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#151 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio

There really isn't. There is only speed feat everyone scales from and that is the Derous laser speed feat. The Starjun thing is more precog and how far a distance he can see.

And none of those feats were performed by Midora. While Jin actually performed his own feats.

The Starjun instance literally references the speed of light so not seeing how speed isn't involved. There's also Toriko lightning timing very early in the series, Bambina's feats (dodging Mold Spear), Acacia's cell swimming faster than light, back channels, Midora blitzing Joa 8 times in 0.01 seconds, etc. There are plenty of feats.

What speed feats does Mori actually have outside speed mode and limit remover?

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#152 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15592 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:
@emperorthanos said:
@sy8008 said:
@emperorthanos said:

Nothings changed. Unless this is current Mori, in which case Midora stomps for obvious reasons, he would blitz. He has better and more clearly cut speed feats. Midora an literally every Toriko scale their speed from one single feat.

There are several speed feats and Midora clearly scales above the characters who performed them anyway...it's not like Mori is any better if you're looking at it this way. Outside speed amps, the best feat I can think of from base is keeping up with Natak who reacted to Yeoui's expansion.

There really isn't. There is only speed feat everyone scales from and that is the Derous laser speed feat. The Starjun thing is more precog and how far a distance he can see.

And none of those feats were performed by Midora. While Jin actually performed his own feats.

Midora doe scales to just about every one of those speed feats. Since he's definitely faster than evolved Neo and Acacia separately, as he fought them combined. Note, evolved Neo ate Derous' Laser out of the air.

You are assuming Derous's laser moves at the same speed every single time it is fired. But that's not how attacks work(I mean people give DBZ dbeaters shit for saying Piccolos blast is the same speed as the moon one). When we saw all the 8 kings fire the blast at the same time, it didn't seem any faster than the slower attacks we saw from the other 8 kings.

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#153 Posted by Marc_55 (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: I'm not trying to restrict him to base, that's just how he's likely to start the fight. Since that's the case, he'll fall to hax and better speeds.

Jin's best feats from either Speed Mode or Limit Removals, right? So he won't be casually blitzing around at those speeds. Meaning Midora has more than enough time to use literally any one of his hax attacks, which he's prone to.

He also doesn't have star level anything until the aforementioned limits come off, which means large planetary is exactly suited to fighting him. Not to mention there's an argument for the potency of end game Toriko's attacks being star level.

That said, Midora can just use Minority to dull Jin's attacks, avoid them outright with Gourmet Luck as a follow up. Then eat him with Hungry Tongue/Space.

That healing factor is of a similar level, but Midora can boost his with Minority World and Gourmet Luck, making it that much harder to keep him down.

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#154 Edited by kaiocool (779 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos said:
@marc_55 said:

Midora doe scales to just about every one of those speed feats. Since he's definitely faster than evolved Neo and Acacia separately, as he fought them combined. Note, evolved Neo ate Derous' Laser out of the air.

You are assuming Derous's laser moves at the same speed every single time it is fired. But that's not how attacks work(I mean people give DBZ dbeaters shit for saying Piccolos blast is the same speed as the moon one). When we saw all the 8 kings fire the blast at the same time, it didn't seem any faster than the slower attacks we saw from the other 8 kings.

Neo reacted to and even partially ate the same laser which reached other star systems instantly, this is also the same laser joa tried cutting after it was fired

they both reacted to it perfectly, neo's devouring was just outmatched by power of deurous's laser just like joa's slice

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also, that is same from assuming jin's speed mode on earth was as fast as the one in space

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#155 Edited by Marc_55 (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos said:
@marc_55 said:
@emperorthanos said:

There really isn't. There is only speed feat everyone scales from and that is the Derous laser speed feat. The Starjun thing is more precog and how far a distance he can see.

And none of those feats were performed by Midora. While Jin actually performed his own feats.

Midora doe scales to just about every one of those speed feats. Since he's definitely faster than evolved Neo and Acacia separately, as he fought them combined. Note, evolved Neo ate Derous' Laser out of the air.

You are assuming Derous's laser moves at the same speed every single time it is fired.

Am I too assume the exact same attack would randomly be slower for no reason? Especially when this one was charged more than the first one, not less. So this argument doesn't work in your favor.

But that's not how attacks work(I mean people give DBZ dbeaters shit for saying Piccolos blast is the same speed as the moon one).

Not that it has any real relevance here, those are two completely different attacks. Neither of are which are noted for any notable speed.

When we saw all the 8 kings fire the blast at the same time, it didn't seem any faster than the slower attacks we saw from the other 8 kings.

Okay....? How does that lower the showing at all? The 8 Kings are relative equals, I don't see why it would be a stretch to believe they attack at similar speeds.

We've known that they're casually FTL since Bambina playing around.

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#156 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15592 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8008 said:
@emperorthanos said:

There really isn't. There is only speed feat everyone scales from and that is the Derous laser speed feat. The Starjun thing is more precog and how far a distance he can see.

And none of those feats were performed by Midora. While Jin actually performed his own feats.

The Starjun instance literally references the speed of light so not seeing how speed isn't involved. There's also Toriko lightning timing very early in the series, Bambina's feats (dodging Mold Spear), Acacia's cell swimming faster than light, back channels, Midora blitzing Joa 8 times in 0.01 seconds, etc. There are plenty of feats.

What speed feats does Mori actually have outside speed mode and limit remover?

I don't see how referencing the speed of light changes anything. It gives him sight of the future, it is still precognition. And it allowed him to Joie's future movements. I don't see how that is speed for anyone involved.

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How is lightening timing supposed to be impressive here. Bambina's feat is light speed at best, Back channels is time manipulation. Midora vs Joie is just more scaling. 0.01 seconds is hardly fast. I don't recall the acacia's cell feat, do you have scans for that?

I'd have to check @god_vulcan would know better.

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#157 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15592 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55:

Am I too assume the exact same attack would randomly be slower for no reason? Especially when this one was charged more than the first one, not less. So this argument doesn't work in your favor.

There is nothing to suggest it moves at the same speed every single time. Maybe if we had more than one instance of it moving that speed. But there is an example of it moving slower.

Okay....? How does that lower the showing at all? The 8 Kings are relative equals, I don't see why it would be a stretch to believe they attack at similar speeds.

Except we have seen the speed of several of the other attacks and none of them were any where near as fast. So why would we scale them all up.

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#158 Posted by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

when does he blitz released satan in base?

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1 that is after the release of his final limiter, so he can't ko midora before using minority world

Minority World can't do anything about a clone army. And Jin can blitz and KO him in base.

2. gourmet luck causes it to miss, and jin mori can't kick too many times like that before rebound

Gourmet Luck has never caused attacks with star lvl AOE to miss, only large planet and stars dwarf large planets.

no, but it shows gourmet luck is not activated, it's something that's constantly active whether you are in combat or not

Every time it's been used in a fight it has had to have been activated. It's probably only passive for things that aren't combat related.

@sy8008

It's still vague. Also it was promptly reveled that Mori was massively weakened from limit removers despite the whole Supreme God thing and he struggled with R, so the "amp" isn't even consistent with itself.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this because it's not vague to me at all. Him being massively weakened from limit removers could also be due in part to Mujin sealing all of his powers away.

He wouldn't need to redirect the whole attack, just make it miss him.

He's never redirected anything with Star lvl AOE. Only large planets, and our Sun would dwarf the Toriko planet.

Why wouldn't he be able to? Minority World worked on Acacia's massive hands, it shouldn't have trouble working on multiple opponents. Also he doesn't need to atomize them just collapse their vitals. He could probably revert them out of Jecheondaesong mode too. Mori can't maintain large amounts of clones either.

This would dwarf Acacia's hands:

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He's never used Minority World on that scale. That AOE is enough to dwarf the Toriko planet as well.

He can consume the attacks with Hungry Space. Also I'm not seeing why Minority World would be unable to stop the omni-directional attacks (which they really aren't, just a lot of clones attacking a large area).

Again, the range of Hungry Space isn't large enough to consume the entire attack. And it would be omni-directional to Midora

when the clones surround him like this:

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Really though the fight would never get to that point. Midora could just attack Mori himself at the start, undo his transformation and shut down his vitals.

He wouldn't know which Midora is the real one to attack with MW at the beginning of the battle.

He has no speed feats on Midora's level in base to be honest.

I still don't understand why you're restricting Mori to base as if he'll never use limit removers or speed mode for the whole battle. And since you're arguing Midora shutting him down with MW at the beginning of the fight, how many times has Midora done that in character? Reverse someone's body functions at the beginning of the fight?

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#159 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15592 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool said:
@emperorthanos said:
@marc_55 said:

Midora doe scales to just about every one of those speed feats. Since he's definitely faster than evolved Neo and Acacia separately, as he fought them combined. Note, evolved Neo ate Derous' Laser out of the air.

You are assuming Derous's laser moves at the same speed every single time it is fired. But that's not how attacks work(I mean people give DBZ dbeaters shit for saying Piccolos blast is the same speed as the moon one). When we saw all the 8 kings fire the blast at the same time, it didn't seem any faster than the slower attacks we saw from the other 8 kings.

Neo reacted to and even partially ate the same laser which reached other star systems instantly, this is also the same laser joa tried cutting after it was fired

they both reacted to it perfectly, neo's devouring was just outmatched by power of deurous's laser just like joa's slice

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also, that is same from assuming jin's speed mode on earth was as fast as the one in space

He didn't react to it at all. he got blasted quite clearly. You can clear see where his mouth is and where the blast hits him. Joie really only hit the laser after it went past her. It was a continuous laser blast so that isn't really a speed feat.

Why would his speed mode be slower, it's the same thing.

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#160 Posted by Marc_55 (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55:

There is nothing to suggest it moves at the same speed every single time. Maybe if we had more than one instance of it moving that speed. But there is an example of it moving slower.

Except that argument doesn't work, this was a charged version of the earlier blast. If you're saying the speed would be different, arbitrarily mind, it would be faster not slower.

Except we have seen the speed of several of the other attacks and none of them were any where near as fast.

I'm not where you're going with this. We've seen them be slower, yes, but nothing ever indicated that's their cap. Getting better feats against Acacia does exactly the opposite of what you're trying to do.

So why would we scale them all up.

I've seen no reason to believe the attacks are suddenly slower, so why scale down? If those attacks traveled at the same rate as Derous' that would logically scale them up, which is keeping with the internal logic of the series. As all 8 Kings are relative to each other.

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#161 Edited by Marc_55 (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

Neo reacted to it later, after evolving.

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Note, again, this is a charged version as compared to before. Since it was noted that Derous gathered enough energy to one shot Moon the Whale King. Even discounting that, it's still the exact same attack.

It's exactly the same logic that applies to Jin's speed mode being the same speed.

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#162 Posted by kaiocool (779 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

when does he blitz released satan in base?

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that is not base, that is well after 2,50,000 and after his supreme god limiter was removed

if you are mixing up scans again, the key to identify is the headband. The one with headband is base mori, the one without is how he was at the end of the fight after every single limiter was removed

Minority World can't do anything about a clone army.

It doesn't need to, midora has other attacks after that, what it does is take down the main jin

And Jin can blitz and KO him in base.

jin doesn't have the speed or power to KO midora in base - if jin activates his modes/limits, midora has minority world and food luck to take care of that

Gourmet Luck has never caused attacks with star lvl AOE to miss, only large planet and stars dwarf large planets.

given minority world, this is the state he will be in

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in this state, he's not kicking anything. star level aoe doesn't come into play

Every time it's been used in a fight it has had to have been activated. It's probably only passive for things that aren't combat related.

either way, base jin can't stop him from activating those, and once they are activated, jin has no way to counter them

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#163 Posted by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8008 said:
@emperorthanos said:

There really isn't. There is only speed feat everyone scales from and that is the Derous laser speed feat. The Starjun thing is more precog and how far a distance he can see.

And none of those feats were performed by Midora. While Jin actually performed his own feats.

The Starjun instance literally references the speed of light so not seeing how speed isn't involved. There's also Toriko lightning timing very early in the series, Bambina's feats (dodging Mold Spear), Acacia's cell swimming faster than light, back channels, Midora blitzing Joa 8 times in 0.01 seconds, etc. There are plenty of feats.

What speed feats does Mori actually have outside speed mode and limit remover?

I'd have to check @god_vulcan would know better.

Mori has an abundance of speed feats that are on par with all the ones you listed. First there's him blitzing First Crown Prince in base, kicking him three time over in quick succession before he could react:

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The same Prince who dodged the extension of Yeoui:

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Before Jin could even fully control Yeoui properly (calling it down for the first time) it went from the moon to Earth shorter than the time-frame it took a spear already touching Daewi's back to fully pierce him

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Even assuming that the angel threw the spear at peak human speeds, the timeframe was under a second making it many times FTL. But I'm about to take the feat one step further by adding more context. So to further reiterate how truly short the timeframe was, Taek Jae-Kal (a hypersonic opponent, seeing as he could fight Ilpyo who ignites the air with friction from speed alone) wasn't able to react when an angel threw a spear through his torso, even after he powered up

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And that was Taek after absorbing the key, and weaker versions of him were hypersonic+. So it wasn't just less than a second it was a literal fraction of it (the spear was less than milimeters away from entering Daewi's skin, it would take the speed of sound within thousandths of a second to cross that distance, and that's a low end because Jae-Kal is far faster than the speed of sounds); Making Yeoui at least hundreds of times FTL and Jin even faster for blitzing someone who reacted to it. And he did that in base.

Moving on, another FTL feat was him crossing a solar system in seconds. But he didn't just leave a solar system, he went from one solar system to an entirely different one (meaning the he crossed the space in between) and the distance between solar system is light years on average. Even if it took Jin a full minute to cross it (extreme lowball) that'd still be millions upon millions of times FTL.

Then all the speed feats Jin can scale to are as follows:

  • Ohkwang throwing two planets at each other from their locations in the solar system in the blink of an eye
  • Satan casually pulling Jupiter and throwing it at Earth like a skipping stone, at speeds done so fast it look like the planet teleported. Jupiter is over 30 light minutes away from Earth btw
  • Han launching Mars at Earth instantly
  • Satan blitzing Jin from Earth to the Sun
  • Satan punching Jin from the Sun back to Earth
  • Jin extinguishing the Sun for the duration of a 100 picoseconds. I stopped arguing it as a combat speed feat a while ago but it still counts for perceptions since he was aware of what was happening

So yeah, Jin is pretty freaking fast both by standalone speed feats and ones he can scale to. And if you want to count stuff like Toriko lightning timing early in the series, not that a mere clone of Jin [Mori Hui] operating at a fraction of Jin power moved faster than teleportation...

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#164 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15592 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55:

Except that argument doesn't work, this was a charged version of the earlier blast. If you're saying the speed would be different, arbitrarily mind, it would be faster not slower.

Nothing about this suggest longer charging time at all. I don't see where you are getting that. In both we see a blast and the sound effect. Nothing suggests longer charging time at all

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I'm not where you're going with this. We've seen them be slower, yes, but nothing ever indicated that's their cap. Getting better feats against Acacia does exactly the opposite of what you're trying to do.

Their other attacks were against Acacia as well. It makes more sense that Derous's laser was going slower than every other attack suddenly being ridiculously faster than they ever were before. They used those attacks against Acacia to and they were still slower like for example Hercales breath.

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I've seen no reason to believe the attacks are suddenly slower, so why scale down? If those attacks traveled at the same rate as Derous' that would logically scale them up, which is keeping with the internal logic of the series. As all 8 Kings are relative to each other.

What do you mean suddenly slower? They were shown to be slower previously. if anything your arguing that they suddenly made a huge jump in speed that makes no logical sense. being similar level of power doesn't equate to similar attack speed.

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#165 Edited by kaiocool (779 posts) - - Show Bio
@emperorthanos said:

He didn't react to it at all. he got blasted quite clearly. You can clear see where his mouth is and where the blast hits him. Joie really only hit the laser after it went past her. It was a continuous laser blast so that isn't really a speed feat.

.The scan sequence was messed up, so you have missed what is happening there

acacia was hit by other kings and was in the air with nowhere to go. Dragon king took this chance and fired at him.

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after the laser has already been fired, joa tries to slice it away and fails, while acacia tries to devour it, as he has done with most attacks before that - but neo simply can't devour fast enough. While their defenses fail because the attack was too powerful, their speed is clearly fast enough.

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that laser was so fast it instantly reached other star system. Joa and acacia are clearly able to see and do something about it before it even covered the distance to acacia, maybe few hundred meters

of course it's a speed feat, and an incredible one too

Why would his speed mode be slower, it's the same thing

even Dragon king's laser is the exact same thing, just used again.

If you say one can be slower when used at different times, so can the other

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#166 Posted by Marc_55 (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55:

Nothing about this suggest longer charging time at all. I don't see where you are getting that. In both we see a blast and the sound effect. Nothing suggests longer charging time at all

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For starters, the energy ball is bigger here than when he shot the first time. Visuals aside, it's literally noted he charged it enough to kill Moon in one shot. Unlike before, where he just casually charged and shot.

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Regardless, as said before, it would be the same speed unless noted otherwise. It's never noted otherwise, so assuming it slower is baseless.

Their other attacks were against Acacia as well.

What? During that time they proceed to overwhelm him with the attacks and coordination. How is that a knock on them? They get better feats as the fight him, I just said this.

It makes more sense that Derous's laser was going slower than every other attack suddenly being ridiculously faster than they ever were before.

No, it doesn't make any sense actually. How can you prove they were ridiculously slower, prior to this? Neo has been blitzed by Bambina, blitzed by the Snake King, couldn't react to Derous' Laser. What implies they're massively slower than the Laser to begin with?

They used those attacks against Acacia to and they were still slower like for example Hercales breath.

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How does this prove it's far slower? It hits Neo and God, two FTL characters, and then it extend through the planet and stops. How is this proof of anything, except FTL attacks for Heracles, which we already know.

What do you mean suddenly slower? They were shown to be slower previously.

You keep saying this, how were they shown slower? I'm confused.

if anything your arguing that they suddenly made a huge jump in speed that makes no logical sense.

What? Who's says it's a huge jump in the first place? You have yet to prove they are slower and weren't anywhere near that speed.

being similar level of power doesn't equate to similar attack speed.

Then it's a good thing we a have a direct showing of that.

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#167 Edited by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

that is not base, that is well after 2,50,000 and after his supreme god limiter was removed

The rebound for his 250k limit removers already hit by that point. That was his base form after his Crown broke and he was operating at full power.

if you are mixing up scans again, the key to identify is the headband. The one with headband is base mori, the one without is how he was at the end of the fight after every single limiter was removed

I'm not mixing up scans. Base Jin is Jin without any powerups or amps. Limit removers had expired by the time he completed that feat and the Crown surrounding Jin's foreheard was a restriction that didn't allow him to fight at full power. It was stated that they were "shackles" that "confined" him:

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That means that every single feat Jin completed in the entire series was in a weakened state, and per battle forum rules character have to fight to the best of their abilities when there's no info in the OP. And Jin at the best of his abilities is Post-Crown, which is his base form but operating at his highest levels of power. Said form which blitzed Satan who himself is already on par with Midora.

jin doesn't have the speed or power to KO midora in base - if jin activates his modes/limits, midora has minority world and food luck to take care of that

  1. Jin at his strongest is faster than Midora in base
  2. Midora has never tanked striking power on Jin's lvl
  3. Minority World has no counter to the amount of clones littering the battlefield
  4. Gourmet Luck has never reflected anything with Star wide AOE

given minority world, this is the state he will be in

in this state, he's not kicking anything. star level aoe doesn't come into play

Midora can't use Minority World to do that to a hundreds of separate people at the same time. Once Jin clogs the battlefield with clones, Midora will have no way to know which is the real one to use Minority World on.

@marc_55

I'm not trying to restrict him to base, that's just how he's likely to start the fight. Since that's the case, he'll fall to hax and better speeds.

Well, if you debate 3 people at the same time who are all using the same arguments, you're bound to repeat yourself. So I'll just tell you what I told Sy and kaiocool---->

Jin blitzed Satan in base when he was at full power:

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Satan tagged Jin in speed mode. End of discussion.

Jin's best feats from either Speed Mode or Limit Removals, right? So he won't be casually blitzing around at those speeds. Meaning Midora has more than enough time to use literally any one of his hax attacks, which he's prone to.

Well that's wrong. Satan tagged speed mode Jin and that version of Jin is faster than Midora. Jin blitzed him in base once he regained his full power back.

He also doesn't have star level anything until the aforementioned limits come off, which means large planetary is exactly suited to fighting him. Not to mention there's an argument for the potency of end game Toriko's attacks being star level.

Jin still has greater DC and durability feats than Midora w/o limit removers taking the Sage Realm feats into account, as that planet was the size of a Dwarf Star. And he's going to use limit removers eventually.

That said, Midora can just use Minority to dull Jin's attacks, avoid them outright with Gourmet Luck as a follow up. Then eat him with Hungry Tongue/Space.

GL can run out and doesn't stay active for prolonged uses, nor has it been shown redirecting any attacks with Star wide AOE. As for his counter against Minority World, Jin could just litter the battlefield with clones as a viable deterrent and Midora won't be able to attack them all at once nor use MW to atomize all of them individually; especially if he amps them with speed mode. He can also surround Midora with his clones and perform omni-directional attacks and Minority World can't defend against that.

Hungry Space doesn't have the AOE to tag him.

That healing factor is of a similar level, but Midora can boost his with Minority World and Gourmet Luck, making it that much harder to keep him down.

Well Jin doesn't necessarily have to kill him, he could incapacitate him with pressure points or knock him out with a kick. Also Satan can literally revive himself from the dead which is>>>> any kind of regen. Jin's presence made him shit his pants.

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#168 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15592 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

acacia was hit by other kings and was in the air with nowhere to go. Dragon king took this chance and fired at him.

after the laser has already been fired, joa tries to slice it away and fails, while acacia tries to devour it, as he has done with most attacks before that - but neo simply can't devour fast enough. While their defenses fail because the attack was too powerful, their speed is clearly fast enough.

Ok what? There is absolutly no indication Acacia tries to devour it. We don't even see him open his mouth. This is a huge assumption on your part. I already explained the Joie aspect. We see the blast fired, then Joie sends his attack and it just hits the blast that had already gone past him

You can literally see in the scan where the blast hit acacia and where is mouth is.(Which is still closed by the way) Acacia didn't react to it.

even Dragon king's laser is the exact same thing, just used again.

If you say one can be slower when used at different times, so can the other

I also argued why I think it is slower, because of other instances. Also speed mode is a transformation not an attack. It gives you speed. Attack speeds aren't constant ever. You are comparing apples to oranges.

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#169 Posted by Marc_55 (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: Your argument is he blitzes Satan in base, who can tag him in Speed mode? How does this make any logical sense?

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#170 Posted by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:

@god_vulcan: Your argument is he blitzes Satan in base, who can tag him in Speed mode? How does this make any logical sense?

Because that was Jin in base but at full power. The entire series Jin has had a white crown surrounding his forehead called the Loop of Binding. But it broke during his fight with Satan:

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The Loop of Binding was described as "shackles" that "confined" Jin:

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Meaning that they were restrictions on his power. So literally every feat Jin completed in the series was in a weakened versions. However, after the crown broke, he returned to his original power which was so significant he literally made 666: Satan shed tears and cry in awe and fear of him, seeing him as a being on a higher dimension. Read all of these scans:

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But it was him in base, just operating to the best of his abilities, which is the default form a character assumes when there's no info in the OP per battle forum rules.

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#171 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15592 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55:

For starters, the energy ball is bigger here than when he shot the first time. Visuals aside, it's literally noted he charged it enough to kill Moon in one shot. Unlike before, where he just casually charged and shot.

It simply looks bigger from this angle. And charging it up to kill Moon doesn't mean he didn't charge it up before when he fought Acacia. He was obviously trying to kill acacia when he fired the blast back then.

What? During that time they proceed to overwhelm him with the attacks and coordination. How is that a knock on them? They get better feats as the fight him, I just said this.

Why wouldn't they use their fastest speed when they fought Acacia initially. Why would they only now use their full speed. You make it sound like they started getting stronger as they fought Acacia. But their power didn't change at all.

No, it doesn't make any sense actually. How can you prove they were ridiculously slower, prior to this? Neo has been blitzed by Bambina, blitzed by the Snake King, couldn't react to Derous' Laser. What implies they're massively slower than the Laser to begin with?No, it doesn't make any sense actually. How can you prove they were ridiculously slower, prior to this? Neo has been blitzed by Bambina, blitzed by the Snake King, couldn't react to Derous' Laser. What implies they're massively slower than the Laser to begin with?

I gave an example of it being slower. Hercales's breath didn't going to another solar system now did it? Clearly making it slower than Derous's laser. You don't have to be the same speed to blitz someone. All you have to be is faster than the person you are blitzing. the degree you are faster than them by is not necessarily the same.

How does this prove it's far slower? It hits Neo and God, two FTL characters, and then it extend through the planet and stops. How is this proof of anything, except FTL attacks for Heracles, which we already know.

By the fact that it didn't go the same distance that Derous's laser did. The attack didn't just stop. He fired his breath and it went through the planet and would keep going. The Arthur/Artist despects attack speed through distance. thats how we even get the speed of Derous's blast.

You keep saying this, how were they shown slower? I'm confused.

I showed you Hercales breath being slower. You can deny it being slower but that's not my issue.

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#172 Edited by kaiocool (779 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

The rebound for his 250k limit removers already hit by that point. That was his base form after his Crown broke and he was operating at full power.

I'm not mixing up scans. Base Jin is Jin without any powerups or amps. Limit removers had expired by the time he completed that feat and the Crown surrounding Jin's foreheard was a restriction that didn't allow him to fight at full power. It was stated that they were "shackles" that "confined" him:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

That means that every single feat Jin completed in the entire series was in a weakened state,

you only have half portion of the sequence there. Here's the full version

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

they were also protecting him, jin actually doesn't notice the difference from shackles lifted but clearly feels and mention the protection

by your logic, every single feat Jin completed in the entire series was with the assistance of an external being, which is gone now.

and per battle forum rules character have to fight to the best of their abilities when there's no info in the OP. And Jin at the best of his abilities is Post-Crown, which is his base form but operating at his highest levels of power. Said form which blitzed Satan who himself is already on par with Midora.

1. "characters to the best of their abilities" doesn't mean the strongest version there was. Just that they will try to use the full arsenal available and not hold back.

2. OP does show which Jin he is using, and that is normal jin with supreme limiter, as he has been in the entire series. If you doubt it, you can ask him. I feel like you already know this.

3. If you are still going to insist on this kind of loopholes, note that the reborn satan has no impressive feats at all, he never even saw old speed mode jin. and the new "base" jin as you mentioned barely has about two feats to choose from.

  1. Jin at his strongest is faster than Midora in base
  2. Midora has never tanked striking power on Jin's lvl
  3. Minority World has no counter to the amount of clones littering the battlefield. Midora can't use Minority World to do that to a hundreds of separate people at the same time. Once Jin clogs the battlefield with clones, Midora will have no way to know which is the real one to use Minority World on.
  4. Gourmet Luck has never reflected anything with Star wide AOE

1. But since they both start at base, midora can go for his hax and take down jin.

2. Base midora can take base jin, at least enough to realize he needs his hax, and those hax take care of jin's stronger level.

3. Minority world doesn't need to counter the clones at all, it only needs to work on the main jin, and having clones doesn't stop him from being affected. Midora could just use intimidation to take down the clones if he even needs to.

4. With his heart not pumping blood, neurons not transmitting signals, and atoms possibly disintegrating, jin is not giving any star level aoe. So that's not a problem at all. whatever leftover, if even required, gourmet luck causes to miss, or simply regenerated.

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#173 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

I don't see how referencing the speed of light changes anything. It gives him sight of the future, it is still precognition. And it allowed him to Joie's future movements. I don't see how that is speed for anyone involved.

Yes he uses precog stacked with back channels to give himself that level of reaction speed. The speed of light is being referenced as a benchmark for how fast and far Starjun's speed goes.

I mean, it states he created a gap between his and Joa's time space. Not sure how that's anything but perception speed.

How is lightening timing supposed to be impressive here.

By itself it's not. It is impressive when you consider how early that was, and Toriko after becoming vastly more powerful was blitzed so badly by Bambina that despite having four similarly fast teammates they were beyond helpless to react to a playing around Bambina in restricted form. I don't really see how blitzing four characters much faster than lightning is anything but casual light speed.

Bambina's feat is light speed at best,

Each of the Mold Spears was light speed and he casually dodged them all just bobbing his head around. The only thing that was "at best" light speed were the spears that Bambina stomped in speed.

Back channels is time manipulation.

Which can be used for speed.

Midora vs Joie is just more scaling. 0.01 seconds is hardly fast.

No. Performing it against someone barely slower than super up Starjun is.

I don't recall the acacia's cell feat, do you have scans for that?

No Caption Provided

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#174 Edited by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this because it's not vague to me at all. Him being massively weakened from limit removers could also be due in part to Mujin sealing all of his powers away.

I don't think the Holy Grail seals powers permanently. The King had his powers sealed but was still able to transfer them to Daewi.

He's never redirected anything with Star lvl AOE. Only large planets, and our Sun would dwarf the Toriko planet.

He's not "redirecting" anything, he's just making the part that covers his body bend away. He wouldn't need to encompass the whole AoE.

This would dwarf Acacia's hands:

He's never used Minority World on that scale. That AOE is enough to dwarf the Toriko planet as well.

He doesn't need to use it on all of them. With an attack that big only a couple of staffs would actually be directed Midora's way. He just needs to redirect those or as posted above, apply Minority World to the clones using them and make them unable to aim.

I don't think Mori would use an attack like that against a single opponent anyway.

Again, the range of Hungry Space isn't large enough to consume the entire attack. And it would be omni-directional to Midora

when the clones surround him like this:

He just needs to consume the stuff that's actually reaching him. Mori can't maintain an attack with that many clones for long at all and Midora can heal, so the attack would be finished and Midora would be left standing while Mori would be tired.

He wouldn't know which Midora is the real one to attack with MW at the beginning of the battle.

Why would it be hard to figure out via sensing or intimidation?

I still don't understand why you're restricting Mori to base as if he'll never use limit removers or speed mode for the whole battle. And since you're arguing Midora shutting him down with MW at the beginning of the fight, how many times has Midora done that in character? Reverse someone's body functions at the beginning of the fight?

He attacked Joa at the start of their fight. Joa only won because she could constantly keep his attacks from landing. He abused Minority World pretty thoroughly against Acacia. He doesn't need to do it first either, he's fast enough to run through several different attack types before Mori does anything.

I'm not convinced Mori is faster with speed mode either. His speed feat isn't that much better than Derous' laser.

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#175 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15592 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8008:

Yes he uses precog stacked with back channels to give himself that level of reaction speed. The speed of light is being referenced as a benchmark for how fast and far Starjun's speed goes.

I mean, it states he created a gap between his and Joa's time space. Not sure how that's anything but perception speed.

He uses pre-cog to predict his opponents future moves. He uses Back channels to actually follow through with that since he own speed isn't enough. Again the light speed doesn't relate to his own speed, It was there to explain how his future sight works.

By itself it's not. It is impressive when you consider how early that was, and Toriko after becoming vastly more powerful was blitzed so badly by Bambina that despite having four similarly fast teammates they were beyond helpless to react to a playing around Bambina in restricted form. I don't really see how blitzing four characters much faster than lightning is anything but casual light speed.

That is just ABC logic now. We don't know how much faster Toriko got.

Each of the Mold Spears was light speed and he casually dodged them all just bobbing his head around. The only thing that was "at best" light speed were the spears that Bambina stomped in speed.

Nope. Viz trasnlation and literally every other translation for that scene says other wise. You can bring up that scan of him saying ti was faster earlier but it would simply mean that the speed for retconned.

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Which can be used for speed.

Hardly and midora never used back channels like that.

No. Performing it against someone barely slower than super up Starjun is.

I don't recall the acacia's cell feat, do you have scans for that?

Someone who was barely trying. Joie new Midora couldn't do jack to him

That would only really be travel speed then.

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#176 Posted by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

you only have half portion of the sequence there. Here's the full version

I literally posted the full scene like 3 times in the thread. Don't insinuate that I cropped out parts to use against you.

they were also protecting him, jin actually doesn't notice the difference from shackles lifted but clearly feels and mention the protection

by your logic, every single feat Jin completed in the entire series was with the assistance of an external being, which is gone now

This argument is thoroughly farcical. Yes, we know Jin was being protected because it was stated both in those scans and by Jin himself, but Satan immediately states his power and damage were the same as before:

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But it's quite clear the "protection" had no bearing on his combat capabilities, nor gave him assistance in fights. To argue it as such is quite frankly ludicrous. If Jin was receiving assistance from an external being in all of his battles, then how come when the Loop or Binding broke he grew in strength? Wouldn't that mean he would get weaker? After the Crown broke Satan literaly shit his pants, started crying, complained that he could never beat him and called him a being from a "higher dimension":

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All the signs and contextual evidence point to the fact that the Loop of Binding was a limiter (even stated to confine him) not a buff. He was weakened the entire series; it makes 0 sense for the protection to assist him in battles considering his combat ability spiked after it broke.

1. "characters to the best of their abilities" doesn't mean the strongest version there was. Just that they will try to use the full arsenal available and not hold back.

To the best of their abilities also means no restrictions on their power. Jin was nerfed and weakened by a external force so he wasn't fighting to the best of his abilities. It's not my fault that version of Jin fighting at his normal levels of power also doubles as his strongest version.

2. OP does show which Jin he is using, and that is normal jin with supreme limiter, as he has been in the entire series. If you doubt it, you can ask him. I feel like you already know this.

The picture isn't a solid thing to go off of. Some threads feature fan art as the picture so it's not the picture that decides the version. It's current/standard when the thread was made and Jin had these feats at that time.

3. If you are still going to insist on this kind of loopholes, note that the reborn satan has no impressive feats at all, he never even saw old speed mode jin. and the new "base" jin as you mentioned barely has about two feats to choose from.

Lol "reborn" Satan was still him in phase 3, you can tell because his hair was still long. And phase 3 Satan is stronger than phase 2 who completed the feat of tagging Jin in speed mode. Plus that Satan punched Jin from the Sun to Earth and caught up immediately which is FTL anyway.

1. But since they both start at base, midora can go for his hax and take down jin.

2. Base midora can take base jin, at least enough to realize he needs his hax, and those hax take care of jin's stronger level.

Jin is faster than him in base so this is wrong.

3. Minority world doesn't need to counter the clones at all, it only needs to work on the main jin, and having clones doesn't stop him from being affected. Midora could just use intimidation to take down the clones if he even needs to.

That's my point exactly. Midora won't KNOW which Jin is the main one among an army of clones. Intimidation doesn't work on anyone physically stronger than you.

4. With his heart not pumping blood, neurons not transmitting signals, and atoms possibly disintegrating, jin is not giving any star level aoe. So that's not a problem at all. whatever leftover, if even required, gourmet luck causes to miss, or simply regenerated.

You'r making the assumption that Jin would already be under the effects of Minority World at the beginning of the fight which I've disproved against three different users several times each now. Midora gets blitzed and 2 or 3 shot.

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#177 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

Mori has an abundance of speed feats that are on par with all the ones you listed. First there's him blitzing First Crown Prince in base, kicking him three time over in quick succession before he could react:

How was that a blitz? The prince was immobile. There's a reason Mori had to damage his insides before he did that. They were fighting on par just fine before then.

Before Jin could even fully control Yeoui properly (calling it down for the first time) it went from the moon to Earth shorter than the time-frame it took a spear already touching Daewi's back to fully pierce him

Even assuming that the angel threw the spear at peak human speeds, the timeframe was under a second making it many times FTL.

I would point out that Mori saw this happen, so even before he called down Yeoui Daewi and the angels were somehow frozen to him.

But I'm about to take the feat one step further by adding more context. So to further reiterate how truly short the timeframe was, Taek Jae-Kal (a hypersonic opponent, seeing as he could fight Ilpyo who ignites the air with friction from speed alone) wasn't able to react when an angel threw a spear through his torso, even after he powered up

And that was Taek after absorbing the key, and weaker versions of him were hypersonic+. So it wasn't just less than a second it was a literal fraction of it (the spear was less than milimeters away from entering Daewi's skin, it would take the speed of sound within thousandths of a second to cross that distance, and that's a low end because Jae-Kal is far faster than the speed of sounds); Making Yeoui at least hundreds of times FTL and Jin even faster for blitzing someone who reacted to it. And he did that in base.

Taek was caught by surprise. Also he's a tank who relied on healing, he wouldn't have even tried to dodge the spears.

Moving on, another FTL feat was him crossing a solar system in seconds. But he didn't just leave a solar system, he went from one solar system to an entirely different one (meaning the he crossed the space in between) and the distance between solar system is light years on average. Even if it took Jin a full minute to cross it (extreme lowball) that'd still be millions upon millions of times FTL.

I don't think it was stated he was in a different solar system.

Then all the speed feats Jin can scale to are as follows:

  • Ohkwang throwing two planets at each other from their locations in the solar system in the blink of an eye
  • Satan casually pulling Jupiter and throwing it at Earth like a skipping stone, at speeds done so fast it look like the planet teleported. Jupiter is over 30 light minutes away from Earth btw
  • Han launching Mars at Earth instantly
  • Satan blitzing Jin from Earth to the Sun
  • Satan punching Jin from the Sun back to Earth
  • Jin extinguishing the Sun for the duration of a 100 picoseconds. I stopped arguing it as a combat speed feat a while ago but it still counts for perceptions since he was aware of what was happening

What does hurling planets have to do with combat speed? None of them outreacted said planets while they were moving.

Mori wasn't aware of anything during the 100 picoseconds as far as we know. He just kicked and it happened.

So yeah, Jin is pretty freaking fast both by standalone speed feats and ones he can scale to. And if you want to count stuff like Toriko lightning timing early in the series, not that a mere clone of Jin [Mori Hui] operating at a fraction of Jin power moved faster than teleportation...

Hui's stated power was 60% of Jin's which would be quite a bit more than a fraction, although that's completely untrue by feats. Regardless we don't know how Mandeok's teleportation works.

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#178 Posted by kaiocool (779 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

Ok what? There is absolutly no indication Acacia tries to devour it. We don't even see him open his mouth. This is a huge assumption on your part. You can literally see in the scan where the blast hit acacia and where is mouth is.(Which is still closed by the way) Acacia didn't react to it.

huh, you could have said you didn't read toriko. acacia doesn't eat attacks with his mouth, he uses neo, which forms on his torso to eat them. like this

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he clearly notices the laser coming towards him after it was fired in this panel

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and in this panel, neo in his chest, tries to eat it but the laser is too much

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that is why joa remarks on both things they tried against it being useless in the next panel.

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I already explained the Joie aspect. We see the blast fired, then Joie sends his attack and it just hits the blast that had already gone past him

the speed part - the laser is fast enough to reach other star system in seconds

and joa's sees it, and tries to intercept it with her own attack, which reaches it before it can even travel a few meter, showing clear mftl combat speed

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I also argued why I think it is slower, because of other instances. Also speed mode is a transformation not an attack. It gives you speed. Attack speeds aren't constant ever. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Even jin looks slower in other instances, his speed mode doesn't look near ftl in any other case. You are just saying "attacks can change in speed but transformations can't" like a law set in stone, and it isn't.

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#179 Edited by kaiocool (779 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan said:

@kaiocool:

I literally posted the full scene like 3 times in the thread. Don't insinuate that I cropped out parts to use against you.

All the signs and contextual evidence point to the fact that the Loop of Binding was a limiter (even stated to confine him) not a buff. He was weakened the entire series; it makes 0 sense for the protection to assist him in battles considering his combat ability spiked after it broke.

This argument is thoroughly farcical. Yes, we know Jin was being protected because it was stated both in those scans and by Jin himself, but Satan immediately states his power and damage were the same as before:

But in that paragraph, you only showed half side, so I completed the remaining half for whoever reading.

But it's quite clear the "protection" had no bearing on his combat capabilities, nor gave him assistance in fights. To argue it as such is quite frankly ludicrous. If Jin was receiving assistance from an external being in all of his battles, then how come when the Loop or Binding broke he grew in strength? Wouldn't that mean he would get weaker? After the Crown broke Satan literaly shit his pants, started crying, complained that he could never beat him and called him a being from a "higher dimension": To the best of their abilities also means no restrictions on their power. Jin was nerfed and weakened by a external force so he wasn't fighting to the best of his abilities. It's not my fault that version of Jin fighting at his normal levels of power also doubles as his strongest version.

I don't see why it is "quite clear" at all - or why that argument is any more ludicrous than you arguing the "shackles" were relevant, when jin only even notices the protection. satan is freaking out simply because he might be a being from a higher dimension - a title which doesn't actually give him any concrete boost to be used in battles.

If you claim he was shackled all series, I can also show that he had external assist all series, so you'll end up worse than you started. His new "higher dimensional" position is a great title, but it doesn't give him anything concrete to use in battles. His physical power is the same as it was as per satan, so your idea of him being significantly faster/stronger now falls apart anyway.

The picture isn't a solid thing to go off of. Some threads feature fan art as the picture so it's not the picture that decides the version. It's current/standard when the thread was made and Jin had these feats at that time.

this thread actually has a direct picture of jin, and it is with the limiter.

Lol "reborn" Satan was still him in phase 3, you can tell because his hair was still long. And phase 3 Satan is stronger than phase 2 who completed the feat of tagging Jin in speed mode.

Phase 3 Satan is after rebirth, who doesn't ever interact with pre rebirth phase 2, who tags speed mode jin. In fact, he looses to the new "base" jin, whose physical still power is the same as before. Since you insist on being so technical with versions, go ahead and use all the feats you can find of these new versions. The earlier feats are not usable, since he had an external assist amping him by an unknown degree. Or we can stop this nitpicking and debate normally.

Plus that Satan punched Jin from the Sun to Earth and caught up immediately which is FTL anyway.

ftl, yes. fast enough to even keep up with midora, no.

Jin is faster than him in base so this is wrong.

Jin, in whichever "base" you choose, has no speed feats that make him faster than midora at all.

That's my point exactly. Midora won't KNOW which Jin is the main one among an army of clones. Intimidation doesn't work on anyone physically stronger than you. You'r making the assumption that Jin would already be under the effects of Minority World at the beginning of the fight which I've disproved against three different users several times each now. Midora gets blitzed and 2 or 3 shot.

your only counter to minority world so far is that he will make clones, but you have never explained how that will make original Jin immune to it's effects. Nor have you explained why the clones will hold up to an intimidation from midora. So no, Jin cannot blitz, nor can he 2-3 shot, because he is dying of heart fail.

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#180 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15592 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

huh, you could have said you didn't read toriko. acacia doesn't eat attacks with his mouth, he uses neo, which forms on his torso to eat them. like this

That was after Acacia ate neo and they merged prior to that. They would swap places each time. Something they couldn't even do when Derous fired the laser.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

the speed part - the laser is fast enough to reach other star system in seconds

and joa's sees it, and tries to intercept it with her own attack, which reaches it before it can even travel a few meter, showing clear mftl combat speed

Joie is guy And you can see his slicer hit the laser after it as passed him.

Even jin looks slower in other instances, his speed mode doesn't look near ftl in any other case. You are just saying "attacks can change in speed but transformations can't" like a law set in stone, and it isn't.

I'm not even talking about looks. I gave a direct comparison.

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#181 Posted by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8008:

I don't think the Holy Grail seals powers permanently. The King had his powers sealed but was still able to transfer them to Daewi.

That's a detail that's been bothering me for a while. But I think Mujin poured more power into using it after he stabbed Taejin and sealed Mori's powers. When Jin fell from the sky he was cursing Mujin's name:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Then moments before he reverted into a baby he said he was unable to control his powers and blamed it on Mujin and the Grail

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It's clear that limit removers weren't the source of the power loss, and even if they were a factor they weren't the main one.

He's not "redirecting" anything, he's just making the part that covers his body bend away. He wouldn't need to encompass the whole AoE.

Both times he used Gourmet Luck to make attacks miss he chose to redirect the entire scale of the attack not just the part that covers his body. When he redirected Gourmet Buffet/Viking it was over an extremely small area compared to Gourmet Spank so it makes sense that it appears he redirected the portion that was aimed to his body (that and because minority world reflected them all back) rather than the entire scale of the attack.. the latter which he did.

He doesn't need to use it on all of them. With an attack that big only a couple of staffs would actually be directed Midora's way. He just needs to redirect those or as posted above, apply Minority World to the clones using them and make them unable to aim.

If he doesn't redirect all of them, the staffs that don't come for his body will hit the planet and end up destroying it, and Midora can't survive without oxygen. You also didn't counter the omni-directional statement I made.

I don't think Mori would use an attack like that against a single opponent anyway.

What you personally think doesn't really matter. He abuses clones quite frequently and when he's not pulling off large scale attacks like that he's amping them with speed mode and blitzing. So take your pick.

Mori can't maintain an attack with that many clones for long at all and Midora can heal, so the attack would be finished and Midora would be left standing while Mori would be tired.

I'm not worried about this at all; Mori has excellent stamina showings. Back in season 2 he fought the guy who pretended to kidnap Taejin, and was running low on health before he proceeded to fight Ilpyo's entire team. And in the Ragnarok arc, he fought through the last seven floors of the Tower without stopping, and against the 7th Floor Master he used clones and speed mode. Then he continued to battle and by the time he reached Earth, he fought against the Gods (Michael, Uriel, Garuda and Beelzebub) and he used clones + speed mode yet again but this time it was in addition to lightning spam. Finally, he caught wind for a few seconds before fighting Satan which was the most taxing battle of his life. Then, even more tired, he fought R after that.

So he's fought multiple heavy battles consecutively while operating at full power. He will have no issues of fatigue when fighting Midora who is a single opponent.

Why would it be hard to figure out via sensing or intimidation?

Intimidation doesn't work on anyone physically stronger than you and sensing won't differentiate clones from real or fake, considering they all have his stats.

He attacked Joa at the start of their fight. Joa only won because she could constantly keep his attacks from landing. He abused Minority World pretty thoroughly against Acacia. He doesn't need to do it first either, he's fast enough to run through several different attack types before Mori does anything.

Ok.

I'm not convinced Mori is faster with speed mode either. His speed feat isn't that much better than Derous' laser.

You can't prove the laser didn't gain speed and momentum after it left the atmosphere and went to space. Jin's solar system feat is hundreds of times better regardless, because he didn't just leave the solar system (which it what the extra-dimensional laser did) but he went from solar system to entirely different one which means he crossed the space in-between; said space which is several light years on average.

How was that a blitz? The prince was immobile. There's a reason Mori had to damage his insides before he did that. They were fighting on par just fine before then.

He wasn't immobile what are you talking about? The best you can say is that he was stunned. Anyway if that instance doesn't work for you here's another one:

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Taek was caught by surprise.

The first blade caught him by surprise, but he was aware of ones that followed yet couldn't react to them.

Also he's a tank who relied on healing, he wouldn't have even tried to dodge the spears.

He dodged separate attacks on different occasions just fine.

I don't think it was stated he was in a different solar system.

Ilpyo searched the entirety of a single solar system for months and couldn't find Jin. We also saw the type of planets in that solar system, but when we checked on Jin we was in a location that didn't have planets at all. He was clearly outside of Ilpyo's solar system.

What does hurling planets have to do with combat speed? None of them outreacted said planets while they were moving.

It's not their physical combat speed but it's the speed of their attacks. I'm sure it'd still make them FTL. Also, Han reacted to Jupiter after Satan threw it at those speeds. I've seen you argue that the planets stopped moving after they reached Earth against guys like Prince, but that's only because Han willingly slowed their descent. We see Han apply Repulsive Force proving he was the one who struggled to slow Jupiter

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It was initially too heavy so it broke Mars but the fact that it didn't collide with Earth immediately despite it's gravity is proof Han was holding it in place.

Mori wasn't aware of anything during the 100 picoseconds as far as we know. He just kicked and it happened.

Considering even the humans on Earth felt a slight anomaly, I would say that's a stretch, because of how close he was to it and his own perceptions.

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#182 Posted by kaiocool (779 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

That was after Acacia ate neo and they merged prior to that. They would swap places each time. Something they couldn't even do when Derous fired the laser.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

they could. He even ate jirou's punch with his torso mouth - which happened well before the dragon king laser.

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and Joa even mentions it being stronger than neo's devouring, you even see neo's face on acacia's chest trying to eat it.

Joie is guy(That's basic Toriko knowledge)

in Frozhe's body, which he keeps switching to. also basic toriko knowledge.

And you can see his slicer hit the laser after it as passed him.

so the slicer still intercepts it before the mftl laser can even reach acacia. Where it is past joa or nor, I don't understand why you keep bringing up - it wasn't even fired at him.

I'm not even talking about looks. I gave a direct comparison.

your "direct comparison" is them not reaching other star system the other time? Then jin's burst mode did not instantly reach any other star systems the other time it was used either.

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#183 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15592 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

they could. He even ate jirou's punch with his torso mouth - which happened well before the dragon king laser.

You clearly don't see acacia's face when he attacks. You only see his face after the attack is eaten and he changes back, Neo has a fair of shapeshifting. So I stand by my point that the laser was too fast.

so the slicer still intercepts it before the mftl laser can even reach acacia. Where it is past joa or nor, I don't understand why you keep bringing up - it wasn't even fired at him.

It doesn't intercept anything. Hitting the energy after the blast has gone past isn't MFTL.

in Frozhe's body, which he keeps switching to. also basic toriko knowledge.

OK you clearly have no idea what you are talking. First of all that doesn't change the fact that Joie is still a he. Secondly he is Frozhe reincarnated and was turned into male due to the effects of pair. Acacia was able to revert this with his power. But he is male, in a male body. I seriosuly can't believe you have the audacity to say I don't read Toriko and go one with this BS.

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your "direct comparison" is them not reaching other star system the other time? Then jin's burst mode did not instantly reach any other star systems the other time it was used either.

Ok this has to be dumbest thing you have said so far. When an attack is fired, it is fired, and keeps going. Jin controls where his own body moves, and in no other case did he need to go to another solar system.

I'm done with you. Don't go accusing people of not reading Toriko ad then show a lack of knowledge yourself.(Literally the only reason I brought up the Joie he thing, otherwise i wouldn't have cared). Do not tag me again.

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#184 Edited by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

I don't see why it is "quite clear" at all - or why that argument is any more ludicrous than you arguing the "shackles" were relevant, when jin only even notices the protection. satan is freaking out simply because he might be a being from a higher dimension - a title which doesn't actually give him any concrete boost to be used in battles.

It's ludicrous because you're arguing Jin being at the same level of power before the binding broke and after it, which is a statement directly contradicted both by Satan, the narrator, and whoever was in the flashback as well as Jin's feats. The title wasn't why he was freaking out... he literally called him the Supreme God and said he could never beat him. It's obvious that's because Jin was stronger than him. I mean Jin stomped him after the binding broke and he was losing like seconds before.

If you claim he was shackled all series, I can also show that he had external assist all series, so you'll end up worse than you started. His new "higher dimensional" position is a great title, but it doesn't give him anything concrete to use in battles. His physical power is the same as it was as per satan, so your idea of him being significantly faster/stronger now falls apart anyway.

Physical power isn't the same thing as speed so my argument doesn't fall apart. YOUR argument does however, because Jin blitzed Satan on-panel twice after the Crown broke and trying to refute that (which is what you're doing) is literally arguing against scans and what we can see.

this thread actually has a direct picture of jin, and it is with the limiter.

Ok.

Phase 3 Satan is after rebirth,

False. He entered phase 3 before his first death:

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Looks like someone needs to read the series again.

who doesn't ever interact with pre rebirth phase 2, who tags speed mode jin.

What are you even talking about? Satan needs to "interact" with a weaker version of himself?

In fact, he looses to the new "base" jin, whose physical still power is the same as before.

This is false. Either we're arguing speed and he became faster afterwards.

Since you insist on being so technical with versions, go ahead and use all the feats you can find of these new versions. The earlier feats are not usable, since he had an external assist amping him by an unknown degree. Or we can stop this nitpicking and debate normally.

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But seriously, I would say the guy who's restricting Jin to base is the one being technical with versions. I'm still laughing at that external help nonsense which is an argument you made up on the fly.

Jin, in whichever "base" you choose, has no speed feats that make him faster than midora at all.

Midora doesn't have a single speed feat to his name that can match Jin's solar system one.

your only counter to minority world so far is that he will make clones, but you have never explained how that will make original Jin immune to it's effects.

Because he can only use Minority World's internal reversing effects on single bodies at a time. He won't know which Jin is the real one among 100s of clones and will be wasting time attacking fakes, and Jin only needs a second to remove his limiters or go in speed mode, which is game.

Nor have you explained why the clones will hold up to an intimidation from midora. So no, Jin cannot blitz, nor can he 2-3 shot, because he is dying of heart fail.

Jin's clones have his stats, and intimidation doesn't work on anyone physically stronger you. Inb4 you argue Midora as stronger than Jin, lol.

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#185 Edited by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8008@kaiocool@marc_55 Where did the notion that Jin always starts fights in base come from anyway? Ever since he awakened God mode he always starts fights with his armor on. The only exceptions would be with Sujin and R but both of those times were because he was tired.

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#186 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

He uses pre-cog to predict his opponents future moves. He uses Back channels to actually follow through with that since he own speed isn't enough. Again the light speed doesn't relate to his own speed, It was there to explain how his future sight works.

That's not what it said, it said he uses Back Channels to expand the speed gap.

Why was speed of all things brought up if it wasn't relevant?

That is just ABC logic now. We don't know how much faster Toriko got.

We know he would've gotten whopped by just about everyone at the Cooking Festival and would've been stomped by Gaoh. But even if he didn't get any faster, this would still be a light speed feat, never mind how much faster Bambina would be if he actually tried.

Nope. Viz trasnlation and literally every other translation for that scene says other wise. You can bring up that scan of him saying ti was faster earlier but it would simply mean that the speed for retconned.

Coco's full of BS if that's what he actually said to be honest. The Mold Spears weren't even the only things he dodged there.

Hardly and midora never used back channels like that.

I don't even remember if Midora had back channels. It was just an example of speed, given Toriko stretched a second to a month with his and Acacia moved at speeds where the 8 Kings were frozen.

Someone who was barely trying. Joie new Midora couldn't do jack to him

Wouldn't have mattered. Joa straight up didn't see the attacks and the orbs had to absorb the damage for him.

That would only really be travel speed then.

The cell was caught by Moon Whale moving at those speeds.

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#187 Posted by Sy8000 (34796 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: I've decided I'll avoid arguing the actual fight because I might have to argue the other side in the tourney and I'd rather not talk myself out of own arguments.

That's a detail that's been bothering me for a while. But I think Mujin poured more power into using it after he stabbed Taejin and sealed Mori's powers. When Jin fell from the sky he was cursing Mujin's name:

Then moments before he reverted into a baby he said he was unable to control his powers and blamed it on Mujin and the Grail

It's clear that limit removers weren't the source of the power loss, and even if they were a factor they weren't the main one.

I think his power was sealed then and he opted to de-age. Not sure what that means about how long he loses his powers. Honestly this wouldn't be the first time the in-universe mechanics were inconsistent.

You can't prove the laser didn't gain speed and momentum after it left the atmosphere and went to space. Jin's solar system feat is hundreds of times better regardless, because he didn't just leave the solar system (which it what the extra-dimensional laser did) but he went from solar system to entirely different one which means he crossed the space in-between; said space which is several light years on average.

A laser wouldn't gain momentum.

I don't remember any proof Mori was in a solar system. He was outside the one Oraegak used to be but we don't know if he was in a completely different one or just on a drifting planetoid.

He wasn't immobile what are you talking about? The best you can say is that he was stunned. Anyway if that instance doesn't work for you here's another one:

He was stunned, damaged and unmoving. They were keeping up with each other for the entire fight up until Natak got injured so it's very clear he was hindered by then. Mori outsped him in the other instance you posted, so he was evidently a bit faster, but nowhere near blitzing level.

Also that particular kick hits three times by nature even against similarly fast opponents.

The first blade caught him by surprise, but he was aware of ones that followed yet couldn't react to them.

He dodged separate attacks on different occasions just fine.

He dodged attacks when he wasn't suped up on the Key and drunk with power.

Ilpyo searched the entirety of a single solar system for months and couldn't find Jin. We also saw the type of planets in that solar system, but when we checked on Jin we was in a location that didn't have planets at all. He was clearly outside of Ilpyo's solar system.

Outside the solar system doesn't mean in a different one.

It's not their physical combat speed but it's the speed of their attacks. I'm sure it'd still make them FTL. Also, Han reacted to Jupiter after Satan threw it at those speeds. I've seen you argue that the planets stopped moving after they reached Earth against guys like Prince, but that's only because Han willingly slowed their descent. We see Han apply Repulsive Force proving he was the one who struggled to slow Jupiter

It was initially too heavy so it broke Mars but the fact that it didn't collide with Earth immediately despite it's gravity is proof Han was holding it in place.

Pretty sure Mars is what stopped it and Han was just struggling with Satan to push it away at that point. The descent seemed to have slowed somewhat at least given Jupiter crossed that distance much faster than everyone was fighting.

Considering even the humans on Earth felt a slight anomaly, I would say that's a stretch, because of how close he was to it and his own perceptions.

Everyone feeling it was a strange and completely unexplained phenomenon as stated in the narration. Humans can't actually perceive that short a span of time, they just all simultaneously got a feeling.

@sy8008@kaiocool@marc_55 Where did the notion that Jin always starts fights in base come from anyway? Ever since he awakened God mode he always starts fights with his armor on. The only exceptions would be with Sujin and R but both of those times were because he was tired.

When I say base mode I mean Jecheondaesong mode but without limit removers or speed mode.

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#188 Posted by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8008:

I've decided I'll avoid arguing the actual fight because I might have to argue the other side in the tourney and I'd rather not talk myself out of own arguments.

Yeah I saw that. Good luck, because Juiceboks is using Midora.

I think his power was sealed then and he opted to de-age. Not sure what that means about how long he loses his powers. Honestly this wouldn't be the first time the in-universe mechanics were inconsistent.

I don't think him willingly de-aging is practical even if he was capable of doing it. But we can both agree that it was inconsistent; that or Mujin only sealed one type of Ohkwang's power, because Ohkwang's power is split into two sections (Sage's Eye of Wisdom, Sage's body-- the latter which Mira inherited) while all of Jin's power comes from him being the Monkey King.

A laser wouldn't gain momentum.

But what proof is there of the laser traveling at a static, constant speed through the vacuum of space? The same logic can be applied to Saiyan Saga characters to make them FTL if you're just guessing it did.

I don't remember any proof Mori was in a solar system. He was outside the one Oraegak used to be but we don't know if he was in a completely different one or just on a drifting planetoid.

Sage Realm was a planet. The location Mori was in had planets in the form of floating polygons:

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And even if he was in the star system Oraeguk belonged too, that'd still be a different one from the star system Ilpyo searched.

He was stunned, damaged and unmoving. They were keeping up with each other for the entire fight up until Natak got injured so it's very clear he was hindered by then. Mori outsped him in the other instance you posted, so he was evidently a bit faster, but nowhere near blitzing level.

Blitzes are unquantifiable anyway so being faster is good enough.

Also that particular kick hits three times by nature even against similarly fast opponents.

No it's because he's just that fast enough to do it. It's not like the colored apparitions are different people, it's shown to illustrate that he out-speeds them to such a degree that he kicks them three times. It was described in the first instance he used it that a kick is delivered to each side of the head before spinning around and kicking the back of their heads.

He dodged attacks when he wasn't suped up on the Key and drunk with power.

I suppose so.

Outside the solar system doesn't mean in a different one.

But we saw him in a different solar system. He wasn't floating in random space. His location even had a ground and trees:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

..Meaning he was on a planet. And if he was on a planet outside of the star system Ilpyo searched, that means he was on a planet in a different one.

Pretty sure Mars is what stopped it and Han was just struggling with Satan to push it away at that point. The descent seemed to have slowed somewhat at least given Jupiter crossed that distance much faster than everyone was fighting.

Mars didn't stop it; it shattered on contact. And after Mars broke Earth still didn't smash into it immediately which is what logically should have happened lest there be an external force preventing that, said force which could only have been Han (who we see apply repulsion). So he reacted to it being thrown. He also slowed down Mars before it hit Earth too which gave Uriel enough time to catch it.

Everyone feeling it was a strange and completely unexplained phenomenon as stated in the narration. Humans can't actually perceive that short a span of time, they just all simultaneously got a feeling.

At the end of the day, you can admit they got a feeling. If they could feel something 96 million miles away while being regular humans, then there's no way Jin, who's superhuman, couldn't feel anything while up close. And Satan was killed within that picosecond, considering he was dead after the Sun reignited. Meaning Jin could at least perceive things that take place withing picoseconds or else he wouldn't have noticed Satan's death (something he clearly noticed because he was surprised that Satan came back to life).

When I say base mode I mean Jecheondaesong mode but without limit removers or speed mode.

Dude.. that's not base that's God mode. And if you seriously mean to tell me that's the version you were arguing this entire time, I feel like I wasted several hours of my life because I was digging for speed feats of him in base lol.

Anyways after scrutinizing Derous' laser feat, there's actually no proof it traveled outside of the star system at all. It only went by an asteroid and 2 planets. That means Satan's Jupiter toss covered the same distance, and in a shorter time (he said "Ok then" and the very next panel we see Jupiter's shadow fall across Han's face, indicating it's arrival. That means it covered that distance in one panel, faster than Derous' laser which took 5-6 panels starting from when it was fired). Han reacted to it, Satan kept up with Han in base and Jin was fighting Satan in Phase 2.

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#189 Posted by kaiocool (779 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

That was after Acacia ate neo and they merged prior to that. They would swap places each time. Something they couldn't even do when Derous fired the laser.

You clearly don't see acacia's face when he attacks. You only see his face after the attack is eaten and he changes back, Neo has a fair of shapeshifting. So I stand by my point that the laser was too fast.

so, you want a clear shot of neo on acacia's torso before the Laser instance, and you won't accept anything less no matter how obvious it is. Ok, I'll oblige. Before Dragon king laser, and before acacia ate neo, he did use his torso mouth, to eat toriko's punch.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

here is a clean, zoomed in view, which shows him having a torso mouth way before he fought eight kings

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here's one from the same chapter as the original scan right after trying to eat the laser, the very first time he is shown after trying to eat the laser, he is actually shown with his torso mouth at the time

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clear enough for you?

It doesn't intercept anything. Hitting the energy after the blast has gone past isn't MFTL.

ok. I guess my wording cant make it clear enough so I draw you a picture

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So joa is clearly seen to see and try to intercept an attack which reaches other star systems instantly, in the timespan it can move a few meter. That is as mftl as combat speed can get.

OK you clearly have no idea what you are talking. First of all that doesn't change the fact that Joie is still a he. Secondly he is Frozhe reincarnated and was turned into male due to the effects of pair. Acacia was able to revert this with his power. But he is male, in a male body.

I was just explaining why I still call joa a she, reincarnation of acacia's wife and all. But ok. If you want me to call joa he, I will.

Ok this has to be dumbest thing you have said so far. When an attack is fired, it is fired, and keeps going. Jin controls where his own body moves, and in no other case did he need to go to another solar system.

because you keep taking things literally without even trying to understand points they are trying to make, and my English is second language

Jin doesn't show "reach another star system in seconds" speed any more than once, but we still consider his burst speed would still be the same in other instances. There is no reason to say Dragon king laser is slower in other attack, if you say speed mode is not any slower and can draw from it's earlier showing

I seriosuly can't believe you have the audacity to say I don't read Toriko and go one with this BS. I'm done with you. Don't go accusing people of not reading Toriko ad then show a lack of knowledge yourself.(Literally the only reason I brought up the Joie he thing, otherwise i wouldn't have cared).

I thought it would be obvious to a toriko follower that acacia's own mouth being closed =/= him not devouring attack, because he does that many times in the series. The point of saying that was I did not present as much context to the feat as I would have to someone who doesn't read the series. I had audacity to question you is because you made a mistake which looked obvious to me, so instead of assuming you just didn't pay attention, I chose to explain the full context like I would to a non-reader. But apparently questioning you on making mistakes is an offense.

Do not tag me again.

Sure. When you feel like you can put up an argument, reply to this message. I will only respond to you after you respond to me, if you do.

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#190 Edited by kaiocool (779 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan said:

@kaiocool:

It's ludicrous because you're arguing Jin being at the same level of power before the binding broke and after it, which is a statement directly contradicted both by Satan, the narrator, and whoever was in the flashback as well as Jin's feats. The title wasn't why he was freaking out... he literally called him the Supreme God and said he could never beat him. It's obvious that's because Jin was stronger than him. I mean Jin stomped him after the binding broke and he was losing like seconds before.

Physical power isn't the same thing as speed so my argument doesn't fall apart. YOUR argument does however, because Jin blitzed Satan on-panel twice after the Crown broke and trying to refute that (which is what you're doing) is literally arguing against scans and what we can see.

This is false. Either we're arguing speed and he became faster afterwards.

It's no more ludicrous than you trying to say "base" jin after limit break has the speed more than old speed mode and power of his limit breaker forms, when we both know he isn't. If you can insist on one technicality, I can insist on another so you are no better off.

also, when does satan keep up with speed mode?

False. He entered phase 3 before his first death: Looks like someone needs to read the series again. What are you even talking about? Satan needs to "interact" with a weaker version of himself?

I guess you need this explaned. Yes, he was phase 3 before his first death.

But the reborn satan has no impressive feats - phase 3 or not, and since you're doing your best to mix up versions, I am also going to insist on asking for his post rebirth showings, depleted of more than 1.5 of his 3 lives.

But seriously, I would say the guy who's restricting Jin to base is the one being technical with versions.

I am not restricting jin to base at all - just saying he starts there, and if he activates his limiters, midora can activate his hax

I'm still laughing at that external help nonsense which is an argument you made up on the fly.

it came up because you only showed his shackles being removed but ignored that his assistance is now gone, too. His feats from before are jin+shackles+assistance, if you factor one in you also factor the other, so if you insist on post headband break is the new "base", I can insist his old feats are with assistance, and hence cannot be used since he no longer has that assistance. Which leaves you with about 3 feats for the new "base" jin.

Midora doesn't have a single speed feat to his name that can match Jin's solar system one.

He does, joa very easily reacted to Dragon king's laser, which also reached other solar system instantly, yet he got blitzed by midora 8 times in 0.01 second

Because he can only use Minority World's internal reversing effects on single bodies at a time. He won't know which Jin is the real one among 100s of clones and will be wasting time attacking fakes, and Jin only needs a second to remove his limiters or go in speed mode, which is game.

Jin's clones have his stats, and intimidation doesn't work on anyone physically stronger you. Inb4 you argue Midora as stronger than Jin, lol.

when did mori jin maintain more than three clones, who have the feats to be stronger than midora?

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#191 Edited by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

This is becoming circular and so I'll only respond to the points that will progress the debate, rather than entertain the ignorance of your repeated arguments.

also, when does satan keep up with speed mode?

No offense, but maybe if you read the series you would know. Satan tagged Jin twice in speed mode during their fight. After Jin killed his first set of clones Satan tagged him midair and punched him to the ground, stepping on top of him. Jin sliced his legs off immediately after. The second instance was when Jin tried to escape to the sky and Satan kicked him through the Sky Castle. You can tell it's speed mode because of the way Jin's crown was shaped.

But the reborn satan has no impressive feats - phase 3 or not, and since you're doing your best to mix up versions, I am also going to insist on asking for his post rebirth showings, depleted of more than 1.5 of his 3 lives.

Satan doesn't need additional feats after his revival for us to know he's still powerful. All he's doing is coming back to life; it's not a separate version of Satan as he's just returning to the way he was. He was still in Phase 3, so all his feats from previous forms apply (like tossing Jupiter in base, breaking Yeoui, absorbing the surface of the sun, tanking blows from Jin at 250k, creating 200 quadrillion+ clones, etc.). Plus he does have showings, like punching Jin from the Sun back to Earth and catching up soon thereafter. It's consistent with the feats he showed before.

I am not restricting jin to base at all - just saying he starts there, and if he activates his limiters, midora can activate his hax

Jin doesn't start fights in base anymore. Ever since he got God mode he almost always starts fights with his armor on (Yongpyo), the only exception being his fights with Sujin and R and that's only because he was tired from continuous fighting. He's not gonna start in base here so yes you are restricting him to that form for no reason at all.

it came up because you only showed his shackles being removed but ignored that his assistance is now gone, too. His feats from before are jin+shackles+assistance, if you factor one in you also factor the other, so if you insist on post headband break is the new "base", I can insist his old feats are with assistance, and hence cannot be used since he no longer has that assistance. Which leaves you with about 3 feats for the new "base" jin.

Prove that the protection Jin had gave him assistance in combat.

He does, joa very easily reacted to Dragon king's laser, which also reached other solar system instantly, yet he got blitzed by midora 8 times in 0.01 second

It didn't leave the solar system; it traveled past an asteroid and two planets (which is interplanetary distance) and it took 6 panels for that to happen. As opposed to Satan's Jupiter toss which is faster as it covered the exact same distance in 1 panel, and Han reacted to that toss by catching Jupiter via slowing it's descent and Jin is massively faster than Han. Plus, Joa dodging Derous' laser could have very well been due to Gourmet Luck, because if she dodged it by raw speed it would contradict the fact Acacia was tagged by it as Acacia was faster at the time. Not only that, you can't prove that the laser remained at a constant speed from the moment it was fired and didn't accelerate when it left to space.

when did mori jin maintain more than three clones,

Credibility officially destroyed. Jin has summoned and maintained more than 3 clones on numerous occasions... the fact that you don't know this has ended the debate between us.

who have the feats to be stronger than midora?

Jin himself is physically stronger than Midora, and all of his clones can use 100% of his power as long as they're near him.

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#192 Posted by GrandTOAA (686 posts) - - Show Bio

What does Minority World, Gourmet Luck and Hungry tongue do?

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#193 Posted by kaiocool (779 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

This is becoming circular and so I'll only respond to the points that will progress the debate, rather than entertain the ignorance of your repeated arguments.

ok

I will do the same to yours, but I'll also clear up your ignorance

No offense, but maybe if you read the series you would know. Satan tagged Jin twice in speed mode during their fight. After Jin killed his first set of clones Satan tagged him midair and punched him to the ground, stepping on top of him. Jin sliced his legs off immediately after. The second instance was when Jin tried to escape to the sky and Satan kicked him through the Sky Castle. You can tell it's speed mode because of the way Jin's crown was shaped.

I do read the series, and jin not have speed mode both times he was caught

This is his speed mode. He also used Geundoowun for this feat.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

this is him caught by satan after killing clones

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no speed mode

this is when he get kick by satan later

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no speed mode here either.

Satan doesn't need additional feats after his revival for us to know he's still powerful. All he's doing is coming back to life; it's not a separate version of Satan as he's just returning to the way he was. He was still in Phase 3, so all his feats from previous forms apply (like tossing Jupiter in base, breaking Yeoui, absorbing the surface of the sun, tanking blows from Jin at 250k, creating 200 quadrillion+ clones, etc.).

those are when he was no depleted of more than half of his lives, and his feats after rebirth are not even close to these

Plus he does have showings, like punching Jin from the Sun back to Earth and catching up soon thereafter. It's consistent with the feats he showed before.

yes. But using these, he cannot either blitz or one shot midora at all.

Prove that the protection Jin had gave him assistance in combat.

don't need to. Since you assumed, not proved, the shackles were to do with combat, it follows the protection was also to do with combat.

Plus, Joa dodging Derous' laser could have very well been due to Gourmet Luck, because if she dodged it by raw speed it would contradict the fact Acacia was tagged by it as Acacia was faster at the time.

Please look at the pages. I don't get what part of that feat is confusing people. I'll post the sequence and explanation again.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

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that was pure speed on joa's part. She sees it, and tries to intercept it, while acacia tries to devour it using neo like he did to most of the attacks before that.

It didn't leave the solar system; it traveled past an asteroid and two planets (which is interplanetary distance) and it took 6 panels for that to happen.

these are the planets, not a part of our solar system

No Caption Provided

also by that logic, we don't see jin crossing a single planet when he reaches king, it takes 3 panels for him to even leave the one he is on. So he can't blitz midora if he doesn't accelerate for a while anyway.

As opposed to Satan's Jupiter toss which is faster as it covered the exact same distance in 1 panel, and Han reacted to that toss by catching Jupiter via slowing it's descent and Jin is massively faster than Han.

except -

1. after it appeared above mars, han reacted to it when it is travelling interplanetary distance (even earth's atmosphere itself is hundreds of km wide), while joa reacts to it in the timespan it covers a few meter.

2. Jin is faster than han, but han has kept up with about everybody in the series. Joa caught midora off guard, and he couldn't even perceive getting killed 8 times in 0.01 seconds.

Not only that, you can't prove that the laser remained at a constant speed from the moment it was fired and didn't accelerate when it left to space.

Not any more than you can prove jin reach inter-star level speed without accelerating for a few sec - reaching king doesn't slow down at the last second, making his flight speed mftl but reflexes not even ftl. and making the blitz impossible, since he doesn't start at that speed.

Jin doesn't start fights in base anymore. Ever since he got God mode he almost always starts fights with his armor on (Yongpyo), the only exception being his fights with Sujin and R and that's only because he was tired from continuous fighting. He's not gonna start in base here so yes you are restricting him to that form for no reason at all.

Everyone is mixing up "base" jin on this thread I think. So you agree that he will start in god mode, but will still need to activate things like speed mode, and limiter release, right?

@kaiocool:

when did mori jin maintain more than three clones,

Credibility officially destroyed. Jin has summoned and maintained more than 3 clones on numerous occasions... the fact that you don't know this has ended the debate between us.

who have the feats to be stronger than midora?

Jin himself is physically stronger than Midora, and all of his clones can use 100% of his power as long as they're near him.

what

it is one full statement that you broke it half. this is the original, uncut statement

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let me explain how statements work. You read them completely, and understand the meaning. If you only take half at a time like you did above, they don't make much sense, so you will fail to understand what they were conveying.

"when did jin maintain more than three clones" and "when did jin maintain more than three clones who have the feats to be stronger than midora" are two different questions. I didn't ask you the first, I asked you the second. You got the first, because you cut my sentence in half. Hopefully you are able to understand this.

Now, you said jin will make a lot of clones - When has jin simultaneously maintained more than 3 clones, who individually have better feats than midora? I don't see why you say his fodder clones can take midora's intimidation.

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#194 Posted by Rustlingjimmy (1000 posts) - - Show Bio

damn getting good

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#195 Edited by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool:

I do read the series, and jin not have speed mode both times he was caught

This is his speed mode. He also used Geundoowun for this feat.

Yes he did, look at the shape of his crown. It didn't circle around his head like it normally does. It just pointed straight up. Jin doesn't need to summon his Sparrow Cloud (aka Geundoowun) in order for us to know he's in speed mode. He's activated speed mode multiple tims before without using his cloud. The consistent appearance change he receives throughout all the instances he activates speed mode are the shape of his crown and when the author directly tags it.

For example, do you see his Geundoowun when he activates speed mode here?

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Granted he summoned it moments later, but it's not the key indicator of when he activates it. The second instance of when he entered speed mode w/o the Cloud is here:

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The shape of his crown is the key indicator.

this is him caught by satan after killing clones

no speed mode

this is when he get kick by satan later

no speed mode here either.

In both scans you posted showed his crown as elongated points instead of circling his head. He was in speed mode.

don't need to. Since you assumed, not proved, the shackles were to do with combat, it follows the protection was also to do with combat.

So you have no proof that he had assistance? Good. You speculated, end of discussion. However, I already proved Jin getting stronger after the crown broke, showing that the crown were shackles on his combat power. While the crown was intact, Satan was confident he was gonna beat Jin, to the point of making fun of him by calling him a monkey. When the crown broke, he literally was crying in fear of him, and called him the Supreme God and complained that he could never beat him. Not necessarily calling you one, but tbh only an idiot would imply that the Crown wasn't a limiter on his power.

that was pure speed on joa's part. She sees it, and tries to intercept it, while acacia tries to devour it using neo like he did to most of the attacks before that.

If it was pure speed then it's a contradicted. It tagged Acacia who is faster than Joa so it makes no sense for Joa to be able to dodge it.

these are the planets, not a part of our solar system

There is zero proof that those planets were of a different solar system. You completely made that up.

also by that logic, we don't see jin crossing a single planet when he reaches king, it takes 3 panels for him to even leave the one he is on. So he can't blitz midora if he doesn't accelerate for a while anyway.

Not what I said but ok.

1. after it appeared above mars, han reacted to it when it is travelling interplanetary distance (even earth's atmosphere itself is hundreds of km wide), while joa reacts to it in the timespan it covers a few meter.

Jupiter was moving faster than the laser so it doesn't matter. These two factors cancel out.

2. Jin is faster than han, but han has kept up with about everybody in the series. Joa caught midora off guard, and he couldn't even perceive getting killed 8 times in 0.01 seconds.

Jin isn't just faster than Han. He' blitzed Phase 3 Satan in base, when base Satan was keeping up with Han while toying with him.

Not any more than you can prove jin reach inter-star level speed without accelerating for a few sec - reaching king doesn't slow down at the last second, making his flight speed mftl but reflexes not even ftl. and making the blitz impossible, since he doesn't start at that speed.

Red Herring Fallacy.

Everyone is mixing up "base" jin on this thread I think. So you agree that he will start in god mode, but will still need to activate things like speed mode, and limiter release, right?

Yeah I thought you and the other guy were talking about Jin starting the fight in just strictly base which is why I was so confused at how unfair you were being because Jin always starts fights in God mode.

let me explain how statements work. You read them completely,

Oh is that so? This is a tactic I picked up from @marc_55

and understand the meaning. If you only take half at a time like you did above, they don't make much sense, so you will fail to understand what they were conveying.

Nah, I can understand what you're saying just fine.

"when did jin maintain more than three clones"

And you when know when he's done this if you ever read GoH, which I'm not entirely convinced you have.

and "when did jin maintain more than three clones who have the feats to be stronger than midora"

Again, Jin himself is physically stronger than Midora, and his close can use 100% of his power when they're relatively near him.

are two different questions.

Two both equally ignorant questions, that I've answered twice now.

I didn't ask you the first, I asked you the second. You got the first, because you cut my sentence in half. Hopefully you are able to understand this.

I understood it just fine. It's not my understanding that needs work; it's yours.

Now, you said jin will make a lot of clones - When has jin simultaneously maintained more than 3 clones, who individually have better feats than midora? I don't see why you say his fodder clones can take midora's intimidation.

Anytime Jin makes more than three clones, all of them automatically have better strength feats than Midora, because all of them automatically and simultaneously have the same stats as him. So none of them will go down to intimidation.

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#196 Edited by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio

@kaiocool: It'd be within your best interests not to tag me after this.

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#197 Posted by Darthjhawk (5192 posts) - - Show Bio

I really have to start reading GOH and Toriko. These debates are so intense.

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#198 Posted by Marc_55 (5858 posts) - - Show Bio
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#199 Posted by HigherPower (11984 posts) - - Show Bio
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#200 Posted by Marc_55 (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

You must, since I'm tagged with you throwing shots. So what do you want?