In my opinion, one of the things that may lead to many Dragon Ball's fans inaccurate opinion on Saint Seiya being all about "Hype" is that there is barely any melee fighting in the show compared to Dragon Ball.
If the show had a lot more of Seiya throwing hands instead of Meteor Fists, then the situation of this wouldn't be as bad.
Hey man, let's chill with the shots at Dragon Ball fanboys. (Regardless if some of them deserve it)
We represent the Saint Seiya side of this site, let's not make ourselves to be Neanderthals and be at the same level of the Dragon Ball fanboys.
A melee fight lasts a short time in the real world, in saint seiya the saints are physical fighters far superior to trained humans. In Dragon Ball the fights take a while because the fighters do not know how to finish the opponent are a bunch of incompetents.
The scans demonstrate FTL attack and short movement speed, which is already more than what Jiren has by canonical evidence, i.e., direct statements and actual feats. His only showing of FTL speed is traveling between planets in a short amount of time, which isn't even comparable to the Bronze Knight's feat of crossing Elysium. Of Jiren is really that fast in combat, there should be no issue with producing proof, yet even after 22 pages into this, there hasn't been an iota of that posted.
Death star has already given you proof of jiren beng ftl. To quote him
Travel Speed=/=Combat Speed and I will still say it time to time again because I don't run on hype and misinterpretations from feats which aren't meant for what people claim, even including wikis because they think Travel Speed=Combat Speed. I haven't got a single evidence that they are much faster than light in actual combat. Seiya verse lacks DC, Physical and Combat speeds to compete with Jiren. Though Travel wise they are faster which is not much help in relevant combat except for escaping.
And there are statements in the verse which suggests their actual combat is just slightly above light speed.
Second of all Jiren doesn't need much feats, he already blitzed Dyspo in both anime and Manga someone who almost blitzes a God of Destruction who has MFTL+ reaction and combat feats.
Even scaling at this point suggests Jiren is at the very least in the MFTL+ combat ballpark.
Dyspo is FTL and Jiren has blitzes him. What more proof do you want?
The scans demonstrate FTL attack and short movement speed, which is already more than what Jiren has by canonical evidence, i.e., direct statements and actual feats. His only showing of FTL speed is traveling between planets in a short amount of time, which isn't even comparable to the Bronze Knight's feat of crossing Elysium. Of Jiren is really that fast in combat, there should be no issue with producing proof, yet even after 22 pages into this, there hasn't been an iota of that posted.
@TheDeathstar has already given you proof of jiren beng ftl. To quote him
Travel Speed=/=Combat Speed and I will still say it time to time again because I don't run on hype and misinterpretations from feats which aren't meant for what people claim, even including wikis because they think Travel Speed=Combat Speed. I haven't got a single evidence that they are much faster than light in actual combat. Seiya verse lacks DC, Physical and Combat speeds to compete with Jiren. Though Travel wise they are faster which is not much help in relevant combat except for escaping.
And there are statements in the verse which suggests their actual combat is just slightly above light speed.
Second of all Jiren doesn't need much feats, he already blitzed Dyspo in both anime and Manga someone who almost blitzes a God of Destruction who has MFTL+ reaction and combat feats.
Even scaling at this point suggests Jiren is at the very least in the MFTL+ combat ballpark.
Dyspo is FTL and Jiren has blitzes him. What more proof do you want?
The fact that Chronos surpasses the Olympians means nothing, his downsplayer is ridiculous, the translation of the moon is wrong, you are very much a hater ridiculous.
Usually when someone posts scans, they elaborate on the point their trying to convey to everyone. Because what? Chronos is the God of Time? Because he can control time and nobody else...that means the Saint Seiya Universe is weak? I'm not seeing the point your trying to say.
@magnus_carlsen3: The evidence of Jiren actually blitzing Dyspo for starters. Then confirmation proving Dyspo's FTL speed is related to combat, since apparently scans showing and stating much faster than light combat for Saint Seiya characters isn't valid evidence to some of the Jiren supporters in this thread.
The fight against Misty happened at the beginning of the manga, you are a retard. A character of the same race of Mu much weaker than the golden telesport an entire army, Mu telesport Ikki of another dimension.
@magnus_carlsen3: The evidence of Jiren actually blitzing Dyspo for starters. Then confirmation proving Dyspo's FTL speed is related to combat, since apparently scans showing and stating much faster than light combat for Saint Seiya characters isn't valid evidence to some of the Jiren supporters in this thread.
Dyspo FTL is related to combat because at one point he is blitzing Hit and Golden Frieza in their combat battle. There are combat in which Golden Frieza is matching Dyspo FTL speed and Jiren is way faster than Golden Frieza.
Odysseus in life was a healer not a warrior he was only a saint of silver, the golden saints were only children nor had dominated the cosmos yet, Odysseus did not even wear his cloth, the silver saint died from giving so much blood to others, not from the volcano explosion. Like I said before, you're just a retard.
Staying posting scenes of a silver saint without his cloth that is not even a warrior is rather a healer wounding himself with a giant lava explosion in a Seiya thread wearing the Sagittarius cloth ......
@magnus_carlsen3: The evidence of Jiren actually blitzing Dyspo for starters. Then confirmation proving Dyspo's FTL speed is related to combat, since apparently scans showing and stating much faster than light combat for Saint Seiya characters isn't valid evidence to some of the Jiren supporters in this thread.
Dyspo FTL is related to combat because at one point he is blitzing Hit and Golden Frieza in their combat battle. There are combat in which Golden Frieza is matching Dyspo FTL speed and Jiren is way faster than Golden Frieza.
My issue with going this route here is that others have attempted to argue the Saints lacking confirmed feats or statements in certain aspects of speed - in this case reaction - and scaling their reaction spewd from other Knights who are confirmed to be MFTL in combat is dubious, since we don't know if they're always using this speed. Dyspo was only said to have surpassed the speed of light through repeated battles by another character from his universe and in the episode spoilers, the speed he was blitzing Golden Freeza and Gohan with was only LS:
So if we take the light-speed stuff for Saint Seiya literally, then out of fairness, the same should apply for Dyspo. Again, I wouldn't have an issue scaling Jiren to FTL speeds under ordinary circumstances, but since that logic apparently doesn't fly here for Seiya, I don't see why it should with Jiren.
@drunkhc: Take it easy on the insults, man. Don't get yourself banned over obvious troll accounts who are trying to bait you. Just ignore them or call a mod.
@magnus_carlsen3: The evidence of Jiren actually blitzing Dyspo for starters. Then confirmation proving Dyspo's FTL speed is related to combat, since apparently scans showing and stating much faster than light combat for Saint Seiya characters isn't valid evidence to some of the Jiren supporters in this thread.
Dyspo FTL is related to combat because at one point he is blitzing Hit and Golden Frieza in their combat battle. There are combat in which Golden Frieza is matching Dyspo FTL speed and Jiren is way faster than Golden Frieza.
My issue with going this route here is that others have attempted to argue the Saints lacking confirmed feats or statements in certain aspects of speed - in this case reaction - and scaling their reaction spewd from other Knights who are confirmed to be MFTL in combat is dubious, since we don't know if they're always using this speed. Dyspo was only said to have surpassed the speed of light through repeated battles by another character from his universe and in the episode spoilers, the speed he was blitzing Golden Freeza and Gohan with was only LS:
So if we take the light-speed stuff for Saint Seiya literally, then out of fairness, the same should apply for Dyspo. Again, I wouldn't have an issue scaling Jiren to FTL speeds under ordinary circumstances, but since that logic apparently doesn't fly here for Seiya, I don't see why it should with Jiren.
Against Hit, it was mentioned that Dyspo is at FTL in their combat and he can make it even faster. Against Golden Frieza, it was implied that Dyspo is using his best speed technique, so it won't make sense that he is only at light speed against Golden Frieza in their combat using his super maximum light speed. What is a super maximum light speed compare to light speed? There is no such thing as super maximum light speed. If you surpassed light speed then it is FTL. I believe what the authors are trying to imply is that this super maximum is MFTL.
I have forgotten it. What is the feat(or statements) that confirmed that knights are MFTL at combat?
lol so much for their golden cloth's durability, specially against penetration... (something i was saying before)"
Wow. So you're now going to follow what other low Dragon Ball Fanboys are doing and Cherry-Pick manga scans from random Google searches in a desperate attempt to lowball a series you barely know? Fantastic. Great move on your end instead of presenting feasible arguments for Biden. Welcome to the club of people that real debaters can't stand on this site, hope you enjoy your stay. But one thing I will always say is that Context >>> Cherry Picked Scans and I'll show you why.
"So, gold saint in armor vs ice bolt = ice bolt
i'd like to see how this one is going to be justified...."
Instead of saying "UgHH IT'S JUST ICE-DESU!! HE WEAKKKK", have you ever thought to yourself who was the man who shot the Taurus Saint? It was Suikyo. A man, in which Bronze Saint Ikki said this:
Ikki: (This man's strength is greater than any of the Gold Saints I've met until now.)
This was after Suikyo fought Ikki. (Ikki superior to the Gold Saints btw so that makes his word mean a lot more) And Ikki literally admitted him being vastly stronger than the rest of the Gold Saints.
And better yet, you've seem to have forgotten there was something called Atomic Manipulation, and if a Saint raises their Cosmo high enough to support that Hax, they can break anything. And Suikyo didn't even break Ox's Gold Cloth. He just pierced it. Pretty much Shit we've seen before in Saint Seiya. So your point remains flat. You see how easy it is to debunk foolish arguments with a little dose of context?
And I am predicting at this rate, you'll bump the debunked Saint Seiya: "Facts vs Hypes" thread so you can circle jerk with the large amount of salty Dragon Ball fanboys who just can't say "I lost" and move on.
"(and the expert here was trying to argue that only universal+ attacks could damage them...... yeah sure, lol)"
Yeah, the capable debater, who actually knew what he was talking about, told you the good truth that you aren't breaking the Gold Cloths unless you have Universal+ attack potency. And Suikyo raised his Cosmo higher than that of the Gold Saints and used his power to pierce Gold Cloths to kill the Taurus Saint.
Oh and the Gold Cloth' s survived this:
Athena's Exclamation. An attack that's equal to the big bang. Gold Cloths > Athena's Exclamation. And it took Thanatos, in which Shiryuu said it's the first time, to destroy the Gold Cloths completely.
You don't even know what your talking about man, I'd love to see you revive your dead argument.
@jman88933: lol omg its still just ICE! nowhere near universal.... you think jiren can't do that? seriously man? and btw this is not lowballing, and it's not lacking ANY context;
there is a special attack, the description of said special attack and how it works, and there is the aftermath and result, of said special attack.
what you call "context" now is not really context, is just further, unnecessary informations like "this guy said he was really strong so....", ok, does it matter now? no. He explains in detail how his attack works, and exactly what it does with the moisture in the air creating ice spears... there is the context, there is the description, and there is explanation and visual representation.... that's more than enough!
"when water freezes, it can become fangs." That's his attack. Are you honestly trying to argue that's universal+? please...
And we also get to see these ice shards, clearly, penetrating the armor without any sort of "magical aura" of cosmo surrounding them and making them "magically" sharper and harder, if that's what you're alluding at.... we see no such thing, we read no such thing, and no such thing is implied, in any way.
that's just ice.... no matter how you wanna look at it, we can clearly see that it's just the ice penetrating his armor.
seriously man? you seemed like a much more realistic guy before, but now you wanna deny the evidence just like that? it's like you're wearing your fanboy-goggles. Sorry but
Yeah, you lost me there. That's the equivalent of me saying "Its just a punch" "It's just an kick" "Its just a blast" "It's just fire" "It's just a move"
Just like fire, Ice can be manipulated to be just as strong to kill and or "pierce" objects, no matter how strong (loved how you glossed over my evidence of athena's exclamation < Gold Cloths tho). In thats what he did to the Gold Cloth. It's hilarious because you claimed you watch Saint Seiya a long time ago, you'd remember there was a main character named Hyoga, who literally has a similar move called "Diamond Dust" and he used it to freeze Aquarius Camus' Gold Cloth. But notice how it wasn't destroyed. It's the same instance here, where it pierces, but didn't destroy.
"unnecessary informations like "this guy said he was really strong so....", "
You're saying this is unnecessary information? That the strength of one character is higher than the other, in which greatly affects future battles of the series?
The argument ends here. I have no interest in continuing with an individual who's willing to throw out his brain to prove a failed point.
I thought you were okay at first, but you dropped the ball on this one, now being on the level of insane Dragon Ball Fanboys. Next time you scale Dragon Ball characters to be weaker or stronger than the other, I'm going to spam screenshots of your exposed hypocrisy and ignorance on this post.
@jman88933: we are talking about materials here, not subjective matters like "this guy is stronger then that guy, therefore maybe...." no, objectively that is ice.
what we can easily assume, is that this attack is probably much faster and sharper than Hyoga's attack.... sure no doubt about that, but what we can actually observe, is that it clearly is still just ice. Deal with it.
This isn't about opinions, so don't try to get all offended here just cause i posted something that proves you guys were wrong... there is no subjective matter here, objectively, that is a sharp piece of ice, penetrating the armor.
you can cry all you want, that doesn't change the facts.
@magnus_carlsen3: The evidence of Jiren actually blitzing Dyspo for starters. Then confirmation proving Dyspo's FTL speed is related to combat, since apparently scans showing and stating much faster than light combat for Saint Seiya characters isn't valid evidence to some of the Jiren supporters in this thread.
Dyspo FTL is related to combat because at one point he is blitzing Hit and Golden Frieza in their combat battle. There are combat in which Golden Frieza is matching Dyspo FTL speed and Jiren is way faster than Golden Frieza.
My issue with going this route here is that others have attempted to argue the Saints lacking confirmed feats or statements in certain aspects of speed - in this case reaction - and scaling their reaction spewd from other Knights who are confirmed to be MFTL in combat is dubious, since we don't know if they're always using this speed. Dyspo was only said to have surpassed the speed of light through repeated battles by another character from his universe and in the episode spoilers, the speed he was blitzing Golden Freeza and Gohan with was only LS:
So if we take the light-speed stuff for Saint Seiya literally, then out of fairness, the same should apply for Dyspo. Again, I wouldn't have an issue scaling Jiren to FTL speeds under ordinary circumstances, but since that logic apparently doesn't fly here for Seiya, I don't see why it should with Jiren.
Against Hit, it was mentioned that Dyspo is at FTL in their combat and he can make it even faster. Against Golden Frieza, it was implied that Dyspo is using his best speed technique, so it won't make sense that he is only at light speed against Golden Frieza in their combat using his super maximum light speed. What is a super maximum light speed compare to light speed? There is no such thing as super maximum light speed. If you surpassed light speed then it is FTL. I believe what the authors are trying to imply is that this super maximum is MFTL.
I have forgotten it. What is the feat(or statements) that confirmed that knights are MFTL at combat?
Toppo merely confirmed Dyspo managed to surpass the speed of light after repeated battles, but he never specifies what aspect of speed he's FTL in. Attack, reaction, linear burst (short movement), etc.. Like I said, I would normally have no issue giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying he's just FTL via scaling from Dyspo, but since in this particular thread, I think it should be treated differently based on the acceptable standard of evidence for Seiya's speed.
Shura mentions that Gold Knights are all much faster than light, which is shown to apply directly to short distance movement speed, reaction (as he dodged the guided sword strikes while moving at greater-than-light speeds) and attack speed:
That is without spiking their Cosmo to its max. When Shura does this, he can achieve speeds that exceed the initial expansion of the universe, which according to the theory, is absurdly faster than the speed of light:
A wounded Seiya with a broken leg from back in the first part of the manga was dodging Aioria's Lightning Plasma with just his Bronze Cloth at close proximity after it was fired:
@animelegend68: That depends entirely on the size of the nebula, to be honest. It can be anywhere from thousands to millions of times FTL or higher. This would only apply to travel speed, though, in which Bronze Seiya traversed the light-years of the Super Dimensional Space, which consists of billions of galaxies, in a few minutes.
How can we accurately compare current base Goku to SSJG in the first arc of Super? The feat he pulled off with Beerus related to generating shockwaves which grew more powerful with distance. Gold Cloth Seiya from the previous arcs brought down Poseidon's Mainstay Pillar, which was said to be capable of enduring the end of the universe.
Yeah, but I'm mainly talking about the aspect of speed in this instance. For example, can Dyspo react or continuously dish out ftl punches? Or is his speed related to a short linear burst?
The official Crunchyroll subs has the episode title as "The ultimate high speed battle":
After learning light speed according to aiolia,he then dodged and evade that attack. He hadn't even mastered light speed completely, b4 he could replicate that feat originally with the gold cloth. Aiolia even slowed it down for him at some point.
Suikyo's attacks is Cosmo based and Ikki confirms he's stronger than any of the Gold Knights he's faced in combat before. Gold Cloths have held up just fine against cutting and piercing attacks in the past, such as Shura's Excalibur:
Besides, even if the Gold Cloths were weaker to cutting/piercing attacks, nothing in Jiren's arsenal deals that sort of damage. He just throws around blunt force via punches and kicks or Ki blasts which deals explosive damage.
@elderelijah190: The punches were slowed down before the instance I posted. Seiya maneuvers around countless attacks at close range after they were already fired, which would require FTL reactions even if those punches were only light speed. This is already a better established reaction feat than anything in Jiren's arsenal, and it's from Sanctuary arc Bronze Seiya with a broken leg.
I'll get a reply up later today. I forgot to get around to it before.
"Saints have trouble dealing with Earthquakes as shown above. "
Yeah that's the epitome reasoning of the definition, "Never take things at face value" without doing precise research first. The Saints are just reacting to the sudden earthquake....I don't see anywhere where they are implying that they couldn't handle it.
"Jiren powering up was stated to have shook an Infinite Universe."
An infinite universe full of absolutely nothing? Not sure how that's quantifiable.
"Saints have trouble dealing with Earthquakes as shown above. "
Yeah that's the epitome reasoning of the definition, "Never take things at face value" without doing precise research first. The Saints are just reacting to the sudden earthquake....I don't see anywhere where they are implying that they couldn't handle it.
"Jiren powering up was stated to have shook an Infinite Universe."
An infinite universe full of absolutely nothing? Not sure how that's quantifiable.
World of Void has stars, galaxies & Nebulae in it. This scan proves you are wrong.
It is also stated to be infinite. Basically, Jiren shook an infinite amount of mass. The mass of Earth is finite and small compared to this, yet the Saint's were panicking during the Earthquake. Look at their faces, especially the Gold Saint in top panel. That is the face of someone being given more than he can handle & the look of pure fear. Jiren on the otherhand is cool calm and collected while shaking a Universe with the utmost of ease. There is a distinction here...they were brought to their knees by an Earthquake, Jiren will bring Seiya to heel in an even more devastating fashion.
Remove yourself from Jiren's tunnel and lets level real quick.
Regardless of the stated size, how is shaking absolutely nothing a quantifiable feat? I'm curious. Your scan shows a couple lights and gas, probably generated from the battles that occurred. But no galaxies are cited. They explained that they call it the World of Void, a place without anything in site, so that the fighters could go full power without anything limiting them. So any speculated objects in the background is immediately debunked by the scan above.
The Saints are referring to a Cosmo rise, which started an earthquake. I don't see how that's a big deal. Are we measuring the characters based off of energy chararistics or actual feats? Let's compare actual combat feats Baltoro, I know your doing that wild goose chase in the Saint Seiya manga to try and downgrade the series but your venturing off to irrelevant and redundant territory here.
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