Well, looks like there's a larger influx of toxicity in DB threads lately... I can only imagine where this will end up leading...
well, because of downplayers like @zokologue3 and drunkhc... this is why I feel like giving up on this
Not answering the argument
Leaving thinking "Well they are dragon ball haters, anyway, so they must be wrong. I won the debate and i know it"
Coming back and checkking the last comment
The last comment is not related to what i said. "Well screw it i'll just use it, anyway, as an excuse to taunt the dragon ball haters."
no, it's because of the stupid, unrealistic downplay you and DrunkHC seem to be doing on every single Dragon Ball thread.
Then by your logic Sailor Moon takes a long time to transform and Jiren can just kill her while transforming.
Everyone should try to be fair and objective. Which also means that you really shouldn't have tried to use that fan calc for speed that was obviously untrue.
@zokologue3: sailor moon has a lot hax as far as I can remember, not just the speed that is favoring it.
I know, i just brought out the speed to show that dragon ball characters can't dodge their attacks.
now how can you claim Sailor Moon's MFTL+ but Dyspo is only supersonic and not apply powerscaling to him? That's a double standard. Sailor Moon's speed doesn't count either unless you use an official statement, while Dyspo is lightspeed and that should be faster, so he wins. And Jiren > Dyspo. Seriously, that's how your logic goes.
@zokologue3: sailor moon has a lot hax as far as I can remember, not just the speed that is favoring it.
I know, i just brought out the speed to show that dragon ball characters can't dodge their attacks.
now how can you claim Sailor Moon's MFTL+ but Dyspo is only supersonic and not apply powerscaling to him? That's a double standard. Sailor Moon's speed doesn't count either unless you use an official statement, while Dyspo is lightspeed and that should be faster, so he wins. And Jiren > Dyspo. Seriously, that's how your logic goes.
Panel to panel traveling from outside to the center of the galaxy. That is massively FTL.
@zokologue3: sailor moon has a lot hax as far as I can remember, not just the speed that is favoring it.
I know, i just brought out the speed to show that dragon ball characters can't dodge their attacks.
now how can you claim Sailor Moon's MFTL+ but Dyspo is only supersonic and not apply powerscaling to him? That's a double standard. Sailor Moon's speed doesn't count either unless you use an official statement, while Dyspo is lightspeed and that should be faster, so he wins. And Jiren > Dyspo. Seriously, that's how your logic goes.
Panel to panel traveling from outside to the center of the galaxy. That is massively FTL.
Yes, that's the scan which puts the sailor senshi into the billions but the point is this: Whis does that on a casual basis; he can fly from Beerus's planet to the Earth in roughly 30 minutes, can exit Universe 7 and go to the Kaioshin Realm within a matter of minutes etc. Beerus is 3/4 the speed of Whis, and Jiren has been stated to be on par with a God of Destruction. Which means Jiren should also be at least 3/4 the speed of Whis, whose travel speed is at least 72 quadrillions of times FTL.
The thing is Zoko doesn't understand basic powerscaling.
@namiii: Can not use super dragon ball manga it goes against the canon
The Manga is if anything, more Canon than the Anime.
It's far more consistent, better written, overseen by Toriyama's successor (and Toriyama himself chances are) infact DBS goes of filler scenes from DBZ which are non-canon.
When it comes down to it DBS Manga and Anime are both Canon interpretations of Toriyama's script.
Yes, that's the scan which puts the sailor senshi into the billions but the point is this: Whis does that on a casual basis; he can fly from Beerus's planet to the Earth in roughly 30 minutes, can exit Universe 7 and go to the Kaioshin Realm within a matter of minutes etc. Beerus is 3/4 the speed of Whis, and Jiren has been stated to be on par with a God of Destruction. Which means Jiren should also be at least 3/4 the speed of Whis, whose travel speed is at least 72 quadrillions of times FTL.
The thing is Zoko doesn't understand basic powerscaling.
Where does it state how far Beerus' planet is from Earth? Where does it state that Beerus' can travel at 3/4 of Whis' special travel mode? Where does it state the distance of the Kai Realm is even a physical distance? Not everything automatically powerscales.
@drunkhc: then how strong is Sailor Moon by your logic? How fast is she? Remember you have to prove by using Naoko's words, not what other sources say.
Yes, that's the scan which puts the sailor senshi into the billions but the point is this: Whis does that on a casual basis; he can fly from Beerus's planet to the Earth in roughly 30 minutes, can exit Universe 7 and go to the Kaioshin Realm within a matter of minutes etc. Beerus is 3/4 the speed of Whis, and Jiren has been stated to be on par with a God of Destruction. Which means Jiren should also be at least 3/4 the speed of Whis, whose travel speed is at least 72 quadrillions of times FTL.
The thing is Zoko doesn't understand basic powerscaling.
Where does it state how far Beerus' planet is from Earth? Where does it state that Beerus' can travel at 3/4 of Whis' special travel mode? Where does it state the distance of the Kai Realm is even a physical distance? Not everything automatically powerscales.
1. Apparently it's 35 minutes away from the Earth (not 28, sorry) and two hours and 10 minutes away from the Nameless Planet (the venue used for U6 vs U7) by using Whis's speed. The Earth is located on the edge of the universe, and Beerus' planet isn't. But that's all I could find for now. Whis's speed feat is based on something else which I am trying to find rn.
2. In episode 2 of DBS.
3. "The Kaiōshin Realm exists around the circumference of the entirety of the universe, on a fixed cycle, akin to a satellite. The realm is said to inaccessible to all life forms outside of the gods of the universe." - from some DB wikia
So just like Goku, Whis and co. were able to travel to the Nameless Planet, they should be able to go to the Kaioshin Realm as well.
> Fourthly Total rape of Cosmos, Intangibility, Godly Regen, BFR, Lambda Power that erases a Conceptual entity and the hax of all the Sailor senshi of the galaxy ect...
she still Stomp via hax and versality even if she is Galaxy
> Fourthly Total rape of Cosmos, Intangibility, Godly Regen, BFR, Lambda Power that erases a Conceptual entity and the hax of all the Sailor senshi of the galaxy ect...
she still Stomp via hax and versality even if she is Galaxy
Sailor Cosmos can't do anything to Jiren because:
1) Her regeneration is ignored by attacks like Hakai, Final Explosion, Spirit Bomb and God Split Cut. Jiren is above all of their users.
2) Hakai > any existence erasure attack in SM
3) Beerus can hurt and eliminate intangible beings and Jiren is on par with him if not stronger
4) Sailor Chaos isn't a concept.
5) Jiren is way swifter than Sailor Moon so she wouldn't even be able to hax him in the first place.
> First, it resists erasures much better than all those in DBS (Metalia, Death Phantom, Nehellenia ...)
> Secondly Erasure in DBS = Erase from existance, SM regen even when its concept of existance (which can not be erased normally) is erased, Mid Godly Regen >>>>>> Everything in DB
> Third, Chaos is the Primordial Void so yeah, it's a concept
> Fourthly, Quintillon Time FTL so ..... yeah
but I'm leaving, I see that the DB downplay and SM downplay is present here ....
> First, it resists erasures much better than all those in DBS (Metalia, Death Phantom, Nehellenia ...)
> Secondly Erasure in DBS = Erase from existance, SM regenere even when its concept of existance (which can not be erased normally) is erased, Mid Godly Regen >>>>>> Everything in DB
> Third, Chaos is the Primordial Void so yeah, it's a concept
> Fourthly, Quintillon Time FTL so ..... yeah
1) No,.
2) No. Hakai ignores mid-godly regen that's for sure. And I'd bet so does Goku Black's God Split Cut because it cuts through space-time. Spirit Bomb can likely do that as well as seen when it erased Kid Buu. Lastly, Zeno erased Frost separately from his universe, with no chance of him coming back.
3) That isn't enough proof she's a concept.
4) Sailor Moon is 800 billions of times FTL in travel speed, her reaction speed is unknown, but the attack speed... that 1.4 quintillion feat was a very high-end one, I'd bet it was way more than one second. This is comparable to Vegeta's ki blasts for example and say nothing about the speed she charges her attacks with for example.
On the other hand Beerus should be a low-balled 293 quads FTL in reaction speed, calced on the same site.
The problem is that Jiren can just use his short burst speed, go to SM before she can even think, and punch her in the face and one-shot. That's it.
@zokologue3: I was under the impression from other battles that advertisements can't be used to prove or disprove anything as they aren't considered canon, correct me if I'm wrong.
2) No. Hakai ignores mid-godly regen that's for sure. And I'd bet so does Goku Black's God Split Cut because it cuts through space-time. Spirit Bomb can likely do that as well as seen when it erased Kid Buu. Lastly, Zeno erased Frost separately from his universe, with no chance of him coming back.
Kid Buu hasn´t godly regeneration. At best he has mid-high.
Btw. since when Hakai has someone erased that is mid-godly? o.O
2) No. Hakai ignores mid-godly regen that's for sure. And I'd bet so does Goku Black's God Split Cut because it cuts through space-time. Spirit Bomb can likely do that as well as seen when it erased Kid Buu. Lastly, Zeno erased Frost separately from his universe, with no chance of him coming back.
Kid Buu hasn´t godly regeneration. At best he has mid-high.
Btw. since when Hakai has someone erased that is mid-godly? o.O
Won't Sailor Moon just ressurect if killed via conventional means? That's what I remember Lambda Power doing. Well, Hakai can ignore this, because it destroys the opponent's mind, soul and body at the same time, and can even be used to destroy the Galaxy Cauldron just in case (Beerus and Toppo can create a portal with Vice Shout via powerscaling from Buu, then land somewhere in space or on some planet in the case of Toppo, and charge a galactic core level attack that's strong enough to destroy it. Hakai also ensures the GC wouldn't be reborn once again, which isn't guaranteed if destroyed via a normal ki blast (I remember Galaxia saying a new cauldron would be reborn if the current one would get destroyed, but idk).
Since Lambda Power, Sailor Cosmos's Star Seed, and the Sailor Crystals all depend on the Galaxy Cauldron, Beerus Hakaing it would obliterate Sailor Moon with ease. And since SSB Goku also used Hakai in the manga, and considering Toppo knows it, I'm inclined to think Jiren can use Hakai as well.
Or Jiren can just destroy Sailor Cosmos and the entire universe with her, and after that he will still be standing because he is able to survive in the void as proven by all characters who participate in the Tournament of Power. That also gets past mid-godly regen.
I remember Kid Buu needing to be destroyed on an atomic scale in order to be truly defeated.
2) No. Hakai ignores mid-godly regen that's for sure. And I'd bet so does Goku Black's God Split Cut because it cuts through space-time. Spirit Bomb can likely do that as well as seen when it erased Kid Buu. Lastly, Zeno erased Frost separately from his universe, with no chance of him coming back.
Kid Buu hasn´t godly regeneration. At best he has mid-high.
Btw. since when Hakai has someone erased that is mid-godly? o.O
Won't Sailor Moon just ressurect if killed via conventional means? That's what I remember Lambda Power doing. Well, Hakai can ignore this, because it destroys the opponent's mind, soul and body at the same time, and can even be used to destroy the Galaxy Cauldron just in case (Beerus and Toppo can create a portal with Vice Shout via powerscaling from Buu, then land somewhere in space or on some planet in the case of Toppo, and charge a galactic core level attack that's strong enough to destroy it. Hakai also ensures the GC wouldn't be reborn once again, which isn't guaranteed if destroyed via a normal ki blast (I remember Galaxia saying a new cauldron would be reborn if the current one would get destroyed, but idk).
Since Lambda Power, Sailor Cosmos's Star Seed, and the Sailor Crystals all depend on the Galaxy Cauldron, Beerus Hakaing it would obliterate Sailor Moon with ease. And since SSB Goku also used Hakai in the manga, and considering Toppo knows it, I'm inclined to think Jiren can use Hakai as well.
I remember Kid Buu needing to be destroyed on an atomic scale in order to be truly defeated.
Well, you know SM better then me, but if the statement true (That Sailor Moon is mid-godly), then even Hakai can´t erase her, because even if you erased mind, sould and body at the same time, you came back. Also it is relevant, who erased SM. Zeno has the most powerfull kind of erase-power (I don´t even think it is Hakai). Beerus and the other Gods are next and then Guys like Toppo I don´t know if Jiren can use Hakai. With Toppo, he was the next candidate to be a god of destruction. Yes, Jiren is more powerfull then Toppo, but does he have that Hakai for sure?
Mid-Godly:Able to regenerate even after every aspect of the mind, body, soul, and consciousness, are erased from existence.
I think you talk about low-godly:
Low-Godly:Able to regenerate as long as your disembodied consciousness exists, such as in the form of your soul or mind, or from other realms.
I can´t remember that it was necessary to destroy the atomic level to kill Kid Boo. Then he should be "High"
I won´t say, Sailor Moon wins, because i don´t know much about her. But with the most what i read from the Battle-Wikis she is very powerfull. At least Sailor Cosmos.
Well, well, before we leave just one thing to say, SM mid Godly regen is something she had after being erased by the Galaxy cauldron (Soul, Body, and Life concepte aka Star seed), she does not depend on the Cauldron (This is silly since he erased be it) I remember this was debunk countless time before
Whether or not she could be destroyed by hakai would be a discussion for another battle since Jiren does not possess GoD erasure powers anyhow. He's stronger than Toppo and some of, if not all of, the gods of destruction. However, he is not a god of destruction so he does not possess the hakai power.
@zokologue3: sailor moon has a lot hax as far as I can remember, not just the speed that is favoring it.
I know, i just brought out the speed to show that dragon ball characters can't dodge their attacks.
now how can you claim Sailor Moon's MFTL+ but Dyspo is only supersonic and not apply powerscaling to him? That's a double standard. Sailor Moon's speed doesn't count either unless you use an official statement, while Dyspo is lightspeed and that should be faster, so he wins. And Jiren > Dyspo. Seriously, that's how your logic goes.
We've already scaled goku and hit from dyspo's sypersonic speed. Also, nothing in sailor moon contradicted the fact that was already established unlike dragon ball.
-People were saying "Goku can lift a planet", then came dragon ball super and contradicted them:
And before you say "Mageta was resisting vegeta", no, Mageta wasn't resisting him since he was caught by vegeta by surprise as shown in the first scan. And mageta's answer to vegeta's effrot was "...." which indicates that he found the situation awkward
-People used to say that "Goku is MFTL+" then came dragon ball super and contradicted them.
-You see? So unless there is a statement that contradict sailor moon's universe feats, we can't apply the same judgement to it as we did to DBS
Don't blame us. Blame dragon ball super. If it didn't exist, the z warriors would have won due to hype. It's dbs who low balled the z warriors, not us.
I think what many people are forgetting is that Dragon Ball is mainly a physical series, relying on martial arts, Sailor Moon relies on magic and cosmic powers, and I don't remember many characters in Dragon Ball having magic, let alone powers to rival Sailor Moon besides Zeno.
Jiren has surpassed time itself and shook an infinite Universe by powering up. Another impressive feat is he reality warped the visible spectrum from normal to red just by walking (notice Piccolo & Gohan clip - screen turned red for viewer). There's no way he is losing here.
@darkvortex15: Can he find a way to destroy her body and soul? If not, he has an very hard time beating her, if at all.
Here's her being melted into the galaxy cauldron, body, mind, and soul.
And yet later on thanks to Lambda Power, she regenerated from nothingness. If you're wondering, the best way to explain Lambda Power in the Sailor Moon manga is that it restores everything to the static "cosmos" basically reviving everything and everyone who died.
Unless Jiren has power like this or something more powerful, he's not getting rid of her.
Sailor Moon's regen is dependant on the Cauldron, she just received a new star seed via the Lambda Power. The GC was never destroyed in the manga so there isn't enough proof she doesn't depend on it. All beings in the galaxy depend on it, so should her.
And Jiren can still blow her up alongside the universe. I don't think SM has any answer to that.
@zokologue3: sailor moon has a lot hax as far as I can remember, not just the speed that is favoring it.
I know, i just brought out the speed to show that dragon ball characters can't dodge their attacks.
now how can you claim Sailor Moon's MFTL+ but Dyspo is only supersonic and not apply powerscaling to him? That's a double standard. Sailor Moon's speed doesn't count either unless you use an official statement, while Dyspo is lightspeed and that should be faster, so he wins. And Jiren > Dyspo. Seriously, that's how your logic goes.
We've already scaled goku and hit from dyspo's sypersonic speed.
Also, nothing in sailor moon contradicted the fact that was already established unlike dragon ball.
-People were saying "Goku can lift a planet", then came dragon ball super and contradicted them:
And before you say "Mageta was resisting vegeta", no, Mageta wasn't resisting him since he was caught by vegeta by surprise as shown in the first scan. And mageta's answer to vegeta's effrot was "...." which indicates that he found the situation awkward
-People used to say that "Goku is MFTL+" then came dragon ball super and contradicted them.
-You see? So unless there is a statement that contradict sailor moon's universe feats, we can't apply the same judgement to it as we did to DBS
Don't blame us. Blame dragon ball super. If it didn't exist, the z warriors would have won due to hype. It's dbs who low balled the z warriors, not us.
1) DBS characters were never meant to lift huge things in the first place. That's not the point of the show. That's the same Vegeta who can do this:
2) I told you before, that poster doesn't contradict anything, it's just marketing. Not only is it not anything canon from the anime or manga, but like I said before it's just a mixed poster (with One Piece too) to get them more views.
Sailor Moon's regen is dependant on the Cauldron, she just received a new star seed via the Lambda Power. The GC was never destroyed in the manga so there isn't enough proof she doesn't depend on it. All beings in the galaxy depend on it, so should her.
And Jiren can still blow her up alongside the universe. I don't think SM has any answer to that.
If you read the Sailor Moon manga you would know that the galaxy cauldron doesn't regenerate anything, it just creates star seeds, that's a common mistake.
The Lambda power was what allowed her to regenerate from nothingness, Guardian Cosmos even praises her for keeping her true form in the cauldron.
And Chaos's very presence was warping the very edges of space-time, so surviving universal attacks is nothing for her, Sailor Cosmos proves that.
You would also know that Sailor Moon's main power is infinite power and infinite rebirth thanks to the silver crystal.
Oh, and all this was when Usagi was only in her THIRD strongest form, with her other two forms still not yet unlocked.
So I find it very hard for anyone outside of Zeno having a chance against her.
Sailor Moon's regen is dependant on the Cauldron, she just received a new star seed via the Lambda Power. The GC was never destroyed in the manga so there isn't enough proof she doesn't depend on it. All beings in the galaxy depend on it, so should her.
And Jiren can still blow her up alongside the universe. I don't think SM has any answer to that.
If you read the Sailor Moon manga you would know that the galaxy cauldron doesn't regenerate anything, it just creates star seeds, that's a common mistake.
The Lambda power was what allowed her to regenerate from nothingness, Guardian Cosmos even praises her for keeping her true form in the cauldron.
And Chaos's very presence was warping the very edges of space-time, so surviving universal attacks is nothing for her, Sailor Cosmos proves that.
You would also know that Sailor Moon's main power is infinite power and infinite rebirth thanks to the silver crystal.
Oh, and all this was when Usagi was only in her THIRD strongest form, with her other two forms still not yet unlocked.
So I find it very hard for anyone outside of Zeno having a chance against her.
Then where does this "Lambda Power" come from? Isn't it powered by the Galaxy Cauldron? Or is it just an asspull?
I'd say the so-called infinite power and rebirth of the Silver Crystal is a NLF. If it isn't, then Jiren laughs at Chaos's feat since Toppo warped an entire dimension of infinite size just by transforming into his GoD form.
At best you could say Sailor Moon's crystal works like 17's infinite stamina.
In the Galaxy Cauldron Sailor Moon calls upon all the Star Seeds within, unleashing the great Lambda Power. The Lambda Power is the power that restores the entire Cosmos (I know the link doesn't work, don't worry) (Kodansha Translation: This is the Cosmos Crystal's ultimate Lambda Power, which restores everything to the static cosmos.) Lambda itself is the cosmological constant which comes from the idea that the universe is actually a static orderly unit, a singular thing as opposed to primordial chaos.
In Sailor Moon, all things, no matter the shape, size, or name have star seeds. The Sailor Senshi have special star seeds called Sailor Crystals.
The Silver Crystal is the Sailor Crystal of Usagi. What the Lantern Ring is to a Green Lantern and the Helm of Fate is to Doctor Fate, the Silver Crystal is to Usagi.
So again, what chance does Jiren have against her, she is the physical embodiment of the cosmos, of life itself, to kill her would mean to destroy the cosmos completely.
Don't want to forget, all of this info is thanks to a blogger called Friendly Neighborhood Imp, so as to give credit to the right person.
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