VS
Round 1: Jigen V2 Karma VS Indra Susanoo Sasuke and Ashura Avatar Naruto
Round 2: Same with R1 But Jigen won't break up and Naruto and Sasuke can spam their Strongest Justu's
Round 3' Same with R2 But this time its Isshiki Otsutsuki
Jigen VS Indra Susanoo Sasuke and Kurama Avatar Naruto
The Naruto databook ITSELF confirms Kaguya to be able to destroy Universes!
Don't believe me, here's PROOF!
It is listed as a Kekkei Mōra, Ninjutsu. It says that she used the Divine Tree to absorb Chakra from all of the Shinobi and create a maximized (極大化) Truthseeker Orb. The equivalent (同じ物だが, same/identical/similar) black orbs that appear behind Naruto's back when using Six Paths Sage Mode can't be compared to its dimensions. Comprised of all five elements and yin-yang, it had the power to obliterate the Universe and return it to nothing. ↑ Caption: Comprised of all Chakra natures, a vast, expanding mass is filled to the brim. Created to reshape the Universe, it was a huge mass of chaos.
And I know what people are going to say..... The red highlighted part in the Picture says Sekai which can mean WORLD TOO! Therefore Kaguya is only Planet Level WANKER!
But here's the thing, even if we lowball Kaguya's Dimensions they're at least Solar System in Size due to having Stars in each of them, NOT JUST ONE OF THEM!
But here's the thing, Solar System in Japanese is
Taiyōkei NOT SEKAI! So if MULTIPLE DIMENSIONS have STARS IN THEM, and it says SEKAI IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE UNIVERSE! Because SAYING WORLD WOULD MAKE NO SENSE DUE TO THEM HAVING STARS! So the ETSB can OBLITERATE AND RESHAPE THE UNIVERSE! Kaguya is MULTIVERSAL CONFIRMED! If you ignore the LITERAL AUTHOR'S WORDS (4th Databook was written by Kishimoto ) then YOU ARE BEING A BIASED IGNORANT HATER! Kaguya is Multiversal! DEAL WITH IT! Isshiki is not even on the same playing field as Post-Fruit Kaguya
@gogito: He can but the duo can charge up more nature with Naruto during time period or prep more attacks when he returns. It's possible that he can avoid them but they're attacks DC from the explosions is sure to make Jigen get caught up in it and TB Susanoo would be faster than Adult Sasuke's PS. Except having more is the entire basis on why people say that the adult duo is faster and here Naruto would have a boost that's greater than 50% Kurama he got as a adult since the Ashura avatar boost is equal to that same 50% Kurama + the 8 other bijuus, so saying that these forms won't be faster because they are more powerful would also apply to the adult duos (also we know the bijuus chakra increases stats for instance look at jinchurikis in bijuu forms vs their base forms and the same is true for nature energy boosting a persons stats as seen with curse mark and sage mode). If people agree that Adult Naruto is significantly faster with another half of kurama then he should at bare minimum be even faster with a boost that is even greater than 50% Kurama, so he should be significantly faster with ashura avatar form then his adult kurama avatar form. He might be able to avoid all of their attacks but in round 1 it won't be forever since he has a time limit and this duo would have way more chakra and energy + stronger defenses so they could outlast him. He could teleport but by time he's gone the duo in round 2 and even round 1 can recharge (assuming they are out of their attacks range to not get blown out of their avatars by their own jutsu since now they aren't aiming at each other).
One of them can stall while the other is charging up, and both their defenses are far stronger in this form (including Naruto who has TSB's defense here) so I doubt he'd break through. Naruto's avatar is far stronger here than it was in the Jigen fight so a head but is not breaking it and even assuming he can pierce through Naruto still has his TSB defense inside to vape Jigen on contact.
It's still possible especially in round 1 where he still has a time limit. That could be true but in round 1 he'll eventually go down to less than 10% even assuming he dodges all their attacks. I disagree, if he saw the need to use rods to block a regular sword from Sasuke then he sure as hell isn't block a TB susanoo sword or a majestic attire sword from the duo, furthermore he wouldn't even need to dodge Sasuke's PS sword if he could have tanked it. That majestic attire susanoo would again be just equal to a 100% avatar from either duo since both of the duo were at 50% or less in the fight and both are equal, and Momo didn't get hit directly he was in the head of golem and his golem was sliced in half from waist, the shockwave from that swing stunned Momo (pretty much KO'ed or unable to fight before those guys powered him up) even though Momo was in the golems head and not in the waist, Momo thought it was best to avoid shurikens and kunais and sword strikes from Sasuke and boruto so I doubt someone with durability to tank a susanoo swing would need to do this, also Jigen doesn't really have durability feats at all so his durability could be lower then there's while his power is above Momo and the adult duos (Jigen is just a incomplete vessel afterall). Fair enough but their DC will eventually catch him and in round 1 they would outlast him to where he goes to 10% at which point the duo wins.
I honestly can't since his avatar is equal to 50% kurama + the other bijuus and nature energy is shown significantly increase durability (like sage mode Naruto who can tank falling onto spikes and other stuff that'd kill him except here he has the entire planet's nature energy at his disposal amping him and his avatar to a far greater degree). Unless Jigen has six paths power or sage power (which he doesn't) then he's not breaking the TSB's, saying he's strong and negs them is like me saying Kaguya is strong so she would ignore kamui hax and neg Obito/ DMS Kakashi's kamui intangibility even though we see what happens to her against kamui intangibility despite her strength and speed and hax(raw strength doesn't always overcome hax in Naruto). Kind of doubt he'll pin down the avatar especially when it's much stronger than the avatar he faced before and the avatars can also stay airborne if they want to avoid getting pinned to the ground and they can fuse while airborne if needed. Even if he can spam endless rods (tho the OP states he's only not going to break a part here, which only takes away his time limit and crumbling body but leaves him the same as round 1) the team can spam their jutsus around Jigen and he'll end up getting caught in one of the blasts sooner or later while his rods would get blown away or vaporized from the explosions (considering Naruto in chapter 37 neutralized Jigen's rods with a Odama rasengan), if he jumps to another dimension then the duo can charge up with more nature energy or even more chakra and jutsus until he comes back. I doubt only one of them would be left since this duo has way more energy/ stamina / chakra and should have better stats in their avatar forms. He did have killer intent tho, in chapter 39 he said it was "the end their rope" (implying it's the end of their life) when the duo were down before he cracked his vessel and when he going to seal Naruto due to it requiring to much effort to kill him he said he was going to kill Sasuke (even though he was weakened here), even in V1 Karma he said the one he should "eliminate" first is Sasuke, confirming his killer intent towards the duo in the fight.
Eliminate would mean to get rid of or kill if he wanted to KO them then he would used different wording but all evidence points to him having killer intent in the fight. So the duo did fight a killer intent Jigen.
Agreed it would definitely be really powerful. IMO I see the duo in these forms pressuring him back and then fusing in mid air (since Naruto and Sasuke both fused with their clones + nature energy and the bijuus (their chakra) respectively in mid air). I don't see it rods really working affectively against a avatar this strong especially in mid air, but even then Naruto could use his rasengans and TBB like he did in chapter 37 to counter the rods again.
Against Madara it was different since against 1 eyed Madara it was just them battling and not avatars since the duo were getting the edge in the fight and just needed to touch him to win (using susanoo and avatars would be pointless, especailly due to immortality and convinently having one shot seals that would work). Against 2 eyed Madara the Sasuke was forced to catch up to Madara with PS flight while Naruto had to stay on the ground to deal with the cut up meteors and limbos so they couldn't do it here, against 3 eyed both were cornered and trapped and Madara was later transformed so neither could use it in that situation. Against Kaguya Sasuke's PS was always getting one shot and the duo were being separated and even Naruto's chakra arms were useless against Kaguya and again they didn't need to kill Kaguya (not that they even had the means to kill her since she's immortal) they just needed to 1 touch and seal her like Madara. Against Jigen I'm not really sure why they didn't try, probably cause of their confidence at the start of the battle combined with some plot nerfing them somewhat in the fight. Against Momo and Juubito they still fused and in this fight they start off with their avatars so I see no reason why they wouldn't fuse here given the chance and who knows maybe they'll fuse avatars in the new chapter. Together Kaguya and Madara would definitely be above Isshiki, individually Kaguya would IMO definitely be above Isshiki, however Madara and Isshiki should be closer IMO powerwise (Isshiki physcially stronger while Madara has more chakra and should have more DC) but I would say Madara due to all his haxes and versatility would win in a good fight, but my opinion may change in the upcoming chapters about both Kaguya and Madara (tho hax wise I'd still give it to them unless Isshiki uses some more OP hax). I don't think they didn't fuse because they were stronger if that's what you mean, it's because in both those fights they needed seals to win since both opponents were immortal and they already have one shot seals which they lack here in these forms, for instance look at Obito and Momoshiki fight they were still fusing against strong opponents in those fights. He might just be able to damage them but I think they'd fuse before that happens, especially in mid air and they should have the means to defend against attacks from Jigen. Agreed, I think Jigen can have a chance at winning round 2 if he's able to play really smart but IMO I see the duo coming out on top more times than not.
Agreed, if they do that right off the bat they'd waste a lot of chakra (even assuming they stay out of range of the blast and don't get blown out their avatars severely injured). However the duo is smart and Sasuke's always been analytical and tends to analyze a persons abilities before trying to attack a opponent, same with Naruto to a degree so I doubt they'd carelessly use their strongest jutsus with all their chakra right off the bat, but if they do then yeah they'd probably exhaust their chakra and give Isshiki the win unless they somehow still have power left in their avatars after that attack (assuming they aren't caught in the blast) and manage to outlast him.
@cyberblades22: What I mean by that is Jigen Teleporting behind them at the nick of time before their Jutsu's hit him. Leaving them no time to recharge their Attacks again, Especially when Jigen is at very close range with their Avatars. And then pierce's through one of their Avatars. I still fail to see how Jigen won't be able to pierce through Ashura avatar.
Look how casually Jigen penetrated through Kurama's Defense. and Headbutting Naruto out of his Avatar. I don't see why Jigen not doing this straight after they attack their Jutsu's (from behind). What is TSB gonna do Jigen. Guy literally broke TSB, And Jigen>>>> Guy in every states by a landslide. Did Guy get vaped? nope. A weaker version on Sasuke's human Susanoo arrow negged Naruto's TSB. Jigen will do it much easier than any of these. So yeah.
Not even Perfect Susanoo Sasuke couldn't do such thing on a weaker Kurama who had half power (Not Ashura Avatar) and Kirin didn't even penetrate it nor damaged one bit. Jigen's Rods where easily able to penetrate full kurama avatar zero diff. Blocking Sasuke's sword who was able to go toe to toe with Kinshiki who is a planet splitter, It should be an impressive feat for Jigen at the very least. Also again, Jigen's rods easily piercing a Full Kurama avatar is a very impressive feat. I don't think the Ashura avatar is FAR Stronger than a full kurama avatar.
And again, by saying Teleporting, I mean going behind them when they charge their strongest attacks, Not like going to another dimension and staying their for a while and then come back, no I don't mean that. That way they won't have time Charging their Ninjutsu and Big Attacks anymore. Especially since Jigen will rapidly keep on hitting the Susanoo and Kurama with Full force till it breaks. With one hit, he was able to break PS's defense and Kurama avatar defense. Ok, I agree Jigen won't be able to break it with one hit, But simultaneous hits will surely break it. The Avatars attack speed are still too slow to touch Jigen. A sword slice from a TB Susanoo won't hit Jigen at all in the first place, Judging by how easily he dodged 2 Strikes from Adult Sasuke's PS, and then mocking its speed (Attack speed to be exact). Your saying the DC from their attacks will damage Jigen. but the truth is, Jigen won't even be near those Destructions, Especially when he teleports behind them Straight away when they launch their attacks. then they will have to charge their attacks again which Jigen won't even let them do. Then they have no chance of touching Jigen with the Avatars attack speed, In Which Jigen will keep Damaging it simultaneously till it breaks (And surely it will break, especially if Jigen hits it with many kicks and punches). Their AOE attacks are Long range and Jigen isn't an Idiot unlike nearly all the Otsutsuki's. He won't stay far away from the Avatars and let them Shoot their Powerful Bombs. I mean he could, by tricking them at the last second when he Teleports behind them when they shoot their AOE attacks. That would be a waste of Chakra. Jigen would straight up Charge at the Avatars and easily Avoid the AOE attacks by teleporting. And it takes some time to charge their AOE Attack after they just launched, Which Jigen won't even allow.
If they fuse then yeah, thats a different story. Although there is a way Jigen can prevent that from happening. He can keep the Duo busy in Fighting Close range, And he can break either Avatar from attacking it Simultaneously. Causing them not to fuse. Jigen can also directly spam Rods from Naruto and Sasuke's body as well. leaving them Paralyzed. We've seen him do that as well. We've seen him do that as well. unless I'm missing something.
Yes Indeed the Ashura Avatar would be stronger than Adult Naruto's Full Kurama Avatar In Strength and Durability. But the gap isn't as large as people think it is. It's not like Ashura Avatar can Solo the Adult Duo. Jigen may not be able to break it with One hit like how he did with Full Kurama Avatar, But he surely can with Multiple hits.
Yeah he did say Eliminate. But Kurama later confirms that Jigen was not trying to kill Naruto at all. And Jigen even remarks this by saying the your other half is smarter than you.
Honestly I don't see the Duo winning. Their Attack speed is still too slow for them to hit Jigen. Jigen won't let them charge their Attacks at all since he will be fighting close range and their AOE Attacks are mostly long range. Jigen will be able to break either Avatar by attacking it Simultaneously with Punches and Kicks. He can Spam rods as well. TSB won't face Jigen since it got negged by regular Arrows from human form Susanoo. Jigen can sure as well negg it as well. The only way for the Duo to win is by fusing. Although it's still kinda arguable whether Jigen would let them since they would be so busy fighting him. If they do fuse, then yea.. I kinda do see the duo winning. Other than that, Jigen would most likely win. Good time discussing with ya mate.
@gogito: Yes but that depends on if he can teleport back before they charge up their attacks again, and again one of them can launch it while the other waits with their attack in reserve for when Jigen comes back, then at that moment the other can charge their attack while the other launches their attack. Still don't see him piercing a avatar that is stronger than the one Naruto used by 8.5 bijuus (since it's equal to TB avatar) and again he has a TSB shield inside the avatar.
It's because their avatars are stronger in the VOTE and it's debatable if Jigen has more power than Naruto's avatar with a additional power boost of 8.5 bijuus and his TSB shield is still there and the duo can still fuse avatars in the sky for even more defense. It's going to disintegrate him upon contact unless he has six paths chakra or senjutsu chakra shielding his body (which he doesn't). You might want to read that panel again since Guy didn't touch the TSB's since Kakashi kamui'd a whole in them, he punched Madara against his own shield and Madara can touch the TSB's and thus with the force Madara (a user of six paths senjutsu in his entire body that can touch TSB) was being pushed against TSB caused it to shatter and break. Minato wouldn't have warned everyone about touching TSB's and being disintegrated by them and wouldn't have had everyone teleport TSB's and made a hole in Madara's shield if Guy could just touch them (Madara was surprised that Naruto a user of senjutsu (didn't know about him having six paths power at the time) could even touch them which wouldn't make sense if Guy could touch them without being harmed since he only used taijutsu and no ninjutsu or senjutsu). So if Jigen punches Naruto against the TSB's like Guy then he might break them (debatable if his raw physical strength surpassed Guy's, since Guy pasted Madara's right half of his body with a kick and his air force from his punch sent Madara like 10,000 ft into the ground), but this would make no sense since Kakashi isn't here to kamui a opening and Naruto wouldn't put the TSB's behind him if he wants to defend from a attack from his front. If Guy had touched TSB's then he would have disintegrated, Madara and Minato both made that clear, Guy never touched the TSB's once in that entire fight, he only punched Madara and smashed him through the TSB shield when a opening was made.
Perfect Susanoo and Kurama Avatar should be far more durable then Jigen from feats (Jigen has almost 0 durability feats, also this Ashura avatar and TB susanoo which is massively stronger then the regular avatars). Agreed they have really powerful piercing durability. The Kinshiki being a planet splitter statement is only applies to the Boruto movie, not the anime since that's movie databook and the movie is now retconned by the anime and manga which portrays Kinshiki as weaker then his movie self (as shown against his fight with Sasuke and the kages). What I'm saying is that TB susanoo sword would be >>>>>> Sasuke's regular sword swing if Jigen actually needed to block it from Sasuke with rods and also saw the need to dodge a perfect susanoo swing in v2 karma form. It's definitely impressive, but not good enough to block a TB susanoo sword swing imo. Agreed it's really impressive. I mean his ashura avatar equals a TB susanoo with Yang Kurama (same half Naruto got) + the 8 other bijuus, that too me looks like a huge gap in power since this Naruto would approximately have power equal to that same yang half he later got + the 8 other bijuus, and while adult Naruto did train I doubt it was to the extent of gaining more power than 8 other bijuus (he also lost some chakra in the fight before hand and every time him or his avatar was stabbed by Jigen's chakra draining rods).
Oh alright that makes sense, I mistakenly interpreted your point as being teleporting into another dimension and staying there then going out of the dimension after a while (my bad here). He can do that but one of the duo should be able to pressure him back for a few seconds until the other charges up their jutsu and I think their avatars should be able to tank a few of his hits as well. One of the duo can pressure him back from repeatedly hitting one of them for a while and the avatars should still able to fly and avoid at least some of hits while charging up. Agreed multiple hits would probably break their avatars. Fair point, but TB susanoo should be faster and he also has ashura avatar Naruto for help here. Fair point, but one of them can charge their attacks while the other keeps it in reserve for when he teleports and I can see the duo fusing avatars in round 2 pretty fast. Fair point again but if it comes to this then the team can fuse avatars if they feel pressured in close for round 2 (I agree that Jigen body Isshiki is definitely smarter then the other Otsutsuki's (at least all the pure blood Otsutsuki's)). The duo can sharge one at a time and can constantly fly to maintain their distance from Jigen in round 2, and if they see their attacks failing then they would fuse against him, and even if Jigen at this point still avoids all attacks he shouldn't be able to pierce a defense this strong and duo with that much energy would easily outlast him if it comes to a battle of attrition. This is also one of the reasons I say extreme diff since you could make a argument for Jigen in round 2 since he won't break apart from excess fighting.
Agreed. The duo would be in close range and would fly and they seem to fuse pretty quickly so one of them can keep busy while the other fuses or they could launch small jutsu with barely any chakra like amaterasu or use a clone (or Kurama clone to buy time like they did in canon but this time with a kurama clone) then take that opportunity to fuse together. Jigen doesn't actually spam rods from peoples body like make them randomly appear in people, he makes the rods microscopic in size and pierces an opponent with them and due to the size a person doesn't even notice that they have been stabbed, then he restores the rods to their original size instantly which causes more damage to a person since the rods expand to their normal size making the tiny minuscule wound bigger. This is explained by Sasuke who notices this with his sharingan seeing the tiny rods growing since his eyes can see microscopic sized things.
So in other words Jigen must stab his opponent with the rods before he can make them grow inside them and damage the (his shrinking just makes it seem like they randomly appear inside of people but in truth they were placed there by him before and were restored in size making it seem like the illusion of him making rods appear in people randomly and instantly).This wouldn't work here since the duo are in the safety of their avatars covering them from all sides and Sasuke would again notice with his sharingan here and Naruto would be able to sense them here too pretty fast. The rods additionally don't completely paralyze them but only makes it harder for the targets to move but the targets can still move with the rods in them as seen with Naruto and Sasuke but again they are in the safety of their avatars so they won't need to face that problem unless they leave their avatar, which would be difficult for Jigen to do especially if they fuse.
Agreed. The Ashura avatar is really powerful since Naruto's Ashura avatar = yang kurama + 8 other bijuu in Sasuke's susanoo, I don't think it would solo the adult duo (unless for some reason the combined might of the duo is weaker than teen Sasuke + all the bijuu in his susanoo which I heavily doubt is the case) but it would definitely be stronger then either of the adult duos avatars. Agreed he should be able to break with multiple hits, but I don't think the duo would let him continue to spam attacks (punches, kicks, and headbutts) on their avatars.
That's true but that was after his vessel cracked and after the fight pretty much ended, and he stated it would take too much work to kill Naruto (probably due to his vessel cracking and him being at like 10% at that time and Naruto being hard to kill due to the 9 tails), right before his vessel cracked he stated that it was the end of their rope for the duo (and even before that said he'd eliminate them as well).
So Jigen was using killing intent and was going to kill the duo before his vessel cracked, but after it cracked he only had the means to kill Sasuke due to him having dimension hopping to escape while Naruto with the 9 tails is really difficult for him to kill as stated by him.
In round 2 I say they win with extreme diff only due to them having attacks that they can spam and the fact that they can fuse and should be able to outlast his chakra reserves even if the match became a match of attrition (round 1 I give to the duo due to having way more chakra or nature energy to outlast him before he cracks his vessel). Round 2 could be given to Jigen if the duo don't play it smart or make any big mistakes in battle, but I see the duo playing it smart and probably going for the fusion pretty early on which is why I say they can pull a win extreme diff, but otherwise Jigen could win for the reasons mentioned but IMO the duo still have a chance on winning for the reasons I mentioned above. He can but he needs to constantly attack one spot of their avatars but I see the duo keeping their distance and helping each other out before this happens. I don't really see him throwing rods piercing their avatars IMO since their avatars are way stronger here. Susanoo arrows had six paths chakra and still returned back to Naruto later, Jigen doesn't have six paths chakra or senjutsu here to counter them (if he did then yeah he'd counter them but Naruto could use them defensively as well instead of throwing them). Jigen without six paths chakra or senjutsu attacks can't counter the arrows. Honestly I can see him letting them fuse since he mocked their avatars in the fight against the adult duo and let them activate and use their avatars first before attacking them, so in character I can see him doing the same thing and the duo would probably notice him having horn like a Otsutsuki and his power and would take the chance to fuse at the start similar to how they did against Momo. Kind of agree with you here as well, if they are split apart and not fused then Jigen actually has a good shot at winning with portal hax tho I can still see the duo pulling off some wins with strategy and spamming (I honestly don't know who would win a majority of times in the match if the duo stay split apart with avatars but Jigen does have a really good chance of winning, but you could be right in Jigen winning a majority here). Agreed. You too, it's been fun discussing this, have a good one mate.
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