• 72 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for decaf_wizard
#1 Posted by decaf_wizard (16835 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

JL ROSTER

  • Zatanna, Dr Fate, Superman, Flash (Wally West), Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan and Cyborg

THE RULES

  • TEAM ONE HAS TEN MINUTES TO KILL, DEPOWER, KO or OTHERWISE INCAPACITATE JUGGERNAUT. NO BFR. JUGGERNAUT WILL NOT ATTACK BACK BUT CAN DEFEND HIMSELF WITH ABILITIES

  • In character, morals off

  • Battle takes place on an indestructible moon

  • JL is composite pre/new 52. Juggy is current
Avatar image for renchode
#2 Posted by RenChode (89 posts) - - Show Bio

If Juggernaut has maintained the forcefields he has since classic days they aren't going to get through those in just 10 minutes.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for keyboardthug9
#3 Posted by KeyboardThug9 (462 posts) - - Show Bio

composite post crisis / new 52 jl hahaha this is a stomp goodbye juggernaut

Avatar image for renchode
#4 Edited by RenChode (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@keyboardthug9 said:

composite post crisis / new 52 jl hahaha this is a stomp goodbye juggernaut

This isn't composite of all JLA members ever, there's no Phantom Stranger and such. Just the roster listed in the OP being allowed Post-Crisis/N52 Feats.

Avatar image for ready_4_madness
#5 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (15379 posts) - - Show Bio

JL can definitely beat him within 10 mins, I have 0 doubt with that.

Avatar image for renchode
#6 Posted by RenChode (89 posts) - - Show Bio

JL can definitely beat him within 10 mins, I have 0 doubt with that.

Even with Juggs actively protecting himself with God-Blast tanking protection?

Avatar image for keyboardthug9
#7 Posted by KeyboardThug9 (462 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchode said:
@keyboardthug9 said:

composite post crisis / new 52 jl hahaha this is a stomp goodbye juggernaut

This isn't composite of all JLA members ever, there's no Phantom Stranger and such. Just the roster listed in the OP being allowed Post-Crisis/N52 Feats.

Never said that it was the entire jla. Fate solos here.

Avatar image for renchode
#8 Edited by RenChode (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@keyboardthug9 said:
@renchode said:
@keyboardthug9 said:

composite post crisis / new 52 jl hahaha this is a stomp goodbye juggernaut

This isn't composite of all JLA members ever, there's no Phantom Stranger and such. Just the roster listed in the OP being allowed Post-Crisis/N52 Feats.

Never said that it was the entire jla. Fate solos here.

With what feats? Juggs doesn't even need to attack Fate, just shrinks him.

No Caption Provided

That and Fate can't harm if he decides to use forcefields without Nabu feats.

Avatar image for king_majestros
#9 Posted by King_Majestros (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchode said:
@keyboardthug9 said:

composite post crisis / new 52 jl hahaha this is a stomp goodbye juggernaut

This isn't composite of all JLA members ever, there's no Phantom Stranger and such. Just the roster listed in the OP being allowed Post-Crisis/N52 Feats.

Never said that it was the entire jla. Fate solos here.

Proof that he'd solo?

Avatar image for keyboardthug9
#10 Posted by KeyboardThug9 (462 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchode said:
@keyboardthug9 said:
@renchode said:
@keyboardthug9 said:

composite post crisis / new 52 jl hahaha this is a stomp goodbye juggernaut

This isn't composite of all JLA members ever, there's no Phantom Stranger and such. Just the roster listed in the OP being allowed Post-Crisis/N52 Feats.

Never said that it was the entire jla. Fate solos here.

With what feats? Juggs doesn't even need to attack Fate, just shrinks him.

No Caption Provided

That and Fate can't harm if he decides to use forcefields without Nabu feats.

Composite fate = nabu

Avatar image for renchode
#11 Posted by RenChode (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchode said:
@keyboardthug9 said:
@renchode said:
@keyboardthug9 said:

composite post crisis / new 52 jl hahaha this is a stomp goodbye juggernaut

This isn't composite of all JLA members ever, there's no Phantom Stranger and such. Just the roster listed in the OP being allowed Post-Crisis/N52 Feats.

Never said that it was the entire jla. Fate solos here.

With what feats? Juggs doesn't even need to attack Fate, just shrinks him.

No Caption Provided

That and Fate can't harm if he decides to use forcefields without Nabu feats.

Composite fate = nabu

No mate, it's composite being allowed N52/Pre-52 Feats, not all amped feats.

Let's ask the OP @decaf_wizard

Avatar image for deactivated-599632ff76068
#12 Posted by deactivated-599632ff76068 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess Juggs.

Avatar image for decaf_wizard
#13 Edited by decaf_wizard (16835 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchode said:
@keyboardthug9 said:
@renchode said:
@keyboardthug9 said:
@renchode said:
@keyboardthug9 said:

composite post crisis / new 52 jl hahaha this is a stomp goodbye juggernaut

This isn't composite of all JLA members ever, there's no Phantom Stranger and such. Just the roster listed in the OP being allowed Post-Crisis/N52 Feats.

Never said that it was the entire jla. Fate solos here.

With what feats? Juggs doesn't even need to attack Fate, just shrinks him.

No Caption Provided

That and Fate can't harm if he decides to use forcefields without Nabu feats.

Composite fate = nabu

No mate, it's composite being allowed N52/Pre-52 Feats, not all amped feats.

Let's ask the OP @decaf_wizard

Yes, I mean all non amped pre and post 52 showings. Nabu is not allowed here

Avatar image for khael
#14 Edited by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

Moral off? Time travel GG.

Edit: Wait, in character but morals off? How does that even work?

Avatar image for krleavenger
#15 Posted by KrleAvenger (26251 posts) - - Show Bio

Incapacitate him? KO him? Sure. Kill him? Depower him? Not a chance.

Online
Avatar image for decaf_wizard
#16 Posted by decaf_wizard (16835 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:

Moral off? Time travel GG.

Edit: Wait, in character but morals off? How does that even work?

Basically, they still use abilities in the way that they would in character, but willing to kill

Like (for example) under such a scenario Juggy wouldn't hesitate to kill somebody, even friends, but he wouldn't spam magic

Avatar image for blackpantherisb
#17 Posted by blackpantherisb (6951 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman could prolly KO him alone.

Avatar image for pipxeroth
#18 Posted by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash might be able to phase through his forcefield, but otherwise I don't see them putting him down.

Avatar image for jagernutt
#19 Posted by jagernutt (16215 posts) - - Show Bio

Without high level magic nobody can put him down.

Avatar image for 20damon
#20 Posted by 20damon (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

Juggernaut get stomped.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for pipxeroth
#21 Posted by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon: Hulk didn't even KO him there, but either way it's still a very low showing for Juggernaut to be winded by a punch from Professor Hulk of all people.

Avatar image for juiceboks
#22 Posted by juiceboks (24739 posts) - - Show Bio

Zatanna might solo but a composite Fate most definitely does. Inza alone has drained the energy out of Egyptian Gods and manipulated the energy of a Lord of Order.

Moderator
Avatar image for decaf_wizard
#23 Posted by decaf_wizard (16835 posts) - - Show Bio

Zatanna might solo but a composite Fate most definitely does. Inza alone has drained the energy out of Egyptian Gods and manipulated the energy of a Lord of Order.

This is composite unamped. Basically standard fate/zatana but New-52 and Pre-52

Avatar image for 20damon
#24 Edited by 20damon (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

@pipxeroth said:

@20damon: Hulk didn't even KO him there, but either way it's still a very low showing for Juggernaut to be winded by a punch from Professor Hulk of all people.

Thing with Juggy is that his damage resistance is what makes him so strong, not his durability. Those who can pass his damage resistance seem to stomp him every time.

You also have War Hulk completely destroying him. Juggernaut isn't as invulnerable as people make him out to be even if he is incredibly durable.

Avatar image for juiceboks
#25 Posted by juiceboks (24739 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
Avatar image for decaf_wizard
#26 Edited by decaf_wizard (16835 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for pipxeroth
#27 Edited by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

Thing with Juggy is that his damage resistance is what makes him so strong, not his durability. Those who can pass his damage resistance seem to stomp him every time.

What do you mean? Damage resistance is literally the same thing as durability. The only characters who what you're talking about would apply to are extremely high level magic users that would be able to drop his force field, which aside from that one instance with classic Thor pulling another power out of his ass, would require them to somehow overpower Cyttorak. But even when his force field was dropped, he tanked a full minute of Thor going all-out with his punches on him, and still didn't drop.

You also have War Hulk completely destroying him.

And? He was amped by celestial tech, how is this at all relevant? Besides, War didn't even knock him out, he just punched him into a wall then put his sword up against him and threatened to decapitate him. Juggy got up fine after Hulk left.

Juggernaut isn't as invulnerable as people make him out to be even if he is incredibly durable.

Sure he doesn't have "true" invulnerability, really nothing in Marvel does. But his durability is consistently way too high for a simple gut-punch from Professor Hulk to be hurting him like that. Juggy has consistently no-sold the strongest attacks from a non holding-back Thor (including his frickin godblast), hell Colossus broke both his hands while Juggs was standing completely still last time they fought. I mean you just need to look at how he performed against Green Scar - the same guy that was dropping Hercules-level characters in 3 hits could barely hurt Cain and resorted to BFRing him. Do you seriously think it makes sense that a character who consistently no-sells hits from characters stronger than Savage Hulk would be dropped in one punch by a weaker incarnation?

Avatar image for 20damon
#28 Posted by 20damon (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

Thing with Juggy is that his damage resistance is what makes him so strong, not his durability. Those who can pass his damage resistance seem to stomp him every time.

What do you mean? Damage resistance is literally the same thing as durability. The only characters who what you're talking about would apply to are extremely high level magic users that would be able to drop his force field, which aside from that one instance with classic Thor pulling another power out of his ass, would require them to somehow overpower Cyttorak. But even when his force field was dropped, he tanked a full minute of Thor going all-out with his punches on him, and still didn't drop.

You also have War Hulk completely destroying him.

And? He was amped by celestial tech, how is this at all relevant? Besides, War didn't even knock him out, he just punched him into a wall then put his sword up against him and threatened to decapitate him. Juggy got up fine after Hulk left.

Juggernaut isn't as invulnerable as people make him out to be even if he is incredibly durable.

Sure he doesn't have "true" invulnerability, really nothing in Marvel does. But his durability is consistently way too high for a simple gut-punch from Professor Hulk to be hurting him like that. Juggy has consistently no-sold the strongest attacks from a non holding-back Thor (including his frickin godblast), hell Colossus broke both his hands while Juggs was standing completely still last time they fought. I mean you just need to look at how he performed against Green Scar - the same guy that was dropping Hercules-level characters in 3 hits could barely hurt Cain and resorted to BFRing him. Do you seriously think it makes sense that a character who consistently no-sells hits from characters stronger than Savage Hulk would be dropped in one punch by a weaker incarnation?

I don't. I also know very well about Hulk's amp as War Hulk. My point is that he is NOT invulnerable like so many people make him out to be.

And no, damage resistance is not the same as durability. Imagine a weak little bastard in a thick suit of armor. He's not durable but has a level of protection. Anyone who would get through that armor would destroy him, and that seems to be the case with Juggy, anyone who's actually able to damage him makes him to begin with look like a chump.

Avatar image for barnstormer
#29 Posted by barnstormer (115 posts) - - Show Bio

JLA stomp

Avatar image for pipxeroth
#30 Posted by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

I don't. I also know very well about Hulk's amp as War Hulk. My point is that he is NOT invulnerable like so many people make him out to be.

Ok, but why bring him up? War Hulk was physically much stronger than Professor Hulk or anyone on the Justice League, so it has really no relevance to the discussion at hand.

And no, damage resistance is not the same as durability. Imagine a weak little bastard in a thick suit of armor. He's not durable but has a level of protection.

It's literally the exact same thing from a practical perspective. Someone who can take 50 punches before dropping is more durable than someone who can only take 5 before dropping. Your comment is basically saying that Iron Man has no such thing as durability because it's all from his armour.

Anyone who would get through that armor would destroy him, and that seems to be the case with Juggy, anyone who's actually able to damage him makes him to begin with look like a chump.

No... his force field has only been explicitly drained/bypassed twice to my knowledge, once by Classic Thor and once by a hell lord. Both characters failed to seriously harm him (well the latter vaporised him to a skeleton, but Juggy kept fighting regardless and once he got his powers back healed instantly). Do you not think that perhaps the only times you see Juggy being seriously hurt he is being made to look like a chump, is because those moments are extremely inconsistent and poorly written?

Plus, Professor Hulk didn't bypass his force field or anything. He just punched him in the gut and somehow winded Juggs. It was a low showing, simple as that.

Avatar image for 20damon
#31 Posted by 20damon (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

I don't. I also know very well about Hulk's amp as War Hulk. My point is that he is NOT invulnerable like so many people make him out to be.

Ok, but why bring him up? War Hulk was physically much stronger than Professor Hulk or anyone on the Justice League, so it has really no relevance to the discussion at hand.

And no, damage resistance is not the same as durability. Imagine a weak little bastard in a thick suit of armor. He's not durable but has a level of protection.

It's literally the exact same thing from a practical perspective. Someone who can take 50 punches before dropping is more durable than someone who can only take 5 before dropping. Your comment is basically saying that Iron Man has no such thing as durability because it's all from his armour.

Anyone who would get through that armor would destroy him, and that seems to be the case with Juggy, anyone who's actually able to damage him makes him to begin with look like a chump.

No... his force field has only been explicitly drained/bypassed twice to my knowledge, once by Classic Thor and once by a hell lord. Both characters failed to seriously harm him (well the latter vaporised him to a skeleton, but Juggy kept fighting regardless and once he got his powers back healed instantly). Do you not think that perhaps the only times you see Juggy being seriously hurt he is being made to look like a chump, is because those moments are extremely inconsistent and poorly written?

Plus, Professor Hulk didn't bypass his force field or anything. He just punched him in the gut and somehow winded Juggs. It was a low showing, simple as that.

People able to damage Thor at all don't necessarily beat him. That's durability. Armor isn't really the same. It's important when dealing with Juggernaut.

Avatar image for pipxeroth
#32 Posted by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

People able to damage Thor at all don't necessarily beat him. That's durability. Armor isn't really the same. It's important when dealing with Juggernaut.

Both his forcefield and natural toughness contribute to his durability. If someone somehow bypasses his forcefield, he is less durable. That does not mean they are different things. People who are able to damage Juggernaut don't necessarily beat him either. You just see him being damaged much less commonly, and often when he is shown to be damaged it's because of either a major amp such as celestial tech, or poor writing, which is why they seem to stomp him. Either that or they're simply an insanely powerful character like Onslaught. This is all irrelevant though, because Professor Hulk did not and has no way to bypass Jugg's forcefield in the first place.

Avatar image for 20damon
#33 Posted by 20damon (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

People able to damage Thor at all don't necessarily beat him. That's durability. Armor isn't really the same. It's important when dealing with Juggernaut.

Both his forcefield and natural toughness contribute to his durability. If someone somehow bypasses his forcefield, he is less durable. That does not mean they are different things. People who are able to damage Juggernaut don't necessarily beat him either. You just see him being damaged much less commonly, and often when he is shown to be damaged it's because of either a major amp such as celestial tech, or poor writing, which is why they seem to stomp him. Either that or they're simply an insanely powerful character like Onslaught. This is all irrelevant though, because Professor Hulk did not and has no way to bypass Jugg's forcefield in the first place.

Hulk was completely insane at the time. So, Hulk has done it twice now, once with an amp and once unamped, so evidence simply shows he can.

Avatar image for pipxeroth
#34 Posted by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

Hulk was completely insane at the time. So, Hulk has done it twice now, once with an amp and once unamped, so evidence simply shows he can.

Ok I'm sorry.... what the actual hell are you going on about?

War Hulk was amped by celestial tech which allowed him to stop and hurt Juggernaut. Regardless, he never even severely hurt Cain, just got his sword up against his throat before Cain stood back up. An amped showing has no relevance. It's the equivilent of me saying that Juggernaut can stomp Thanos because of the events that happened in the Trion story.

Professor Hulk is weaker than Savage Hulk and somehow winded Juggernaut with a single punch to the gut, despite decades of showings of Cain consistently no-selling the strongest attacks from Hulk and Thor. Green Scar bodied Hercules in 3 hits, yet barely injured and resorted to BFRing Juggernaut in their fight. Juggernaut no-sold a god blast from Thor. Colossus broke both of his hands trying to even hurt Cain. The Professor Hulk instance is poor writing and a low showing for Juggernaut. Hulk has no means of bypassing Juggernaut's force field, because in case you didn't notice, he's not a mystic character.

Avatar image for jasonhitto
#35 Posted by jasonhitto (1341 posts) - - Show Bio

Jla rekt

Avatar image for costy21
#36 Posted by Costy21 (1032 posts) - - Show Bio

Truth be told, Superman And Flash just IMPs him to oblivion

Avatar image for 20damon
#37 Posted by 20damon (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

Hulk was completely insane at the time. So, Hulk has done it twice now, once with an amp and once unamped, so evidence simply shows he can.

Ok I'm sorry.... what the actual hell are you going on about?

War Hulk was amped by celestial tech which allowed him to stop and hurt Juggernaut. Regardless, he never even severely hurt Cain, just got his sword up against his throat before Cain stood back up. An amped showing has no relevance. It's the equivilent of me saying that Juggernaut can stomp Thanos because of the events that happened in the Trion story.

Professor Hulk is weaker than Savage Hulk and somehow winded Juggernaut with a single punch to the gut, despite decades of showings of Cain consistently no-selling the strongest attacks from Hulk and Thor. Green Scar bodied Hercules in 3 hits, yet barely injured and resorted to BFRing Juggernaut in their fight. Juggernaut no-sold a god blast from Thor. Colossus broke both of his hands trying to even hurt Cain. The Professor Hulk instance is poor writing and a low showing for Juggernaut. Hulk has no means of bypassing Juggernaut's force field, because in case you didn't notice, he's not a mystic character.

You're saying Juggernaut tanking Thor's God blast that has hurt Galactus is not bad writing but Hulk hurting him is? Sure.

Avatar image for pipxeroth
#38 Edited by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon: Juggernaut has consistently displayed an ridiculously high level of durability to the point of being nigh-invulnerable, especially classic Cain, so no I don't see a problem with the feat. Given that Juggernaut has consistently been unharmed by attacks from objectively stronger incarnations of Hulk and was going toe-to-toe with Green Scar, there is really no other explanation for the instance with Professor Hulk than it being poor writing. The list of characters that have actually harmed Cain is a lot smaller than you seem to believe.

Don't get me wrong, tanking the god blast is probably his most impressive durability feat, but it is not completely inconsistent with the character or objectively bad writing in the same way that Professor Hulk harming him is. With the latter, there has been decades of objectively more powerful incarnations failing to hurt him, yet he's supposedly strong enough to bring him to his knees in a single punch? It's directly contradictory to every other fight they've had. Meanwhile, the god blast has not been contradicted in the same way. There has never been a set of consistent moments of Thor harming Juggernaut with his lightning for example.

Avatar image for bones309
#39 Posted by Bones309 (2202 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't they do what Spider-man did to him years ago in the blink of an eye?

People like the Flash or Superman I would think could burrow miles under his feat causing him to drop under the Earth to point that it'd take him at the very least months to surface.

Avatar image for abelhsu
#40 Posted by AbelHsu (3533 posts) - - Show Bio

JL wins .

Avatar image for speedincarnate
#41 Edited by speedincarnate (53 posts) - - Show Bio

@bones309: Technically that's BFR which isn't allowed.

Anyways, like previously stated, the JL's best chance at winning is for Flash to attempt to phase through his forcefield, but I have my doubts on whether that will work.

Avatar image for bones309
#42 Posted by Bones309 (2202 posts) - - Show Bio

@bones309: Technically that's BFR which isn't allowed.

Anyways, like previously stated, the JL's best chance at winning is for Flash to attempt to phase through his forcefield, but I have my doubts on whether that will work.

That's debatable...at what point is someone BFR'ed? What's the radius?

Can't the Flash steal his speed too? This seems the best option over all. The Juggernaut is literally unstoppable but if he moves at less than an inch a decade...he'd still be moving but would be relatively frozen.

Over all, I'm not a big DC expert but this team seems to be very powerful. I would think Fate could sense the issue with the helmet. Far weaker people than those on this team have removed it. I'd think once it's taken out, Fate or Zatanna could mess with his mind too.

Avatar image for 20damon
#43 Posted by 20damon (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon: Juggernaut has consistently displayed an ridiculously high level of durability to the point of being nigh-invulnerable, especially classic Cain, so no I don't see a problem with the feat. Given that Juggernaut has consistently been unharmed by attacks from objectively stronger incarnations of Hulk and was going toe-to-toe with Green Scar, there is really no other explanation for the instance with Professor Hulk than it being poor writing. The list of characters that have actually harmed Cain is a lot smaller than you seem to believe.

Don't get me wrong, tanking the god blast is probably his most impressive durability feat, but it is not completely inconsistent with the character or objectively bad writing in the same way that Professor Hulk harming him is. With the latter, there has been decades of objectively more powerful incarnations failing to hurt him, yet he's supposedly strong enough to bring him to his knees in a single punch? It's directly contradictory to every other fight they've had. Meanwhile, the god blast has not been contradicted in the same way. There has never been a set of consistent moments of Thor harming Juggernaut with his lightning for example.

No Caption Provided

I'd hardly say Juggernaut is unharmed or no selling Green Scar's attacks. His helmet is dented and his charge stops Hulk from what appears to be from crushing his helmet. Juggernaut's expression and groan certainly doesn't show him no selling it. They only exchanged a handful of punches and Hulk even stopped Juggernaut's charge, short as it was, which according to the writer is what was causing the estate's foundations to give way.

So yes, he's got high damage resistance, but again, he's hardly invulnerable. And if you think Juggernaut no selling a blow that harmed Galactus is somehow better writing than Hulk being able to harm Juggs, i don't think we can ever agree here. Especially since this is three times now that Juggernaut is not no selling Hulk's hits.

Avatar image for pipxeroth
#44 Edited by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

I'd hardly say Juggernaut is unharmed or no selling Green Scar's attacks. His helmet is dented and his charge stops Hulk from what appears to be from crushing his helmet. Juggernaut's expression and groan certainly doesn't show him no selling it. They only exchanged a handful of punches and Hulk even stopped Juggernaut's charge, short as it was, which according to the writer is what was causing the estate's foundations to give way.

I didn't say he no-sold hits from Green Scar, I said he was fighting toe-to-toe with him. Denting Cain's helmet was the best thing WWH did to him, and Cain's helmet has traditionally been very inconsistent in both terms of how easy it is to remove and its durability, so it's difficult to really call it an impressive feat. But yes obviously Juggy was feeling the blows, but feeling attacks is by no means the same as being physically harmed by them or being close to getting KOd.

Also it wasn't so much as stopping Juggernaut's charge as it was redirecting the force of it downwards, but that's a bit of an irrelevant discussion anyway. Besides, people seem to misinterpret the instance. The charge that Cain started in the scan you showed was not the one Hulk "stopped".

No Caption Provided

You can see on the first panel of the next page that he has stopped and Hulk was punching him, then they both clashed against eachother, not to mention the fact that Hulk was clearly starting to be pushed back anyway if you look at the ground. So it wasn't like with War Hulk where it was a full on charge that slowed down, slowed down, slowed down, then finally stopped. It was a short forward movement that Hulk clashed against and redirected downwards, but was slowly be pushed back against anyway. Again, that's not really relevant when discussing Cain's durability anyway.

So yes, he's got high damage resistance, but again, he's hardly invulnerable. And if you think Juggernaut no selling a blow that harmed Galactus is somehow better writing than Hulk being able to harm Juggs, i don't think we can ever agree here. Especially since this is three times now that Juggernaut is not no selling Hulk's hits.

Yes, he has an extremely level of durability to the point where he's borderline-invulnerable outside of stories with very specific context. Juggernaut consistently goes up against, matches, and is unharmed by punches from stronger incarnations than Professor Hulk. Him bringing Cain to his knees is objectively inconsistent and bad writing. You can't just assume that because he has low-end PIS feats that all of his high end feats are PIS. Tanking the god blast is his best durability feat, but it's not inconsistent with how he's been written since even his earliest comics. Juggernaut's durability is through the roof. Not to mention, you're equating physical durability (punches from Hulk) with energy durability (god blast) here. From what I've seen, the latter has always been more impressive for Cain, though any time he's been damaged (emphasis on damaged, not just "hurt" i.e. felt pain) physically, it's been from someone far more strong than characters like [savage] Hulk or Thor, let alone frigging Professor Hulk.

Avatar image for 20damon
#45 Edited by 20damon (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

@pipxeroth said:

@20damon:

I'd hardly say Juggernaut is unharmed or no selling Green Scar's attacks. His helmet is dented and his charge stops Hulk from what appears to be from crushing his helmet. Juggernaut's expression and groan certainly doesn't show him no selling it. They only exchanged a handful of punches and Hulk even stopped Juggernaut's charge, short as it was, which according to the writer is what was causing the estate's foundations to give way.

I didn't say he no-sold hits from Green Scar, I said he was fighting toe-to-toe with him. Denting Cain's helmet was the best thing WWH did to him, and Cain's helmet has traditionally been very inconsistent in both terms of how easy it is to remove and its durability, so it's difficult to really call it an impressive feat. But yes obviously Juggy was feeling the blows, but feeling attacks is by no means the same as being physically harmed by them or being close to getting KOd.

Also it wasn't so much as stopping Juggernaut's charge as it was redirecting the force of it downwards, but that's a bit of an irrelevant discussion anyway. Besides, people seem to misinterpret the instance. The charge that Cain started in the scan you showed was not the one Hulk "stopped".

No Caption Provided

You can see on the first panel of the next page that he has stopped and Hulk was punching him, then they both clashed against eachother, not to mention the fact that Hulk was clearly starting to be pushed back anyway if you look at the ground. So it wasn't like with War Hulk where it was a full on charge that slowed down, slowed down, slowed down, then finally stopped. It was a short forward movement that Hulk clashed against and redirected downwards, but was slowly be pushed back against anyway. Again, that's not really relevant when discussing Cain's durability anyway.

So yes, he's got high damage resistance, but again, he's hardly invulnerable. And if you think Juggernaut no selling a blow that harmed Galactus is somehow better writing than Hulk being able to harm Juggs, i don't think we can ever agree here. Especially since this is three times now that Juggernaut is not no selling Hulk's hits.

Yes, he has an extremely level of durability to the point where he's borderline-invulnerable outside of stories with very specific context. Juggernaut consistently goes up against, matches, and is unharmed by punches from stronger incarnations than Professor Hulk. Him bringing Cain to his knees is objectively inconsistent and bad writing. You can't just assume that because he has low-end PIS feats that all of his high end feats are PIS. Tanking the god blast is his best durability feat, but it's not inconsistent with how he's been written since even his earliest comics. Juggernaut's durability is through the roof. Not to mention, you're equating physical durability (punches from Hulk) with energy durability (god blast) here. From what I've seen, the latter has always been more impressive for Cain, though any time he's been damaged (emphasis on damaged, not just "hurt" i.e. felt pain) physically, it's been from someone far more strong than characters like [savage] Hulk or Thor, let alone frigging Professor Hulk.

Hulk hurt Juggernaut there, so denting his helmet is NOT the best he did to him. Cain's groan of pain at that punch and the drawing shows that clearly. And you're wrong. Hulk is not being shown being pushed back any more than Juggernaut is, the fact that they are locked in that grasp still when the call comes shows that. Like i said, if you think Juggernaut's durability is above that of Galactus, i don't see any reason to continue this discussion.

No Caption Provided

They weren't fighting long enough to do serious damage to each other. But the point is that the JL unleashing on Juggy for 10 minutes is not going to end well for him.

Avatar image for pipxeroth
#46 Posted by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

Hulk hurt Juggernaut there, so denting his helmet is NOT the best he did to him. Cain's groan of pain at that punch and the drawing shows that clearly.

Feeling pain is not the same as being physically damaged. Denting his helmet is the only noticable damage he did. He never got close to dropping Cain with his punches, he never broken any of his bones, he never made him bleed, etc.

And you're wrong. Hulk is not being shown being pushed back any more than Juggernaut is, the fact that they are locked in that grasp still when the call comes shows that.

+image

Nope. You're objectively wrong about this

No Caption Provided

Hulk was being pushed back, Juggernaut wasn't. It's clear as day. And yes, I've seen that quote already. Like I said, people are misinterpreting it. Stopping his charge implies Cain completely losing all of his momentum, what Hulk did was more akin to slowing it down, and it was only done by redirecting Juggernaut's force downwards. Not the same thing as straight up overpowering his momentum like War Hulk did.

Like i said, if you think Juggernaut's durability is above that of Galactus, i don't see any reason to continue this discussion.

Oh please, the god blast is not galactus-level. Assuming you're talking about this scan

No Caption Provided

Thor was using mjolnir to not only god-blast Galactus (channeling Thor's life force), but he was also channeling energy from Ego. Ego alone is arguably above Galactus. By feats, the god blast is not as impressive as you seem to think.

As for whether Cain is more durable than Galactus though... well, no, of course he'd be knocked out by attacks that Galactus wouldn't be. That said, he's probably just about as difficult to kill if I'm honest. The guy was drained of his powers and life force by a hell-lord, vaporised to a skeleton, and still didn't die. Even abstracts like Eternity/Oblivion couldn't simply erase Cain from existence when they tried. To flat out kill Juggernaut you'd have to overpower Cyttorak. But that's just a bit of ranting with no relevance to the discussion anyway.

Avatar image for 20damon
#47 Posted by 20damon (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

Hulk hurt Juggernaut there, so denting his helmet is NOT the best he did to him. Cain's groan of pain at that punch and the drawing shows that clearly.

Feeling pain is not the same as being physically damaged. Denting his helmet is the only noticable damage he did. He never got close to dropping Cain with his punches, he never broken any of his bones, he never made him bleed, etc.

And you're wrong. Hulk is not being shown being pushed back any more than Juggernaut is, the fact that they are locked in that grasp still when the call comes shows that.

+image

Nope. You're objectively wrong about this

No Caption Provided

Hulk was being pushed back, Juggernaut wasn't. It's clear as day. And yes, I've seen that quote already. Like I said, people are misinterpreting it. Stopping his charge implies Cain completely losing all of his momentum, what Hulk did was more akin to slowing it down, and it was only done by redirecting Juggernaut's force downwards. Not the same thing as straight up overpowering his momentum like War Hulk did.

Like i said, if you think Juggernaut's durability is above that of Galactus, i don't see any reason to continue this discussion.

Oh please, the god blast is not galactus-level. Assuming you're talking about this scan

No Caption Provided

Thor was using mjolnir to not only god-blast Galactus (channeling Thor's life force), but he was also channeling energy from Ego. Ego alone is arguably above Galactus. By feats, the god blast is not as impressive as you seem to think.

As for whether Cain is more durable than Galactus though... well, no, of course he'd be knocked out by attacks that Galactus wouldn't be. That said, he's probably just about as difficult to kill if I'm honest. The guy was drained of his powers and life force by a hell-lord, vaporised to a skeleton, and still didn't die. Even abstracts like Eternity/Oblivion couldn't simply erase Cain from existence when they tried. To flat out kill Juggernaut you'd have to overpower Cyttorak. But that's just a bit of ranting with no relevance to the discussion anyway.

You're showing Hulk having been pushed back an inch before stopping Juggernaut? What exactly is that supposed to prove? And yes, Hulk's only real punch on Juggernaut caused him to groan in pain and dented the helmet. It was not as if they were going to one shot each other. He landed one punch and it caused him to groan out in pain. Going back to my point about him simply not being invulnerable and the entire JL going to town on him for 10 minutes would not end well for him.

Avatar image for pipxeroth
#48 Posted by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

You're showing Hulk having been pushed back an inch before stopping Juggernaut? What exactly is that supposed to prove?

Before? That was after they had clashed and the ground was being destroyed. It was pretty explicitly showing that Hulk was being forced backwards. We don't know how long it would have taken because Hulk decided to BFR him, but he never stopped Juggernaut to a halt.

And yes, Hulk's only real punch on Juggernaut caused him to groan in pain and dented the helmet. It was not as if they were going to one shot each other. He landed one punch and it caused him to groan out in pain.

Hulk's best punch only dented Cain's helmet, while Juggy was smacking the shit out of him and making him spit out blood with every hit. Juggernaut was objectively causing much more damage to Hulk than vice versa, not matter how much you want to twist it.

Going back to my point about him simply not being invulnerable and the entire JL going to town on him for 10 minutes would not end well for him.

Yes and I said at the very beginning, he doesn't have true invulnerability (nothing in Marvel short of TOAA really does), but his durability is far beyond the level where he should be dropped to his knees with a single punch from Professor Hulk. You've done nothing but bring about misinformation. Pretty much every Juggernaut thread I've seen you comment in involves you using that scan. It's ridiculous, inconsistent, poorly written, and explicitly contradicts decades of showings against stronger incarnations of Hulk and characters on his level, and you have to stop spamming it everywhere trying to prove that a simple high tier can knock out Juggs with a few hits. What you're doing is the definition of lowballing, but even worse you're basing it all on one single scan.

Avatar image for 20damon
#49 Posted by 20damon (6040 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

You're showing Hulk having been pushed back an inch before stopping Juggernaut? What exactly is that supposed to prove?

Before? That was after they had clashed and the ground was being destroyed. It was pretty explicitly showing that Hulk was being forced backwards. We don't know how long it would have taken because Hulk decided to BFR him, but he never stopped Juggernaut to a halt.

And yes, Hulk's only real punch on Juggernaut caused him to groan in pain and dented the helmet. It was not as if they were going to one shot each other. He landed one punch and it caused him to groan out in pain.

Hulk's best punch only dented Cain's helmet, while Juggy was smacking the shit out of him and making him spit out blood with every hit. Juggernaut was objectively causing much more damage to Hulk than vice versa, not matter how much you want to twist it.

Going back to my point about him simply not being invulnerable and the entire JL going to town on him for 10 minutes would not end well for him.

Yes and I said at the very beginning, he doesn't have true invulnerability (nothing in Marvel short of TOAA really does), but his durability is far beyond the level where he should be dropped to his knees with a single punch from Professor Hulk. You've done nothing but bring about misinformation. Pretty much every Juggernaut thread I've seen you comment in involves you using that scan. It's ridiculous, inconsistent, poorly written, and explicitly contradicts decades of showings against stronger incarnations of Hulk and characters on his level, and you have to stop spamming it everywhere trying to prove that a simple high tier can knock out Juggs with a few hits. What you're doing is the definition of lowballing, but even worse you're basing it all on one single scan.

Hulk hit him once and sent him back groaning in pain. What i am showing is Green Scar sending Juggernaut groaning in pain with -1- punch, 2 other versions of Hulk trashing him. You can hate it all you want, it goes to show consistently enough that Hulk -is- able to damage Juggernaut. Yeah, it's REAL lowballing to dare to say that HULK of all people is able to damage Juggernaut. Let's jsut agree to disagree here. We're NEVER going to agree on your vision of Juggernaut's level of power.

Avatar image for pipxeroth
#50 Posted by Pipxeroth (9129 posts) - - Show Bio

@20damon:

Hulk hit him once and sent him back groaning in pain. What i am showing is Green Scar sending Juggernaut groaning in pain with -1- punch, 2 other versions of Hulk trashing him. You can hate it all you want, it goes to show consistently enough that Hulk -is- able to damage Juggernaut. Yeah, it's REAL lowballing to dare to say that HULK of all people is able to damage Juggernaut.

No, do you seriously not understand what consistency means?

Do I need to go through every fight they've had to show you that Hulk is consistently not able to drop Juggernaut no matter how many punches he throws?

You're showing Green Scar hurting him and damaging his helmet with a strong double-fisted uppercut... and yet he still wasn't anywhere close to KOing him, in fact Juggernaut was beating the snot out of him. Just use your damn brain dude, if you think Professor Hulk dropping Juggernaut with a single punch to the gut is legit, then why would Green Scar, someone who is FAR more powerful than even Savage Hulk, resort to BFRing him while mentioning that he doesn't have all day? It's not a difficult concept.

And I still don't understand why you're bring up War Hulk? He was massively amped by Celestial tech, should I suddenly start bringing in Trion Juggernaut feats? Hell, it would make way more sense than you bringing up War Hulk, given that this is current Juggernaut who confirmed he was given enough power to kill Cyttorak.

Yeah, it's REAL lowballing to dare to say that HULK of all people is able to damage Juggernaut.

This makes no sense. Yes, you're using one extremely poorly written instance of a weak incarnation of Hulk dropping Juggs with one punch, and it goes against everything else that has been shown in decades worth of appearances. But because he's the Hulk it's legit? Lol what. Is this your argument for Hulk vs Thanos? Hulk vs Odin? Hulk vs Galactus? Please, use your brain.

Let's jsut agree to disagree here. We're NEVER going to agree on your vision of Juggernaut's level of power.

You're not obliged to reply if you don't want to. But all you do in Juggernaut threads is bring about misinformation and use that one PIS scan. It's the equivalent of me going into every Hulk thread and going:

No Caption Provided

Oh look Hulk is slow and can get smacked around by a high-mid tier like the Thing, guess he gets stomped then.

So if you keep making stupid claims with lone PIS scans as your evidence, I'll keep correcting you.