Jean Grey (X-Men Evolution) vs Emma Frost (Wolverine & The X-Men)

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samgee

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Jean Grey from X-Men Evolution VS Emma Frost from Wolverine And The X-Men

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Rules & Rounds

-R1 In Character

-R2 Morals Off

-R3 In Character /But Only Telepathy

-Random Encounter

-Fight Opposite End in Cerebro

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geekryan

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If Emma can force a telepathic battle, she wins all 3 rounds.

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Koays

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What Geek said.

This Jean doesn't have the feats to say she wouldnt get treated the way Emma did her version of Psylocke

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marygcrisostomo

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#5  Edited By marygcrisostomo

Emma Frost for all rounds

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callmebob

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#6 callmebob  Online

The fanboy in me is screaming as I type this. I want to wank Jean so badly. But I can't.

Emma, all three rounds.

I now hate myself a little bit.

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Mooty_Pass

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#7  Edited By Mooty_Pass

Emma Frost for the Win.

-I'm not really impressed with Jean Grey of X-EVO. Lame.

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last0fth3risen

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Emma wins all 3 rounds.

Evo Jean wasn't good at offensive TP yet. Bloodlusted Emma would end her. In character favors Emma too, because she's more ruthless.

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So I’m glad we all know Emma wins here. But I don’t think it’s that easy. Ebo Jean went toe to toe with Apocalypse powered Xavier and her telekinesis was pretty strong too. So it could be stalemate if she had to force Emma into her diamond form. Plus, she did have that Phoenix spark too, who knows overwhelming her like Emma would could activate it

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PyroFN

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@tariqjp said:

So I’m glad we all know Emma wins here. But I don’t think it’s that easy. Ebo Jean went toe to toe with Apocalypse powered Xavier and her telekinesis was pretty strong too. So it could be stalemate if she had to force Emma into her diamond form. Plus, she did have that Phoenix spark too, who knows overwhelming her like Emma would could activate it

I’m pretty certain her Phoenix spark is her only trump card at all, which is far too unquantifiable to be a reliable strategy for Jean.

These are Jean’s best telepathic feats in Evo:

•Kicking Charles Xavier out of her head when her powers were raging out-of-control

•Barely beating Horseman Death Xavier using Cerebro and tapping into the Phoenix

Emma has far more telepathic combat feats to go off of than Evo Jean did. Emma has:

•Tanking a psi-bolt from Psylocke and countering with her own psi-bolt. Then, casually flicking a psychic bolt from Psylocke before one-shotting her

•Winning an astral fight against the Shadow King by stalemating and outlasting him in stamina

•A close associate of Emma Frost stating that Five Telepaths (the Stepford Cuckoos) trained by her may not be able to beat her in a psychic fight

To add insult to injury, Emma’s anti-feats are far more understandable than Jean’s were.

Emma was Kicked out of Wolverine and the X-Men Jean’s head even with the Cuckoo’s help. It’s far more understandable because she actually had an active Phoenix Force in her body and she was considered a level five mutant, which was a term that was supposed to illustrate the movie Jean as a far more powerful mutant than Charles Xavier and Magneto, a characterization shared by the Wolverine and the X-Men Jean.

Meanwhile, Evo Jean was mind-controlled by Mesmero, who Charles Xavier went toe-to-toe with the first time and stomped the second. Evo Jean was also overpowered by Rogue who took a fraction of Jean’s power last time. Evo Jean also was overpowered by Legion, who Charles Xavier managed to engage in psychic combat and somewhat win against….somewhat.

Needless to say, Evo Jean had far better tk feats than she did telepathy, so there is no way she is winning against Emma Frost, who was only taking L’s from a Level 5 mutants backed by world-ending powers.

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marvelfan1992

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Emma wins all 3 rounds unless she somehow doesnt engage right away and allows herself to get TK'd by jean

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@pyrofn: was mulling it over and i don't think there's enough evidence to say Jean had the phoenix spark or however you wanna call it inside of her. Her manifesting a phoenix shield doesn't signify that she was tapping into any kind of phoenix force. It's really just more of an easter egg/foreshadowing to her becoming the phoenix later on as we see in the flash forwards.

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@pyrofn: was mulling it over and i don't think there's enough evidence to say Jean had the phoenix spark or however you wanna call it inside of her. Her manifesting a phoenix shield doesn't signify that she was tapping into any kind of phoenix force. It's really just more of an easter egg/foreshadowing to her becoming the phoenix later on as we see in the flash forwards.

I don’t think that is the case though. Jean would have no clue about the Phoenix at this age and nowhere in the show was she ever alerted of its existence.

So, for Jean to instinctively form a Phoenix for no reason in-character would be far too coincidental for it to just not be insider of her, unless we run on Hope Summers logic. If the producers wanted an Easter egg, they would have simply stuck with the vision at the end instead of showing her conjure a Phoenix out-of-nowhere and just have Jean do a final attack on the initial battle. No Phoenix shield. Just a psychic blast that works.

Where I do agree with you is that it won’t factor in the battle because only that single fight against Death Xavier is where it is actually used. Yet, Emma Frost also faced a sudden Phoenix appearance in her cartoon and not only survived a giant Phoenix explosion that destroyed the mansion and beyond it, she was the first to wake up before the X-Men, which allowed her kidnap Charles Xavier. She even does so again when Jean unleashed a psychic wave so powerful it ko’d an entire city and beyond to the X-Mansion. So, even if Emma were to face Evo Jean’s Phoenix, there is enough evidence to say she would get back up after an initial psychic blast.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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emma wins all 3

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LordOfAllHumans

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@pyrofn: Jean's full potential in alternate universes has been Phoenix related without the Phoenix Force involved though. The first X-men franchise had a non cosmic Phoenix representing Jean's full power. The current X-men shows full power Jean manifesting Phoenix imagery without connection to the force (which had a pink formless signature until fully bonding with Jean's Phoenix effect). There is an entire era of comic Jean manifesting Phoenix imagery without the force as originally it got that form from her to begin with.

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Koays

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@pyrofn: The Phoenix force isn't even hinted to be a thing in the series.

In fact the entire episode about her powers growing is just one big reference to the retcon Phoenix origin as just the natural growth of her powers.

Your assuming an entire concept exist based on the shape of an object when prior to that episode we are directly told her powers are growing to a point which we eventually see the hint of in the Epilog.

There's a whole episode your ignoring and entire non existence being your installing. It would essentially be like assuming the Celestials exist there because Apocalypse has technology or that because we saw Rama Tut the Fantastic Four are in that Universe.

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GamerDude77

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Emma

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PyroFN

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@pyrofn: Jean's full potential in alternate universes has been Phoenix related without the Phoenix Force involved though. The first X-men franchise had a non cosmic Phoenix representing Jean's full power. The current X-men shows full power Jean manifesting Phoenix imagery without connection to the force (which had a pink formless signature until fully bonding with Jean's Phoenix effect). There is an entire era of comic Jean manifesting Phoenix imagery without the force as originally it got that form from her to begin with.

That is true of the movies. As far as the cartoons are concerned, it varies.

90’s Animated series Jean Grey was possessed by the Phoenix at some point in their lives.

Evo is the one that follows the narrative of Phoenix was there inside Jean from the beginning. The issue with this is that we don’t have full context as to what Jean’s relationship to the Phoenix is in the show beyond the fact that she has it now in her teenage to young adult years.

Wolverine and the X-Men cheats by doing both. This is the only place where the movies directly affected other properties, in which Wolverine and the X-Men coins the phrase from the movies “Jean is a Level 5 Mutant”. Yet, Emma Frost explained the Phoenix as a separate force that was passed down to Jean at birth. So, in that respect, they say Jean always had the Phoenix Force, but it’s not what makes her a Class 5.

Let’s say for certain though that the Phoenix was accessible inside Evo Jean. Going by the shows narrative, Jean never resorted to that even in the most volatile situations. Jean held back an explosion with her telekinesis that could have killed her, even stating she can’t hold it as the explosion kept expanding inside her tk dome. Did not resort to Phoenix. Faced off against Legion who straight walked through her. Did not access the Phoenix. Even the episode “Power Surge” only has vague references to Phoenix and none were explicit enough to say she ever tapped into that power. The only explicit episode where Jean does tap into the Phoenix is that battle against Death Xavier. So I’m fairly certain it won’t be a factor in this battle against Emma Frost.

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#19  Edited By PyroFN

@koays: 1) “The Phoenix force isn't even hinted to be a thing in the series.

Your assuming an entire concept exist based on the shape of an object when prior to that episode we are directly told her powers are growing to a point which we eventually see the hint of in the Epilog

The issue with your skepticism here is that you are basically saying its either entirely coincidence that Jean’s shield takes the shape two wings or that it is just my own self-perception. I’m not sure which you are meaning, so I will answer them both:

•If the former is true, then my answer is to refer back to what I told Marvelfan. It would be far too coincidental for Jean to form two massive giant wings in mid-battle where her life is in peril and she needs a surge of power to win. By your own admission, Jean had never shown any interest in the myth of the Phoenix to think of that image and there was never any hint given to her that it exists. So there would be no logical reason for Jean to suddenly get creative and form massive wings from what was supposed to be a shield prior unless it was instinctive.

•If the latter is true, I would say you are flat-out wrong. Literally anyone and everyone that has watched the show and know of the lore of the comics determine that that is indeed a reference to the Phoenix. In fact, they go further than I do and say the entire episode of “Power Surge” is a big episode referencing Jean’s futur eof becoming Dark Phoenix based on the mere merit that the plot is her losing control of her powers. I don’t agree with that take personally, but I do agree with their assertion that what Jean did in her astral fight was summon the Phoenix in that one moment of desperation when she was reinforcing her shield.

2) “In fact the entire episode about her powers growing is just one big reference to the retcon Phoenix origin as just the natural growth of her powers.”

This I agree with and pointed out just earlier. My statement of the Phoenix always being there in Evo Jean is not because it was hinted at in “Power Surge”. I stated as much because it suddenly appears in “Ascension II“ mid-battle with no explanation of how it got inside Jean to begin with. My presumption is that it was always there because they never elaborate on how it’s possible that Jean suddenly forms a Phoenix shape with no explanation of why.

3) “There's a whole episode your ignoring and entire non existence being your installing

Not really. Just because the Phoenix doesn’t pop up in “Power Surge”, doesn’t mean it isn’t there somewhere in Jean’s mind. There are many, many alternate universes across X-Men media where the Phoenix Forces existence is just dormant and pops up randomly from within Jean.

Wolverine and the X-Men is a prime example of the Phoenix suddenly appearing out of nowhere and Xavier only realizing Jean Grey is the culprit of a dystopian future after Wolverine and Cyclops show him an image from Scott’s mind of Jean going full-Phoenix.

4) “It would essentially be like assuming the Celestials exist there because Apocalypse has technology or that because we saw Rama Tut the Fantastic Four are in that Universe

Thats not accurate.

Mine is more akin to believing the Fantastic Four exist because the Baxter Building is seen. And it’s a fair assumption to make, given it’s a Marvel cartoon.

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@pyrofn: There is no logical reason to believe that it was the Phoenix except that you walk into the series with prior knowledge from the comics.

Jean existing does not equate to the Phoenix Force. X-Men the last stand has Jean go Dark Phoenix. Does that mean in the original trilogy the Phoenix Force exist and shes tapping into its power?

Do we assume that Phoenix raptors from Jean and Rachel during the Revolution and Reloaded eras are them tapping the Phoenix?

Why would you assume that the creators chose that interpretation to take from the comics....tapping into the Phoenix force when it isnt there....when the only example of that happening between 2000 and 2003 hadn't even been fully explored yet by the time the episode aired and the series ended.

Your basically ignoring that across all of fiction a common storytelling trope is for the hero to be over powered and on their last legs only to call forth more power and defeat their enemy. Your ignoring that to imply that they were doing the same as Grant Morrison, BEFORE Grant Morrison, and ignoring the most well known interpretation of the concept...that Jean just got stronger.

It's alot of inferences your making based on information you gained 19 years worth of comics made afterwards.

2- My problem with everything your saying is that you pulled out of thin air that it was inside her.

Your ignoring that it would be the realization of Jeans only plot throughout the show, and saying that it instead is them introducing a new concept at the end of the series and never touching on it again.

3- Which of the Universes prior to 2003 used that concept?

Because i can point out 100 examples in fiction of the "heroic second wind" trope that line up perfectly with the running plot of Jeans powers growing.

4- it's a "marvel cartoon" doesn't mean anything. Spiderman TAS doesn't have Gwen Stacy. The Avengers don't exist in the 90s verse either. Norman Osbourne doesn't exist in the MCU.

Their are things called Easter eggs and shout outs.

What your doing is something that leads to the spread of massive misinformation by assuming your interpretation of an event is foreshadowing something based on information never presented and ignoring the evidence and what we are explicitly told.

If you watched X-Men Apocalypse and said that the Phoenix Force exist because she tapped into more power to defeat Apocalypse and completely ignored that Last Stand established her own growing power to be the cause of her strength you would STILL be wrong even if X-Men Dark Phoenix confirmed your belief because you used faulty logic and outside information to make an assumption.

This is where your at now. You CANNOT add headcanon to your reasoning and present it as fact otherwise I can just say that Jean using Phoenix raptors during Revolution is her tapping the Phoenix force because she eventually does that somewhere down the line in Morrisons run.

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@koays: Due to how comicvine mobile sucks, I’ve had to retype this convo multiple times. Needless to say, I am still quite excited to dig in to Jean’s lore.

1) “There is no logical reason to believe that it was the Phoenix except that you walk into the series with prior knowledge from the comics.”

That’s pretty much the point of references. It’s for the fans to pick out. No Marvel creator is gonna put the Infinity Gauntlet in the background of Odin’s Vault for the casuals who’ve never even read a comic book or watched a Marvel cartoon.

2) “Jean existing does not equate to the Phoenix Force. X-Men the last stand has Jean go Dark Phoenix. Does that mean in the original trilogy the Phoenix Force exist and shes tapping into its power?

While ignoring the sequel trilogy, no.

The difference here is that the Phoenix isn’t references in the movies. It’s a specific plot-point that Charles Xavier exposits to the audience. We are told clear as day it’s an alternate persona.

A more applicable comparison is X2‘s epilogue when we see a shining bird-shape flying in the waters as Jean is talking about evolution. It’s pretty clear what the hint was at the time, yet we are never explicitly told that that is the Phoenix flying under the waters.

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A concept X-Men: The Last Stand does not reconfirm because we know the directors back then changed, so Bryan Singer’s vision never manifested the way he intended. Based on that information, it is not unreasonable to assume that visual was meant to hint at the Phoenix.

In that same vain, no one is telling the audience what is happening on-screen in X-Men: Evolution. It is explicitly there to be both a reference and tension builder. Given what we know of Jean’s history, there is not much it could be, since it’s not an abstract shape and we know for a fact by Xavier’s vision that the Phoenix was indeed on the showrunner’s minds.

3) “Do we assume that Phoenix raptors from Jean and Rachel during the Revolution and Reloaded eras are them tapping the Phoenix?

No, but again, not the same situation. We are told explicitly by Rachel that the Phoenix Force left her and Jean and Storm explicitly state in issues 355 and 383 that its merely a manifestation of Jean’s telepathic abilities expressed at their full-potential.

A better comparison is X-Men: Forever vol 2 written by Chris Claremont. There is clear Phoenix imagery in the book, but nothing about it states either way about whether Jean is actually Phoenix or if it’s mere imagery expressed by her powers. With no hints either way from Claremont, we have only our own conclusions to draw based on the information given.

4) “Why would you assume that the creators chose that interpretation to take from the comics....tapping into the Phoenix force when it isnt there....when the only example of that happening between 2000 and 2003 hadn't even been fully explored yet by the time the episode aired and the series ended.”

Because stories aren’t planned on the fly usually. True, there are last minute changes, but they are usually planned in advanced by writers.

Given that the concept of Jean being Phoenix was originally supposed to be a thing in the late-90’s and was only abandoned due to time constraints where books were ending and writers were being switched where it would later be picked back up by Morrison, who was working alongside Chris Claremont writing XTreme X-Men at the time, it is not farfetched to assume editorial‘s mindset about Jean Grey and the Phoenix was that it was now a thing inside Jean Grey already in connection to her fullest potential.

5) “Your basically ignoring that across all of fiction a common storytelling trope is for the hero to be over powered and on their last legs only to call forth more power and defeat their enemy.

Not really. I am taking that fully into account. The issue with that is in the early-2000’s, the mindset was that Jean was either Phoenix/ Phoenix is her ultimate powerset or already possessed by it by the time we meet her.

6) “Your ignoring that to imply that they were doing the same as Grant Morrison, BEFORE Grant Morrison, and ignoring the most well known interpretation of the concept...that Jean just got stronger.

Again, he didn’t come up with that concept. He is merely the one who got to write it. And unlike the consumers, those creating Marvel’s other media properties like the movies, cartoons, and video games all have follow Marvel’s ruling about how they want their characters portrayed. And this concept of Jean having the Phoenix did not occur in the cartoon, until the very end of the show in 2003, the perfect timeframe for them to have knowledge about Marvel’s current mindset about Jean and Phoenix’ relationship.

You forget that also around this time, the Ultimate Comics were a thing, in which the Phoenix was already inside Jean Grey and they were milking the mystery of whether it was figment off Jean’s imagination, an expression of her ultimate potential, or a literal evil entity plaguing Jean’s mental stability by at least 2002.

If we are to assume that stories are told months to years in advanced like they are today from how Hickman’s Krakoa era was run, than it would be logical to assume that this was true of back then as well and that even though we did not know it at the time, they had already decided the Phoenix would be a thing inside Jean Grey already by the time we see her after the 90’s ended.

7) “My problem with everything your saying is that you pulled out of thin air that it was inside her.

Except I didn’t. You know clearly that I’m drawing this conclusion because Jean just conjured a Raptor mid-battle. It’s an assumption based on the mindset of writing at the time and by the insinuation that Jean just called upon the Phoenix.

Now, you mentioned before that you don’t think it is a Phoenix shape, but you never offer what else it could be in exchange. It certainly isn‘t the same shield she had when she first created it, which was clearly inspired by medieval shields initially before it started growing.

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After she starts unleashing her final attack, it matches none of the shield designs from any shield I have ever seen, where the two tips rise so far apart and separate into jagged edges.

8) “Your ignoring that it would be the realization of Jeans only plot throughout the show, and saying that it instead is them introducing a new concept at the end of the series and never touching on it again.”

That’s what happens when a show is canceled. They don’t get an opportunity to explore the narrative further because it was canceled. And we have express confirmation that if the show had ever gotten a 5th season, they would have delved into the Dark Phoenix Saga.

9) “Which of the Universes prior to 2003 used that concept?

Because i can point out 100 examples in fiction of the "heroic second wind" trope that line up perfectly with the running plot of Jeans powers growing.”

As mentioned before, the Ultimate Universe comes to mind first. The earliest I can think of was issue 22 or 23 back in the early 2002, where Jean has a mental breakdown from the visions of the Phoenix that put her in the mental hospital.

What If……..? #37 is another, where Jean summons the Phoenix Force from nowhere to defeat Goblin Queen and Dormmamu. This comic came out in 1982.

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What If……? #77, Jean Grey scolds Charles Xavier about the last time she was an X-Man nearly ending with her almost killing the X-Men and mincing Mastermind’s brain like she did in the Dark Phoenix Saga. Later, we see her using the powers of the Phoenix to try to save Xavier. This comic came out in 1995.

(By the way, this Jean Grey and Cyclops are low-key insane, since she literally caused thousands of deaths in an attempt to kill Apocalypse’s forces and yet she goes on a monologue later about how humanity has turned on mutants despite what she was willing to do for his dream…..as if Xavier meant to kill thousands for the sake of a few dangerous mutants. The comic never treats her or Scott as absolutely bonkers, but rather as heroes instead for literally putting a hole in Washington D.C. where everyone caught in the blast died and cosmic fires raged months later in the area)

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I am not sure how strict we are being with the prior to 2003 rule, but X2 came out exactly in May of 2003.

10) “it's a "marvel cartoon" doesn't mean anything. Spiderman TAS doesn't have Gwen Stacy. The Avengers don't exist in the 90s verse either. Norman Osbourne doesn't exist in the MCU.

Again, wrong application.

I said, if we see the Baxter Building, then we can probably presume the F4 exist as a Marvel reference. It‘s the same concept as seeing the Avengers tower in Spider-Man PS4, despite never actually seeing a single Avenger in the game.

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If I don’t see a reference relating to Gwen Stacy, I’m not assuming she exists. If I’m not seeing any sign of the Avengers, I’m not assuming they exist by virtue of a Marvel property. An Easter Egg or reference was explicitly put their as an allusion to a Marvel property, so it’s easy to assume that in some shape or form, they exist in that self-contained world.

In that same aspect, Jean conjures a Phoenix shaped attack at Xavier. I am assuming she is connected to the Phoenix in that universe. I’m not looking at Red Queen Jean Grey in X-Man and assuming she is using the powers of the Phoenix. There was a context clue in the fight and it was the conclusion I drew based on what I saw.

11) “Their are things called Easter eggs and shout outs.

Yes, I know. They also can have narrative significance as much as they can foreshadow future plot points. In fact, some of the better shows do this very often.

12) “What your doing is something that leads to the spread of massive misinformation by assuming your interpretation of an event is foreshadowing something based on information never presented and ignoring the evidence and what we are explicitly told.”

We are never told anything. So mentioning what we are told is moot. Xavier does say Jean’s powers are growing, but we also should keep in mind Charles Xavier is not the most reliable narrator when it comes to the Phoenix.

Again, how many times have we had stories of Charles Xavier completely missing the Phoenix Force inside Jean’s head and assuming it was just Jean’s growing power?

And when it comes to matters of the Phoenix Force, I can at the very least say that Charles Xavier is not to be trusted in most anything regarding it beyond that it is a dangerous force.

13) “If you watched X-Men Apocalypse and said that the Phoenix Force exist because she tapped into more power to defeat Apocalypse and completely ignored that Last Stand established her own growing power to be the cause of her strength you would STILL be wrong even if X-Men Dark Phoenix confirmed your belief because you used faulty logic and outside information to make an assumption.”

That’s not what I said. I said to Marvelfan,

”I don’t think that is the case though. Jean would have no clue about the Phoenix at this age and nowhere in the show was she ever alerted of its existence.

So, for Jean to instinctively form a Phoenix for no reason in-character would be far too coincidental for it to just not be insider of her, unless we run on Hope Summers logic.

If the producers wanted an Easter egg, they would have simply stuck with the vision at the end instead of showing her conjure a Phoenix out-of-nowhere and just have Jean do a final attack on the initial battle. No Phoenix shield. Just a psychic blast that works.”

I said to you,

“The issue with your skepticism here is that you are basically saying its either entirely coincidence that Jean’s shield takes the shape two wings or that it is just my own self-perception…..

My statement of the Phoenix always being there in Evo Jean is not because it was hinted at in “Power Surge”. I stated as much because it suddenly appears in “Ascension II“ mid-battle with no explanation of how it got inside Jean to begin with. My presumption is that it was always there because they never elaborate on how it’s possible that Jean suddenly forms a Phoenix shape with no explanation of why..…….”

Not to mention the absolute biggest issue with your assertion that “because Xavier tells us it’s not Phoenix, it can’t be Phoenix” is that as a fellow psychic, the Phoenix Force is fully capable of concealing its presence by just laying dormant in Jean‘s mind. A matter I allude to you,

”Just because the Phoenix doesn’t pop up in “Power Surge”, doesn’t mean it isn’t there somewhere in Jean’s mind”

How many stories have you read where telepaths completely miss psi’s of great powers lying dormant in the heads of other psychics like Cassandra Nova, Shadow King, Onslaught, Emma Frost, Mister Sinister, and even Jean herself? Even purely as a hypothetical, it is not far off to assume the Phoenix would be lying in Jean’s body for no other reason aside from it or Jean not being at their top power levels. Especially since when they decide to drop an Easter Egg out of nowhere alluding exactly to the Phoenix.

14) “This is where your at now. You CANNOT add headcanon to your reasoning and present it as fact otherwise I can just say that Jean using Phoenix raptors during Revolution is her tapping the Phoenix force because she eventually does that somewhere down the line in Morrisons run.

As I said before, they are not the same thing. And even if I am wrong, this doesn’t change the outcome of the battle in the slightest. What exactly is your goal of convincing me of something that would not tip the battle one way or the other based on whether I am right or wrong?