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#1 Posted by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules:

  • In character.
  • Win by death or knockout.
  • Standard melee gear. Jon wears Stark armour.
  • Fight in Daznak's Pit.

Jon Snow:

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vs

Round One: The Waif

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Round Two: Ser Beric Dondarrion

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Round Three: Ser Alliser Thorne

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Round Four: SmallJon Umber

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Round Five: Daario Naharis

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Round Six: Ser Bronn of the Blackwater

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#2 Posted by JediXMan (42706 posts) - - Show Bio

So here's my question: what notable people has Jon defeated? Don't mention the White Walker or Halfhand; the former was circumstantial and the latter wanted to die.

Definitely isn't clearing.

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#3 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6802 posts) - - Show Bio

At the very least gets to Daario

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#4 Edited by The_Fub (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

Loses to Daario. Jon Snown is good, but not that good.

EDIT: Im actually not sure if he could defeat Beric Dondarrion, considering how well he did against The Hound (granted he had a MAJOR advantage.)

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#5 Edited by jao48 (465 posts) - - Show Bio

This is out of order, but Jon definetly loses to Daario.

Round two, three and four would end in a close win for him. Can't tell if he could beat Bronn.

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#6 Posted by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio

@jao48 said:

This is out of order, but Jon definetly loses to Daario.

Round two, three and four would end in a close win for him. Can't tell if he could beat Bronn.

How would you order it?

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#7 Posted by jao48 (465 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by The_Fub (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

@jao48: Eh I think its implied that Daario should be better, dont recall all his actual feats though.

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#11 Posted by h34n (52 posts) - - Show Bio

who the fuck is smalljon umber and yeah it probably stops at daario if guy is actually good

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#12 Posted by jao48 (465 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean in the end of the gauntlet. Like a big boss that kills Jon. He is above Bronn.

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#13 Edited by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio

Daario > Bronn.

He can maybe beat Broon for a majority, but he should stop at Daario.

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#14 Edited by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithemanwithoutfeari said:

Daario > Bronn.

He can maybe beat Broon for a majority, but he should stop at Daario.

@jao48 said:

I mean in the end of the gauntlet. Like a big boss that kills Jon. He is above Bronn.

Bronn beat Ser Vardis, was handling two Sand Snakes simultaneously (choreography was poor, but they are supposed to be reasonably experienced and well-trained killers) while holding back, defeated three Dornish cavalry singlehandedly (probably could have taken them all, but he left the fourth for Jaime), has fodder feats as good as Daario's and can even pull off his knife trick... there's no reason I can see to put Daario over Bronn.

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#15 Posted by destinyman75 (14658 posts) - - Show Bio

Hell the waif would beat John. He's one of my favs but that waif was a bad ass and he wouldn't expect the girl without armor to be so good. He stops at one but could beat a couple on the list

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#16 Posted by Chubbs (931 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: In single combat, Jon

Round 2: I'll give this round a 50/50 split

Round 3: Jon

Round 4: Maybe Jon

Round 5: Whether he fights dirty or not, Daario

Round 6: Again, whether he fights dirty or not, Bronn

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#17 Posted by Chubbs (931 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like Bronn and Daario are very similar. They're both extremely skilled and aren't too proud to fight dirty if they have to. I'd guess Bronn would win in a direct fight between the two. It seems like Daario's recklessness would get him killed against someone like Bronn.

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#18 Posted by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio

@chubbs said:

I feel like Bronn and Daario are very similar. They're both extremely skilled and aren't too proud to fight dirty if they have to. I'd guess Bronn would win in a direct fight between the two. It seems like Daario's recklessness would get him killed against someone like Bronn.

It would be a good fight for sure.

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#19 Posted by omriamar (7068 posts) - - Show Bio

out of order Daario Naharis is definitely above Bronn in evry way posibale and also Dondarrion(who gave the hound a run for his money) is stronger then Alliser Thorne who is way over his prime.

as for the guntlent:

Round 1: Jon 9/10

Round 2: jon 6/10

Round 3: Jon 8/10

Round 4: 50/50 (Umber is no joke)

Round 5: Naharis 9/10 (he might be the current greatest fighter in games of thrones)

Round 6: Jon 6/10 Bronn is mostly overrated his true weapon is his cunning and jon wont get so easily tricked

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#20 Posted by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio

@omriamar: Dondarrion had the advantage of fire (the Hound's phobia) and the Hound was hungover fighting in a tight space. We haven't seen him do anything outside of that. Alliser was cutting down fodder at the Battle of the Wall and was the master at arms at Castle Black.

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#21 Edited by The_Fub (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

@omriamar: The Hound, Naharis, Brienne and The Mountain are definetly the best out there right now. Bronn, Jon and Tormmund probably follow.

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#22 Posted by omriamar (7068 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: holding against the hound with fire or not is still more impressive than cutting off fodder which is a feat done by many in this show and means absolutely nothing even tyrion lannister did it. the fact is Alliser have nothing to put him over Dondarrion other than the fact he was master of arms at Castle Black which dosent automatically puts him over Dondarrion its still just a title held on what 50 man

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#23 Posted by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio

@omriamar said:

@rogueshadow: holding against the hound with fire or not is still more impressive than cutting off fodder which is a feat done by many in this show and means absolutely nothing even tyrion lannister did it. the fact is Alliser have nothing to put him over Dondarrion other than the fact he was master of arms at Castle Black which dosent automatically puts him over Dondarrion its still just a title held on what 50 man

IIRC, Tyrion only ever killed a guy from behind by cutting his leg off with an axe and by attacking another guy from behind with a shield.

Losing to a hungover Sandor while wielding his single greatest fear doesn't impress me that much.

All the rounds are legitimate challenges for Jon in my opinion, 2 - 4 are probably all in the same region in my opinion.

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#24 Posted by omriamar (7068 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_fub said:

@omriamar: The Hound, Naharis, Brienne and The Mountain are definetly the best out there right now. Bronn, Jon and Tormmund probably follow.

you forgot:

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no man is equal to him in the skill department!!!!

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#25 Posted by omriamar (7068 posts) - - Show Bio

@omriamar said:

@rogueshadow: holding against the hound with fire or not is still more impressive than cutting off fodder which is a feat done by many in this show and means absolutely nothing even tyrion lannister did it. the fact is Alliser have nothing to put him over Dondarrion other than the fact he was master of arms at Castle Black which dosent automatically puts him over Dondarrion its still just a title held on what 50 man

IIRC, Tyrion only ever killed a guy from behind by cutting his leg off with an axe and by attacking another guy from behind with a shield.

Losing to a hungover Sandor while wielding his single greatest fear doesn't impress me that much.

All the rounds are legitimate challenges for Jon in my opinion, 2 - 4 are probably all in the same region in my opinion.

dondarrion feat is still better plus the fact he is much closer to his prime put him above Alliser

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#26 Edited by Sawed_Off_It (13362 posts) - - Show Bio

GOT rules and PIS probably 5

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#27 Edited by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio

@omriamar said:
@rogueshadow said:
@omriamar said:

@rogueshadow: holding against the hound with fire or not is still more impressive than cutting off fodder which is a feat done by many in this show and means absolutely nothing even tyrion lannister did it. the fact is Alliser have nothing to put him over Dondarrion other than the fact he was master of arms at Castle Black which dosent automatically puts him over Dondarrion its still just a title held on what 50 man

IIRC, Tyrion only ever killed a guy from behind by cutting his leg off with an axe and by attacking another guy from behind with a shield.

Losing to a hungover Sandor while wielding his single greatest fear doesn't impress me that much.

All the rounds are legitimate challenges for Jon in my opinion, 2 - 4 are probably all in the same region in my opinion.

dondarrion feat is still better plus the fact he is much closer to his prime put him above Alliser

I don't think so, taking out many Wildlings and holding out against Tormund and losing is better than holding out and losing to a seriously debilitated Sandor in my opinion. I don't think either are supposed to be infirm in any way due to their age, and Beric isn't a spring chicken, not to mention his body is busted up given his many deaths. The difference isn't that big though, and Beric will likely definitively surpass him when he gets more feats next season.

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#28 Posted by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Beric should above Thorne and Umber.

On topic, clears. People put too much stock in his lack of showings against named fighters and ignore the fact that he has some of the best fodder feats in the series, certainly much better than anyone on this list.

Even if we are going to make him out as some sweet summer pansy his feats against named characters aren't bad persay (with the exception of the mutineer, and he learned from that), definitely good enough to put him in the same range as someone like Bronn (Fighting and eventually beating Styr is at least as impressive as beating and old knight imo).

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#29 Posted by the_red_viper (12747 posts) - - Show Bio

Order is fine.

Jon loses to either Umber or Daario.

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#30 Posted by the_red_viper (12747 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: Best fodder feats? Naaaah. That would be Selmy VS the Sons of the Harpy. Even Bronn and Grey Worm have better fodder feats.

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#31 Posted by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

I said he had some of the best, not the best. That'd be Dayne followed by Selmy.

Grey Worm isn't here, fodder showings for Bronn that are close?

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#32 Posted by Richard96 (5798 posts) - - Show Bio

I say he can clear

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#33 Posted by the_red_viper (12747 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: Dayne's fight is arguably not fodder but yeah sure.

Bronn playing whack the mole with Dornish cavalry is better than anything Jon has ever done.

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#34 Posted by the_red_viper (12747 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

W'eve been over this.

Lord* Beric Dondarrion, goddamnit. Lol.

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#35 Posted by the_wspanialy (4078 posts) - - Show Bio

Everyone here has a decent chance to beat Jon. He definitely stops at Daario though. Suggestion that he beats Bronn is outright laughable.

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#36 Posted by captain_inverse (2353 posts) - - Show Bio

@h34n said:

who the fuck is smalljon umber and yeah it probably stops at daario if guy is actually good

Smalljon fought along side Ramsay in the battle for Winterfell against Jon/Wildlings.

Honestly I don't understand peoples problem with the order.....it's not out-of-order.

ON TOPIC:

Stops at Bronn, if Jon gets stopped at all.

Daario is like a foreign version of Karl Tanner, If Jon wasn't as accustomed as he is to "dirty fighting" against people like Karl & that main Thenn during the battle for Castle Black, Darrio would have a much easier time with him.......But Jon IS used to fighting people who would trip,spit,bite, & stab in the back to win.

Darrio would give Jon trouble, but Jon's gear is DEFINITELY SUPERIOR & Jon has fought just as ruthlessly/underhanded as the best of them.

Bronn is all around slightly better than Darrio, just with better gear. (This fight is a toss up IMO)

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#37 Posted by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Beric should above Thorne and Umber.

On topic, clears. People put too much stock in his lack of showings against named fighters and ignore the fact that he has some of the best fodder feats in the series, certainly much better than anyone on this list.

Even if we are going to make him out as some sweet summer pansy his feats against named characters aren't bad persay (with the exception of the mutineer, and he learned from that), definitely good enough to put him in the same range as someone like Bronn (Fighting and eventually beating Styr is at least as impressive as beating and old knight imo).

  • Jon lost to Styr, he was disarmed and then Styr toyed with him, pummelling him all over the place, it took grabbing an external weapon to beat him in the end (the mallet). That's not going to be an option here.
  • Ser Vardis wasn't old in the show, and he seemed to be Lysa's best knight as it was him she wanted to fight for her when all of the others said they would.

Bronn:

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The top gif was just with his kukri, he didn't even use his sword. Taking out cavalry like that is extremely impressive in my opinion.

Handled two Sand Snakes at once:

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Choreography's shit here, I know, but I definitely think they were meant to be quite a bit above soldiers and guards.

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#38 Posted by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by the_red_viper (12747 posts) - - Show Bio

@captain_inverse: Daario has shown extremely impressive skill when taking Yunkai alongside Jorah and Grey Worm. It would be a close fight but he will beat Jon in my opinion.

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#40 Posted by deactivated-5c8c48323d2d9 (2599 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with Buildhare.

People put too much weight on 1v1 fights and not enough on battles won. I would place Jon as one of the most seasoned fighters purely on the basis that he survived being in the thick of every major battle. Sure he struggles some major character fights but he's exhausted. He's had less than a few weeks to heal and recover until the next battle happens.

And it's not as if he's hiding in the back. He's right smack in the middle of every fight.

That's why i agree with Buildhare. He clears this particular gauntlet.

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#41 Edited by the_red_viper (12747 posts) - - Show Bio

@soaringturkeys said:

I agree with Buildhare.

People put too much weight on 1v1 fights and not enough on battles won. I would place Jon as one of the most seasoned fighters purely on the basis that he survived being in the thick of every major battle. Sure he struggles some major character fights but he's exhausted. He's had less than a few weeks to heal and recover until the next battle happens.

And it's not as if he's hiding in the back. He's right smack in the middle of every fight.

That's why i agree with Buildhare. He clears this particular gauntlet.

Daario Naharis is a fighting-pit champion. He's been fighting since the day he learned to swing a sword. After earning his freedom he was a mercenary for one of the biggest companies in Essos. Jon hasn't been in half as many battles as him.

Being part of large scale open-battles such as the Battle of the Bastards isn't a real testament of skill. BotB is usually what most people use as Jon's testament of skill but it really isn't anything special. He was nearly killed several times but was saved at the last second by dumb luck every time. Plus he was as bloodlusted as it gets after watching his little brother getting killed in cold blood. Daario performed far better when taking Yunkai with Jorah and Grey Worm.

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#42 Posted by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

Jon lost to Styr, he was disarmed and then Styr toyed with him, pummelling him all over the place, it took grabbing an external weapon to beat him in the end (the mallet).

Jon did beat Styr, he just had to improvise. He didn't toy with him after disarming him initially;

Loading Video...

2:29.

It was only after both were totally unarmed he was able to toy with him, which is hardly a low showing.

That's not going to be an option here.

It isn't, but it's extremely unlikely Bronn has a shot at working Jon into a situation he needs an external factor to win (Styr was only able to do it due to his weapon (he pulled it away with the axe) and superior strength). If nothing else it's a good example that Jon can and has used other methods than pure swordplay to win fights, similarly to Bronn's dirty tactics.

Ser Vardis wasn't old in the show, and he seemed to be Lysa's best knight as it was him she wanted to fight for her when all of the others said they would.

Fair enough, but I don't think being a good knight in a land of knights is as good as being the best warrior (or at least implied by his status/lordship over the Thenn) in a warrior culture.

The top gif was just with his kukri, he didn't even use his sword. Taking out cavalry like that is extremely impressive in my opinion.

I agree.

Choreography's shit here, I know, but I definitely think they were meant to be quite a bit above soldiers and guards.

I'm not sure about this. Jamie had previously struggled against a single Dornish soldier and was able to hold his ground against a sand snake. It's likely he was constantly improving during his time in Dorne but he can't have gotten that much better between the time it took to get to the princess. It's unclear how good they're supposed to be and if they're supposed to be great they certainly haven't shown it.

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#43 Edited by zill0678 (2395 posts) - - Show Bio

Everyone here has a decent chance to beat Jon. He definitely stops at Daario though. Suggestion that he beats Bronn is outright laughable.

I agree with this however I think he can beat daario too with high difficulty. bronn though is out of jons reach right now

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#44 Posted by deactivated-5c7e1b5f631f5 (1472 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 5 or 6

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#45 Posted by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare:

  • No but Styr was the first one to disarm him, forcing Jon to grab the net, without which he would've surely died, then unarmed he beat him again, he could have just broken his neck if he'd wanted to, Jon clearly wasn't the better fighter of the two imo. Every time he's faced an elite combatant he's survived by happenstance, Karl was punking him even without fighting dirty. To be fair, Jon is better now than he was then though (presumably).
  • That's true regarding Styr, but it's considerably less impressive than somebody like Khal Drogo as there are far fewer Thenns than Dothraki, at least in the books, in the show I seriously doubt there were more than a few thousand people in his clan, if that, they seemed like outcasts on the show and we don't see many of them.
  • It's really important to note that Jaime is now using his metal hand against Obara; I think that's a massive distinction, given that he can now use his right hand in combat, his hand where all his skill lies, struggling with him shouldn't be seen as a low-end feat. He's not himself but he's no longer fodder. Hopefully the Sand Snakes will do something next season, definitely think they're far above fodder soldiers and guardsmen. Actually, screw that, hopefully they die in episode one, they're shit.

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#46 Edited by the_red_viper (12747 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: The OP still says "Ser Beric Dondarrion". Are you messing with my OCD on purpose?

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#47 Posted by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

No but Styr was the first one to disarm him, forcing Jon to grab the net, without which he would've surely died, then unarmed he beat him again, he could have just broken his neck if he'd wanted to,

Yes, I agreed he was toying with him at that point. It's pretty shitty that Jon reaches for a weapon rack filled with swords and grabs a net.

Jon clearly wasn't the better fighter of the two imo.

I disagree, Jon was doing things I don't think would be possible if they were equals or Styr was superior.

Here is the video I'm using for times.

At 0:12 Jon is able to fend off Styr's attack and actively push him back and put him on the defensive. It's extremely obvious Styr is much stronger than Jon is and he's not overly slow. If he were as skilled as Jon (or really that close) the idea that he could be put on the defensive at any point with a physical advantage like that, as well as (in this scenario) a superior weapon, is incorrect.

From the sounds of it Jon keeps that offensive up until 0:36 where he is disarmed, then he dodges away from Styr from 0:40 to 0:45 despite being unarmed. The only times Snow was tagged in armed combat were during or just after he was disarmed by Styr. I'd chalk that up to the axe mainly, with a straight-sword or great-sword such disarms would have been impossible.

Every time he's faced an elite combatant he's survived by happenstance,

With the exception of Karl that's not a bad thing. The elite combatants he has faced have been top tier. Obviously the White Walker is beyond anyone on the list so losing to him isn't a bad showing, and having to use the environment and other tools against Styr isn't really either. We don't know much about him but the nearest Westeros comparison would be to the Hound. Both are surprisingly fast and skilled, ridiculously strong and use gigantic weapons. I don't think Styr could match the Hound but it's clear that he's meant to be a good fighter.

Karl was punking him even without fighting dirty. To be fair, Jon is better now than he was then though (presumably).

It's a bad showing in comparison to his others but how was Karl punking him? He landed a hit with his elbow and didn't face him initially afterwards, even if he had have pressed his advantage Jon was still able to defend himself. That's Karl being a wanker, not him punking Jon.

That's true regarding Styr, but it's considerably less impressive than somebody like Khal Drogo as there are far fewer Thenns than Dothraki, at least in the books, in the show I seriously doubt there were more than a few thousand people in his clan, if that, they seemed like outcasts on the show and we don't see many of them.

The Thenn were widely regarded as the worst right? If the Thenn are the most fierce warriors beyond the wall, and Styr is assumedly their best warrior, isn't that an accolade in itself? Regardless of the size of his clan, being one of if the not the best warrior beyond the wall is still pretty good.

It's really important to note that Jaime is now using his metal hand against Obara; I think that's a massive distinction, given that he can now use his right hand in combat, his hand where all his skill lies, struggling with him shouldn't be seen as a low-end feat. He's not himself but he's no longer fodder.

It just seemed like he used it as a blocking implement for most of it though, not like by using that hand he was suddenly regaining lost prowess.

Wouldn't a fighter of Jamie's level be ambidextrous anyway?

Hopefully the Sand Snakes will do something next season, definitely think they're far above fodder soldiers and guardsmen. Actually, screw that, hopefully they die in episode one, they're shit.

I like it, ideally it would be as they land on Westeros but I would be more than happy with a throwaway line about how they all got scurvy and died off-screen during the trip.

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#48 Edited by The_Fub (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: No to the ambidextrous part. It was stated clearly in the book and show that Jaimes right hand was his sword hand. Clear by how much worse he is with his left as well, having to get training from Bronn just to be halfway decent.

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#49 Edited by rogueshadow (29360 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare:

  • It makes sense I suppose, Jon probably knew he couldn't beat him with a sword; if he can't beat him with Valyrian steel, castle-forged steel ain't doing shit, I've never noticed it before but what he did was pretty smart really.
  • Styr's bigger and stronger, but Jon was doubtlessly faster and more agile, the axe had more reach but it slowed Styr down and minimised his agility. Styr didn't look slow I agree, but he was clearly slower than Jon just based on looking at them, and the weapon being Valyrian steel only adds to his speed due to its lightness. Styr didn't look like he had crazy Robert Baratheon/Mountain speed (in the books) where they can swing around greatswords and warhammers like daggers, he seemed appropriately slow given the weapon.
  • His fight against the Dornish guard definitely catalysed the realisation that the hand could be used in combat, which he then implemented fully against Obara. That's how I saw it, they don't linger heavily on it or make a point of it, but he clearly begins to use it more fluidly than before, where it was an off the cuff thing and it shocked him. I just have serious doubts that the Sand Snakes, who have been training for years (Obara being trained by Oberyn with spear) are equal to random mook guards. Unless those guards were somehow elite, the fact they were on horseback would likely indicate they weren't generic guardsman now that I think about it. Jaime isn't ambidexterous, he was useless with his left hand, remember when he tries to fight a random mook for the first time and loses? He admitted to Tyrion that he was useless with his left.
  • Karl was winning the fight and shit-talking while he did it, Karl definitely had control of that fight, he really didn't seem like he was going all out to me, and he won the fight in the end. How that fight would go now... not sure, we need to see more from Jon, I want to see him beat a skilled fighter.
  • The Thenns were heavily disliked and cannibals. I don't think we know anything else about them from the show, or how their culture worked, and we can't take much from the books as they are drastically different from their book counterparts, who are the most civilised of the Freefolk, they are the polar opposite.
  • I still feel Bronn defeating what was most likely the best knight in Lysa's court and handling two Sand Snakes at once is better than Jon losing to Styr/Karl, even with his kukri he's at least leveled with Jon's fodder feats and has some of the best combat speed in the series.

Also, I think that this is a very underrated feat for Jon:

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Grenn has training and experience and was shown fodderising men with the same training at Craster's but Jon pretty much wrecks him.

I wouldn't call Grenn an elite fighter, but he's decent.

@the_red_viper said:

@rogueshadow: The OP still says "Ser Beric Dondarrion". Are you messing with my OCD on purpose?

Well, we agreed that he is a knight, in the books at least. I'm just going to leave it there to annoy you now, lol.

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#50 Posted by killers10333 (3441 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally i think he could clear based on how tough he is in battle, but daario definitely beats him 8/10

Bronn is 50/50