@costy21: @adriusus: That's a rather exhaustive list because magic. An example would be masking the universe from Darkseid to make it appear to be a consumed universe. A favorite older one is selling his soul to different demons so that he wouldn't die because of what would happen when each tried to claim it -- that's how he beat his own lung cancer. He's gone so far as to threaten the presence and successfully intimidate the presence. Intimidating God take a special kind of special.
Gallery
He's survived being thrown from space through re-entry impacting the planet, used Doctor Fate when Fate needed his help, and withstood space and time bending around Darkseid's gravity in giant form. He actually does have quite a bit of magical power when he uses it, but it's his abilities in conning and manipulation that set him apart.
He's trapped and abducted the Phantom Stranger, sealed his soul, sealed Deadman in the Sea King's body, altered space and time, teleported, tranmuted matter, cast illusions, jedi mind tricks, etc, etc.
Something that might be specifically useful with prep would be the turnabout curse.
Some more tidbits...
Gallery
... Doctor Fate, transforming himself into a demon, trapped Darkseid's army.
Constantine with prep is scary. The drawback is always in the prices to be paid, but that affects the people around him as they end up paying the price.
Oh man, nice feats. The only problem that I have is the fact that I don`t believe he intimidated the Presence. The Presence knows everything.
@costy21: @adriusus: That's a rather exhaustive list because magic. An example would be masking the universe from Darkseid to make it appear to be a consumed universe. A favorite older one is selling his soul to different demons so that he wouldn't die because of what would happen when each tried to claim it -- that's how he beat his own lung cancer. He's gone so far as to threaten the presence and successfully intimidate the presence. Intimidating God take a special kind of special.
Gallery
He's survived being thrown from space through re-entry impacting the planet, used Doctor Fate when Fate needed his help, and withstood space and time bending around Darkseid's gravity in giant form. He actually does have quite a bit of magical power when he uses it, but it's his abilities in conning and manipulation that set him apart.
He's trapped and abducted the Phantom Stranger, sealed his soul, sealed Deadman in the Sea King's body, altered space and time, teleported, tranmuted matter, cast illusions, jedi mind tricks, etc, etc.
Something that might be specifically useful with prep would be the turnabout curse.
Some more tidbits...
Gallery
... Doctor Fate, transforming himself into a demon, trapped Darkseid's army.
Constantine with prep is scary. The drawback is always in the prices to be paid, but that affects the people around him as they end up paying the price.
Oh man, nice feats. The only problem that I have is the fact that I don`t believe he intimidated the Presence. The Presence knows everything.
I've always wondered the same thing. How do you trick an omni-scient being?
@blackestnight93: He was capable of taking down both Scarlet Witch and Dr. Strange at the same time using his Adamantium Sentinels (he needed less than a week to made them). Maybe he can win if only he gets prep but with both having prep John wins no question IMO.
@blackestnight93: Yes I am knowledgeable on Stark. That's one of the reasons I came to Vine. So that people would stop underrating him. And thanks by the way.
@blackestnight93: He was capable of taking down both Scarlet Witch and Dr. Strange at the same time using his Adamantium Sentinels (he needed less than a week to made them). Maybe he can win if only he gets prep but with both having prep John wins no question IMO.
To be fair that happened when their guard was down and were defenseless (Strange even says as much), their backs were even turned to the sentinels because they were in the middle of performing a spell not pertaining to them. Considering the shoddy planning that went along with everything there, this really only happened to conveniently extend the ordeal. As a whole, he's admittedly not well versed in dealing with magic and doesn't understand it. Though for many cases he is still very good with prep.
@jrupert1: I'm aware it wa sa sucker punch (ok not punch but you know what I mean). I'm saying is that he is capable of taking down magical users even if that means attacking before they can react and the best thing he has done with ready sorcerers is going toe-to-toe with Dr. Doom who was using his magic. That is the best thing he has shown. So again I wanted to say if John is not ready Stark might take him out but both have prep. No way Stark can win this.
@jrupert1: I'm aware it wa sa sucker punch (ok not punch but you know what I mean). I'm saying is that he is capable of taking down magical users even if that means attacking before they can react and the best thing he has done with ready sorcerers is going toe-to-toe with Dr. Doom who was using his magic. That is the best thing he has shown. So again I wanted to say if John is not ready Stark might take him out but both have prep. No way Stark can win this.
Well yeah, I agree with the last part. And his dealings with Doom are a much better example to use as it's not misleading. :)
@super_sayian_beyonder: the live action one? yeah, it's okay. But because it got cancelled, it ends on a massive cliff hanger
I'll give it a watch then.
Matt Ryan is a really good John. His character even reappears on Arrow during season 4. There is a rumor floating around that CW might be giving the character a series or incorporating him further into their universe
@male-man: He doesn't have magic now? Well I don't know his feats without magic.
I'm pretty sure John doesn't use much in the way of actual magic (pre-52), a lot of his strategies rely on magical gear, his vast occult knowledge, his synchronicity wave travelling (his supernatural luck ability, could have gotten the name wrong though), and his ability to bullshit nearly everyone lol. Although I've seen John use fireballs and the like in new 52.
Take Dangerous Habits for example: John sold his soul to three seperate hell lords because he was dying of cancer. When John was about to die, all three came to collect his soul. They realized that if John died, then they would have to go to war over his soul. So instead they cured his cancer. John then gives the first of the fallen (one of the hell lords who he sold his soul to) the finger.
Although if we are considering magic gear and rituals as usingmagic here, then John gets his ass kicked unless he can call in outside help.
Not verses a morals off tony...and i'd still say no unless he could use said prep time to get outside help. (there are some strong people that either owe him favors or would back him up)
And his synchronicity is OP but it has it's limitations, the things that he tries just seem to work out in the best possible outcomes, it doesn't make him unbeatable....there are such things as no-win scenarios.
Ok, so I know John Constantine is a really powerful sorcerer that's extremely cunning.
Let's say for round 2, John couldn't use magic. Could John win on his cunningness alone? Could he successfully find a way to con Iron Man into defeat?
I would say it's possible. He would need something compelling enough to make Tony walk into a trap. Without outside help, John wouldn't be able to turn someone more powerful than Iron Man against him.
He could possibly convince Iron Man to fight someone too powerful for Stark to face. Or just simply talk Iron Man out of fighting him.
I mean he's conned Batman before to do his bidding, who already distrusts him. Batman is considered one of the most cunning characters in the DCU--having manipulated Darkseid, The Spectre (Post-Crisis), and Metron before.
Honestly, it's much less like since John uses his cunningness to recruit others to do his work. Or he uses it in conjunction with a spell. You take both of those away, IMHO, it doesn't leave him with much options.
@algorhythm511: @costy21: Prolly because he seen that there was some truth to what John said about taking over hell; that it wasn't just talk.
I think I understand it. I'm not trying to lowball John, I'm simply trying to make sense out of how a man could trick an all-knowing being.
IIRC, the Presence gives people free will, but will sometimes interviene if necessary.
This is really hard to explain, but God, being omniscient, knew long before that John would do this. He already knew John would take over Hell if he was sent there even before they talked. Does any of that make any sense?
Stark is morals off (616+ultimate IM)...i don't see him giving much opportunity for john to start jobbing. My first thought at "no magic for john" was go get outside help too =p (has john ever made use of non-magical traps before though?)
IIRC, the Presence gives people free will, but will sometimes interviene if necessary.
This is really hard to explain, but God, being omniscient, knew long before that John would do this. He already knew John would take over Hell if he was sent there even before they talked. Does any of that make any sense?
with regard to him & the presence, free will kinda counters omniscients. He could see the likely-hood of what would come to pass as opposed to john just B.Sing him. So he would foresee that more likely than not John could do it, when factoring his character & previous choices he has made it was prolly clear what he would/could do.
That's how i see it, could very well be mistaken. You cannot have "true" omnipotence with free will. but one such as the presence can see ALL possibilities and along with knowing all the past choices one made and their personality can tell how much of a certainty something is.
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