other telepaths shouldn't even bother trying.

This isn't the only time Xavier has failed to TP him btw.

I am not talking about Emma Frost but Mentacle.

i want to see the other times Xavier faild to effect hulk that your referring too

and hulk is hurting from the effect but xavier knows that the alot of the x-men would die before hulk went down to it and xavier was like this is my fault no need for anyone else to die because of a decision i made he could have beaten hulk this way but there would have been innocent causalities and he didn't want that also this fight between juggernaut and xemnu was decided when colossus juggernaut who is weaker in strength durability and telepathic defense was able to take him on old cain before he turned face would have plowed right through him heck this was shown in this very x-men story because ww hulk would rip xemnu in half and cain when he went full juggernaut practically stalemated him until hulk figured out how to use his powers against him

also why couldn't wolverine fight xemnu he has a strong telepathic resistance and can tank good enough i think he probably could have ripped xemnu up

Because Xemnu isnt an earthling Telepath.

@koays: Is this true?

”onslaught didn't have reality warping at the time he beat juggernaut .”

@comic_book_fan: “juggernaut also wasn't wearing his helmet when onslaught got him”

God dang it. I really need to get PsiViners to do the Onslaught RT. My memory is not reliable.

I mean as his main power. Like how Apocalypse isn’t a telepath, even though he has it.

The proper wording I should have used was: “Not a proper telepath”. Or something along the lines.

Reality Warping can make you do anything, as far as I know.

What does not being an earthling telepathy change?

@pyrofn: That's his main power, sure, but that doesn't then disqualify him from being a telepath, which he most definitely is.

I agree on the technicality. I won’t disregard him as a telepath anymore, though I ain’t describing him as such either.

Back on-topic, do you know of a time Orggo has telepathically assaulted Juggernaut?

Based on what I know, Xemnu should win. His TP is pretty good and Juggernaut isn't always consistent against TP.

I dont know much about Xemnu but I have heard that he fears taking a beating from Hulk. Juggernaut is around that level so I assume he beats him here unless he can get to him trough TP

I would say the only time that was a possibility was when he TP'd the entire planet back in Defenders. By proxy yes.

He's not Hulk level stats but he can take a beating from Hulk, it's not like he's gonna be fodder to someone who's wildly below him either.

So no on-panel showing of Juggernaut being controlled?

No

Xemnu.

@pyrofn: No its not. Unless he telepathically trapped Juggernaut inside the gem of Cyttorak.

Wrong, Orrgo has indeed mind-controlled Juggernaut ON-PANEL along with a couple of dozens of other supervillains simultaneously

https://vk.com/topic?act=browse_images&id=-107616061_5975

@alonis3612: That's not TP'ing anything, lol. All Orrgo does there is bring them to his timeline. Great comprehension here.

Is that SO?

"Geat comprehension here."- ProfessorRespect

@alonis3612: I'm not so sure that's the case here. The fight you're bringing up is them "under his thrall" is a wildly different fight to the one you are referencing later on when Orrgo has already taken over the world. These are two different instances, naturally, so you might want to show which one you are actually talking about.

What do you mean WHICH one I am talking about? I literally posted a link to all of the scans that are necessary.

You didn't "post" them, you put out a link without any citations. That's not how citating works etc.

This isn't school and I am not required to give the actual comic book name unless I am asked for it. Now stop trolling and concede.

And no I did post a link. I never said I am citing something nor did I claim that that's how citation works.

You are if it's supposed to be taken seriously, otherwise you just look like a guy who skimmed his Reddit RT and took the scans from there. I get if you don't have the context of Orrgo's run in Defenders or how the fights happened in sequence but you don't need to act like you haven't in the first place.

In an argument where I am trusting a random person not putting citations over the person who literally put together Orggo’s RT here on comicvine, I am gonna trust the RT Maker who took the time to go through every comic issue for feats.

Good point. I dont even know why I said that.

@alonis3612 said:

@professorrespect said:

@alonis3612: That's not TP'ing anything, lol. All Orrgo does there is bring them to his timeline. Great comprehension here.

Is that SO?

"Geat comprehension here."- ProfessorRespect

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@vinervvvvv: Bruh that's Tom Cruise, the one who plays the main role in Mission Impossible