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#1 Edited by Gooodguyy (54 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a bracket competition for the Jedi alive in tcw

All Jedi are in their mindsets and primes morals on

Seed 1 yoda vs seed 16 adi gallia

Seed 2 Mace windu vs seed 15 stass Allie

Seed 3 anakin vs seed 14 aayla secura

Seed 4 obi wan vs seed 13 quinlan vos

Seed 5 plo koon vs seed 12 eeth koth

Seed 6 kit fisto vs seed 11 depa billaba

Seed 7 ki adi mundi vs seed 10 saesee tiin

Seed 8 Shaak ti vs seed 9 agen kolar

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5a2b0053414c5 (8165 posts) - - Show Bio

seed?

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#4 Edited by Pirateking (619 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Gooodguyy (54 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by deactivated-5a20a68641bc7 (1969 posts) - - Show Bio

Everyone on the left (i.e. seeds 1-8) wins their round with the possible exception of Ki-Adi-Mundi who could lose to Saesee Tiin.

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#7 Edited by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio

Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi and Shaak Ti lose to their competition. Everyone else on the left side defeats their opponent.

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#8 Posted by Gooodguyy (54 posts) - - Show Bio

@discipulus: then who would continue to progress to the quarters, semis and so on

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#9 Edited by NotSoSlimReaper (43 posts) - - Show Bio

There's not really much discussion to be had here. Yoda cleans house.

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#10 Posted by Cosmic_Templar (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

Everyone on the left wins except Ki Adi. Yoda wins overall against everyone. Mace 2nd place. Obi Wan 3rd place. Anakin 4th place.

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#11 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@gooodguyy: Watching the nhl?

Anyway

Round 1:

Seed 1 yoda vs seed 16 adi gallia

Seed 2 Mace windu vs seed 15 stass Allie

Seed 3 anakin vs seed 14 aayla secura

Seed 4 obi wan vs seed 13 quinlan vos

Seed 5 plo koon vs seed 12 eeth koth

Seed 6 kit fisto vs seed 11 depa billaba

Seed 7 ki adi mundi vs seed 10 saesee tiin

Seed 8 Shaak ti vs seed 9 agen kolar

Round 2:
Yoda vs Tiin, yoda stomps

Windu vs Ti, windu stomps

Anakin vs Fisto, Anakin stomps

Obi Wan vs Plo Koon, Obi Wan stomps

Round 3:

Yoda vs Obi Wan yoda stomps

Anakin vs Windu Anakin wins

Final: Anakin vs Yoda:

Yoda in a great fight

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#12 Posted by HitTheAssasin (8223 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: just a question.Why do you think Kit Fits beats Depa?In Shatterpoint Mace said that her bladework was equal or superior to his and that she was the only other living master of Vaapad.

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#13 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: just a question.Why do you think Kit Fits beats Depa?In Shatterpoint Mace said that her bladework was equal or superior to his and that she was the only other living master of Vaapad.

mace was ridiculously injured and had a boost combatively. Later on depa got beat by grevious

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#14 Posted by TheMuser (1888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser said:

@kbroskywalker: For curiosity sake, why Tiin>Mindu?

Tiin being chosen by Mace to take sids presumably with him and the others mace chose being the best combatants to take on the sith lord off the jedi available at the time(except for anakin off course).

That would put tiin above cin drallig and shaak ti. He also has some nice hype himself.

Seems better than briefly fighting a pre prime ventress and getting stomped by grevious(and yes he was exhausted, he also has several other jedi helping him) imo

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#16 Edited by TheMuser (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Tiin being chosen by Mace to take sids presumably with him and the others mace chose being the best combatants to take on the sith lord off the jedi available at the time(except for anakin off course).

That would put tiin above cin drallig and shaak ti. He also has some nice hype himself.

Shaak was in charge of defending the temple in case something went wrong IIRC (Which it did) Cin is mostly hype depending on what information you take as valid. (Video game cannon has always been a strange topic for me.) and in any case he also may have been left to defend the temple, I don't know that this actually puts Tiin>Cin.

The most impressive hype I can think of about him is the quote about him being among the best of the jedi, which when it comes to the council members and it honestly doesn't mean much as far as putting him above mundi on that alone.

Seems better than briefly fighting a pre prime ventress and getting stomped by grevious(and yes he was exhausted, he also has several other jedi helping him) imo

I can't seem to find the time when Mundi fought Pre prime ventress, if you could provide evidence for this I would appreciate it. ( Do I see the entry on his RT but the link is invalid.) As to Mundi's fight with Greivous, I was actually rather impressed by his abilities in that fight.

First, as you mentioned, they were all exhausted. now we don't know to what degree individually they were exhausted. However, Mundi's preference against Greivous in this fight certainly out shown Shaak's own performance one on one. Grievous quickly defeated her using only two sabers, disarming her in short order, taking him 10 seconds. Meanwhile Mundi Held his own against grievous for a unknown period of time, However, he did hold out long enough to help to arrive, the battle could have been 2 minutes, or possibly far higher, we don't know unfortunately. In any case, grievous was using three lightsabers against mundi during that fight, with one being wielded by his foot, something highly unorthodox. Considering how he fodderized Aalya and other jedi, its safe to say mundi is significantly better then them.

Grevious certainly held his own against the jedi, however, they seldom came at him more then 2 at a time (I believe that only happened at the beginning of the fight.) And Grevious was constantly using unorthodox tactics to gain a edge in the group fight.

In any case I fail to see why Tiin>Mundi. perhaps you can enlighten me?

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#17 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

To be fair Kenobi made the claim that Mace and Shaak would handle it alone, which would make me think Kenobi held her in higher esteem than perhaps the others.

"Anakin, Mace and Shaak Ti are more than capable of seeing to that - - if Sidious is even there."

Labyrinth of Evil

However, when they actually discovered Sidious, Mace put her in charge of watching over the temple and left with the other three.

Which isn't suprising since her primary role during the clone wars has been on guard duty.

Being in-charge of Kamino, The Jedi Temple and defending Palpatine.

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#18 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser:

Shaak was in charge of defending the temple in case something went wrong IIRC

Source? Regradless Ti seems to agree with me:

"I'm the chosen one. My place is there." His breathing roughened, and he looked as if he was getting even sicker. "I have to be there. That's the prophecy, isn't it? I have to be there—"

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

And of course there's this:

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

And additionally there's this:

Saesee's flying practise also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection. As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi.

--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #114

Cin is mostly hype depending on what information you take as valid

His "hype" is valid. It doesn't get invalidated by getting stomped by a yoda/sidious level duelist in anakin. And as a battlemaster off course he's mastered all 6 forms and has taught said forms to thousands of jedi. And being listed along side yoda/mace/kenobi by dooku is a fantastic accolade all by itself.

and in any case he also may have been left to defend the temple

Source?

The most impressive hype I can think of about him is the quote about him being among the best of the jedi, which when it comes to the council members and it honestly doesn't mean much as far as putting him above mundi on that alone.

Its hardly the only hype. And its better than being "a great jedi".

I can't seem to find the time when Mundi fought Pre prime ventress, if you could provide evidence for this I would appreciate it. ( Do I see the entry on his RT but the link is invalid.)

It works on wollf's thread. though they only clashed blades twice.

Grievous quickly defeated her using only two sabers, disarming her in short order, taking him 10 seconds. Meanwhile Mundi Held his own against grievous for a unknown period of time, However, he did hold out long enough to help to arrive, the battle could have been 2 minutes, or possibly far higher, we don't know unfortunately.

1.You seem to be forgetting that when it was just ti and mundi, mundi was the one who was taken out first,

2. Or it could have been 5 seconds, or 10. No reason at all to think its as long as you're saying it is. What we do know is that when both ti and mundi faced grevious, Ti outlasted Mundi. So trying to use that fight to suggest Mundi>Ti is pretty dubious.

In any case, grievous was using three lightsabers against mundi during that fight, with one being wielded by his foot, something highly unorthodox. Considering how he fodderized Aalya and other jedi, its safe to say mundi is significantly better then them.

Which might mean anything if there was anything indicating he lasted long vs him. What we do know is that Ti outlasted him. And outlasting aayla is nice, but its not close to enough to put mundi above tiin who's hyped up to be one of the order's best and even one of the best in the history of the order.

Grevious certainly held his own against the jedi, however, they seldom came at him more then 2 at a time (I believe that only happened at the beginning of the fight.) And Grevious was constantly using unorthodox tactics to gain a edge in the group fight.

That only happened in the beginning of the fight because he fodderized most of his opponents. And while Grevious did have circumstances favoring him, he also was only using two blades and in addition to all that was faced with multiple opponents. And he didn't just hold his own, he utterly outclassed his opponents.

In any case I fail to see why Tiin>Mundi. perhaps you can enlighten me?

One is considered one of the best in the order and one of the most skilled in history, the other managed to not get wrecked too badly by grevious and was outlasted by shaak ti.

I think tiin takes this.

@kbroskywalker:

To be fair Kenobi made the claim that Mace and Shaak would handle it alone, which would make me think Kenobi held her in higher esteem than perhaps the others.

"Anakin, Mace and Shaak Ti are more than capable of seeing to that - - if Sidious is even there."

Labyrinth of Evil

However, when they actually discovered Sidious, Mace put her in charge of watching over the temple and left with the other three.

Which isn't suprising since her primary role during the clone wars has been on guard duty.

Being in-charge of Kamino, The Jedi Temple and defending Palpatine.

Thats...wow. The fcking darth lord of the sith can be stopped by mace+grevious-fodder? Regardless fair enough

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#19 Edited by decaf_wizard (17005 posts) - - Show Bio
@emperor339 said:

@kbroskywalker:

To be fair Kenobi made the claim that Mace and Shaak would handle it alone, which would make me think Kenobi held her in higher esteem than perhaps the others.

"Anakin, Mace and Shaak Ti are more than capable of seeing to that - - if Sidious is even there."

Labyrinth of Evil

However, when they actually discovered Sidious, Mace put her in charge of watching over the temple and left with the other three.

Which isn't suprising since her primary role during the clone wars has been on guard duty.

Being in-charge of Kamino, The Jedi Temple and defending Palpatine.

Thats...wow. The fcking darth lord of the sith can be stopped by mace+grevious-fodder? Regardless fair enough

Hahahahahaha.

I forgot that quote existed and Ive read LoE like 10 times now.

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#20 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339 said:

@kbroskywalker:

To be fair Kenobi made the claim that Mace and Shaak would handle it alone, which would make me think Kenobi held her in higher esteem than perhaps the others.

"Anakin, Mace and Shaak Ti are more than capable of seeing to that - - if Sidious is even there."

Labyrinth of Evil

However, when they actually discovered Sidious, Mace put her in charge of watching over the temple and left with the other three.

Which isn't suprising since her primary role during the clone wars has been on guard duty.

Being in-charge of Kamino, The Jedi Temple and defending Palpatine.

Thats...wow. The fcking darth lord of the sith can be stopped by mace+grevious-fodder? Regardless fair enough

Hahahahahaha.

I forgot that quote existed and Ive read LoE like 10 times now.

While we're on the topic of loe, hate to break it to ya but:

At Palpatine's apartment, Grievous had managed to fool everyone by placing the gunboat on display, then clandestinely transferring himself and his combat droids into the Republic gunship Lord Tyranus had promised would be waiting for them. He had been forced to improvise when Palpatine's protectors had opted to follow an alternate route to the bunker, and he had enjoyed chasing the mag-lev - - if not the brief duel on the roof of the train car. Tyranus had warned him about Mace Windu's prowess with a blade, and now he understood.

Labyrinth of Evil

(Credit to @emperordmb)

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#21 Posted by decaf_wizard (17005 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard said:
@emperor339 said:

@kbroskywalker:

To be fair Kenobi made the claim that Mace and Shaak would handle it alone, which would make me think Kenobi held her in higher esteem than perhaps the others.

"Anakin, Mace and Shaak Ti are more than capable of seeing to that - - if Sidious is even there."

Labyrinth of Evil

However, when they actually discovered Sidious, Mace put her in charge of watching over the temple and left with the other three.

Which isn't suprising since her primary role during the clone wars has been on guard duty.

Being in-charge of Kamino, The Jedi Temple and defending Palpatine.

Thats...wow. The fcking darth lord of the sith can be stopped by mace+grevious-fodder? Regardless fair enough

Hahahahahaha.

I forgot that quote existed and Ive read LoE like 10 times now.

While we're on the topic of loe, hate to break it to ya but:

At Palpatine's apartment, Grievous had managed to fool everyone by placing the gunboat on display, then clandestinely transferring himself and his combat droids into the Republic gunship Lord Tyranus had promised would be waiting for them. He had been forced to improvise when Palpatine's protectors had opted to follow an alternate route to the bunker, and he had enjoyed chasing the mag-lev - - if not the brief duel on the roof of the train car. Tyranus had warned him about Mace Windu's prowess with a blade, and now he understood.

Labyrinth of Evil

(Credit to @emperordmb)

What does that prove? All it proves he is taking Mace seriously when before he was underestimating him and he was hindered during that fight.

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#22 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard:

Except that dooku's warning was that grveious would get beat vs windu. SO if he's saying that dooku's right, well then he's saying him being outmatched vs windu is right. And yea grevious was hindered, but thats not relevant to what dooku was saying.

Addtionally it was a brief duel.

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#23 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Thats...wow. The fcking darth lord of the sith can be stopped by mace+grevious-fodder? Regardless fair enough

To be fair, it's no worse an estimate of Palpatine's abilities than the quote you used wher Shaak thought the strike team would be able to handle things.

Either way it's just people praising each other, without any real knowledge of just how strong the true threat is.

Also Shaak isn't Grievous 'fodder', as much as one might wish to twist the Hypori situation.

Except that dooku's warning was that grveious would get beat vs windu. SO if he's saying that dooku's right, well then he's saying him being outmatched vs windu is right. And yea grevious was hindered, but thats not relevant to what dooku was saying.

When did Dooku confirm that Grievous couldn't win?

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#24 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Thats...wow. The fcking darth lord of the sith can be stopped by mace+grevious-fodder? Regardless fair enough

To be fair, it's no worse an estimate of Palpatine's abilities than the quote you used wher Shaak thought the strike team would be able to handle things.

Either way it's just people praising each other, without any real knowledge of just how strong the true threat is.

Also Shaak isn't Grievous 'fodder', as much as one might wish to twist the Hypori situation.

1. I mean i guess mace could stop most dark lords of the sith's himself.

If anything its nice symbolism of the order's arrogance being their downfall. Seriously, if you're taking on sids, why not wait for yoda, why assume your second best can do it

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#25 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:

He din't confirm that grevious didn't win, grevious basically did by confirming dooku was right when he made the following assessment:

But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters."

He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - - a Makashi flourish.

"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"

He flicked his blade quickly, ridding two of the guards of their staffs, then placing the glowing tip a millimeter from Grievous's death-helmeted visage.

"Finesse. Artfulness. Economy. Otherwise, my friend, I fear that you will end up beyond the repair of even the Geonosians. Do you take my meaning?"

Grevious later understands's Dooku's warning above is right(regardless of whether dooku was influenced by emotion):

he had enjoyed chasing the mag-lev - - if not the brief duel on the roof of the train car. Tyranus had warned him about Mace Windu's prowess with a blade, and now he understood.

Labyrinth of Evil

This would indicate that mace did outmatch grevious despite it being a breif bout. Additionally there's him not "enjoying" the duel and off cours ehim failing to exactly replicate vapaad.

And off course mace only nfrd grevious because well , he had to save the chancellor and the train they were on was about to derail

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#26 Edited by decaf_wizard (17005 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker said:

@decaf_wizard:

Except that dooku's warning was that grveious would get beat vs windu. SO if he's saying that dooku's right, well then he's saying him being outmatched vs windu is right. And yea grevious was hindered, but thats not relevant to what dooku was saying.

Addtionally it was a brief duel.

You making that to be what its not. It never said Dooku told Greivous he would lose to mace or be outmatched by him

This would indicate that mace did outmatch grevious despite it being a breif bout. Additionally there's him not "enjoying" the duel and off cours ehim failing to exactly replicate vapaad.

Almost copying somebodies style in seconds is better than literally anybody in Star Wars has for memorizing styles. Also, Im pretty sure Vaapad requires the force to use correctly so thats probably why he couldn't and has nothing to do with skill

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#27 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

All Dooku confirmed was that they were a threat to him if he wasn't careful and Grievous confirmed this.

You'd be stretching it to say he was completely outmatched in the blade.

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#28 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2640 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Obi-Wan have the high ground?

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#29 Edited by TheMuser (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker

Source?

Sure thing.

"Master Ti and Gate Master Jurokk will direct the Temple's defense," he said as he reached the others. "We are shutting down all nav beacons and signal lights, we have armed the older Padawans, and all blast doors are sealed and code-locked." His gaze swept the Masters. "It's time to go."

Revenge of the Sith novelization

Regradless Ti seems to agree with me:

"I'm the chosen one. My place is there." His breathing roughened, and he looked as if he was getting even sicker. "I have to be there. That's the prophecy, isn't it? I have to be there—"

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Um...Yeah, the Masters are the best of the order. Mundi was also a master. I fail to see how this does anything to support your case? Am I missing something here?

And of course there's this:

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

A good accolade, however, This isn't enough for me to place Tiin above any other noteworthy jedi swordsman on this basis alone. Particularly when we have other feats to consider, more on this later.

And additionally there's this:

Saesee's flying practise also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection. As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi.

--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #114

impressive, and tiin does have some dank TK feats IIRC, However, those feats were done at a time he would have been able to gather his power, not exactly a combative force feat again, IIRC. (I swear I stop debating for a bit to work on a blog and I am already rusty :)

His "hype" is valid. It doesn't get invalidated by getting stomped by a yoda/sidious level duelist in anakin.

Do you always have to take the least generous interpretation of what I say? Give me at least a bit of credit, In context I was referring to if you considering the video game of the revenge of the sith fight between Cin and Anakin valid, in which he does rather well, personally I don't consider it valid, and was unsure if you did.

And as a battlemaster off course he's mastered all 6 forms and has taught said forms to thousands of jedi. And being listed along side yoda/mace/kenobi by dooku is a fantastic accolade all by itself.

Being a battle master does give him some level of credence I agree, Teaching people I put less stock in, also it would take time away from mastering his own craft presumably. in any case when was he listed among the aforementioned.

and in any case he also may have been left to defend the temple

Source?

I have none, that being the reason I used the "may have been" as qualifiers. This was merely to point out that we don't know (In fact I would argue that he obviously didn't due to shaak's presence not being on the team) that he picked the top people there at the time and that everyone whom was not chosen is inherently weaker then the 3 whom were.

Its hardly the only hype. And its better than being "a great jedi".

I agree, and this would make sense if Mundi didn't have other feats to back him up.

It works on wollf's thread. though they only clashed blades twice.

Screw that then.

1.You seem to be forgetting that when it was just ti and mundi, mundi was the one who was taken out first,

By a kick, and he recovered in those 10 seconds when tons of debris fell on him. I see you have not yet given up your campaign of Landing a kick=Superiority. Which I suppose means Ventress>TCW Kenobi by long term incantation. Dooku>TCW anakin/TCW Kenobi at once. ect ect. Ultimately landing a kick means very little to me in claiming that it shows superior skill.

2. Or it could have been 5 seconds, or 10. No reason at all to think its as long as you're saying it is. What we do know is that when both ti and mundi faced grevious, Ti outlasted Mundi. So trying to use that fight to suggest Mundi>Ti is pretty dubious.

My primary reason was that the arc troopers (at the very least the same arc commander fordo) sent in to save the jedi were from the same group under Kenobi/Skywalkers command earlier in the show, therefore they would have to get together and travel from Muunilinst to hypori. I had always assumed it would take a relatively long period of time to accomplish this, considering the worlds were not in the same sector. Although I agree this is a assumption that perhaps should not have been made.

However, for argument sake, take the amount of time since the message is sent to the moment when Mundi and grievous begin their face off, taking about five minutes roughly. Subtract the scenes we see with the arc troopers on their way there, up until they actually see mundi get disarmed. that takes round 2 minutes.

So basically what you are asking me to buy is that it took the arc troopers (Or at the least the arc commander) Who had just finished a battle (Not expecting another engagement) 3 minutes to board a ship with hyper drive (not a gunship since they don't have one) get all the troopers together, take off for a system in another sector IDK how far away, get into a gunship, disembark from said ship with hyper drive (Probably a warship) and hit atmosphere in all of 3 minutes.....

There are one of three possibilities for this:

1. these ark troopers have super speed and the sector they were going to was literally around the corner and everyone has super human levels of speed including the ships themselves having hyper drives that could get to the core worlds in 15 mins max.

2. I got my math wrong in which case everything above is mute.

3. Mundi held off grievous while exhausted and solo for a pretty good length of time.

For the record, I have no issue having screwed up the math somewhere in here, but I am not sure where. So, take from this what you will, if I am wrong, show me where.

Which might mean anything if there was anything indicating he lasted long vs him. What we do know is that Ti outlasted him.

I refer you to the above comments.

And outlasting aayla is nice, but its not close to enough to put mundi above tiin who's hyped up to be one of the order's best and even one of the best in the history of the order.

Agreed. Interesting you should mention highly hyped people. Allow me to introduce Sharad Hett

He was a legend among the jedi.

No Caption Provided

So many people were praising him for his accomplishments and power that it actually put him at risk of falling to the dark side.

No Caption Provided

Just at the sight of his lightsaber any jedi born in the last 30 years would have known him.....This is just how famous he became. All of which indicates a high level of skill.

No Caption Provided

The council claims that, only mundi out of all of them could be sent on this mission because he was the only one who could be trusted not to hold back in a fight against him and kill him if needed. None of the jedi council were aloud to go for fear they might hesitate in doing what must be done because they knew him personally.

Also Yoda does have a rather hyperbolic statement about only mundi being able to defeat sharad of all living jedi. Even if we lowball this accolade its still rather high praise from the grand master.

No Caption Provided

Lastly as a cherry on top we have Sharad wondering why they sent mundi rather then Jinn to fight him. This implies the level of skill Mundi was at at the time in order to confront Sharad.

No Caption Provided

Beyond this we have Mundi trying to convince sharad to come back to the order to battle the sith, due to his skill.

No Caption Provided

All of this being years before the clone wars, and more years before the end of said clone wars, so, pretty safe to say pre prime mundi.

That only happened in the beginning of the fight because he fodderized most of his opponents. And while Grevious did have circumstances favoring him, he also was only using two blades and in addition to all that was faced with multiple opponents. And he didn't just hold his own, he utterly outclassed his opponents.

Due to exhaustion, sure. Unless my above statements are correct in which case mundi held his own against grievous for a time. I have in any case already addressed the mundi vs Grevious fight.

One is considered one of the best in the order and one of the most skilled in history,

With very little in the way of concrete facts or feats to show for it unfortunately.

the other managed to not get wrecked too badly by grevious and was outlasted by shaak ti.

Well, that and more as I have shown here.

I think tiin takes this.

Eh, Going to need a spot more convincing. Not that I can't see your side of this, but honestly not enough i'm afraid.

EDIT: Apologies, a error occurred and some of the spelling is screwed up.

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#30 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

Sure thing.

that doesn't really hurt my argument. If Mace is putting ti in charge of defense rather that adding her to his 4 team strike team to once and for all end the sith order, that seems to imply to me who mace values more as a combatant(at least in this kind of engagement). And Ti seems to agree with my interpretation

Um...Yeah, the Masters are the best of the order. Mundi was also a master. I fail to see how this does anything to support your case? Am I missing something here?

Bruh The "masters" Ti are referring to are the ones who are facing sids rather than anakin who wants to be there.

A good accolade, however, This isn't enough for me to place Tiin above any other noteworthy jedi swordsman on this basis alone. Particularly when we have other feats to consider, more on this later.

Well let see what you've got

impressive, and tiin does have some dank TK feats IIRC, However, those feats were done at a time he would have been able to gather his power, not exactly a combative force feat again, IIRC. (I swear I stop debating for a bit to work on a blog and I am already rusty :)

That can be said for mundi's best feats. Regardless i doubt force use will decide this battle and i really don;t want to argue this because all of the scans for tiin's tk feats are broken.(ulic quel droma blog? make sure to include malachor scaling)

Do you always have to take the least generous interpretation of what I say? Give me at least a bit of credit, In context I was referring to if you considering the video game of the revenge of the sith fight between Cin and Anakin valid, in which he does rather well, personally I don't consider it valid, and was unsure if you did.

My bad, cin has unfortunately had his hype unfairly dismissed based on being stomped by anakin in the past. And yea as I doubt its validity I'm using hype outside the game

This was merely to point out that we don't know (In fact I would argue that he obviously didn't due to shaak's presence not being on the team) that he picked the top people there at the time and that everyone whom was not chosen is inherently weaker then the 3 whom were.

How does shaak not being there help your case?

Considering the statement: "I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."

Of our best presumably in context meaning four of the best in the temple, in any case it doesn't state that he did actually chose the four best jedi there. So I still don't think I buy Tiin>Cin on the basis of whom was chosen.

1. Well no, its not explicitly stated by mace. But I find the idea of mace not choosing the best available comabtants to face off vs the dark lord of the sith incredibly illogical(aside from anakin who was excluded specifically on the basis of his mental state). And additionally my interpretation has supporting evidence in ti's own statement.

2. Additionally the qualifier of "of our" can be easily explained by

A. The statement referring to the order in general and thus mace not having the best available(yoda, kenobi)

B. Anakin not being included despite mace earlier on admitting he was "arguable the most powerful jedi alive" and being vastly above any of mace's choices because of Anakin's vulnerable mental state.

By a kick, and he recovered in those 10 seconds when tons of debris fell on him. I see you have not yet given up your campaign of Landing a kick=Superiority. Which I suppose means Ventress>TCW Kenobi by long term incantation. Dooku>TCW anakin/TCW Kenobi at once. ect ect. Ultimately landing a kick means very little to me in claiming that it shows superior skill.

Getting past someone's guard with a physical strike isan indication of superior skill. Now off course it doesn't have to be definitive depending on what else happens in the fight but mundi off course didn't actually do anything to grevious besides that. To address your examples.

Which I suppose means Ventress>TCW Kenobi by long term incantation.

If we took that fight at face value, then yes, ventress>tcw kenobi. as koing somone with a kick while fending another opponent off pretty clearly indicates who's better. Off course we shouldn't because that same fight also featured ventress ragdolling kenobi+anakin(despite the former having been able to casually crack her ribs before hand 1 v 1 and anakin having later ragdolled her 1 v 1 and previously run right through her force blasts 1 v 1) and was featured on an arc which has crap like opress driving back kenobi+anakin(the former of whom later completely outclassed him despite oppress having the help of a superior in maul) and best of all had oppress simultaneouslt choking both dooku +ventress. Making the fight even more dubious is that both kenobi and anakin have outdueled/outmatched ventress 1 v 1. And the cherry on top is that the fight was circumstantial.

Dooku>TCW anakin/TCW Kenobi at once

Dooku didn't kick both simultaneously and he is >either. As should be fairly obvious given his ability to grab and throw one right before double kicking and staggering the other.

you will, if I am wrong, show me where.

There's a couple problems. First off when we see the clone gunship. they are already on hypori and are "approaching their target':

https://youtu.be/9WBY-C-VKTg?t=1h9m2s

Second off, the event which would have prompted the clones' to be ordered to go, kenobi seeing the holocom, happened before the fight even started. In fact it happened while the battle for hypori was still going on.

Agreed. Tiin is hyped highly, however without feats to back this up I take it with a grain of salt. I

Why does Tiin's lack of exposure inavlidate or cast the hype into doubt? Unless there's something inherently wrong with the hype, a reason for the hype to be unreliable, or tiin has showings or scaling which somehow debunks the hype. There's no reason not to take the hype seriously. Evidence shouldn't be dismissed because of a lack of exposure. Indeed, him being chosen by mace to take on the dark lord of the sith supports the hype. And the sources of the hype aren't unreliable either. And Mundi's showing vs grevious doesn't at all have to place him above tiin as we have no idea how tiin would fare by comparison. Neither does it prove that Mundi is worthy of the same hype that tiin gets.

He was a legend among the jedi.

Yes, because of his "continual acts of daring".

So many people were praising him for his accomplishments and power that it actually put him at risk of falling to the dark side.

First off, there's no mention of him being praised for power in your scan. Given the scan above it, chances are the primary reason for these accolades were his "acts of daring". More importantly, we have absolutely no idea what the accolades were, and who gave them. These accolades could easily be "you're a great jedi". "you inspire me:, "you're more daring than most", "you're a good jedi", you're not a terrible jedi ya know", "you're not too shabby mite". Accolades which would be widespread primarily due to his fame. Furthrmore we have no clue who is giving these accolades whereas with tiin we have them coming from masters of the council.

Just at the sight of his lightsaber any jedi born in the last 30 years would have known him.....This is just how famous he became. All of which indicates a high level of skill.

The scan't broken so if you don't mind,. who is saying this? Additionally its talking about fame/respect. not once is skill ever mentioned.

That quote doesn't indicate anything about combative skill/power.

Also Yoda does have a rather hyperbolic statement about only mundi being able to defeat sharad of all living jedi. Even if we lowball this accolade its still rather high praise from the grand master.

Yea, we can attribute that to the statement you posted above with him having to the skills to defeat sharad because of his lack of a personal connection with hett, as he wouldn't hold back or hesitate to kill him. Especially given how asinine that statement would be otherwise.

Lastly as a cherry on top we have Sharad wondering why they sent mundi rather then Jinn to fight him. This implies the level of skill Mundi was at at the time in order to confront Sharad.

That... doesn't at all help your argument here. If anything it would imply that sharad saw qui gon to be more skilled than mundi.

Beyond this we have Mundi trying to convince sharad to come back to the order to battle the sith, due to his skill.

Now that is actually good hype but its hardly on the level or close to what tiin's got.

Due to exhaustion, sure. Unless my above statements are correct in which case mundi held his own against grievous for a time. I have in any case already addressed the mundi vs Grevious fight.

Addressed. And yes mundi was exhausted, he also had the aid of several jedi, grevious only using two blades. Either way it hardly proves anything for mundi vs tiin because we haven't actually seen grevious face tiin.

With very little in the way of concrete facts or feats to show for it unfortunately.

Lack of exposure doesn't invalidate hype. Especially given the sources of this hype

Well, that and more as I have shown here.

Yea nothing you've shown is all that impressive compared to folks like tiin. Mundi has a lot more quantity to go on than tiin, but the quality is rather lacking.

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#31 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:

A little more than that:

"Finesse. Artfulness. Economy. Otherwise, my friend, I fear that you will end up beyond the repair of even the Geonosians. Do you take my meaning?"

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#32 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Yes, because Grievous' life is at risk and he shouldn't take them lightly. That's what being a threat to him means.

Just because Dooku decided to be snarky about it doesn't mean Dooku was saying something he wasn't.

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#33 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1:

Yoda vs Adi Gallia

Need I elaborate on how Yoda completely mauls Gallia in under a second?

Mace Windu vs Stass Allie

Allie is mainly a healer, not even a combatant. She can block seven strikes, that's it.

Anakin vs Aayla Secura

Aayla is no wimp. but Anakin should be two tiers ahead of her in saber combat, much better in the Force, and has better strength, speed and durability. Of course, in a morals off fight, she could seduce Anakin and then kill him at his most vulnerable.

Obi-Wanvs Quinlan Vos

This depends on the version of Quin. EU Vos gets taken out pretty decisively, but DD Vos would give Kenobi a hell of a fight in sabers, and the noticeable gap in the Force between them could tip the fight into Quin's favor. Split for now.

Plo Koon vs Eeth Koth

Plo. Better skill, given how he matched Ventress with a broken arm, much greater Force power. Koth's main feat is having to abuse his TK to momentarily gain an edge on TCW Grievous, who clearly was at ease and thought Koth was weaker than he actually was.

Kit Fisto vs Depa Billaba

My take on this may be controversial, but I say Depa. Although Kit should be more skilled, his Shii-Cho is bad against single opponents, and in Canon Billaba has been confirmed as a very proficient user of Soresu, which would work perfectly against Shii-Cho. Now, Depa has not mastered Vaapad, but she has a rough knowledge of it. Kit Fisto is kinda... passionate at times, and could perhaps give into some kind of frustration, because Shii-Cho is very offensive, and all about giving yourself to the flow of the battle, and if the battle gets aggresive, Kit would get... too aggresive. And with that in play, Vaapad can help Depa. Force-wise, Depa doesn't have much feats, but she has shown ability in Tutaminis and the ability to land a powerful Force blow on Grievous. Now, for performances against Grievous. At first glance, Kit's is better. But there is something called:

CIRCUMSTANCES.

And we must look at context to really see if that is true. In Kit vs Grievous, the fight begins with Grievous using four sabers, and Kit barely facing him head on. There- Kit, in a 1v4 blade contest, cannot face GG head on. He has to abuse the environment (fog) to hide from Grievous. There. Another factor. Kit then gets into a bladelock with GG, who tries to slice Fisto across the head. Fisto ducks, and cuts off Grievous's arm, and now it's a 2v3 blade contest. Kit gains an edge, flooring GG with a push. Then, of course, the MagnaGuards come, Kit is surrounded, and forced to flee. So, in order to beat GG, Kit had to abuse an environment non-existent in neutral ground, cut off one of his arms and make it 2 vs 3 blades. In 1 vs 4 blades, Kit barely faced Grievous head on. Also, Kit's Shii-Cho is good for multiple opponents, or in this case, multiple blades.

In Depa's fight against Grievous, he also uses four sabers. With no apparent circumstances favoring or hindering either side, they go at it. Depa gives Grievous immense grief, cutting off two of his hands and landing a Force blow that had much more impact than Kit's. Grievous did eventually beat Depa, but without circumstances, Depa did well against Grievous. Very well. Given that Kit required an insane amount of circumstances and style advantage to edge Grievous, he'd get beaten decisively on even ground. And Depa was not beaten decisively. The only thing she had was a style edge, Soresu is good against Grievous. Still. She beats Fisto 6-7/10.

Ki-Adi-Mundi vs Saesee Tiin

Mundi wins this. Tiin's enhanced Iktochi TP is a non-factor, and although Tiin is better with the standard abilities (throwing a droid four kilometers, something which Mace Windu could not replicate) Mundi has lifted a skiff whilst lightly injured. That shows at least comparable power, and more control, less straightforwardness. Tiin is virtualy featless as a duelist, and being on the Council doesn't work because Ki is too. Mundi has fought Ventress to somewhat of a stalemate, and held his own for a minute and a half against Grievous even after being exhausted from battle, ambushed and terrified. Due to better dueling feats, Mundi wins. Yes, Tiin has a very nice accolade but that isn't a "get out of jail free" card for him.

Shaak Ti vs Agen Kolar

My opinion on this one will also be probably controversial, and I could call it a dead even split- but I have to say someone. I say Ti. Why is this so? Kolar is the better swordsman- he has been stated as one of the Order's most celebrated swordsmen along with Mace, and in ROTS did not leave Coruscant in case Sidious, the mysterious Dark Lord of the Sith the Jedi knew existed (not the identity) made a drastic move to end the Republic, since Dooku had died and his plans were supposedly in ruins. He also stomped Quinlan Vos, while holding back to a degree. Quinlan was a double agent for the Jedi, so whether he was going full-out or not is debatable. Still. Shaak is good with a blade, but holding her own against Grievous while drained for a short period of time isn't better than this. Still, her physicals should be at least on par (Kolar has durability but Shaak arguably has strength, and definitely has speed+dexterity) and what gives her the win is her power. She effortlessly threw rubble at Grievous, performed an impressive feat with Anakin+Obi-Wan, commanded Sarlaccs to attack Galen Marek, and basically kept an entire planet from being consumed by the Dark Side. She wins- but probably just because I need to say someone wins.

Round 2:

(I'm assuming this is bracket-like, so Yoda and Mace fight, Anakin vs Obi/Quin, etc.)

Yoda vs Mace Windu

Yoda wins this. Faster, quite ahead of Mace in saber dueling (given how Mace has been stated second to Yoda, Yoda being the best) and tiers ahead in power, given how he has lifted armies of Droidekas, forced tanks and B2 Super Battle Droids back into ships, two Separatist troop-carriers into each other, and held his own against Sidious in Force contests. Not much to explain here.

Anakin vs Obi-Wan/Quinlan Vos

Anakin wins against either Kenobi or Quinlan. Superior power, dueling, and physicals. Kenobi's victory in ROTS was circumstancial- Anakin is one tier ahead of Kenobi. Quinlan is behind Kenobi in dueling. While Anakin vs Vos in Force is not a complete lopsided mismatch as Anakin vs Obi-Wan would be, Anakin is still clearly ahead of his opposition. Skywalker wins.

Plo Koon vs Depa Billaba

Plo wins. While Billaba's skill could be at the very least comparable or equal to Plo's, given her very good performance against Grievous, Plo has superior Force power in a combative sense (at least in a 1v1 vs a Force wielder) and that does give him a narrow win. Billaba could- and should- win a saber contest, but she's not winning an all out fight (for a majority, that is.)

Ki-Adi-Mundi vs Shaak Ti

While it is a close matchup, I favor Ti. Although her performances against Grievous are worse than Mundi's performance, her forms put her at a serious disadvantage. Shaak uses Makashi and Ataru; Makashi will fall to Grievous's kinetic power, and she won't employ acrobatics while tired; Ataru sucks at defense, which is vital against GG. She held her own against twelve MagnaGuards, and even if she was outmatched pretty quickly with only her lightsaber, it's still OK. Power-wise, Mundi has lifted a skiff, and that's really good, but Shaak also has some pretty good Force feats, that would perhaps beat Mundi's, because she is more versatile. Physically, Shaak is younger, faster, more flexible, perhaps stronger, and her Togrutan head tails heighten her senses. She wins- slightly.

Round 3:

Yoda vs Anakin Skywalker

Same as Yoda vs Mace. Superior physicals (at least speed), Force powers, dueling, and most if not every area related to direct combat, by quite a noticeable margin.

Plo Koon vs Shaak Ti

Plo wins in a great fight. He is more skilled, given his impressive performance against Ventress, and has more raw power; Ti could be more versatile, and Koon won't likely pull out Electric Judgement and use it as a weapon against Shaak, but if he does, it might stagger or surprise her. Physically, Shaak is superior, and Plo has a gaping weaknesses. Plo, however, enjoys the best advantages (power and skill) against his opposition. He goes to the final.

Final:

Yoda vs Plo Koon

Yoda stomps.

Yoda wins.

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#34 Posted by Gooodguyy (54 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by TheMuser (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Ya know. It helps to tag the person your debating with......

that doesn't really hurt my argument. If Mace is putting ti in charge of defense rather that adding her to his 4 team strike team to once and for all end the sith order, that seems to imply to me who mace values more as a combatant(at least in this kind of engagement). And Ti seems to agree with my interpretation

Honestly, I don't think I agree with that interpretation. It is possible Mace wanted people whom are highly powerful to remain at the temple in case something went wrong. Shaak being the spear head for that group. We just don't know his rational unless you have some evidence to present.

Bruh The "masters" Ti are referring to are the ones who are facing sids rather than anakin who wants to be there.

This might make sense if Shaak's statement was not ludicrous on the face of it.

"I'm the chosen one. My place is there." His breathing roughened, and he looked as if he was getting even sicker. "I have to be there. That's the prophecy, isn't it? I have to be there—"

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

As you have mentioned previously anakin was considered to be extremely powerful by Mace, however, his reasoning for keeping anakin there was that anakin was to close to palps. However, if we accept shaak's statement to anakin at face value we would be suppose to assume people on the council>Anakin or at the very least Tiin>Anakin.

In any case if you again take this at face value and yet assume she is referring specifically to mace and the strike team, her statement would put Tiin/Kolar/Fisto>Obi/Yoda/whom every else you want to name. Notice that she does not say "Some of the best" She says "The Best." and it is referring to the entire jedi order.

other interpretations of this are:

A. Shaak doesn't know anakins combative prowess and/or considering it to be a waste for him to go.

or more likely

B. She doesn't want him to go due to his emotional state but can't fight him therefore is trying to convince him to stay by talking up the power of the strike team. (This being the interpretation I find most likely personally.)

Simply put I don't see how this can be used to state that because tiin was chosen he>Cin/Ti. Once again, I am open to being wrong here but it seems you have to stench this quite a bit in order to get that interpretation out of it.

That can be said for mundi's best feats.

A fair point, although Mundi also has showings of using the force in combat without having time to gather his power so, although they weren't particularly impressive so eh. in any case....

Regardless i doubt force use will decide this battle and i really don;t want to argue this because all of the scans for tiin's tk feats are broken.

Agreed.

(ulic quel droma blog?)

Yeah, its basically done and has been for a while but some of the points need some more thinking through. tbh Ulic hype is slowly dying.......

My bad, cin has unfortunately had his hype unfairly dismissed based on being stomped by anakin in the past. And yea as I doubt its validity I'm using hype outside the game

Fair.

How does shaak not being there help your case?

Via showings shaak>Tiin at that point. Although I suppose this is that point of contention considering you are arguing that Tiin>Shaak via statements so this is assuming my own conclusion, apologies. In any case the point still stands that we don't know if Mace chose only the most powerful people to be on his squad leaving only comparatively weaker people behind to defend the temple in case something went wrong.

Well no, its not explicitly stated by mace. But I find the idea of mace not choosing the best available comabtants to face off vs the dark lord of the sith incredibly illogical

Eh, not really. If you know there is a chance you will fail against the dark lord it isn't a terrible idea to leave some strong people behind. Its called hedging your bets. Yes, you could I suppose throw your most powerful people into this attack, and then leave whom behind in case someone goes wrong? Better yet why not take the 10 most powerful that you have on hand rather then limit it to 4? As I already stated, we don't know mace's rational unless you have some evidence.

(aside from anakin who was excluded specifically on the basis of his mental state). And additionally my interpretation has supporting evidence in ti's own statement.

That is entirely dependent on your interpretation of shaak's statement as I addressed above.

2. Additionally the qualifier of "of our" can be easily explained by

A. The statement referring to the order in general and thus mace not having the best available(yoda, kenobi)

B. Anakin not being included despite mace earlier on admitting he was "arguable the most powerful jedi alive" and being vastly above any of mace's choices because of Anakin's vulnerable mental state.

Interesting, so when mace says "Of our best" you assume he is taking into account the entire jedi order for no visible reason that I can determine. Yet when shaak says "Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?" in context of arguing with anakin trying to keep him to stay, she is only referring to the jedi at hand?

In any case she is directly implying the masters>Anakin. So was she being serious? Was she trying to talk anakin out of it? Or did she not know how powerful anakin was? These are the only three possibilities I see tbh.

Perhaps I am missing something Kbro?

Getting past someone's guard with a physical strike isan indication of superior skill. Now off course it doesn't have to be definitive depending on what else happens in the fight but mundi off course didn't actually do anything to grevious besides that.

Um...I think I am a bit lost in this word soup at the underlined part. Elaborate please?

To address your examples. If we took that fight at face value, then yes, ventress>tcw kenobi. as koing somone with a kick while fending another opponent off pretty clearly indicates who's better. Off course we shouldn't because that same fight also featured ventress ragdolling kenobi+anakin(despite the former having been able to casually crack her ribs before hand 1 v 1 and anakin having later ragdolled her 1 v 1 and previously run right through her force blasts 1 v 1) and was featured on an arc which has crap like opress driving back kenobi+anakin(the former of whom later completely outclassed him despite oppress having the help of a superior in maul) and best of all had oppress simultaneouslt choking both dooku +ventress. Making the fight even more dubious is that both kenobi and anakin have outdueled/outmatched ventress 1 v 1. And the cherry on top is that the fight was circumstantial.

Funny, I thought that I would actually have to address some of the points in here but...Nah, I think you pretty much got it. The only point I was making is that kicking/physical strikes =/= superiority. Also Greivous obviously does>Mundi in this state due to defeating him via disarm. In the same way Greivous>Shaak in that state via disarm.

Dooku didn't kick both simultaneously and he is >either. As should be fairly obvious given his ability to grab and throw one right before double kicking and staggering the other.

He was landing physical hits in quick succession against both of them, removing one, then removing the other and so forth. Although its still a valid point you bring up.

I suppose if I did need another example (which I apparently don't) I would point to TCW greivous vs TCW kenobi.

There's a couple problems. First off when we see the clone gunship. they are already on hypori and are "approaching their target':

Loading Video...

Um...Yes, your point? we see the distress call come to Obi/Anai on munnilist, and then we can see everything that happens after the distress call in real time on hypori until Mundi and Greivous begin their fight (Totaling five minutes) as the camera cuts away. arc commander fordo was on munnilist when the call comes in, meaning that he has to get his troops together and travel to Hypori as stated above....I literally don't see what your point is?

When season two starts we see the Fordo in a gunship heading to mundi and grevious, and on camera we see two minutes of them reaching the fighting duo post hitting atmosphere. which we then subtract from from the five minutes post distress call to get three minutes in whicih you are claiming Fordo got from Munnilist to hypori.......

I'm sorry if I am being dense but I don't see your point at all.

Second off, the event which would have prompted the clones' to be ordered to go, kenobi seeing the holocom, happened before the fight even started. In fact it happened while the battle for hypori was still going on.

Yes, but we also see in real time everything that happens after the call is made. it took five minutes from the moment the call was made for the droid army to stop shooting, the jedi to run around a bit, gather together, talk a bit, get ambushed by grevious, and then for the fight between mundi and grevious solo to begin. How does this disprove anything I am saying. I am not saying the fight itself between grevious and the jedi took five minutes, I am saying from distress call to mundi v Greivous solo fight took five minutes on screen.

https://youtu.be/9WBY-C-VKTg?t=3795

I literally don't understand your argument, apologies. Can you elaborate?

Why does Tiin's lack of exposure inavlidate or cast the hype into doubt? Unless there's something inherently wrong with the hype, a reason for the hype to be unreliable, or tiin has showings or scaling which somehow debunks the hype. There's no reason not to take the hype seriously.

My issue with Tiin's hype is simple, it is a bit too generic. This is not to say it is invalid, I don't recall saying this. Consider the number of times we have heard a accolade stating that some of "Among the best" or "One of the best" or "Gifted" or whatever other common accolade phrase you want to sight. These are all lovely however mean very little to me in the grand scheme of things considering how many different levels of people have accolades like such.

However accolades that directly put someone>someone else are always incredibly relevant. A topic which we are arguing above, Tiin's hype only makes a big difference to me if you can prove via quotes tiin>Shaak/Cin.

Evidence shouldn't be dismissed because of a lack of exposure. Indeed, him being chosen by mace to take on the dark lord of the sith supports the hype.And the sources of the hype aren't unreliable either. And Mundi's showing vs grevious doesn't at all have to place him above tiin as we have no idea how tiin would fare by comparison. Neither does it prove that Mundi is worthy of the same hype that tiin gets.

supporting the hype=/=proving Tiin>Shaak/Cin.

Mundi vs Grievous doesn't put Mundi>Tiin if the fight lasted 5 seconds. However, as we arguing above, I fail to see how the fight could not have been draw out given my arguments above. Although tbh I didn't understand a lick of your counter so that might have something to do with it.

Yes, because of his "continual acts of daring".

Which harms this accolade because?

First off, there's no mention of him being praised for power in your scan.

While this is true, his power was noted as "Ever increasing" along with his influence. Meaning he was consistently getting stronger.

Given the scan above it, chances are the primary reason for these accolades were his "acts of daring". More importantly, we have absolutely no idea what the accolades were, and who gave them. These accolades could easily be "you're a great jedi". "you inspire me:, "you're more daring than most", "you're a good jedi", you're not a terrible jedi ya know", "you're not too shabby mite". Accolades which would be widespread primarily due to his fame. Furthrmore we have no clue who is giving these accolades whereas with tiin we have them coming from masters of the council.

This is true, we don't know whom was giving the accolades nor what they were. Nor did I ever claim we did, however, if he considered such a vast amount of praise as a possible path to the dark side it must have been a vast amount. Which in and of itself is worth something.

The scan't broken so if you don't mind,. who is saying this? Additionally its talking about fame/respect. not once is skill ever mentioned.

Mundi is saying this. I agree skill is never mentioned. A analogy (Something we all love to debate in) How many average sports players can you name? Those whom are not famously good, nor famously bad. Just average. chances are not many. Now consider the vast amount of praise Sharad got. To a degree that, even if hyperbolic, every jedi in the last thirty years knew what his lightsaberlooked like. Honestly, it would be impossible to imagine someone getting that famous in the jedi order without possessing a respectable (At least) level of skill.

That quote doesn't indicate anything about combative skill/power.

While it doesn't state anything as such, I believe that it honestly does indicate his level of ability being that legendary.

Yea, we can attribute that to the statement you posted above with him having to the skills to defeat sharad because of his lack of a personal connection with hett, as he wouldn't hold back or hesitate to kill him. Especially given how asinine that statement would be otherwise.

Yes, this statement would be ludicrous otherwise. However consider that they jedi council considered Hett such a dangerous opponent, that hesitation due to a past connection could actually have ended in the death of the jedi being sent. Otherwise why would the council not merely send someone else whom is considerably more skilled then mundi? or better yet why not send a jedi whom was not on the council and didn't know hett personally?

Even Yoda notes hett as being a hero whom the jedi need to have with them to combat the sith.

That... doesn't at all help your argument here. If anything it would imply that sharad saw qui gon to be more skilled than mundi.

....How? Sharad expected the council to send someone like Jinn, whom as we know is highly skilled and has several feats/accolades proving such. This speaks to both the level of opponent required to defeat Hett, which increases his own credibility, as well as increasing mundi's by default due to being sent to defeat him.

I suppose I might as well bring up that not only was hett noted as someone the jedi wanted to have help them fight the sith, but also someone the jedi feared could be a powerful weapon if used against them by the sith.

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Now that is actually good hype but its hardly on the level or close to what tiin's got.

So this is the only hype your on board with? A bit odd that.

Addressed. And yes mundi was exhausted, he also had the aid of several jedi, grevious only using two blades. Either way it hardly proves anything for mundi vs tiin because we haven't actually seen grevious face tiin.

Not much to say here until you clarify your argument around why the Mundi v Greivous fight didn't last at least 2 or 3 minutes tbh. Also worth considering that outside Tiin's accolades, he really doesn't have a leg to stand on as a duelist that I can see. And as of now I am still not buying his accolades as putting him>Shaak/Cin, Still trying to get where you are coming from there.

Lack of exposure doesn't invalidate hype. Especially given the sources of this hype

Discussed in detail.

Yea nothing you've shown is all that impressive compared to folks like tiin. Mundi has a lot more quantity to go on than tiin, but the quality is rather lacking.

Depends, if you can prove two things. First that Tiin>Cin/Shaak via statements. Second. If you can prove that the grievous V exhausted Mundi fight didn't last a long time. To the first, atm I see nothing definitive. To the second, I literally don't understand your argument, How does a guy on munnlilist get to a gunship in the hypori in three minutes? give all the circumstances surrounding it too?

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#37 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio