I wanna say Jiraiya because he can go sage and fuse with the two elder frogs. Round 1 goes to Jiraiya, and because it isn't EMS Sasuke I'll say he beats him there too. Though Jiraiya did get his ass handed to him by Pein, I'm not sure if Sasuke at these intervals would have fared much better.
Jiraiya both rounds. Sasuke's chances are brighter in rd 2 but sage mode is a saving grace. Though it would be interesting to see how Jiraiya would handle a Susanoo, Itachi did say he and Jiraiya would be a stalemate if that means anything
@comicstooge: That worked against the Raikage because the Raikage is a melee fighter. Jiraiya doesn't need to get close to Sasuke and remember he already has prior knowledge on the technique.
@comicstooge: That worked against the Raikage because the Raikage is a melee fighter. Jiraiya doesn't need to get close to Sasuke and remember he already has prior knowledge on the technique.
I still don't think he's fast enough to completely avoid Sasuke's line of sight, especially given the fact he doesn't start in Sage Mode.
@comicstooge: Sasuke doesn't start with the MS either. And Sasuke with the MS almost never started the fight with it. He always relied on his Kenjutsu and Chidori variants. And I don't know where everyone gets the notion that Jiraiya isn't fast.
Jiraiya took on the 6 paths of pein at once. not sure is Sasuke could handle that. plus Jiraiya both rounds. Also Jiraiya knows plenty about amaterasu, so he wont let himself get hit my one.
The majority of you are underestimating the requirements for Jiraya to actually enter sage mode, the length it takes, how vulnerable it leave's him, forgetting that Sasuke at a whim can release all of his Mangekyou techniques instantly. Also Forgetting that Jiraya supported by Gamaken was loosing ground while engaging the Animal Path of Pain aloneand that the Animal Path alone pressured him to enter Sage mode, leaving Gamaken down and out.
Forgetting that the Animal Path summons were one shotted by Itachi's Amerterasu, that Itachi was able to locate and disable the Chameleon using mere Shuriken, that Sasuke has mastered Amerterasu to a greater extent, and can stalemate his brother in a shoot out.
I won't be ending this on the case of A>B>C logic, Naruto battles aren't that simple, but Jiraya's counters for Sasuke's Mangekyou techniques are limited in the best cases, and if he's not already in sage mode, non existent.
First, For Jiraya to enter sage mode, summoning Ma and Pa toads presence is required, and this disadvantages him. The requirements of which are drawing blood from his wrist, marking his face with it and most tedious of all;keeping his hands clapped together for a fair period of time while a larger summon (Gamaken) buys it. Quite obviously this leaves him vulnerable as he's unable to perform hand seals or use him arms for Taijutsu, if Sasuke engages him in this state, he'll certainly be forced to use his hands, compromising Ma & Pa's arrival and having to restart the process. Secondly, it seems Jiraya is unable to summon an entire toad army right of the bat, or at least he doesn't chose to in character. Thirdly, if Gamekan or Gamambunta enter the battle, Sasuke can quickly dismember either with Chidori Eiso as he did with the humongous tentacle of Hachibi. As a fourth point, with genjutsu, Sasuke is perfectly capable of controlling large summons to his will such asManda, of whom is Gamabunta's counterpart. A common misnomer is that the power is an illusion, or that the summons are being tricked, is incorrect. The databook and Manda indicate that it isn't a trick, but a raw control. As a fifthpoint, it's entirely feasible that Sasuke can trap Jiraya in a genjutsu, but I'll get to that later.
@comicstooge: Same way Sasuke did against Itachi. Stay out of his line of site
Except Sasuke is a lot better at Amaterasu and can just wrap it around himself. Jiraiya isn't as fast the Raikage by a long shot.
There are some key things everybody ignores about this feat. The Raikage spent time building bijuu amounts of chakra for a shunshin that Karin and C noticed. Secondly, the Raikage was tipped off by staring at Sasuke's eyes. Neither of these are likely for Jiraiya who will probably be in mid-Ginyu-Pose. As a tertiary point, it's highly unlikely that Jiraiya can even match A's ushrouded reflexes. And as a quaternary point, Jiraya doesn't seem to have the precognition or sensory capabilities that Naruto or Kabuto, as two perfect sages posses. Otherwise it makes no sense for him to be caught of gaurd by Asura, or Shima to warn him of attacks. But you know my stance, it's unlikely that Jiraya will have the opportunity to enter sage mode here.
If for some plot reason Sasuke isn't able to control Jiraya's summons, turn them against him, then Amerterasu should ensure the victory against base Jiraya, Hermit mode Jiraya's chances are only slightly better.
Jiraiya doesn't need to get close to Sasuke and remember he already has prior knowledge on the technique.
For the record, he never saw Amerterasu being casted, and doesn't know the speed of the technique, only saw the effects of it. I sincerely hope you're not suggesting he's going to use the Fire Sealing Method in the middle of combat, because that would be highly impractical, morseo if he's set ablaze himself.
Jiraya and Sasuke both have a 4.5 in speed (unknown whether it applies to Sage Jiraya) , however, Sasuke on two occasions managed to outspeed Deidara, of who'm is also a 4.5 in speed, once with only Tobi's warning to react, making diedara admit he's too fast for him, and on top of better feats, he has precognition in a battle of speed, but let's give Jiraya the benefit of the doubt here and say he doesn't get blitzed.
And I don't know where everyone gets the notion that Jiraiya isn't fast.
Because he (base Jiraya) is very under-nourished in speed feats. Sasuke isn't.
Same way Sasuke did against Itachi. Stay out of his line of site
Unlikely, but let's say that Ameterasu isn't usable for the good it's gonna do him against the rest of his arsenal.
Jiriaya's detection barrier is a banner for pro-Jiriaya arguers, but they frequently ignore that Jiraiya himself said that it's a poor substitute for eyesight and without knowing Gai's special method he has to do what everyone has had to do. Either not look at Sasuke at all, or not look at Sasuke's eyes. Having inferior intellect and knowledge of genjutsu to Orochimaru will come in handy (lol) here. But if by some miracle Jiraya is able to summon Ma and Pa, who aren't being controlled for plot reasons, break him out, please note: that it still took time for even the Hachibi to break out genjutsu, and even small and weak genjutsu can be deadly when applied with intelligence. Moreover, some forms of the Sharingan’s demonic illusions have been used at long range as shown in Deidara's final fight. So on top of controlling Gamaken to turn on Jiraiya, Sasuke can target Jiraiya himself with Sharingan Genjutsu. Hermit Mode or not, this is just one more notch in Sasuke's belt that could destroy Jiraiya when combined with other dangers.
But let's say Sasuke, for some plot reason, can't use genjutsu effectively against him. Jiriaya might as well instantly reflect all of Sasuke's genjutsu back on to him for all the good it will do him against Susanoo.
Sasuke doesn't start with the MS either. And Sasuke with the MS almost never started the fight with it. He always relied on his Kenjutsu and Chidori variants.
In the first two fights when he was less experienced with Mangekyou, he didn't. Against Danzo, he did.
Two Hokage candidates couldn't use hand seals despite being very far away, and relied on the most powerful abilities of the Senju and Uchiha to deflect a single arrow. Sasuke used Susano'o immediately in his battle with Danzo, and we know Susano'o can keep on shooting arrows, yet Jiraiya lacks any powerful, instant defenses. He isscrewed. Base Jiraiyadies.Hermit Mode Jiraiya is going to be seriously injured.
Even if Sasuke was limited to standing around while Susano'o did the work for nearly ten minutes, I would argue that it would be too much for Jiraiya, but we know Sasuke can multitask with other techniques. So not only is Jiraiya expected to dodge Susano'o arrows, which he can't if Kakashi couldn't, but also the instantaneously spawning Amaterasu.
So what about Sasuke defending Jiraya's attacks?
Well, as for the hyped Swamp of the Underworld, Wild Lion's Mane, Food Cart Destroyer, Giant Rasengan or the Toad's stomach for that matter, please note: Jiriaya said that his senbon technique was his fastest attack that covered a large range i.e. his hardest jutsu to evade. The databook text of Food Cart Destroyer does say "right above". However, it means right above as "in a straight line above". The Japanese word is 真上 (ma-ue). There is no implication of distance, other than the mentioned several hundred-foot dive. This is why it has only ever been used on giant creatures or a large morphed Zetsu who had restricted movements, and not tiny ninja, because the ninja have a great deal more time to react. Moreover, the Sharingan determines the particulars of a technique, and would see it coming. Using the Toads stomach would be Jiraya's De Ja Vu; but note, Chidori Eiso could have "tore it apart" just the same.Giant Rasengen; meet ribcage Susanoo. Wild Lions mane would be a nice conductor for electric attacks, or slicing practice, like oro's snakes, and while acting as a straight jacket for Pain's giant crab is good, I don't think it can replicate that feat with the much stronger Susanoo. As for Swamp of the Underworld, or it's full title, Earth Release : Swamp of the Underworld, as in; Earth Release : weak against lightning attacks of the same rank. Luckily for Sasuke Chidori Nagashi covers the ground with an electrical charge pretty quickly, moreover the sharingan allows him to determine the nature of an attack by the hanseals used.Of course he won't be able to do any of these while attempting to summon Ma and Pa... Fire attacks are countered by other Fire attacks ect... Really Jiraya's only chance is to make an immediate retreat for Hermit Mode and to prepare frog song, and to be honest Sasuke has more chance of finishing the fight with Kirin in this setting, the conditions of the fight being perfect.
Jiraiya took on the 6 paths of pein at once. not sure is Sasuke could handle that.
No. Jiraya admitted he'd need to use his full power against the Animal Path, that 3 out of 6 Peins; and not even the strongest ones, were going to kill him and that he was only their superior after splitting them up. When it came to facing 6, he got spanked. Hype aside, when observing Jiraya's accomplishments, you start seeing the flaws in how he fights. Both Sannin were handicapped in their fight, but a more charitable observer would say that Orochimaru fared worse, without use of his arms fighting a drugged Jiraya who came out of it looking defeated. only triumphing when regrouped with Tsunade. Then you have his off panel defeat at the hands of Naruto's four tail state.
Itachi did say he and Jiraiya would be a stalemate if that means anything
It doesn't, Itachi had a reason to lie and Kisame was calling bullshit straight after. Actions speak louder then words and ridiculously false hype isn't equal to Sasuke's, let alone Itachi's accomplishments. x
@luckystrike: How do you know it was a lie? I don't remember it being a lie nor do I remember Kisame's skepticism of Itachi's statement iirc he believed Itachi, could very well be wrong its been awhile.
@luckystrike: Then you have his off panel defeat at the hands of Naruto's four tail state.
Jiraiya won hence why he's alive come the end of the Timeskip. Not to mention that he'd have held back against his student and the fact that Four Tailed Naruto isn't a weak character. He'd give either Sasuke a fight if not win.
@luckystrike: How do you know it was a lie? I don't remember it being a lie nor do I remember Kisame's skepticism of Itachi's statement iirc he believed Itachi, could very well be wrong its been awhile.
Gracing this post with evidence is honestly beneath me, really I should be telling you to you to re-read the manga, focusing on the parts that featured Itachi's backstory.
But for the sins of not providing a link to a scan in every little detail of that post, here we go.
First, For Jiraya to enter sage mode, summoning Ma and Pa toads presence is required, and this disadvantages him. The requirements of which are drawing blood from his wrist, marking his face with it and most tedious of all;keeping his hands clapped together for a fair period of time while a larger summon (Gamaken) buys it. Quite obviously this leaves him vulnerable as he's unable to perform hand seals or use him arms for Taijutsu, if Sasuke engages him in this state, he'll certainly be forced to use his hands, compromising Ma & Pa's arrival and having to restart the process. Secondly, it seems Jiraya is unable to summon an entire toad army right of the bat, or at least he doesn't chose to in character. Thirdly, if Gamekan or Gamambunta enter the battle, Sasuke can quickly dismember either with Chidori Eiso as he did with the humongous tentacle of Hachibi. As a fourth point, with genjutsu, Sasuke is perfectly capable of controlling large summons to his will such as Manda, of whom is Gamabunta's counterpart. A common misnomer is that the power is an illusion, or that the summons are being tricked, is incorrect. The databook and Manda indicate that it isn't a trick, but a raw control.
This is a good point actually, good post overall too!
If Sasuke is controlling Gamaken then Jiraya's outlet to buy time is used against, meaning there's little chance of him entering Sage Mode. In which case, one could reasonably suggest that Sasuke, with his Cursed Seal, superior speed and many of Orochimaru's techniques could beat base Jiraya.
First, For Jiraya to enter sage mode, summoning Ma and Pa toads presence is required, and this disadvantages him. The requirements of which are drawing blood from his wrist, marking his face with it and most tedious of all;keeping his hands clapped together for a fair period of time while a larger summon (Gamaken) buys it. Quite obviously this leaves him vulnerable as he's unable to perform hand seals or use him arms for Taijutsu, if Sasuke engages him in this state, he'll certainly be forced to use his hands, compromising Ma & Pa's arrival and having to restart the process. Secondly, it seems Jiraya is unable to summon an entire toad army right of the bat, or at least he doesn't chose to in character. Thirdly, if Gamekan or Gamambunta enter the battle, Sasuke can quickly dismember either with Chidori Eiso as he did with the humongous tentacle of Hachibi. As a fourth point, with genjutsu, Sasuke is perfectly capable of controlling large summons to his will such as Manda, of whom is Gamabunta's counterpart. A common misnomer is that the power is an illusion, or that the summons are being tricked, is incorrect. The databook and Manda indicate that it isn't a trick, but a raw control.
This is a good point actually, good post overall too!
If Sasuke is controlling Gamaken then Jiraya's outlet to buy time is used against, meaning there's little chance of him entering Sage Mode. In which case, one could reasonably suggest that Sasuke, with his Cursed Seal, superior speed and many of Orochimaru's techniques could beat base Jiraya.
Yes, generally he has to start in Sage mode for his chances to increase, but sage Jiraya could take an even split against Hebi Sasuke, particularly as the Op's chosen location allows him to use Kirin easily.
Jiraiya won hence why he's alive come the end of the Timeskip. Not to mention that he'd have held back against his student and the fact that Four Tailed Naruto isn't a weak character. He'd give either Sasuke a fight if not win.
A poor choice of wording on my part, so I'll concede that particular point. What I will say however, is that Jiraya not only had knowledge of the seal that the Fourth Hokage used to suppress the Demon Fox in his son, but he also had a key to that seal, and it's possible that he had suppressed the fox rather then over powering it. On the other hand, winning is not the same as surviving, and when citing any off panel event, speculation will be the basis of an argument involving it.
In regards to Sasuke vs Kurama; no, the latter can not win in his four tailed state, the sharingan has the power to suppress and control him. I'll get into details later.
@luckystrike: the insults are a tad bit unnecessary, thank you for the scans though. I see his skepticism however I was just stating Itachi had said that he and Jiraiya would be a stalemate. I still don't see why he would lie to Kisame about fighting Jiraiya, I must be missing something lol
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