Jon Snow vs Qotho

Prime show versions. Both are equipped with their swords. The fight is to the death.

Who wins and why?

Game of Thrones Callouts:

Aegon solidly.

Did Qotho actually do anything?

I think Jon wins this, not because I can find too many reasons on why he should simply be better, but he definitely has a lot more good feats to him. And that, makes him win to me.

@cuckedcurry: Ah, I got him mixed up with the guy Drogo killed. Qotho should win.

@lubub55:

He was the guy that Mormont killed, the guy who thought he could beat armor simply by trying to be faster (bad move). I can't think of anything impressive he did that blew me away. At the very least, he is a dumber fighter than Jon here. The idea that 'he toyed with Jorah Mormont' sounds ridiculous to me. It was more like Jorah let him have his victories knowing what he was doing, and drew him in, and played him with his advantage, and then killed him. Which is what happened. Jon can do the same thing to him too. I think this easily comes down to the fact that Jon is no where near that level of dumbness, and at least tries to keep a smart, tactically safe swordsmen approach (even if he is many times unimpressive).

Jon.

Jon

John stomps

Jon.

Jon in a one sided fight.

Qotho wins, eh? Reasons? Good fight?

@nfactor1995: Jon would beat Jorah, but with nowhere near the level of ease Qotho did it with. Jon might be able to pull a win through armour, but he'd clearly be on the losing end of the fight until that point.

I don't think using Jorah as a measuring stick is fair here. Jon might not have been able to clown Jorah with such ease, but I don't see Qotho doing the same to Jon. Qotho was far faster than Jorah - but he isn't that much faster than Jon, if he is faster to begin with. He was also stronger than Jorah, but definitely not stronger than Jon. And Jon has Longclaw which gives him better reach and has all the properties of Valyrian Steel. I don't see Qotho beating Jon at all, but Jon isn't winning this easily.

Jon’s feats blow his away

jon stomps unless its season 1 jon

Huh? Quotho didn't ultimately beat him, Jorah beat Quotho. And it was clear, and if it was fought 10 times in a row, Jorah would have beaten Quotho at least 9. And where do people get this idea that he clowned Jorah at all? He got off a couple decent licks, with one being what you might consider a good exchange - but Jorah controlled the fight enough where he wasn't ever put in a position where he would outright lose, and then lured Quotho into a trap - because Quotho is a dumb fighter that would get likewise smoked by Jon. This is not what clowning is. Here is the fight just to review:

@theonewhopullsthestrings:

Qotho was clearly the more skilled combatant. Jorah got one push in the fight initially; Qotho got a cut on Jorah's face, knocked him to the floor and landed what would have been a lethal blow if not for Jorah's armour. This isn't even up for debate, Qotho's superiority over Jorah is clear.

Qotho.

@lubub55:

He pushed him to the ground sure, on a rather clumsy frontal power hit, and Jorah on being beaten by such force rolled further on the ground importantly. Meaning if Qotho tried to press that further, he could have still defended himself in short enough order on the ground. As it stands, that proved he may have been better for a single part of the engagement, that the way they were done was just 'swing, swing swing away', with little thought in mind, he was a bit of a stupid unintelligent brute (why he lost soundly).

And if you are going to say 'but he got cut and pushed on the ground' makes him the clearly better fighter during the whole fight, then may I ask you what Jorah does when clowning him in his aggressiveness into cutting right through Qotho's jugular? I am sure that doesn't indicate any more skill to you does it?

@lubub55: Technically speaking, any trained knight isn't going to care about you trying to hit them in the breastplate with a curved sword. They are only going to block the areas they know are vulnerable, their joints and, in Jorah's case, his face, which he did with his higher guard.

You can hit a knight thirteen times in the breastplate without him blocking, it doesn't mean he is a worse fighter. Just means he is skilled enough to know he doesn't need to block it, and, instead, can use that to his advantage by purposely leaving it open to be hit so that he can retaliate.

If we are going to call his hilariously bad 'jump attack' as skilled then we are really lowering the bar on skill and IQ.

@wut: Qotho did hit Jorah's face, a "vulnerable area". And then he knocked him to the dirt with a "hilariously bad 'jump attack'", clearing showing he's the better fighter. We can cut the fight right before Qotho hits the breastplate if you like and Qotho's dominance is still clear. Qotho has no knowledge of armour; that doesn't make him less skilled. The fight clearly shows he's more skilled. Jorah didn't "let" Qotho hit his breastplate, Qotho hit it because he's a much better fighter and Jorah got lucky because of it.

@lubub55: He got a small draw cut that didn't do anything besides ruin Jorah's good looks. Jorah hit Qotho's face, and, well, we know what happened. Lol so, doing a hilariously bad jump in the middle of a duel that should get you killed is something you mark as a good fighter? Man, I would love to hear your commentary on any combat, "Man, look at that spin kick, master class right there." No. At best, the sheer stupidity of the movie surprised Jorah which is about all I can imagine. Not that Jorah is an amazing swordsmen [the combat roll in the arena can never be forgotten[.

I never said Jorah 'let' Qotho hit him, I said a trained knight, like Jorah, is not going to bother guarding his midsection when it is protected by plate armor. There is no reason. This is the same reason that, once full plate became common, shields died out with knights because they became redundant. If someone were to hit his chest, it would do nothing and, likely, leave them open to retaliation, so, instead, you defend the areas you know are vulnerable, which he did.

The moment he hit the body, Jorah locked the blade down. Why? Because training and reflex told him to do so. Why? Because that is how one fights with armor, you trust it to protect you.

What you are doing is going, 'Qotho is just so fast! God, so awesome! He hit Jorah three times! THREE! Sure no real damage was caused by any and it was just flashy nonsense, but three times! So much better!' This is so wrong I struggle putting it into words. By your 'logic' any practitioner of fencing >>>>> Kendo simply on the basis that a fencer is going to be faster and land more blows. That does not, in any way, mean one is inherently more skilled then the other.

In-universe, we know both are very good, Jorah is a tournie winning knight, Qotho has long hair meaning he has won more then his fair share of duels. However, you need to examine them at what they do. Qotho is a lightly armored raider, speed is going to be his thing, aggressive style is going to be his thing. Jorah is a knight, a more methodical way of fighting is going to make sense because, as a knight in full plate often fighting other knights in full plate speed doesn't mean as much as maneuverability, shot placement and power. They are good in their respect fields, in-universe, one is not inherently better then the other just because they are 'faster' and use 'flashy moves' especially when said nonsense and lack of knowledge is what gets him killed.

So, no, Qotho is not 'way better' then Jorah.

@wut: You really shouldn't judge live-action fights by their choreography. That jump may have gotten him killed in a realistic situation, but this is fiction, the choreography doesn't need to be realistic, it needs to be entertaining for the crowd, which it is. During the entire fight Qotho was at an advantage, putting Jorah on the back foot (or worse - on the ground) and injuring him. Qotho was only killed when his blade got jagged in Jorah's armor - which was a point the show made as a nod at one of the previous episodes where Jorah was lecturing Rakharo on the benefits of armor. So, yes, Jorah was clowned by Qotho and would have died if not for the armor. Qotho was more skilled by a mile. I still don't think he will beat Jon though.

@the_red_viper: You need to. If you are going to debate 'skill' you need to relate it to 'skill'. Not, 'Well, that move was dumb but totally works because it was cool'. Otherwise, there is no point on examining it in the first place. That is like saying, Gun X can do Y amount of damage because of Z then get upset when someone points out how it was more V because of Y. You don't get to pick and choose when you apply logic.

I highly contest the 'more skilled by a mile' nonsense. Again, different fighting styles. One is based on speed, getting the first lethal blow in since they live in a culture without armor which makes such fighting styles logical. Jorah comes from a culture with heavy armor and so isn't going to rely on speed. Qotho is faster. If they were fighting unarmored, sure, Qotho would win because, again, his fighting style is based around that. But that isn't what happened. These two warriors, with their different styles, were matched up. Jorah won because his style favored superior equipment, which he had. They are both very good in their chosen fields. This is the same nonsense as saying a Samurai, or Knight, is better then the other 'because of training' when the level of training and skill would be very similar just based in different martial forms based upon available technology and equipment.

@wut:

You need to. If you are going to debate 'skill' you need to relate it to 'skill'. Not, 'Well, that move was dumb but totally works because it was cool'. Otherwise, there is no point on examining it in the first place. That is like saying, Gun X can do Y amount of damage because of Z then get upset when someone points out how it was more V because of Y. You don't get to pick and choose when you apply logic.

No, you do not need to pay any attention to choreography, because then literally every live-action warrior would be less skilled than a potato. Choreography is meant to look cool, and not much more. 99.9% of the people watching "Game of Thrones", or any other TV show for that matter, have absolutely no idea how swordfights work and for all they know, jumps and spins and all those flashy things are perfect moves. Choreography was never a factor when judging live-action fights and it never will be, there's really no point in discussing this, just move on. You're in the wrong here.

I highly contest the 'more skilled by a mile' nonsense. Again, different fighting styles. One is based on speed, getting the first lethal blow in since they live in a culture without armor which makes such fighting styles logical. Jorah comes from a culture with heavy armor and so isn't going to rely on speed. Qotho is faster. If they were fighting unarmored, sure, Qotho would win because, again, his fighting style is based around that. But that isn't what happened. These two warriors, with their different styles, were matched up. Jorah won because his style favored superior equipment, which he had. They are both very good in their chosen fields. This is the same nonsense as saying a Samurai, or Knight, is better then the other 'because of training' when the level of training and skill would be very similar just based in different martial forms based upon available technology and equipment.

The fact that the style is different makes no matter. Every fighter needs speed, not just Dothraki. It's not like Jorah (or many other knights in the show) were shown to be fighting without armor on numerous occasions. The sole reason that Qotho died is that he had no idea how to fight a man in armor. Qotho wounded Jorah, put him on the floor and would have killed him if not for the armor. Jorah won thanks to his enemy's lack of knowledge on armor, and a fair amount of luck. In my book, that counts as Qotho being more skilled by a mile.