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#1 Posted by GuedesEvery (611 posts) - - Show Bio
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2vs2

Series version

Standart gear

• Kill

• Morals on

Place:

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#2 Posted by green_skaar (12430 posts) - - Show Bio

Bronn/Euron

Bronn is the MVP

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#3 Posted by the_wspanialy (4096 posts) - - Show Bio

Ehh, most likely team 2.

Jon tends to suck when fighting against established or semi-established opponnents.

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#4 Posted by Amcu (16934 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't watched S8 episode 1 but based on previous season I'd say its close but I'll back team 2. I would probably back Jon against either Bronn or Euron but either would likely give him a very good fight. Jorah would lose to either IMO.

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#5 Posted by SwordofDamocles (319 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 in a good fight.

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#6 Posted by phillip33 (4281 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

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#7 Edited by KingLouie (3567 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2

Bronn is a beast

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#8 Posted by MetalJimmor (6554 posts) - - Show Bio

I still don't know where to place Euron. He absolutely beasted through the Sand Snakes, but that is his only notable combat feat so far. The Sand Snakes themselves weren't exactly unskilled, but they never did anything to really solidify where they rank.

Still, overwhelming multiple named characters is a pretty great feat. I'd say between him and Bronn Team 2 has a good chance against Jon and Jorah.

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#9 Posted by Chubbs (936 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

I think Jon’s a little overrated. I think Euron would be able to kill him.

I also think Bronn would be able to kill Jorah if he fought dirty enough.

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#10 Posted by SwordofDamocles (319 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: I think Euron is arguably beyond actual Jon , I would say he could arguably beat him to be honest. Euron is a better version of Styr in every way in my opinion (except strength)

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#11 Posted by JediXMan (42744 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll back team 2.

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#12 Posted by Kal-Elol (446 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2. Jon is good, but both Euron and Bronn are extremely skilled, as well, but extremely underhanded too. Jorah is well past his prime and a big weak link, IMO.

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#13 Edited by huthimamwa (2562 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 in an almost stomp. Euron is a beast. He was practically fodderizing multiple Sandsnakes by himself. The same ones that Bronn was struggling against. And Bronn himself has more impressive feats than Jorah. Jorah's only notable feat is beating a bunch of no-name slaves in a fighting pit before getting his ass handed to him by a Waterdancer. Then there's the fact that both fighters in team 2 will resort to fighting dirty.

Yea. Team 2 stomps.

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#14 Edited by dark_globe (671 posts) - - Show Bio

team one .
euron is overrated .
jon would beat him before bronn would take down jorah which means 2v1 and bronn ain´t winning this .
jon also has the advantage having the best weapon here .

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#15 Posted by Six-Deuce (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

Bronn is terrific and Euron has one great showing. Team 1 because Jon has far more positive showings than either of them and Jorah isnt useless. PIS or not, neither Euron hasnt shown that he could survive what Jon has been through and while Bronn perhaps could it would be more due to his good decision making abilities.

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#16 Posted by MetalJimmor (6554 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce:

What has Jon survived that you don't think any of these war-tested veterans could?

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#17 Posted by GateOfBabylon (4417 posts) - - Show Bio

Euron is hardly great. Jorah isn't that skilled but he's experienced and great at improvisation and adaptation, which explains how he's survived this long.

Jon is probably the most skilled character in the show now. Bronn is great but I think the odds favour Team 1 more.

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#18 Posted by nfactor1995 (12947 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2, solid fight. Jorah loses to everyone here. My respect for Bronn has gone up a lot recently, but I'm not entirely sure how to rate Euron. He seems like a beast, but his best feat currently is beating the sand snakes, the best (arguably at least) of which newby left-handed Jaime was able to fight/match for a prolonged fight. So not sure how impressive that is.

Jon is a beast against fodder, but has lost to the established fighters he's faced (Styr - only defeated due to luckily finding a hammer within arm's reach after being solidly beat up, Tanner - solidly defeated until Tanner got distracted). I can't tell if I'm convinced that the choreography of his fighting/efficiency at killing fodder is enough to convince me that he beats Bronn. Given Jon's performance against Styr, I'm also not entirely convinced that his skill and own physical prowess will be able to overcome the sheer strength, rage, and ferocity that Euron brings.

All in all, I'd say Bronn narrowly beats Jon, or matches him, while Euron beats Jorah. Swap those matchups and generally the same result (Bronn beats Jorah, Jon/Euron more or less match each other or at least have a prolonged fight).

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#19 Posted by Six-Deuce (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: Well, the bedlam while in the middle of the battle of the bastards is one example. I dont believe any other combatant here could have for instance dismounted the charging knight with one blow in the same fashion. Perhaps Bronn would have the skill and cunning to dodge around and get out of the center of the fray in order to survive (he has a good feat of killing mounted dornishmen but it would not have worked done like this in the botb). Also we saw other powerful and skilled combatants like the hound tested last season against the the wights but Jon was pretty much in his element. The guy just has a ton of different types of combat feats. Dont let a desire to be contrarian push towards lowballing. I think Euron is the only wildcard here as we haven't really seen him pushed to his limits...as it stands, Jon has the feats to push this fight in his favor.

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#20 Posted by MetalJimmor (6554 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce:

I am not being a contrarian, I just don't believe surviving a battle is something that is all that exceptional. Everyone in this fight have been through battles and survived and I don't think it is right to give Jon such high praise just because his big battle was on-screen. Jon also almost died at multiple points during the Battle of the Bastards and was largely saved by his fellow soldiers are pure luck.

Fighting wights isn't really applicable to this sort of engagement either. Wights are even less skilled than a fodder soldier on paper, and Jon is packing a weapon that puts them down due to its magical nature. It also isn't like the other fighters with him weren't cutting them down by the number themselves.

This is why I am skeptical of your claim. There aren't many situations Jon has survived that couldn't have been endured by someone else here or didn't come down to chance.

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#21 Posted by SwordofDamocles (319 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: Agree with you. I would argue the way Jon survived (Battle of Bastard/Wight hunt) was only because a insane Plot armor, not due to feats.

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#22 Posted by Amcu (16934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nfactor1995:

I'm also not entirely convinced that his skill and own physical prowess will be able to overcome the sheer strength, rage, and ferocity that Euron brings.

What makes you think Euron is stronger than Jon? I'm blanking on his strength showings.

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#23 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2365 posts) - - Show Bio

Euron lacks the feats to beat Jon but he definitely can beat Jorah who's well past his prime and not exactly Barristan Selmy. Bronn beats Jon in a long, drawn out fight that could honestly go either way if Jon is lucky/has plot armour.

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#24 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate.

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#25 Edited by AzureAmaterasu (503 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I'm gonna go with team 1 cause Euron may die at some point through being cocky or overly aggressive, regardless I think he would die then team 1 would win.

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#26 Posted by the_red_viper (12797 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2. Good fight.

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#27 Posted by Six-Deuce (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: you asked for a SPECIFIC feat that Jon did/can do and then gave a strawman argument to counter my response. I am speaking specifically about the strength feat where Jon dehorsed the charging knight backwards thereby staying ready to fight when he was quickly attacked again. Bronn has no such feat. My general point is Jon has a broad spectrum of on-screen feats and surviving different scenarios. Also, Bronn has the same problem as Jorah....he is past his prime. Bronn is not so much more skilled than Jon to make it clear he can overcome his deficit in physicals either. Furthermore, Jon and Jorah would likely fight together better as a team than Euron/Bronn.

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#28 Edited by captain_inverse (2358 posts) - - Show Bio

@huthimamwa: @metaljimmor: Eurons win over the vipers doesn't account for much

1. it wasn't a stand alone fight, it was a battle. (even if it was SEMI-portrayed as one)

2. they were fighting on a boat at sea, might as well be Eurons home field advantage.

Jorahs getting old but the man gained an audience with Dany by killing his way up the fighting pits. Also, Jorah generally is in plate mail so he has the armor advantage. Neither of team 2 is so overwhelmingly skilled/fast enough to exploit the weight and movement of his armor.

and in the end (IMO)....Jon will only be portrayed better and better

team 1

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#29 Posted by RuinedUrGurl (109 posts) - - Show Bio

Jon beats Euron

Bronn beats Jorah

Bronn beats Jon

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#30 Posted by AzureAmaterasu (503 posts) - - Show Bio

@ruinedurgurl That's also how I imagined it but if you think about it Euron may die - may even die rather quickly - then it will be Jon and Jorah vs Bronn where Bronn is going down. Jorah can definitely stalemate Bronn, and Euron probably won't play it smart in the long term so tactically team 1 win.

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#31 Edited by MetalJimmor (6554 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce:

You are completely misinterpreting what I said and throwing insults my way. I don't appreciate it. What you said.

@six-deuce said:

Bronn is terrific and Euron has one great showing. Team 1 because Jon has far more positive showings than either of them and Jorah isnt useless. PIS or not, neither Euron hasnt shown that he could survive what Jon has been through and while Bronn perhaps could it would be more due to his good decision making abilities.

Then what I asked.

@metaljimmor said:

What has Jon survived that you don't think any of these war-tested veterans could?

I didn't ask about feats, I asked what events Jon has endured that you didn't think anyone else here could. You also responded to my request for you to back up your claim with ad hominem (calling me a contrarian) and accused me of low-balling. Now you're accusing me of even more logical fallacies.

If you'd like to stop throwing shade my way we can start over and have a civil discussion.

@captain_inverse said:

Eurons win over the vipers doesn't account for much

1. it wasn't a stand alone fight, it was a battle. (even if it was SEMI-portrayed as one)

2. they were fighting on a boat at sea, might as well be Eurons home field advantage.

Jorahs getting old but the man gained an audience with Dany by killing his way up the fighting pits. Also, Jorah generally is in plate mail so he has the armor advantage. Neither of team 2 is so overwhelmingly skilled/fast enough to exploit the weight and movement of his armor.

and in the end (IMO)....Jon will only be portrayed better and better

team 1

1. It was a battle, but when Euron engaged the Sand Snakes he didn't get any extra support, which functionally makes it a duel. I do think the whip girl was briefly distracted, but she also attacked Euron while he was fighting someone else so it kind of evens out. If anything this makes the feat better for Euron because he'd just gotten done hacking through some fodder and was still in good enough shape to beat Yara, who herself isn't exactly a slouch.

2. True. Euron had a field advantage. Though that didn't really seem to effect the fight. The ship they were on barely moved at all.

I agree about Jorah. I feel a lot of people here aren't giving him his fair due.

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#32 Posted by webinyoureye11 (5762 posts) - - Show Bio

I think J&J take it. Jon vs bronn would be a good match. Jon vs euron definitely goes to Jon imho.

Jorah would prolly beat euron as well as give bronn a good fight. So team 1 has the slight advantage

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#33 Edited by Six-Deuce (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: I did not in point of fact insult you. You took a statement that is not an insult as an insult. Being contrarian is often very much called for logically and other times it is not. I also did point you towards a specific moment (feat) that I dont think others would have survived...as you requested. This strength showing is not repeated by any of the others here and would need to have a workaround by Bronn or Jorah especially as they are not physically powerful enough to do this. Euron may or may not be but as of yet does not have evidence of it. Bronn is not killing Jorah before Jon kills Euron. In fact we have multiple accounts of the way Bronn kills heavily armored combatants....he wears them out. Longclaw is another advantage in this fight for team 1...wont take long for a fatal strike to be landed.

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#34 Posted by nfactor1995 (12947 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: I’d have to rewatch and analyze his fight again. I don’t remember any particularly noteworthy strength feats for Jon either though, and he fights with much more finesse and skill than Euron does (Euron’s style seems similar to that of Tormund and Styr, just overwhelming ferocity and strength, with some level of skill mixed in). One doesn’t usually fight with just raw ferocity if they aren’t physically dominating from what I’ve seen though.

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#35 Posted by Amcu (16934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nfactor1995:

I think Jon definitely relies more on his skill and speed and that is the main thing about him that makes him impressive to me as I personally think he's the fastest character in GOT. But he certainly has some nice strength showings IMO and from the feats I'm aware of I don't see any current fighters in GOT having a significant advantage over him in strength other than the Clegane Brothers and maybe Brienne.

As for his showings he managed to throw a man 10 feet with one arm.

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Even more impressive is this showing here where a man gallops full speed at him and he manages to knock the man flying off of his horse.

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The strength required just to negate all of the forward momentum from the guy riding on horseback is impressive enough, but doing so and sending the guy backwards is ridiculous.

For an even more impressive showing we have the instance where he holds a rope attached Ygritte's body as she falls a solid 30-40 ft

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Holding onto that rope when it came taught under the abrupt force of her fall would actually be extremely impressive IMO and Jon did that with one hand.

To add to that Jon seems to be very good at fighting people stronger than him with melee weapons. For instance his showing against Styr. Overall he may not have done all that well but he did manage to block/parry quite a few attacks. Styr was a massive guy and proved himself to be way stronger than Jon later in their fight.

More impressively he's actually managed to lock blades with a White Walker.

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And I think he proved this was consistent in his second fight with a White Walker where he blocked and parried several attacks before killing it.

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Now I don't think he's nearly as strong as a White Walker or anything but it does seem that opponents stronger than Jon struggle to show that advantage in melee exchanges when they're parrying each other's hits which I would attribute to his skill.

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#36 Posted by nfactor1995 (12947 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Huh. I'd forgotten most of these aside from the BOTB and White Walker one. Those are actually pretty impressive strength feats. I re-watched the ship fight, and Euron doesn't have any that compare, outside of just appearing ferocious and like a beast in the ship fight against Yara's men.

I guess if we argue a pure feats perspective (and possibly this is just how it is in-universe as well), then Jon should be both stronger and more skilled than Euron. I personally feel that the show is portraying Euron as a physical beast on par with the people I previously listed (Styr, Tormund, a very poor man's Mountain) given his fighting style and personality, but I guess we'll see how they portray him in the rest of season 8.

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#37 Edited by cromulor (2399 posts) - - Show Bio

Bronn beats either of them individually, Euron gives either of them a good fight individually. So I back Team 2.

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#38 Edited by Amcu (16934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nfactor1995: That definitely seems fair. Euron is very ferocious in a way Jon has only really been at BOTB. In strength I don't know personally. I never got the felling of overwhelming physicality from him that I got from Styr or Sandor for instance. Both of them seemed a lot bigger than him from what I remember and just goggling the actors they seem to be 5-6 inches taller than him. I thought of Euron as more comparable to the standard top tier fighters in GOT personally, though I could see him being a bit stronger than most of them. Maybe Tormund is a good example of someone he's likely comparable to.

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#39 Posted by nfactor1995 (12947 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Yeah it’s kind of hard to tell yet. I’m sure we’ll get at least one good fight for him this season. Maybe Jon will get a good fight against an established character as well...but we shall see.

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#40 Posted by MetalJimmor (6554 posts) - - Show Bio

I did not in point of fact insult you. You took a statement that is not an insult as an insult. Being contrarian is often very much called for logically and other times it is not. I also did point you towards a specific moment (feat) that I dont think others would have survived...as you requested. This strength showing is not repeated by any of the others here and would need to have a workaround by Bronn or Jorah especially as they are not physically powerful enough to do this. Euron may or may not be but as of yet does not have evidence of it. Bronn is not killing Jorah before Jon kills Euron. In fact we have multiple accounts of the way Bronn kills heavily armored combatants....he wears them out. Longclaw is another advantage in this fight for team 1...wont take long for a fatal strike to be landed.

From my experience people call others a contrarian when they believe going against the popular opinion is in some way misguided or in error. If you didn't mean it that way then I apologize for jumping to that conclusion.

The horse feat is debatable. While nobody else has the exact feat we also know Jon isn't a superhuman character and isn't an especially big man. If he can do it I'd argue there's a decent chance Euron, who swings around an oversized axe as his standard weapon, likely could as well.

At the same time though, anyone here could have survived that by just getting out of the way. My question was about survival, not about replicating feats perfectly.

I am more interested in feats of skill rather than stats. These characters all exist in the same universe and we know generally how fighters stack up in terms of relative physicals. In terms of fights fought, Jon hasn't really done anything the other fighters here couldn't replicate if given similar advantages and context Jon had at the time.

Basically, I don't see a good reason to rank Jon far above everyone else here as a fighter, which your first comment seemed to. Jon surely has a far greater number of feats from being a main character, but his feats don't seem to greatly exceed the quality of what everyone else here has, in my opinion.

The best skill feats Jon has are from fighting White Walkers, but we don't really know what their relative skill level is. Though I imagine we'll find out tomorrow or next week. Just a couple more episodes could swing this debate wildly in either direction.

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#41 Posted by SwordofDamocles (319 posts) - - Show Bio

Basically, I don't see a good reason to rank Jon far above everyone else here as a fighter, which your first comment seemed to. Jon surely has a far greater number of feats from being a main character, but his feats don't seem to greatly exceed the quality of what everyone else here has, in my opinion.


Exactly . I don't understand why people rank Jon feats in BOB so high. Sure the striking-away Bolton horsemen was impressive, but that it. Bronn stomped 2-3 armored oppenents in Blackwater, Bronn did kill 3 Dornish Horsemen by himself. (The way he did) How can people think Jon feats make him superior ?

And about the WW like many people including yourself pointed , they didn't show feats who where that impressive. Strength feats ? sure. Skills feats who would rank them in top-tier fighters ? Nop.

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#42 Edited by TheVivas (19502 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 cause I think Bronn will beat Jorah and help to defeat Jon.

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#43 Posted by Six-Deuce (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: point taken about the term contrarian, I didnt mean it as an insult. As far as the botb feat we are talking about....you may be missing the forest for the trees here. I did initially state that Bronn could have survived by making smart tactical decisions (avoiding and getting out of the center) but Euron does not have the speed/strength/tactic feats shown to have survived here. That is what Jon brings to the table....and why he gets underrated sometimes as a victim of his own success (being a main character with plot armor). Jon is as fast and strong as anyone here. Jon is nearly equal in skill with Bronn. Jon has best weapon here by far. And Jon has a teammate in heavy armor. I think a 1v1 with Bronn is debatable, but it is overreaching to put Euron so high with one battle on record we can actually look at.

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#44 Posted by Six-Deuce (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@swordofdamocles: I specifically addressed this point in my very first response here. Bronn does have a good feat of de-horseing the dornish knights but he did it in a way he could not have replicated under the circumstances Jon had here in this moment. Bronn used terrain and positioning to set up a kill, Jon used pure speed and strength as he was under constant threat from every angle. They are apples and oranges. Also, as I earlier stated...Bronn takes time to wear down an opponent in heavy armor to kill them. While he could most assuredly do that with Jorah, he isnt doing it before Jon lands a fatal strike on Euron who has no real strength or speed feats to compare with Jon and is in far inferior gear.

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#45 Posted by Six-Deuce (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: Euron has not shown that he could hang with Jon longer than Jorah could keep Bronn at bay. Euron would charge and end up dead...best case scenario he lasts as long as Styr (benefit of the doubt because Styr had the reach advantage and in this fight Jon would).

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#46 Posted by RuinedUrGurl (109 posts) - - Show Bio

@azureamaterasu: when you put it that way it makes it very interested bronn as good as he is cannot beat that team

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#47 Posted by MarvelandDCfan24 (7566 posts) - - Show Bio

Jon kills Euron he'd out skill him and has way better feats

Jorah beats Euron more skilled

Bron beats either Jon or Jorah and is the MVP here seals his team the win

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#48 Posted by MetalJimmor (6554 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce:

That is a fair stance to have. I personally rate Euron higher than you do, but like I admitted in my first post here I want to see another action scene with him before really solidifying my ranking for him.

What makes Euron's feat so impressive to me is that the people he took down actually had feats to themselves. Two of the Sand Snakes were enough to give Bronn a hard time (he made some excuses after the battle, but Bronn has never been a man of honor, so I personally doubt he actually has a code against hurting women) and Euron cleared them with some struggle.

Also keep in mind: Euron was unarmed when he killed the Sand Snakes. His axe was embedded in another man's skull when the whip girl pulled him in. Euron beat them with fisticuffs, disarming them, and then killing them with their own weapons. He then went on to fight Yara, herself capable of fighting multiple trained soldiers simultaneously, and beat her despite being injured from his fight with the Sand Snakes.

This, to me, suggests a surprisingly high skill level. Certainly high pain tolerance and endurance. I don't think Jon could take him as easily as you're suggesting, and I actually think he'd make a bad matchup for Jorah because that axe is going to do a number on a man even in plate.

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#49 Edited by Six-Deuce (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: your opinion is fair as well...I am not lowballing Euron. I just do not think that his one good showing establishes him as high upper tier. Jon has fought skilled opponents without a weapon quite a bit as well, from white walkers to knights, wights, and northern berserkers. I just think given the way Bronn is known to take on fighters like Jorah (by show and book both) he takes a little while to kill them safely. A Euron/Jon fight would definitely be over quickly one way or the other...and it has to go to Jon, plot armor or no.

Also it is most likely that they would face off with Euron and Jon in front and the more tactically minded Bronn/Jorah fighting more cautiously to the side.

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#50 Posted by MetalJimmor (6554 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce:

It ultimately comes down to Euron not having a very large pool of feats to draw from. It makes it difficult to place him definitively. I just think the quality of the feats he does have are at least on par with many of Jon's best feats, if not a bit better, and because he doesn't have any obvious low showings there isn't a strong case to rank him below where that one good showing puts him. At the very least you can scale Euron to Bronn pretty well given they both took on two Sand Snakes at once, though Bronn was armed while Euron wasn't which explains why Bronn seemed to be doing better.

Ultimately we'll have to agree to disagree. I am sure Euron will get another fight sooner or later. I imagine the White Walkers will definitely get more feats soon too.