John Constantine vs Harry Dresden

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Lupine

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#1  Edited By Lupine

This takes place in New York City, both Dresden and Constantine are searching for a certain ancient artifact of potentially unimaginable power. John needt for his own undisclosed reasons, meanwhile Harry believes it could potentially save hundreds if not thousands of lives. The two meet in Times Square. They don't have any knowledge about one another, but they have had prep for the mission and any dangers it might hold.  
 
Who wins? 
                    \                 vs      
                                                       Harry Dresden                                                John Constantine

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SSGL1

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#2  Edited By SSGL1

HARRY
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Wyldsong

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#3  Edited By Wyldsong

I love both characters.  Have to go with Dresden on this one though.
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Dessolution

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#4  Edited By Dessolution

You know, next time you decided to spoil the book for the rest of us, don't. 

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RetolledTruth

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#5  Edited By RetolledTruth
@Dessolution said:
"You know, next time you decided to spoil the book for the rest of us, don't.  "

leave 
 
JK
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Wyldsong

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#6  Edited By Wyldsong
@Crom-Cruach said:
" @Dessolution said:
" You know, next time you decided to spoil the book for the rest of us, don't.  "
Hey, I was just stating the facts. And sorry to those who haven't read the last one, but he was the winter knight. "
Considering I am only on book 4, I will curse you when I get a little closer to the end...
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BuckshotWasHere

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#7  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator
@Crom-Cruach: You can state facts without spoiling them for people. It's a cliffhanger in the latest book and not everyone has read it, so you should be respectful, which, in case you didn't realize it, isn't the same as saying sorry and just repeating yourself. And not only are you spoiling the book, but you're doing it for no reason since the information you provided is generally ignored when comparing characters anyway and wouldn't affect the outcome of this fight.
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Xavier St. Cloud

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#8  Edited By Xavier St. Cloud

Harry would win.
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Silkcuts

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#9  Edited By Silkcuts

John Constantine. Synchronicity alone is the reason John would win.   Dresden is just like the other Constantine copies like Cal McDonald and William Gravel.  The OG wins.  It is like Superman beats Captain Marvel.  John Constantine could con the lords of hell into saving his life. Constantine can beat any odds, because in Roots of Coincidence we learned John makes his own luck.

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Dessolution

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#10  Edited By Dessolution

Not at all. Harry Dresden is not a copy of John Constantine. There is a massive difference between the two. While John is a badass that would stare at the devil and give him a finger with a smoke in hand, Harry Dresden would likely shit his pants and run the opposite direction, throwing everything he can against a potentially dangerous enemy, if said enemy were like the devil. And he doesn't have the kind of cunning John has, otherwise he would have more then likely made the White Council his little bitch. 

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BuckshotWasHere

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#11  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator
@Crom-Cruach: I wasn't talking about power level, I was talking about health status. And since you can't manage to resist spoiling things (even after being told directly), I can't help but delete your post.
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Wyldsong

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#12  Edited By Wyldsong
@Silkcuts said:

" John Constantine. Synchronicity alone is the reason John would win.   Dresden is just like the other Constantine copies like Cal McDonald and William Gravel.  The OG wins.  It is like Superman beats Captain Marvel.  John Constantine could con the lords of hell into saving his life. Constantine can beat any odds, because in Roots of Coincidence we learned John makes his own luck.

"

I don't think synchronicity equates to an automatic win, unless you can get me a scan that states Constantine can't lose due to it? 
 
As it has been stated, Dresden and Constantine are two different characters entirely.  I never once read the Dresden Files thinking:  Man, this guy is a lot like Constantine.  Constantine is more about cunning and relying on his reputation a lot of the time.  Dresden actually has quite a bit of power at hand, and doesn't fall short on the cunning aspect himself.  
 
As for someones assessment of Dresden running and throwing everything he has at the devil if he were to show up...not true.  Plenty of instances in the novels of him standing face to face with overwhelming threats while being in a weakened state, and you don't see him heading for the hills.  Not an accurate assessment of the character at all. 
 
Honestly, they are both great characters, but in a straight up fight, Dresden has more power to bring to the party.
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Silkcuts

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#13  Edited By Silkcuts
@Wyldsong:  Constantine has his Demon blood, he is more then human.
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Wyldsong

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#14  Edited By Wyldsong
@Silkcuts said:
" @Wyldsong:  Constantine has his Demon blood, he is more then human. "
And as far as I know (which feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but please back it up with facts), that doesn't give him any special edge.  If memory serves (and it has been awhile), I thought that helped him against a vamp once, and may have shown some healing properties? 
 
Being more than human is great and all, but both characters have faced things that are more than human and been able to come out on top.  I just still don't  see a win for Constantine here.
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#15  Edited By Silkcuts
@Wyldsong:  the Demon Blood makes him faster and stronger then the average human.  That is why in real time aging john is in his late 50s and he is in prime shape.
No Caption Provided
 
As for John Constantine's power, it varies with writers.  Some writers hardly has touch his magic like Brian Azzarello and some are making John draw protection circles while drunk, like Peter Milligan.  John Constantine is one of the most powerful magi in all of comics, he doesn't abuse his powers because his magic is based on real MAGICK. He knows that everything he does ha a cost, that is why he teaches this lesson to Tim Hunter in Books of magic and other meetings the two of them have.  Dresden has like 11 issues of acting like doctor strange, when over the last 25 years John Constantine has appeared out of comics and has bothered Alan Moore
 
Dresden is an "occult detective who saves the day", that is what John Constatine started as in the Pages of Swamp Thing.  That is why Cal McDonald and William Gravel are both clones of Constatine, you can ask Niles about Cal and Ellis about Gravel, John Constatine is the original slayer of what goes bump in the night.  The only person you can argue that predates Constantine is Baron Winters, but I don't see the connection.
 
  • Cunning: John wins since he can get out of any jam, he has fought off death more times then a Marvel character and always a better way. He is known for getting what he wants.
  • Magic verses Magick: since John is steeped in real magick, it depends on if you guys want a real life fight or not.  John would win in my opinion of course since, he has studied from black books that only he knows exists, such as the missing Bible chapter of "Constantine" which he retrieved in Roots of Coincidence from the Vatican. If it is straight fireballs and whatnot, then you can argue either, but then again, John is dirty... I give him the edge again.
  • Dresden would fit the "Clone" arguement, since he is not much different then Cal McDonald or William Gravel is to Constantine, what Majestic and Supreme is to Superman.  You guys are hating on the real deal and preferring the clone.
  • Special Edge: Goes again to John, Demon Blood connects him to both Nergal and Elle.  The Universe also likes to keep John alive, since the first of the fallen want's John to suffer still and the devils cheat. Synchronicity is something John has a bit of power over and that "luck" should count for something.
 
John Constantine wins.  Ask Alan Moore, Jamie Delano, Garth Ennis, Paul Jenkins, Eddie Campbell, Rick Veitch, Mark Millar, Brian K. Vaughn, Warren Ellis, Brian Azzarello, Andy Diggle, Peter Milligan, Steve Niles, Davie Gibbons and all the other people who know John Constantine and are not comparing the horrible example of the movie version of Constantine verses the canceled show of Dresden.  John Constantine is the real deal, that is why he is the only surviving Vertigo series from its launch.  All the mention writers above wrote John except Niles and he created Cal because of influence from Constantine.  Constantine is to mature comics, what Superman is to superheros.  Sure Dresden was a book character first, but it wouldn't surprise me if he read Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.
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BuckshotWasHere

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#16  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator
@Silkcuts: I feel like more than actual ability or regular displays, you're basing this on who is "more real" in your opinion. Constantine coming first and others in the genre working off the same base means absolutely nothing. Constantine being the OG means very little in an actual fight. Saying Dresden is a "clone" is not an actual argument or reason for him to win or lose. Constantine having a long running series similarly means jack squat. You seem too steeped in your own bias to see anything else. "John would win in my opinion of course" as if as long as he's in a fight, it's safe to assume you think he'll win regardless of who else is around. You deride Dresden for his comics or tv show and attempt to base victory on Constantine's rep when it doesn't mean a thing. And I honestly can't believe you tried to support any of this by mentioning Majestic as if he wouldn't decorate Metropolis with Superman's blood if they got into a fight.

What your statements (once you remove all the name-dropping and "John's the real deal, look at how old his comics are"-padding) basically amount to is that John is cunning and regularly victorious (most protagonists can boast the same), he uses a more serious kind of magic (though the link you posted describes something not much, if at all, different from what Dresden does) and he's well-connected (which can be said for Dresden as well, given all the high powered entities he can call on, including the heavenly host which have acted on his behalf in the past, even showing him how to manipulate the energies of creation). Nothing you've presented, especially after all the garbage is disregarded, blows Dresden out of the water. 

Now, I'm not saying Constantine can't win, just that I think your reasoning is based primarily on nothing.
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Silkcuts

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#17  Edited By Silkcuts
@Buckshot:  The link is one I am still working in (sorry there is a lack of occult info on the vine and I am only one man), here is a list of a better Magick link.  My opinions are biased because I do love John Constantine and I won't deny that. One thing is for sure is that I have also made an honest effort to understand he differences in Magic(k).  John Constantine is the most magical character created because he is real magic.  His existence was cause by the Synchronicity in the situation Alan Moore was presented in Swamp Thing.  With his creative Team they gave birth to Constantine.  John Constatine would also physically break out of comics to meet his maker Alan Moore.  Alan Moore has discussed this a few times, one example being Snakes and Ladders. John Constantine doesn't just break the forth wall like Deadpool, he is a living character that real Magic makes.   I think I read enough to feel confident that John Constantine is the best at what he does.
 
Back to the clone argument, it is valid.  A clone is never as good as the original, that is why Mr. Majestic and the rest of Wildstorm couldn't sell enough to save their imprint.  I will miss them, but people rather read Superman then Majestic.  The X-men over the WildC.A.T.S. 
 
Since John Constantine is real magic, Dresden can't win because Dresden is factual.  Even if we "Set" in a a fictual world, John is more magical.  That is why he is the "fool" in the Vertigo Tarot deck.  All bias aside, if you are talking magic on Magick, Constantine wins.  To argue against it means lack of knowledge in the occult.
 
As for things in comics. Constantine is shady, but a master of making the best out of the situation.  If he had to obtain a magical item, nothing will stop him.  Nothing has yet to in Hellblazer and there is no way that Dresden fans can tell me Dresden is stronger then any of the Demons John has had to handle.
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Asesino

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#18  Edited By Asesino
@Silkcuts:claps
 
Bout time we got another Hellblazer fan. Re-reading Original Sins now.
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#19  Edited By Silkcuts
@Asesino:  :D
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Wyldsong

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#20  Edited By Wyldsong
@Silkcuts:    Usually, I don't like to go tit for tat, because it takes time and draws the argument on, but here, I guess I'll have to do just that... 
 
 "Dresden is an "occult detective who saves the day", that is what John Constatine started as in the Pages of Swamp Thing.  That is why Cal McDonald and William Gravel are both clones of Constatine, you can ask Niles about Cal and Ellis about Gravel, John Constatine is the original slayer of what goes bump in the night.  The only person you can argue that predates Constantine is Baron Winters, but I don't see the connection; Dresden would fit the "Clone" arguement, since he is not much different then Cal McDonald or William Gravel is to Constantine, what Majestic and Supreme is to Superman.  You guys are hating on the real deal and preferring the clone."

Constantine, created in, what, around 1985, was not the first example of an "occult detective who saves the day" (and subsequently wasn't even the first to use magic to do it):  Titus Crow, Dr. Laban Shrewsbury, Carnacki, Jules De Grandin, etc., etc., so forth and so on.  Even Doctor Strange was slaying things that go bump in the night before Constantine.

If you want to draw comparisons for Dresden, then you need to look into the classic wizard archetype, because that is what he is.  A wizard of the White Court who practices in the open, and started his own detective agency to help people and make a living.

Personalities, backgrounds, general abilities, the nuts and bolts of what drives each them, so forth and so on, are different.  You seem a little biased here, and seem to not have a whole lot knowledgde on the actual character of Dresden if you are trying to play the copycat card.  Besides...didn't I read once that Constantine's general character and demeanor based on Sting? Who is copying who here?
 
 
 "Cunning: John wins since he can get out of any jam, he has fought off death more times then a Marvel character and always a better way. He is known for getting what he wants."

Dresden has gotten out of his jams through cunning and sometimes raw magical power.  Often times he has been shown to turn the plans used on him against his foes (read "Grave Peril" for an awesome example of this).  Also, why bring up what Constantine has done versus a Marvel character? Dresden isn't a Marvel character...
 
 
 "Magic verses Magick: since John is steeped in real magick, it depends on if you guys want a real life fight or not.  John would win in my opinion of course since, he has studied from black books that only he knows exists, such as the missing Bible chapter of "Constantine" which he retrieved in Roots of Coincidence from the Vatican. If it is straight fireballs and whatnot, then you can argue either, but then again, John is dirty... I give him the edge again."

And Dresden has access to all sorts of ancient lore (in the form Bob, his books, and his research), and is steeped in the "real magic" of his reality.  You can point to the differences of Magic versus Magick all you want, and while that is great and all for DC/Vertigo, it has no real bearing on a fight with a Wizard who is steeped in the "real magic" of his reality.  Fireballs and whatnot...while Dresden has been known to use evocations, those aren't his only tricks, and that is not the only argument to be had with power versus power.  Dresden is tricky and skilled in his own right, and like I said, has been known to turn his foes plans against them.  There is no edge to be had here on Constantines part.
 
 
 "Special Edge: Goes again to John, Demon Blood connects him to both Nergal and Elle.  The Universe also likes to keep John alive, since the first of the fallen want's John to suffer still and the devils cheat. Synchronicity is something John has a bit of power over and that "luck" should count for something."

Synchronicity is not an automatic win, and if the universe really wanted to keep him alive, then he wouldn't be facing Dresden in this case...but this fight wasn't listed as to the death, and while luck may count for something, it doesn't, as I have said before, equate to an automatic win (besides, synchronicity can and has started to fail him before if memory serves...).
 
 
  
"all the other people who know John Constantine and are not comparing the horrible example of the movie version of Constantine verses the canceled show of Dresden."

And who is doing this particular comparison? The Dresden show was horrible.  It does not compare to the novels in the slightest, but if you are drawing on the TV rendition of Dresden for your basis then I have nothing further to say to you, because that would just be a silly thing for you to do.  And as such, I'm not using the movie version of Constantine as the basis for my argument. 
 
    
  
"John Constantine is the real deal, that is why he is the only surviving Vertigo series from its launch."

It's not him being the "real deal" that is allowing him to survive.  He has a fan base, is a good character, with some good stories.  It doesn't mean he would win this fight and has no bearing on his actual skill and power.
    
 
  
"the Demon Blood makes him faster and stronger then the average human.  That is why in real time aging john is in his late 50s and he is in prime shape."

And has someone else stated in a now deleted comment, which I won't repeat...Dresden has a little something that makes him a little more than human.  And while he may not have the "physical perfection" thing kicking, he has faced foes faster and stronger than whatever Constantine can bring to bear.  If it got to a hand to hand fight, then Constantine would probably have the edge, but in a magic fight...Dresden. 
 
 
  
"Sure Dresden was a book character first, but it wouldn't surprise me if he read Alan Moore's Swamp Thing."

Butcher enrolled in a writing class in the late 90s and was encouraged to write a book similar to Anita Blake, but ended up with the Dresden Files.  So if anything, thank Hamilton for her work crossed with Butcher's love of High Fantasy.  It wouldn't surprise me if when Constantine was created, someone had read Titus Crow, Doctor Strange, etc., etc... 
 
 

 "Dresden has like 11 issues of acting like doctor strange"

If he is acting like Doctor Strange, then he'll just BFR Constantine, but he doesn't act like Doctor Strange.  He has 12 novels, with a 13th due next year, I am not sure how many comics, and quite a few short stories.  And not once, did I ever think, "man, this guy acts like Doctor Strange" when I read the Dresden stuff. 
 
 
 
 "John Constantine is one of the most powerful magi in all of comics"

Highly, highly doubtful and completely debatable.  Give us some proof to back this up, or read the below (Zatanna in the bottom left second scan):
 

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided
 
As well, I am sure Doom, Dr. Strange, and a host of other comic sorcerers would beg to disagree...  
 
One thing real quick, this has made me want to reread the Books of Magic, and I love Constantine for things like in the previous scan.  There is no need to defend an awesome character by trying to call others clones.  Dresden is not a clone, is an awesome character in his own right, and from everything I have read of him and Constantine, in a magical battle, Dresden would take it. 
 
Now, if you want to continue the argument, feel free, but please stop with the talk of Constantine being the OG (when clearly he is not), and quit this discussion about clones.  None of that is applicable, and is completely erroneous.
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Wyldsong

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#21  Edited By Wyldsong
@Silkcuts said:
" @Buckshot:  The link is one I am still working in (sorry there is a lack of occult info on the vine and I am only one man), here is a list of a better Magick link.  My opinions are biased because I do love John Constantine and I won't deny that. One thing is for sure is that I have also made an honest effort to understand he differences in Magic(k).  John Constantine is the most magical character created because he is real magic.  His existence was cause by the Synchronicity in the situation Alan Moore was presented in Swamp Thing.  With his creative Team they gave birth to Constantine.  John Constatine would also physically break out of comics to meet his maker Alan Moore.  Alan Moore has discussed this a few times, one example being Snakes and Ladders. John Constantine doesn't just break the forth wall like Deadpool, he is a living character that real Magic makes.   I think I read enough to feel confident that John Constantine is the best at what he does.
 
Back to the clone argument, it is valid.  A clone is never as good as the original, that is why Mr. Majestic and the rest of Wildstorm couldn't sell enough to save their imprint.  I will miss them, but people rather read Superman then Majestic.  The X-men over the WildC.A.T.S. 
 
Since John Constantine is real magic, Dresden can't win because Dresden is factual.  Even if we "Set" in a a fictual world, John is more magical.  That is why he is the "fool" in the Vertigo Tarot deck.  All bias aside, if you are talking magic on Magick, Constantine wins.  To argue against it means lack of knowledge in the occult.  As for things in comics. Constantine is shady, but a master of making the best out of the situation.  If he had to obtain a magical item, nothing will stop him.  Nothing has yet to in Hellblazer and there is no way that Dresden fans can tell me Dresden is stronger then any of the Demons John has had to handle. "
Oh, for love of Pete...please don't point anyone to Wiki dealing with Magick to prove a point... 
 
One is not "factual" and one is not "fictual" (fictual, really?).  They are both creations of imaginative minds, and I know many, many, many occultists (hermetic practitioners, wickens, Order of the Golden Dawn Members, even some that claim to be druids, so forth and so on) that would beg to differ on Constantine being "real" magic.  In a fictional battle, between fictional characters, Constantine would not win, because in your mind, he is more real, and magical.  I am glad you like the character, but lets bring it back a notch or two here. 
 
And anyone that claims differently, does not show a lack of occult knowledge (which has nothing truly to do with a battle of fictional characters)...wow...did this convo just really go there?
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#22  Edited By Silkcuts
@Wyldsong:  The only things left is agree to disagree about the OG talk.

John Constantine is real magic, anyone who studied Crowley would agree that John is more pure of magic.  He doesn't have to show off the "Fantasy" magic because there is costs to that.  Constantine has "Unknown" levels of magic because he knows there must be a cosmic balance, he is nothing like the "Fantasy magi" before him such as Doctor Strange, he is steeped in read magick. 
 
In comics he has books that not even the Vatican has because he stole them from them.  His knowledge of the Arcane is vast beyond any other characters written before or after him.  That is where the Dresden fans don't see the danger in Constantine.  He can summon demons, cast cursing spells like how he killed his father, create wards so powerful that the lords of hell can't find something, raise golems if he doesn't want his hands dirty, raise the dead and even use illusions for his advantage.  John Constantine made Muslims turn their back on God, that is powerful.  The problem is the costs of magic, Dresden fans read his books and he is like a Harry Potter without a care because there is not cosmic balance to bother him.
 
If there is an arcane object John Constantine needs to have, he will do anything to get it.  Andy Diggle's run is a great example of it.  If I have to explain it, it means those who are "yeah" for Dresden as just as bias as I am for Constantine.  The only difference I have a healthier understand of what real magick is and the dangers that come with it.  So I would want Constantine to win and same with the universe, because Constantine maintains the cosmic Balance.  If John equals Cosmic Balance, then he would beat Dresden.
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#23  Edited By Silkcuts
@Wyldsong:  You want me to explain what makes Constantine powerful.  Why is Crowley Powerful?  Why is the Golden Dawn and the Masons feared magically.  John Constantine is fictional to you, but to some people he is real.  If you rule out MAGICK, then sure Constantine looks weaker then Dresden.  Constantine would likely own a copy of real grimoires, and don't tell me that Grimoires are not real.  I know someone who read the Goetia and that did not go down pretty.... To say Constantine's magic is weaker, that is to ignore the occult and the unexplained mysteries.
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BuckshotWasHere

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#24  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

I only have a couple things to say because it seems there are couple people here with a good enough understanding of both characters, this fight and the baseless nature of some of your claims for me to not be necessary.  
 
@Silkcuts said: 


Back to the clone argument, it is valid.  A clone is never as good as the original, that is why Mr. Majestic and the rest of Wildstorm couldn't sell enough to save their imprint.  I will miss them, but people rather read Superman then Majestic.  The X-men over the WildC.A.T.S.  
 

A publisher being closed down has nothing to do with which characters would win in a fight, and who came first has no bearing on who is more powerful. Majestic has performed outperformed Superman on multiple (and comparable) occasions. Superman isn't physically stronger, or faster or a better fighter simply because he came first. This clone thing as well as your "magick" statements have me convinced you have some issue distinguishing reality and fiction. 
 
@Silkcuts said:
"That is where the Dresden fans don't see the danger in Constantine.  He can summon demons (Dresden's done it), cast cursing spells like how he killed his father(Dresden wouldn't do it because of his personality but is capable of it), create wards so powerful that the lords of hell can't find something(Dresden isn't skilled with wards), raise golems if he doesn't want his hands dirty(Dresden could do it), raise the dead(Dresden's done it...with a T-Rex, but normally wouldn't because of his personality and his respect of the sanctity of both people and magic) and even use illusions for his advantage(Dresden isn't naturally skilled with illusions but could do it).  John Constantine made Muslims turn their back on God, (Dresden made a fallen angel question what she'd been doing for thousands of years and got her on his side) that is powerful.  The problem is the costs of magic, Dresden fans read his books and he is like a Harry Potter without a care because there is not cosmic balance to bother him. (Dresden routinely contemplates the cost of magic and it is so significant to him that it's part of his character and sometimes limits what he will choose to do.) "
Please answer honestly. How many of the novels have you actually read?
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#25  Edited By Silkcuts
@Buckshot:  Honesty a graphic novel, but honestly how deep have the Dresden fans read Constantine-wise, when Jenkins is never collected, Most of Ennis is out of print, Delano's is not fully collected, Snakes and Ladders is not easy to get a hold of as well. Constantine has magic, but because of how his character is the limit is "unknown", since he is set in real world, he is given the real world mentality of the costs of magic.  Remove that from him, you name it, he can do it.  That is where the Dresden fans don't see the power of Constantine.
 
Dresden didn't impress me, so I never cared to read more.  I prefer Cal McDonald and Gravel, over Dresden as well.  With the amount of comics dealing with the occult and the occult books I have read, Dresden's life story is less of a priority to me then Constantine's life should be for Dresden fans.  We can agree to disagree, because the fact is they are two difference magi and ignoring Johns Arcane knowledge and the actual application of it loads the argument against him.
 
Dresden is as scary to me as Doctor strange is in a fight.  Constantine scares me because one day he may show up in my bar.
 The screen shot from Snakes and Ladders
 The screen shot from Snakes and Ladders
If its real Magic, John wins.  Fake Magic, then I'll let you guys think what you want.
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Wyldsong

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#26  Edited By Wyldsong
@Silkcuts said:
" @Wyldsong:  You want me to explain what makes Constantine powerful.  Why is Crowley Powerful?  Why is the Golden Dawn and the Masons feared magically.  John Constantine is fictional to you, but to some people he is real.  If you rule out MAGICK, then sure Constantine looks weaker then Dresden.  Constantine would likely own a copy of real grimoires, and don't tell me that Grimoires are not real.  I know someone who read the Goetia and that did not go down pretty.... To say Constantine's magic is weaker, that is to ignore the occult and the unexplained mysteries. "
And this is where I have to end any argument with you, because you are tying to paint a "real picture" of a fictional character with fictional abilities and powers. 
 
I know someone who read the Goetia, and let me say, they are just fine, and have suffered no ill effects for it's reading (in fact, I know several).   
 
As for grimoires, they are real? Really? I wouldn't have guessed? 
 
Remember when I mentioned having friends into the occult? (Golden Dawn, Masons, Wickens, blah, blah, blah) 
 
Yes, I know grimoires exist, and I have seen a few in my time, and sometimes they make for curious reading, paperweights, and collectors of dust.  The existence of grimoires, peoples belief in Constantine, your diatribes on magick, the occult and unexplained mysteries...none if it has anything to do with a battle between two fictional characters.  Nothing, nada, zilch. 
 
You have some deep beliefs, and I am not going to argue with you about the reality and magick of the occult, because it has nothing to do with this argument.  Your main argument for Constantine winning is that he is "real" to you (and maybe some others), and that he has unseen abilities with "magick".  This is what I get out of your posts, and I am just going to let you have at it...but realize, Dresden would take this.  Feat versus feat (character showings and the facts of the battle - none of the metaphysical/reality/occult stuff you keep spouting), Dresden wins, and has shown more power. 
 
The problem is the costs of magic, Dresden fans read his books and he is like a Harry Potter without a care because there is not cosmic balance to bother him." 
Not entirely true bub, and it shows how much of Dresden you have actually read, but Constantine's stories are supposed to more of a realistic feel, whereas Dresden is more of a high fantasy meets modern times feel.  Hence, Dresden having more powerful showings and being the more powerful of the two. 
 
Look, whatever arguments you have about what books Constantine might have in real life...it doesn't matter.  It isn't real life.  It is fiction.  And again, this is a fictional battle between fictional characters, and has nothing to do with the occult, "real magick", so forth and so on.
 
And Crowley wasn't powerful.  Sorry to say it, but I call it as I see it.  Now, saying anything further, I would probably get insulting without meaning to, so I'll leave it be.  You want to go into an argument of feats in the comics versus Dresden's feats, let's have at it, but continuing the argument like you have, is silly.  Especially trying to bring real world beliefs and trying to apply them to a work of fiction.  "Reality" (depending on your beliefs in this case) has no bearing in a battle between two fictional characters.
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#27  Edited By Wyldsong
@Silkcuts said:
" @Buckshot:  Honesty a graphic novel, but honestly how deep have the Dresden fans read Constantine-wise, when Jenkins is never collected, Most of Ennis is out of print, Delano's is not fully collected, Snakes and Ladders is not easy to get a hold of as well. Constantine has magic, but because of how his character is the limit is "unknown", since he is set in real world, he is given the real world mentality of the costs of magic.  Remove that from him, you name it, he can do it.  That is where the Dresden fans don't see the power of Constantine.
 
Dresden didn't impress me, so I never cared to read more.  I prefer Cal McDonald and Gravel, over Dresden as well.  With the amount of comics dealing with the occult and the occult books I have read, Dresden's life story is less of a priority to me then Constantine's life should be for Dresden fans.  We can agree to disagree, because the fact is they are two difference magi and ignoring Johns Arcane knowledge and the actual application of it loads the argument against him.
 
Dresden is as scary to me as Doctor strange is in a fight.  Constantine scares me because one day he may show up in my bar.
 The screen shot from Snakes and Ladders
 The screen shot from Snakes and Ladders
If its real Magic, John wins.  Fake Magic, then I'll let you guys think what you want. "
Not real "magick".  Pen, paper, ink and a story being told, nothing more.
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#28  Edited By Ramenth

 Silkcuts, I'm quite confused here. You're citing Crowley as the reason Constantine would win. Now, it's been quite a while since I've read Hellblazer, so I may have forgotten something important, and I don't really read much Marvel so I'm not sure what I've missed, but it sounds like the argument you're making is that Constantine will win because the Magic in the series is based off of Alester Crowley's real writing.
 
 Being based on Crowley does not, in any way, shape, or form lend some sort of credence to a fictional universe. If anything it makes it significantly less believable given all the absolutely stupid stuff that Crowley wrote about. He may have some good points, true, but for the most part he's not what anyone should be calling a reliable source. Both Hellblazer and The Dresden Files are fictional. Neither is real. Drawing on real world sources, while interesting, does very little to establish any sort of convincing internal or external realism. 
  
 
However your entire point is completely invalid given that you're dismissing Dresden based on your reading of an at-best semicanonical prequel graphic novel. While it's true that Welcome to the Jungle is generally considered to be well written, it is not generally considered to be directly canon to the series, and certainly should not be taken as either Butcher's general quality of work or Dresden's standard story structure. The Dresden Files is a series of novels, not short comics.
 
 
Edit: If we're talking about 'Real magic' as you put it, with the implication that Constantine might be walking to your bar, then Dresden Wins. He's got half a foot of height on Constantine, and magic doesn't actually exist.

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#29  Edited By DocJude
@Wyldsong:@Wyldsong said:   

"John Constantine is one of the most powerful magi in all of comics"
Highly, highly doubtful and completely debatable.  Give us some proof to back this up, or read the below (Zatanna in the bottom left second scan):
 

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

 
As well, I am sure Doom, Dr. Strange, and a host of other comic sorcerers would beg to disagree...  
 One thing real quick, this has made me want to reread the Books of Magic, and I love Constantine for things like in the previous scan.

& yet you have completely missed the point. 
"The best place to hide something is right out in the open. No one ever thinks to look there." - Robert Anton Wilson
 
Has Dresden manipulated "God" into setting his will aside for the moment and instead doing what he wants? No, but John Constantine has. John has manipulated many demons, & not just minor demons, Lords of Hell, serious mover & shaker Devils. John Constantine plays the Powers against each other like his own personal game of solitaire. There is much more to the Constantine than meets the normal everyday eye. Don't mistake a lack of ham-handed vulgar magical displays and fireballs for a lack of power and ability. The reason he gets one and two and three over on the most powerful beings in the DC universe is because they con't to underestimate him over and over and over even while he laughs in their faces....
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#30  Edited By Wyldsong
@DocJude said:

& yet you have completely missed the point.  "The best place to hide something is right out in the open. No one ever thinks to look there." - Robert Anton Wilson  Has Dresden manipulated "God" into setting his will aside for the moment and instead doing what he wants? No, but John Constantine has. John has manipulated many demons, & not just minor demons, Lords of Hell, serious mover & shaker Devils. John Constantine plays the Powers against each other like his own personal game of solitaire. There is much more to the Constantine than meets the normal everyday eye. Don't mistake a lack of ham-handed vulgar magical displays and fireballs for a lack of power and ability. The reason he gets one and two and three over on the most powerful beings in the DC universe is because they con't to underestimate him over and over and over even while he laughs in their faces.... "
Man, I thought we were going to let this thread die...I don't think anyone is arguing that Constantine isn't sly and tricky (Dresden is as well, keep that in mind...read the Dresden Files...great novels).  He is a good manipulator, but this isn't a battle of who is better at manipulating others.  If they come head to head in a magical battle, Dresden takes it (we are in the Battles Forum after all).   
 
Now, if we are talking about who is trying to manipulate the devil or demons, then sure, this argument might go another way, and I am NOT disagreeing with you over Constantine on the manipulation front (but I restate again, Dresden is no lightweight in the manipulation game...and while he may have not manipulated god, in his "universe", god isn't a being to be manipulated, but has been shown to lend Dresden and his ilk a hand).  The ability to manipulate these beings is great and all, and while it makes for a great story, the accessibility of these beings in each character's respective universes is vastly different, the flavors (if you will) of the tales being told are different, as is their portrayal of magic.  Constantine is more of a "realistic  one", which lacks a lot of the "ham-handed vulgar magic displays and fireballs".  Dresden's magic is closer to high fantasy, with more spectacular displays, but don't think Dresden is all about tossing fireballs, because he isn't. 
 
You quote my post and say that I have missed the point...all the while missing the point yourself.  That post with the scans shows a little of both of our points.  Constantine has a reputation, and was able to use that and a quick tongue to get them out of a potentially bad situation.  And, it was pointed out that those things could have torn him limb from limb due to his lack of power.  If he had been able to turn around and blast all of them into oblivion, it would have gone completely against the grain of who and what Constantine is.  Constantine doesn't throw fireballs, and nor should he.  He doesn't survive by being the most powerful, he survives by being smart and lucky (the same could be said for Dresden, but it wouldn't be entirely out of his character for him to blast someone with magic -- he is closer to a high fantasy wizard after all).
 
Being in a battle thread with a wizard who needs an artifact to save lives - a wizard who consistently puts his life on the line to save others - I just don't see Constantine winning a fight with someone like this who has shown more magical power.  Personally, I think the battle would end up being a better discussion piece if another magic user had been used in place of either Constantine or Dresden, but the scale of magical ability in this one is a little out of whack. 
 
Something else...you talk about him manipulating these forces while laughing all the way? I need to dig up my copy of Dangerous Habits...awesome Hellblazer tale, and I recommend anyone who hasn't read it to pick it up...if memory serves (and I will back it up with scans when I find it)...Constantine wasn't laughing all the way.  He knew it was a dangerous and stupid game to play.  It is much less a personal game of solitaire as you put it, and more akin to walking a tightrope.
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#31  Edited By Wyldsong

And, has promised...scans from one of favorite Hellblazer tales: 
 

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided
Not exactly laughing all the way now, is he? 
 
Now, don't get me wrong, this is not to disparage the character, who pulled off something most would never be able to do...but he is not some carefree spirit doing it all willy-nilly as some here would seem to think.
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#32  Edited By DocJude
@Wyldsong: 
You know that Constantine is basically the Eternal Trickster, right? All of his reincarnations are in the same family and basically the same person, regardless of gender. Just because he's a little self-deprecating sometimes doesn't mean he isn't doing exactly what he wants & having a ball...
Also, the OP said that John Constantine had prep time. That alone means that this conflict is going to be a lot closer than many here seem to think. One of his most misunderstood skills is his ability to tap into the "Synchronicity Freeway", as Boston Brand put it ("He's riding the synchronicity freeway, and so everything just falls into place; time, movement, even distance just sit up and beg for him").  Serendipity, Luck, getting his way, that's sort of his bag. And his cunning is unsurpassed, so what little he has he can put to optimum and unforeseen benefit. This makes Constantine somewhat like Longshot or Domino, & this has to be brought into the discussion in order to get an accurate assessment of the conflict. Doctor Occult: "John Constantine . . . Yes. He dances on the edge of the known, like a crazy man, pitting himself against heaven and the pit, because he is John Constantine; and because he is alive.

Quote from Vertigo Secret Files: Hellblazer: "Constantine rips up a floorboard to feed the fire. "Why?" I ask. "Why does a man of power choose to live in shit like this?"
"Power's not all it's cracked up to be," he murmers.
 
When we compare Dresden & Constantine, it's almost like comparing skill vs performance. I don't really care what kind of overt magical spells & tricks that Dresden can pull off, the odds are that John will have him by the short hairs in the end. John's main issue (and I call it an issue, not a weakness) is that he's intimately aware that overt non-hedge magic always costs more than the caster is willing to pay. If he's in some kind of situation or world where that cost ceases to exist (either for him because the the benefits outweigh the cost, or just period), then John will be casting some gnarly combat spells. Just because he is reticent to do it doesn't mean that he can't. That's like saying that because Professor Xavier doesn't melt brains, that means that he can't. No, he absolutely can, he just doesn't. 
Comparing John Constantine and Harry Dresden is comparing two magical paradigms, one with consequences VS one without. With that in mind I think this comparison is a bit invalid.  
 
Either way, I see this like comparing Dumbledore to Fizban. They're both magic-users but things just don't match up enough for a quality comparison.
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#33  Edited By SteveRodgers

constentine wins because if you think about it he's been through a lot of shit. he goes through hell on a daily bases. so who's to say he dosent win? i have to say John.

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#34  Edited By Wyldsong
@DocJude said:
" @Wyldsong: 
You know that Constantine is basically the Eternal Trickster, right? All of his reincarnations are in the same family and basically the same person, regardless of gender. Just because he's a little self-deprecating sometimes doesn't mean he isn't doing exactly what he wants & having a ball...
Also, the OP said that John Constantine had prep time. That alone means that this conflict is going to be a lot closer than many here seem to think. One of his most misunderstood skills is his ability to tap into the "Synchronicity Freeway", as Boston Brand put it ("He's riding the synchronicity freeway, and so everything just falls into place; time, movement, even distance just sit up and beg for him").  Serendipity, Luck, getting his way, that's sort of his bag. And his cunning is unsurpassed, so what little he has he can put to optimum and unforeseen benefit. This makes Constantine somewhat like Longshot or Domino, & this has to be brought into the discussion in order to get an accurate assessment of the conflict. Doctor Occult: "John Constantine . . . Yes. He dances on the edge of the known, like a crazy man, pitting himself against heaven and the pit, because he is John Constantine; and because he is alive."  When we compare Dresden & Constantine, it's almost like comparing skill vs performance. I don't really care what kind of overt magical spells & tricks that Dresden can pull off, the odds are that John will have him by the short hairs in the end. John's main issue (and I call it an issue, not a weakness) is that he's intimately aware that overt non-hedge magic always costs more than the caster is willing to pay. If he's in some kind of situation or world where that cost ceases to exist (either for him because the the benefits outweigh the cost, or just period), then John will be casting some gnarly combat spells. Just because he is reticent to do it doesn't mean that he can't. That's like saying that because Professor Xavier doesn't melt brains, that means that he can't. No, he absolutely can, he just doesn't.  Comparing John Constantine and Harry Dresden is comparing two magical paradigms, one with consequences VS one without. With that in mind I think this comparison is a bit invalid.    Either way, I see this like comparing Dumbledore to Fizban. They're both magic-users but things just don't match up enough for a quality comparison. "
On  your last statement, I agree completely, and I said as much in an earlier post.  I think if you replace one of the two for someone else, it would be a better match up, and you could get a quality comparison.   These are two different flavors of magic use with different flavors of story, and how things ultimately are dealt with.
 
As for synchronicity, if you read the Dresden Files, you'll see Dresden has his fair share of luck and the supernatural on his side.  Such is the way with heroes in most tales, Constantine just got labeled with a supernatural ability for it.  
 
As for skill versus performance, they both have their fair share of both...Dresden has a way of turning his foes plans against them and performing some cunning and spectacular feats just when you think he is down for the count.  You also talk about Constantine having prep, Dresden has it as well.  And while Constantine might be able to pull off some impressive magic if he were given less consequences, he does have those consequences, besides, Dresden has more practice in those types of magics.  Besides, we are getting into the, "Well if Constantine had to, or he is reticent to, etc., etc", which does nothing to further the cause.  All we have to truly work with is what he has actually done with his magic, his feats, which is the basis for most battles in these forums.
 
Let's also realize, that magic in Dresden's reality isn't entirely without consequence, and it can be taxing.  He's not going to be all willy-nilly free for all just blast it with his spells.  He's not this, "Well, my magic will get me out of any situation, let's blast something with a fireball" kind of character, which seems to be the impression quite a few people have of him.  Dresden is good, resourceful and d@m^ smart.  I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about who and what this character is, and just what he is willing to sacrifice and do to save others (which the OP stated this artifact has the potential to do).  Dresden has gotten the drop on some ancient and powerful foes, and dances that edge in his own way.  He's not entirely about the overt magic and tricks...though he has pulled those off.
 
And I know I am defending Dresden in this fight quite a bit, but don't get me wrong, I love Constantine.  I know he is capable and skilled.  I just don't see this as a fair, quality match up, and I don't see Constantine having Dresden by the short hairs in this.  Having read my fair share of both (though I am currently refreshing myself on Constantine), I don't see Constantine taking this fight, eternal trickster or no.  Dresden has an iron will, and has put himself through hell and back to do what needs to be done to finish the job and save lives.  Knowing what I know of this character, Constantine won't be playing him off of anything else.
 
And I have to heavily disagree that sometimes Constantine is a "little self-depreciating".  While he may do what he wants, and may have a ball at times, I think those scans show his human side, and that he does worry and realize he may have to face some consequences one day.  I stand by the fact that it is less a game of solitaire and more akin to walking a tightrope.  He's damn good at it, but it is a tightrope nonetheless without a safety net.
 
Like you stated, we do have two different magical paradigms, but I won't say one with with consequences and one without, because that that is not entirely an accurate assessment.  It's more of a comparison of something more akin to high fantasy style magic  VS "real world" style magic. 
 
This may just have to remain a point of contention, because I can't see any argument anyone has brought forth that is going to change my mind, nor have I seen where anyone else is changing their mind.  I know both characters pretty well, I am just wondering how well others know Dresden beyond a few issues of a comic or not at all and are going with the idea that he is nothing more than a Constantine or "insert wizards name here who can cast magic without any consequences" knock off.
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#35  Edited By DocJude

Pls don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying and I agree to some extent, I've read some of the Dresden comics, 1.5 of the books and seen a couple episodes of the show, I appreciate his abilities, they are definitely substantial (I will admit that I'm just not a fan, I find the writing a little trite). However, I've been a John Constantine fan since he showed up in Swamp Thing, & after all of these years I just don't see him going down.

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#36  Edited By Wyldsong
@DocJude said:
" Pls don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying and I agree to some extent, I've read some of the Dresden comics, 1.5 of the books and seen a couple episodes of the show, I appreciate his abilities, they are definitely substantial (I will admit that I'm just not a fan, I find the writing a little trite). However, I've been a John Constantine fan since he showed up in Swamp Thing, & after all of these years I just don't see him going down. "
I won't fault you and I understand your passion for the character.  We can agree to disagree here, argue the other threads, and leave this one be=)
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#37  Edited By Goldfinch

@Silkcuts said:

The screen shot from Snakes and Ladders
The screen shot from Snakes and Ladders
@Buckshot: Honesty a graphic novel, but honestly how deep have the Dresden fans read Constantine-wise, when Jenkins is never collected, Most of Ennis is out of print, Delano's is not fully collected, Snakes and Ladders is not easy to get a hold of as well. Constantine has magic, but because of how his character is the limit is "unknown", since he is set in real world, he is given the real world mentality of the costs of magic. Remove that from him, you name it, he can do it. That is where the Dresden fans don't see the power of Constantine.

Dresden didn't impress me, so I never cared to read more. I prefer Cal McDonald and Gravel, over Dresden as well. With the amount of comics dealing with the occult and the occult books I have read, Dresden's life story is less of a priority to me then Constantine's life should be for Dresden fans. We can agree to disagree, because the fact is they are two difference magi and ignoring Johns Arcane knowledge and the actual application of it loads the argument against him.

Dresden is as scary to me as Doctor strange is in a fight. Constantine scares me because one day he may show up in my bar.
If its real Magic, John wins. Fake Magic, then I'll let you guys think what you want.

Do you know perhaps when exactly John Constantine (with prep and without help) beat the omnipotent and omniscient Presence twice, in what comic book issues? "Beatbooks" said this, but unfortunately he is not available right now on the forum.

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#38  Edited By Silkcuts
@Goldfinch: I am not sure the context in what is meant, one could refer to the role John Constantine played in Crisis where he taught the Swamp Thing and it altered the balance of good and evil, I think that is issue #40 or 44  or something along the lines of that from Saga of Swamp Thing.  Another could be when he beat the three lords of Hell in Ennis run, that reveal is the climax of Rate at the Gates if Hell.  I am sorry I don't have a clear answer for you.  Another possible reference that guy is making is the end of Delano's run when John merges with his twin, this changed him because he removed the Golden Boy from this plain of existence until Diggle played with that plot point in his run.  We can also consider the creation of " Genesis" to be in the pages of Hellblazer because Chantinelle or "Ellie" (Demon) and an angel, "Tali", had a baby.  Genesis is the child of an Angel and Demon.  In the pages of Hellblazer Ellie has be protected from both sides with sigils for years.  So Maybe that is the reference to beating omnipotent and omniscient presences.  Another possible reference is John's role in "In the Dark" from JLD, MX is omnipotent when she plays with the cards and so far John played the role to shift what seemed her plan.
 
Hope any of that helps.
Cheers.
 - Silkcuts
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#39  Edited By GabrielTDO

honestly, i can't say who'd win, I've read everything to do with Dresden (all the shorts stories, and I've seen the crappy tv show) while in comparison I've only read maybe two dozen or so of Constantine's comics. So yeah my view is biased ,but i have to go with Dresden in a pure fight, Dresden scares monsters cause he walks into their homes or places of power and still kills them (he'll be the first to say it was dumb luck or that he had good allies backing him up, but all they usually do is get him there so it would be a one-on-one fight). Before you down Dresden please read the novels not the graphic novels since those are very watered down in comparison to books, and please don't use the tv show as reference.

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#40  Edited By jeanroygrant

@Xavier St. Cloud said:

Harry would win.
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beatboks1

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#41  Edited By beatboks1

Harry is the better mage no question. but John is just a tricky SOB who would get the better of Harry in most situations. Harry tends to luck his way through a lot, John has the number of the demon/ protagonist he's up against most of the time.

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Soulstealer

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#42  Edited By Soulstealer

@beatboks1 said:

Harry is the better mage no question. but John is just a tricky SOB who would get the better of Harry in most situations. Harry tends to luck his way through a lot, John has the number of the demon/ protagonist he's up against most of the time.

I'm not sure that I'd call much of what Harry does luck. Heck, if anything it's the exact opposite. Harry gets surprised all the time by things he couldn't possibly have prepared for (mostly because they are things he either doesn't realize exist or that he has no idea to believe they have a grudge against him, his friends, or his city) and yet often times he manages to either bravdo his way through, strike deals with things of power beyond human understanding, skirt around the white Council's rules to do something that really would save the day and yet he might still get executed for doing, or just take enough punishment long enough for one of his allies to help him.

Do I think that Constantine could potentially manipulate Harry? Yes, yes I do. However I think this is down playing Dresden more than a little. More often than not he's on the defensive against his threats so it's a little iffy in my opinion to compare defense to offense as if they're the same thing.

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beatboks1

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#43  Edited By beatboks1

@Soulstealer: Most of what you just said was what I meant, so maybe "luck" wasn't the right word. In a straight up magic battle Harry would win, where as if they are aware of each other and coming at each other I see John taking it. that's all I really meant. Personally I love both characters.

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#44  Edited By GabrielTDO

the original post says no foreknowledge of each other so in this particular instance i say it leans towards Harry.

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addikhabbo

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Constantine took Flyboy down. PS: This flyboy took down an evil God.
Constantine took Flyboy down. PS: This flyboy took down an evil God.

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TheThe

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Harry Dresden, for all the reasons stated by @wyldsong.

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ETMaxxorZero

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It depends is Harry going all out IE. no restrictions, can they use friends, and for those who say Dresden is only human... are you sure?

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Vonstantine

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Please don't label me as a fanboy because of my name. But we don't know how far and capable John is with prep. As much as knowledgable, resourceful, and cunning Dresden is...

Constantine's synchronicity ability is just another name for PIS.

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Wdc

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Constantine took Flyboy down. PS: This flyboy took down an evil God.
Constantine took Flyboy down. PS: This flyboy took down an evil God.

Because he's weak to magic. Dresden isn't. In fact, he has wards and hax to defend against it.

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AlphaQ

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Straight fight: Dresden.

Prep battle: Probably Constantine, but unlike, say, Doom who can tinker in his back room for a month and make a plot device Constantine's prep is about stronger external entities and is therefore circumstantial. Whereas we know what Harry could get with prep; the power the alter the nature of the universe fundamentally or threaten Mab, who can warp reality with willpower and cause the Earth to turn into an ice-cube just by existing and interfering with it.