It depends. The black bulls team obviously has a speed advantage.
While Jigen can one shot everyone in the team including Yami cause their durability is fodder.
If Jigen starts with shrinking then the black bulls really have no ways of beating Jigen(not that I can think off) because Asta and Yami (the strongest) use slashes(swords) which won't hit someone who is so small that he can't be seen. They could sense where he is but that is not enough to get a hit.
So if the team starts with a blitz before Jigen shrinks then the team wins (currently, we don't know Jigen's full capabilities). But if Jigen shrinks and stays in that form, he can take the team down, but he has to be extremely careful in doing so cause the team has a speed advantage.
Jigen literally plays with them. And this time people cant use the "lol BC team blitzes" cause by this time, god tiers in Naruto have already surpassed FTL.
The only problem is vanessa but she shouldnt be too much of a problem.
Copy and pasted from another thread from @ManimalMan:
"Rouge won't be any help,it takes ton of energy to maintain and doesnt last infinitely. Dante was able to exhaust all of of vanessa stamina at once and stop the spell just by stepping on Asta really hard"
"man just needed to use 60% of his power and poof.
"
If something like that will have vanessa out of magic, a punch or anything from jigen will leave her magicless like asta lol
Forget Jigen. Fused momoshiki or toneri would wash these guys. Theres already a thread where even ten tails is standing a chance against them.
And here you are putting the strongest guy in the verse against them
Black bulls and id say the entire verse is a couple million years to early to be fighting someone like jigen or even fused momo. People need to stop making mismatch BC threads 🤦♂️. Im startin to look like a hater
Jigen literally plays with them. And this time people cant use the "lol BC team blitzes" cause by this time, god tiers in Naruto have already surpassed FTL.
The only problem is vanessa but she shouldnt be too much of a problem.
Copy and pasted from another thread from @ManimalMan:
"Rouge won't be any help,it takes ton of energy to maintain and doesnt last infinitely. Dante was able to exhaust all of of vanessa stamina at once and stop the spell just by stepping on Asta really hard"
"man just needed to use 60% of his power and poof.
"
If something like that will have vanessa out of magic, a punch or anything from jigen will leave her magicless like asta lol
Forget Jigen. Fused momoshiki or toneri would wash these guys. Theres already a thread where even ten tails is standing a chance against them.
And here you are putting the strongest guy in the verse against them
This can't happen with charmy present, Charmy grants the team basically infinite magic. Lol. You guys are reaching,come up with a better valid counter,till then black bulls team still stomps
Jigen literally plays with them. And this time people cant use the "lol BC team blitzes" cause by this time, god tiers in Naruto have already surpassed FTL.
The only problem is vanessa but she shouldnt be too much of a problem.
Copy and pasted from another thread from @ManimalMan:
"Rouge won't be any help,it takes ton of energy to maintain and doesnt last infinitely. Dante was able to exhaust all of of vanessa stamina at once and stop the spell just by stepping on Asta really hard"
"man just needed to use 60% of his power and poof.
"
If something like that will have vanessa out of magic, a punch or anything from jigen will leave her magicless like asta lol
Forget Jigen. Fused momoshiki or toneri would wash these guys. Theres already a thread where even ten tails is standing a chance against them.
And here you are putting the strongest guy in the verse against them
This can't happen with charmy present, Charmy grants the team basically infinite magic. Lol. You guys are reaching,come up with a better valid counter,till then black bulls team still stomps
Iirc, Charmy needs ingredients to make her magic restoring food and its not like they would even have time to cook and eat.
@saxz: Okay? Kill charmy than. Plus With the speed jigen should have over them, i dont know why he doesnt kill all of them. Especially when he can manipulate surroundings. Plus when you show me a scan of charmy restoring magic at instantaneous speeds than we can talk cause till then, they get blitzed while there getting there magic restored. If charmy even makes it that far.
black bulls wouldnt even beat high tiers in bleach. Hell id argue some OP hax people can win and you think BB stomps god tiers in Naruto? Not even a god tier but the stringest guy in the verse currently? Well you can say what you want. Facts sadly smack you across the lips.
Ive seen you before and never thought to call you a wanker but nah. Saying BB >>> Jigen or any god tier in naruto is massive famboyism
@namebk: No one here is blitzing tho. Matter of fact, by scaling, Jigen should blitz the black bulls.
Again, lesser god tiers like even fused momoahiki and kaguya would solo the verse. Let alone the strongest guy in the verse.
Ontop of thay hax can only get you so far and the hax BB has is garbage. Its not even anything good. Even yamis dimensional slash which ignores durability has been survived before. Vanessas fate manip magic gets reduced by a simple hard step. Even julius time hax isnt too great. I dont understand the logic of BC fanboys/girls.
I feel like you guys see a hax ability and think "yep. there soloing verses"
and because BC got "lightspeed early" now vetto arc asta and up >>>>>>>>> every single HST character in speed apparently. This is exactly why i hate BC threads. Its full of pure wank. Even jojo which is one of the kings of hax arent being put to this level.
The latest chapter of black clover proves that except the very top tiers of the verse, no one is even close to lightspeed or FTL.
Luck used a true lightning technique which made him go the fastest he has ever gone and he completely blitz stomped his demon powered enemy. The thing here is, true lightning technique is literally real lightning (as stated) hence it is lightning speed. Meaning, this is the first time luck has ever gone as fast as lightning and his demon powered opponent couldn't even react. Hence everyone who luck scales to, comes down to less than lightning speed in the BC verse.
So forget jigen, anyone on the level of war arc KCM Naruto can blitz stomps the majority of the black bulls.
The latest chapter of black clover proves that except the very top tiers of the verse, no one is even close to lightspeed or FTL.
Luck used a true lightning technique which made him go the fastest he has ever gone and he completely blitz stomped his demon powered enemy. The thing here is, true lightning technique is literally real lightning (as stated) hence it is lightning speed. Meaning, this is the first time luck has ever gone as fast as lightning and his demon powered opponent couldn't even react. Hence everyone who luck scales to, comes down to less than lightning speed in the BC verse.
So forget jigen, anyone on the level of war arc KCM Naruto can blitz stomps the majority of the black bulls.
Jigen literally plays with them. And this time people cant use the "lol BC team blitzes" cause by this time, god tiers in Naruto have already surpassed FTL.
The only problem is vanessa but she shouldnt be too much of a problem.
Copy and pasted from another thread from @ManimalMan:
"Rouge won't be any help,it takes ton of energy to maintain and doesnt last infinitely. Dante was able to exhaust all of of vanessa stamina at once and stop the spell just by stepping on Asta really hard"
"man just needed to use 60% of his power and poof.
"
If something like that will have vanessa out of magic, a punch or anything from jigen will leave her magicless like asta lol
Forget Jigen. Fused momoshiki or toneri would wash these guys. Theres already a thread where even ten tails is standing a chance against them.
And here you are putting the strongest guy in the verse against them
This can't happen with charmy present, Charmy grants the team basically infinite magic. Lol. You guys are reaching,come up with a better valid counter,till then black bulls team still stomps
Iirc, Charmy needs ingredients to make her magic restoring food and its not like they would even have time to cook and eat.
Very specific events occurred before Dante could pull this off. Jigen wouldn't be able to replicate that. Rogue wasn't present when the initial attack hit Asta, so it was left reviving Asta over and over again to protect him from the Gravity stomp. If Rogue was there the attack wouldn't hit in the first place.
Charmy's magic sheep cooking takes all but 10 seconds
On topic: black bulls win, Jigen can't beat someone who rewrites fate izanagi style without limits, backed up by two people as fast as naruto and sasuke with better hax.
With verse equalization rule in place ninjutsu would be magic, asta is pretty much immunein dark form, and yami is kakashi with a kamui sword that shoots portals in form of getsuga tenshou, luck is basically a lightspeed raikage (scales to asta in speed), all these put together plus ki (sagemode sensory ability) are why jigen loses.
And this can't happen with rogue there, see the circle.
Plus With the speed jigen should have over them, i dont know why he doesnt kill all of them. Especially when he can manipulate surroundings. Plus when you show me a scan of charmy restoring magic at instantaneous speeds than we can talk cause till then, they get blitzed while there getting there magic restored. If charmy even makes it that far.
You lost me at they get blitzed.
black bulls wouldnt even beat high tiers in bleach. Hell id argue some OP hax people can win and you think BB stomps god tiers in Naruto? Not even a god tier but the stringest guy in the verse currently? Well you can say what you want. Facts sadly smack you across the lips.
Oh I do believe a lot of hax people in the HST wins,even Trafalgar Law could make a compelling argument. just not Jigen,He doesnt have what it takes,he is one step away from being an utter brick, a brick who is currently behind on some stats when it comes to this team. Maybe as Isshiki he will likely get more feats but for now Nada.
Ive seen you before and never thought to call you a wanker
Of course you've seen me before, we go way back. I must say you've improved on being obvious since our last chat. Thumbs up. On topic: But the one saying Jigen blitz FTL characters without any feats shouldn't be calling others wankers.
but nah. Saying BB >>> Jigen or any god tier in naruto is massive famboyism
When you bring actual counters to what Jigen does here than duh Jigen >>>HST ,then we can talk.
The latest chapter of black clover proves that except the very top tiers of the verse, no one is even close to lightspeed or FTL.
Luck used a true lightning technique which made him go the fastest he has ever gone and he completely blitz stomped his demon powered enemy. The thing here is, true lightning technique is literally real lightning (as stated) hence it is lightning speed. Meaning, this is the first time luck has ever gone as fast as lightning and his demon powered opponent couldn't even react. Hence everyone who luck scales to, comes down to less than lightning speed in the BC verse.
So forget jigen, anyone on the level of war arc KCM Naruto can blitz stomps the majority of the black bulls.
@bold is completely and utterly your opinion. Except Luck was stated to be moving at lightning speed, there's no way it overwrites what the author gave as the canon speed , when he said on panel that light magic = light speed several times, and have people react to that magic in the very next panel. What if Luck's true Lightning was enhancing his base speed.
Honestly This is like saying Sasuke should be lightning speed because chidori increases his speed.
@saxz: Okay get rid of rogue then. A foot > rogue. So just the yawn of a god tier in Naruto >>>>>> rogue.
Oh okay. Ill say it again. BB gets blitzed. No one in BC is faster than the boruto or Naruto god tiers.
Being a brick as strong as jigen >>>>>>> garbage hax like BB. Hax can only get you but so far and sadly it doesnt get them psst jigen.
I mean we dont go way back but i guess. Ive only been in two threads with you. *sigh* Unless of course. Your talking about this oreo6 boner you continue to have.
Jigen scales to kaguya and teen Naruto who are all FTL. Matter of fact. Even KCM Naruto was FTL for dodging raikage. And author states raikage approaches lightspeed.
Says the guy who just "assumes" BC characters are faster than Naruto god tiers with no argument.
Jigen literally plays with them. And this time people cant use the "lol BC team blitzes" cause by this time, god tiers in Naruto have already surpassed FTL.
The only problem is vanessa but she shouldnt be too much of a problem.
Copy and pasted from another thread from @ManimalMan:
"Rouge won't be any help,it takes ton of energy to maintain and doesnt last infinitely. Dante was able to exhaust all of of vanessa stamina at once and stop the spell just by stepping on Asta really hard"
"man just needed to use 60% of his power and poof.
"
If something like that will have vanessa out of magic, a punch or anything from jigen will leave her magicless like asta lol
Forget Jigen. Fused momoshiki or toneri would wash these guys. Theres already a thread where even ten tails is standing a chance against them.
And here you are putting the strongest guy in the verse against them
This can't happen with charmy present, Charmy grants the team basically infinite magic. Lol. You guys are reaching,come up with a better valid counter,till then black bulls team still stomps
Iirc, Charmy needs ingredients to make her magic restoring food and its not like they would even have time to cook and eat.
Very specific events occurred before Dante could pull this off. Jigen wouldn't be able to replicate that. Rogue wasn't present when the initial attack hit Asta, so it was left reviving Asta over and over again to protect him from the Gravity stomp. If Rogue was there the attack wouldn't hit in the first place.
Charmy's magic sheep cooking takes all but 10 seconds
And if rogue perches on Jigen he does nothing
The events leading up to it weren't some special 1-in-a-million occurrence. Dante was fighting Asta(who protected by rouge), then went to harass Vanessa(who summoned rouge back), then went to continue his fight with Asta(who wasn't protected), when rouge goes to help Asta Dante simply overpowers it.
The sequence just highlights 2 major weaknesses of the spell. Its limited range and its reliance on Vanessa's stamina. He should be able to exploit those weaknesses since he can quickly switch between targets with his teleportation and shrinking, has attacks that are difficult to anticipate, and has a shitload of raw power.
I don't remember any quantifiable timeframe for her cooking. Regardless they don't have to luxury to just eat a full meal in the middle of a fight.
The perch thing is confusing since against the witch queen and Elf luck it seemed to go to the aggressor to undo the attack but in all its other fights it just stays near the people it's defending. I think it's probably an issue of range. Basically, I don't think it would land on the aggressor if that person is too far from Vanessa. Either that or Tabata just felt like changing how he depicts it 🤷
Either way, it doesn't protect against BFR so Jigen just snatches Vanessa and calls it a day.
@saxz: Okay get rid of rogue then. A foot > rogue. So just the yawn of a god tier in Naruto >>>>>> rogue.
It wasn't about power, read the manga properly. Rouge limits lies in how often it rewrites fate not the power of the attack. Rogue has revived people from way more damage than that. Don't you know what fate manipulation is,in words you understand Rogue abilities are basically izanagi on steroids. Do you think danzou being hit with a planet level AP would stop him from coming back.
Oh okay. Ill say it again. BB gets blitzed. No one in BC is faster than the boruto or Naruto god tiers.
Your opinion doesn't matter. Except you have a FTL feat for Naruto characters that put it above numerous black clover feats. Your claim is baseless.
Being a brick as strong as jigen >>>>>>> garbage hax like BB. Hax can only get you but so far and sadly it doesnt get them psst jigen.
So Jigen still has no counter, good to know.
I mean we dont go way back but i guess. Ive only been in two threads with you. *sigh* Unless of course. Your talking about this oreo6 boner you continue to have.
Lol I leave that to you to decide.
Jigen scales to kaguya and teen Naruto who are all FTL. Matter of fact. Even KCM Naruto was FTL for dodging raikage. And author states raikage approaches lightspeed.
Approaching lightspeed isn't light speed, everyone mentioned above don't have a light speed feat, if they do please post scans.
Says the guy who just "assumes" BC characters are faster than Naruto god tiers with no argument.
This is a no brainer, it's general knowledge at this point. If you want the scans that shows their FTL feats ask for it.
@saxz: Well show me scans if that. I got the rogue thing from another debater. I even said that when i posted the image. So show me scans if it being "because of the limits". Besides thats not the point im leaning towards anyway. Vanessa straight up states on panel that her magic got siphoned off really fast and even she was surprised. That was from the foot. (Unless you have scans to show otherwise) so any attack from a god tier instantly does it.
Being a brick as strong as jigen >>>>>> the garbage hax BC has. BB has no counter to jigen.
Well i left it up to the mods to decide instead.
I never said approaching lighstpeed means lightspeed but of course someone as slow as you would think that.
Raikage approaches lightspeed < KCM dodges mid charge from raikage and even becomes FTE to raikage so already KCM is LS. BM Naruto far surpasses KCM (but of course youll deny this because BC fans) BSM far surpasses KCM since SM grants a 10x. BSM <<<<<<<<< Six paths base <<<<<<<< six paths cloaked mode <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Hokage Naruto and Adult Sasuke <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Jigen since he stomped them both ay full power while not even at full power himself. Meanwhile you havent posted a single shred of evidence that puts anyone in BB in FTL ranges. You just got up and assumed they were. You also havent posted a single reason why BB doesnt get blitzed. So again even KCM Naruto blitzes who was FTL.
Well i thought Naruto god tiers far surpassing FTL was common knowledge but then you came. But i guess that shouldnt count since you know Naruto god tiers overshadow FTL already but your downplaying cause you hate seeing BC get mismatch stomped.
@saxz: and if you disagree with the transformations out of spite like i know you will then imma need proof for asta being stat amplified when in black asta mode.
Jigen literally plays with them. And this time people cant use the "lol BC team blitzes" cause by this time, god tiers in Naruto have already surpassed FTL.
The only problem is vanessa but she shouldnt be too much of a problem.
Copy and pasted from another thread from @ManimalMan:
"Rouge won't be any help,it takes ton of energy to maintain and doesnt last infinitely. Dante was able to exhaust all of of vanessa stamina at once and stop the spell just by stepping on Asta really hard"
"man just needed to use 60% of his power and poof.
"
If something like that will have vanessa out of magic, a punch or anything from jigen will leave her magicless like asta lol
Forget Jigen. Fused momoshiki or toneri would wash these guys. Theres already a thread where even ten tails is standing a chance against them.
And here you are putting the strongest guy in the verse against them
This can't happen with charmy present, Charmy grants the team basically infinite magic. Lol. You guys are reaching,come up with a better valid counter,till then black bulls team still stomps
Iirc, Charmy needs ingredients to make her magic restoring food and its not like they would even have time to cook and eat.
Very specific events occurred before Dante could pull this off. Jigen wouldn't be able to replicate that. Rogue wasn't present when the initial attack hit Asta, so it was left reviving Asta over and over again to protect him from the Gravity stomp. If Rogue was there the attack wouldn't hit in the first place.
Charmy's magic sheep cooking takes all but 10 seconds
And if rogue perches on Jigen he does nothing
The events leading up to it weren't some special 1-in-a-million occurrence. Dante was fighting Asta(who protected by rouge), then went to harass Vanessa(who summoned rouge back), then went to continue his fight with Asta(who wasn't protected), when rouge goes to help Asta Dante simply overpowers it.
The main reason rogue was put under so much stress was because Dante outclassed them totally and was basically killing them over and over again with every move. If Jigen could replicate that,yes he low diffs them, but while he has the AP, he doesn't have the speed advantage and the technique to do that, it's not a guarantee that all his attack will hit like it was with Dante, so less work for Rogue. and there's the fact that Yami and rest of the crew will be present.
The sequence just highlights 2 major weaknesses of the spell. Its limited range and its reliance on Vanessa's stamina.
We knew both this stuff already, the Dante fight wasn't needed to show this. But like I said Jigen is a close range brick,hence he doesn't have the range to press the Black bulls like Dante did.
He should be able to exploit those weaknesses since he can quickly switch between targets with his teleportation and shrinking, has attacks that are difficult to anticipate, and has a shitload of raw power.
Good point. But if the team don't stray far from each other they would be fine and some of them have the speed advantage, however the shrinking and raw power would be a problem, good thing Yami is there, he could potentially pull a gg move when things start to look grim.
I don't remember any quantifiable timeframe for her cooking. Regardless they don't have to luxury to just eat a full meal in the middle of a fight.
They did exactly that on panel. Several times. I only watched anime at this point so forgive me if this is an Anime only scene.
The perch thing is confusing since against the witch queen and Elf luck it seemed to go to the aggressor to undo the attack but in all its other fights it just stays near the people it's defending. I think it's probably an issue of range. Basically, I don't think it would land on the aggressor if that person is too far from Vanessa. Either that or Tabata just felt like changing how he depicts it 🤷
It's likely plot,but that doesn't change the fact that it has the ability to perch on the aggressor and render their attacks useless. I do think it might be a matter of range, Dante was a far range fighter and most of the time attacked several dozen meters away from Vanessa
Either way, it doesn't protect against BFR so Jigen just snatches Vanessa and calls it a day.
This is by far the one valid argument being made here. He could likely do this as Rogue only protect against damage. Knowing Jigen he might actually succeed using a shrinking/teleportation combo move. But then Yami should be faster and has a form of precog so he shouldn't allow this.
My mind was set on black bulls having an easy or mid diff win but I guess it's looking like 50/50
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