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#101 Posted by Zuriel-el (2945 posts) - - Show Bio

Diana without phoenix, jean with phoenix.

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#102 Posted by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean wins because she can just use TK to hold WW in place and can just mindrape her. It's over just like that.

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On topic:

No Phoenix: Wonder Woman one-shots Jean in a blitz.

Phoenix: Jean obviously wins(except we would just create a theoretical full control Godwave WW XD).

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#103 Posted by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn:

Well, back on topic, Jean gets stomped without Phoenix and stomps with the Phoenix.

Fixed that for ya.

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#104 Edited by thebuckaronatr (1727 posts) - - Show Bio

Standart Jean vs Diana, seriously? Diana obviously destroys her effortlesly.

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#105 Posted by Tedirey (2460 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix wins pretty much over non-cosmic heroes anyway. So she would stomp.

But if this is regular Jean, Diana KOes without much effort.

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#106 Edited by thebuckaronatr (1727 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhysdurden said:

to hold WW in place and can just mindrape her. It's over just like that.

Sounds good, but let us first ask Maxwell who actually tried that:

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Well i am not entirely sure what he means:

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Oh whoops, i think he said very baaad idea.....

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#107 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

@tedirey said:

Phoenix wins pretty much over non-cosmic heroes anyway.

Depends on whatever counts as 'cosmic', since that term doesn't really exist in DC while a god there tends to be a bit more than they are in Marvel.

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#108 Posted by bowlt_swagg_320 (2232 posts) - - Show Bio

Diana without phoenix, jean with phoenix.

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#109 Edited by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: Can I have some evidence that the way Diana reacts is something similar to a speedster like I've seen for Supes? Blocking bullets and lightning won't work in a fight where the opponent has a similar reaction timing and with her powers working with just single thought.

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#110 Edited by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebuckaronatr: Fo you have any evidence of Diana having superior thinking speed like a speedster?

Also, how strong of a telepath is Maxwell? What kind of experience does he have with his powers? How powerful is he?

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#111 Posted by gunchar16 (1685 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengance_gambit: WW speedblitzes Jean without even trying, except Jean has Phoenix Force then would she of course stomp.

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#112 Edited by deactivated-5bb52f8f25413 (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: do you even know that Jean's original mutant powers are telekinesis and telepathy? It's not powers from the Phoenix Force...anyway Jean's telepathy (even without the Phoenix Force) could surpass the level of Charles Xavier's but Xavier places mental blocks and suppressed her telepathy so that she could control her mutant powers properly. When Xavier took the mental blocks off, Jean is able to mindrape Juggernaut with his helmet on (a feat Xavier or Emma Frost are unable to do). Then later on in her history, she proved to be able to use her powers at the speed of thought and travel in hyperspace with a airtight telekinesis shield that tanked Binary's full-power and yet still have enough energy to use her telepathy so precise so as not to kill Binary.

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#113 Posted by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn said:

@itachus17: Can I have some evidence that the way Diana reacts is something similar to a speedster like I've seen for Supes? Blocking bullets and lightning won't work in a fight where the opponent has a similar reaction timing and with her powers working with just single thought.

Why would you even want to see reaction feats, here are some:

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It's actually light:

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Wonder Woman can just blitz her:

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So she would need to be faster than thought huh:

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#114 Posted by TheVoidofDeath (2131 posts) - - Show Bio

No phoenix? Diana is way to freaking fast .

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#115 Edited by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhysdurden:

do you even know that Jean's original mutant powers are telekinesis and telepathy?

Yeah i know, she has literally the worst possible main ability to fight Wonder Woman...

Just as a hint: Diana was for a damn good reason the hax tank of the JL in PC(she was basically made to fight Ares: Reality Warper, Telepath, Magician, etc...).

Then later on in her history, she proved to be able to use her powers at the speed of thought and travel in hyperspace with a airtight telekinesis shield that tanked Binary's full-power and yet still have enough energy to use her telepathy so precise so as not to kill Binary.

That wouldn't help her at all, and btw. WW is faster than thought:

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It's still the same result, WW blitzes the shit out of no Phoenix Jean(especially if she's stupid enough to try TP).

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#116 Posted by deactivated-5bb52f8f25413 (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: I thought Barry Allen is the only one who is faster than the speed of thought...anyway I can see still Jean winning here though, she's dealt with beings much more powerful than WW like Onslaught.

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#117 Edited by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhysdurden said:

@itachus17: I thought Barry Allen is the only one who is faster than the speed of thought...anyway I can see still Jean winning here though, she's dealt with beings much more powerful than WW like Onslaught.

Not in PC(with Wally as Flash, who is much faster than Barry).

Whooot when has standart Jean beaten Onslaught, and especially how?

Cause i'm pretty sure it must have had context, and with such has WW also dealt with much more powerful beings(like Ares and other Gods).

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#118 Edited by deactivated-5bb52f8f25413 (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: Wait what? Wally is faster than Barry? From what I know, Barry is the fastest Flash and the fastest man alive so how could Wally be faster than him? I mean even in New 52 and Rebirth Barry is faster than Wally. And for Onslaught, Onslaught is much stronger than Ares and Jean has nearly defeated him. It's a story where Franklin Richards got kidnapped by Onslaught and earth's heroes must get together to stop Onslaught...

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#119 Posted by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: Blitzing would only work against Jean if the user perceives things and thinks things faster than a normal woman. Jean herself is already impressive with her reaction speed, making it plausible that the slightest movement have her at a quick draw.

With that said, after looking at the scan of Wondereoman moving faster than thought, I concede.

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#120 Posted by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: Although I concede to Jean losing in a fight of speed, I want to talk more on the telepathy resistance. What makes Wonder Woman's psionic defenses so dangerous? What is the nature of her experience with telepaths? Is it natural? Is it something she has to be active about? Whose the most powerful telepath she has resisted? What is that telepaths highest feat? And finally how are they in psionic combat and/or sneaking into a persons mind?

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#121 Posted by Yarva (2937 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: I thought Barry Allen is the only one who is faster than the speed of thought...anyway I can see still Jean winning here though, she's dealt with beings much more powerful than WW like Onslaught.

Every Flash is faster than thought. Unless we're talking about people like Superman, Martian Man hunter, Green Lantern or Wonder Woman.

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#122 Edited by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhysdurden:

Wait what? Wally is faster than Barry? From what I know, Barry is the fastest Flash and the fastest man alive so how could Wally be faster than him?

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Who told you such nonsense?

Wally was clearly much faster than Barry, and Zoom for example was even significantly faster than Wally(let alone Barry).

I mean even in New 52 and Rebirth Barry is faster than Wally.

Ahhhh ok that makes your confusion understandable, Barry is just in N52 and Rebirth faster than Wally.

But PC Wally is much faster than Barry and New52/Rebirth Wally together.

And for Onslaught, Onslaught is much stronger than Ares and Jean has nearly defeated him.

Hell no PC Ares is a completely different caliber(i guess you're confusing it with New52 again), and how exactly has Jean even beaten him?

It's a story where Franklin Richards got kidnapped by Onslaught and earth's heroes must get together to stop Onslaught...

That sounds like a massive Outlier/PIS then, or are you actually talking about Jean with Phoenix?

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#123 Posted by deactivated-5bb52f8f25413 (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: no, there is no Phoenix Force when Onslaught first appeared, there was only Jean Grey.

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#124 Edited by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn said:

@itachus17: Blitzing would only work against Jean if the user perceives things and thinks things faster than a normal woman. Jean herself is already impressive with her reaction speed, making it plausible that the slightest movement have her at a quick draw.

With that said, after looking at the scan of Wondereoman moving faster than thought, I concede.

Ok.

@pyrofn said:

@itachus17: Although I concede to Jean losing in a fight of speed, I want to talk more on the telepathy resistance. What makes Wonder Woman's psionic defenses so dangerous? What is the nature of her experience with telepaths? Is it natural? Is it something she has to be active about? Whose the most powerful telepath she has resisted? What is that telepaths highest feat? And finally how are they in psionic combat and/or sneaking into a persons mind?

Her defense came at first due to her empowerment by the Gods, but got later amped:

She was literally the Goddess of Truth, and kept basically the godly Truth-Power(i know that sounds a bit cringy, but is a main reason for Diana's immense hax resistence in PC) from that. So it is basically natural, and needs clearly no activation.

She resisted several Telepaths(2 of her main Enemies are Telepaths: Dr. Psycho and especially Ares), Maxwell Lord(planet lvl Telepath) for example, someone posted already how he easily mindraped Superman(pretty good TP resistence in PC) and tried the same with her.

The strongest is hard to pick, but probably Ares 117 days mindrape attack(he used Reality Warping to screw with the time in his realm, but it were literally 117 days for her due to that). Diana herself has actually also feats for psionic combat(in the mind of Wondergirl, against Deva), due to her Morphing Disk.

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#125 Posted by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: no, there is no Phoenix Force when Onslaught first appeared, there was only Jean Grey.

Ok then how exactly?

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#126 Edited by Mooty_Pass (9597 posts) - - Show Bio

When it comes to TP resistance I find that WW is very inconsistent. One minute she fends off TP the next she doesn't and she succumbs to it. Now in stats WW has Jean beat: Strength, Speed, Durability, Reaction, Combat the works. However, Jean Grey has a few hax and power that can efficiently help her beat Diana. Jean's TK will most definitely protect her from WW assault. Jeans TP will also be a huge helpful in this fight. Now people are saying WW will blitz her....yes that's true, but how many times has WW blitzed a regular human she doesn't know?(imo) I wouldn't bank on a blitz what WW needs to worry about is avoiding getting her brain shut down or her body seized and controlled by Jean's TK ability. Or mind wiped etc. All Jeans hax abilities because IF she pulls off just one of these hax powers I mentioned? WW will lose. Now If memory serves me right I remember Jean used TK and took over Sabertooths body. Anyhow

I'm not exactly sure who is the definitive winner is because I can see both ladies beating the other. However, let's not count Jean out because she has no Phoenix she is still a dangerous mutant without it.

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#127 Posted by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormphoenix:

When it comes to TP resistance I find that WW is very inconsistent. One minute she fends off TP the next she doesn't and she succumbs to it.

Uhm no, PC Diana was very consistent with that(especially after her time as Goddess of Truth).

However, Jean Grey has a few hax and power that can efficiently help her beat Diana.

Not very much, and anyways just if WW hard jobs.

Jean's TK will most definitely protect her from WW assault.

Not rly.

Jeans TP will also be a huge helpful in this fight.

Not the slightest bit.

Now people are saying WW will blitz her....yes that's true,

Yep.

but how many times has WW blitzed a regular human she doesn't know?(imo)

She blitzed douzens of opponents, and the post of the TS is deleted(so we have no clue about the exact scenario).

I wouldn't bank on a blitz

I would, especially if Jean starts with TP for example.

what WW needs to worry about is avoiding getting her brain shut down

Nope.

or her body seized and controlled by Jean's TK ability.

Depends, but again just if Diana jobs.

Or mind wiped etc.

Still not the slightest bit.

All Jeans hax abilities because IF she pulls off just one of these hax powers I mentioned? WW will lose

Considering that the majority not even works at all on WW, not rly...

Now If memory serves me right I remember Jean used TK and took over Sabertooths body. Anyhow

I don't think we should drift in that direction, Diana had a freaking low lvl Reality Warping lasso and literally turned the moon into cheese.

I'm not exactly sure who is the definitive winner is because I can see both ladies beating the other.

Considering that Jeans only chance to win is that Diana hard jobs and forgets about all her hax resistences, well... it's pretty obviously who wins.

However, let's not count Jean out because she has no Phoenix she is still a dangerous mutant without it.

I count Jane out cause WW is way out of her league and one of the worst match ups possible for her, still the hax tank of the JL in PC.

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#128 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (9040 posts) - - Show Bio

jean grey for obvious reasons LOL........jean grey fan

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#129 Edited by Mooty_Pass (9597 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: You do know AFTER the fight PC WW had with Maxwell Lord he got a power up and erased her mind and the rest of the JL right? Not to mention MMH has done so before before. So yes TP will help. Saying WW blitz dozens of opponents doesn't exactly mean she will do the same to a human. The only hax that will work on Diana is getting her brain turned off and her body controlled via TK that much for sure.

Now to compare Reality Warping to body snatching via TK isn't a good counter or comparison. Sure Jean may be out of her league a bit, but Considering some advantages Jean has over Diana that Diana herself can't counter I can see Jean taking a win. Doesn't mean Jean wins majority just means Jean has ways to beat WW.

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#130 Posted by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: I've heard of some mention of Psycho in the Raven vs Jean thread. Needless to say, I wasn't very enlightened with how skilled he was as a telepath.

Ares is a good one in power theoretically when considering him being a god, that alone won't put him above Jean. What is his experience in psionics? What does he use his telepathy for?

Maxwell didn't look too impressive which is why I asked for clarification on Maxwells telepathic prowess and power.

Make no mistake, barring cosmic entities, Jean is one of the most powerful telepathic superheroes in Marvel, if not the most powerful. She gained the title of most powerful telepath when Xavier lost his psychic powers and Xavier wasn't referred to as such even after he hit his powers. This is why I'm gonna try to compare telepaths in power and skill, since this is the best way to determine how Wonder Woman stacks up. Jean Grey won't crumple and fall from being overwhelmed at the site of a resisting mind like Maxwell seems to be doing.(In spite of how the animated series portrayed her)

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#131 Edited by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn:

I've heard of some mention of Psycho in the Raven vs Jean thread. Needless to say, I wasn't very enlightened with how skilled he was as a telepath.

He was pretty weak at first, but much stronger later on(could travel into alternate timelines and dimensions/universes with his mind).

Ares is a good one in power theoretically when considering him being a god, that alone won't put him above Jean. What is his experience in psionics? What does he use his telepathy for?

PC Ares was Skyfather lvl and used TP,Reality Warping, Magic, etc... for literally everything. Well his experience are at the very least ten thousands of years with TP, mind raping countless people, creatures, some other gods, demons, etc..., also is he of course the God of War(and Death actually) and had thus a telephatic connection to any warrior, is able to cast insane illusions and can even materilize them if he want. In short: He would literally godstomp Martian Manhunter(i guess you know how good he is?) in that regard.

Maxwell didn't look too impressive which is why I asked for clarification on Maxwells telepathic prowess and power.

To easily mindrape PC Superman is actually pretty impressive, and like mentioned is he anyways planet lvl(as undead Black Lantern mindraped he even the dead XD).

Make no mistake, barring cosmic entities, Jean is one of the most powerful telepathic superheroes in Marvel, if not the most powerful. She gained the title of most powerful telepath when Xavier lost his psychic powers and Xavier wasn't referred to as such even after he hit his powers.

Well Ares is pretty clearly stronger than Jean, and you also exaggerates standart Jean here.

This is why I'm gonna try to compare telepaths in power and skill, since this is the best way to determine how Wonder Woman stacks up.

Well her TP resistence is literally Godlike.

Jean Grey won't crumple and fall from being overwhelmed at the site of a resisting mind like Maxwell seems to be doing.(In spite of how the animated series portrayed her)

Hmmmmm? Uhm Diana snapped his neck physically XD.

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#132 Posted by destinyman75 (13604 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean is a glass cannon, one shot it's over period. Jeans TP isn't enough to compensate for Diana's resistancespeed skill and strength combined Phoenix obviously but not Jean

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#133 Edited by Itachus17 (3232 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormphoenix:

u do know AFTER the fight PC WW had with Maxwell Lord he got a power up and erased her mind and the rest of the JL right?

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The only thing the dead Maxwell Lord did involving her was to become an undead Black Lantern, and then turning WW into a Black Lantern...

After that was she a Star Sapphire, which would turn this fight into an even worse stomp.

And last but not least got he revived and sended the Omacs especially Prime, with the target Wonder Woman(guess why?).

Not to mention MMH has done so before before.

True that was the only rly notable outlier in PC, which is why i said very consistent and not perfectly.

So yes TP will help.

So cause of 1 outlier and something that didn't happened?

Hell no it will do not.

Saying WW blitz dozens of opponents doesn't exactly mean she will do the same to a human.

First of all is Jean not rly just a human, second looked several of the guys she blitzed also like human(and some were actually human).

Last but not least, your whole argument is Diana's will maybe job...

The only hax that will work on Diana is getting her brain turned off and her body controlled via TK that much for sure.

Highly debatable.

Now to compare Reality Warping to body snatching via TK isn't a good counter or comparison.

Considering how much more powerful reality warping is, would i strongly disagree. Also resistence against magic and several other things.

Sure Jean may be out of her league a bit

Change a bit to far and we can start to talk.

but Considering some advantages Jean has over Diana

Very short list, especially in comparisons to her disadvantages.

that Diana herself can't counter

Still highly debatable.

I can see Jean taking a win.

If Diana is jobbing sure, but not in a serious fight(which excludes things like she thinks Jean is just an average human).

Doesn't mean Jean wins majority just means Jean has ways to beat WW.

That is not nearly enough to be an actual match in a serious fight.

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#134 Posted by BabyDarkseid (1907 posts) - - Show Bio

WW

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#135 Posted by JasonBourne_ (434 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean dies bc she's a glass chin and not in Phoenix form.

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#136 Posted by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: Interesting stuff. Alright I concede to them being real powerful, though Jean has faced people on that level, losing, but holding her own while holding back before losing. Probably could've been different if she hadn't held back. The people I speak of is blocking a shot from the stranger with ease, fighting Onslaught during a time she was holding back her power (she lost, but again, she held her own while holding back), and one-shorting Phoenix Emma.

I heard that Superman was very good in resisting telepaths, but I've not any knowledge on these defenses.

Not saying she mindrapes Diana, but don't underestimate Jean. She is literally more powerful than Xavier without Phoenix due to her omega level status. After training with Xavier, she had become pretty much as skilled as he before she became Phoenix and.....died and.....staying dead to this day. -_-

Anyways, evidence on how powerful and skilled she is:

•Xavier admitting to Jeans potential in the first scan and calling her one of the most powerful beings on the planet in the second

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/3/30174/5775111-l29sji5.jpg

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30174/5775109-lgy60mn.jpg

•Beast confirming the seemingly Phoenix like power to be all Jean in Morrisons New X-Men run. The fiery displays were mere displays of her power at their great potential, potential that scared Scott and the rest of her teammates.

https://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30174/5775110-eojzp83.jpg

•Having a feat deemed impossible to Xavier

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/30174/3228008-new128p04.jpg

•One of the most powerful psions on the planet.

http://www.animanga.com/comics/j+s/xforce-55.jpg

•Most gifted psychic Emma Frost has ever encountered.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/97919/2054074-928275_emma_the_cabal_jean_super.jpg

I can get scans to back up these claims showing her power, but I that wouldn't serve much since it's already decided that there is little Jean can do in a match up against Wonder Woman.

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#137 Posted by Mooty_Pass (9597 posts) - - Show Bio

u do know AFTER the fight PC WW had with Maxwell Lord he got a power up and erased her mind and the rest of the JL right?

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OK, so going by your response I'm going to ask you to go read the Comic.

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And here is proof of WW not remembering snapping Max's Neck as well as other Heroes not remembering the past events as well.

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True that was the only rly notable outlier in PC, which is why i said very consistent and not perfectly.

Outlier? Not so sure we have proof of PC WW getting her mind wiped by a amped Maxwell Lord. And as you admitted MMH mind wiped her pretty easy there's reason to say. IF you are a powerful Telepath you can affect WW.

But here 2 Examples or should I say two instances of MMH mind wiping WW for the Public to see.

1.

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And then there's this instance:

2.

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ALL in ALL i'm saying is this IF you are a Powerful Telepath(Jean Grey, Martian Manhunter etc) you can affect WW. True WW does have a good TP resistance, but i'm sure Jean will get past those defenses.

So cause of 1 outlier and something that didn't happened?

Hell no it will do not.

Yes, it will see previous scans posted above.

First of all is Jean not rly just a human,

Your joking right?

second looked several of the guys she blitzed also like human(and some were actually human).

Can you post those scans please.

Last but not least, your whole argument is Diana's will maybe job...

that's not my argument at all.

Highly debatable.

Where debating about it now. Can you present the scans of WW resisting having her Brain turned off Like such:

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Considering how much more powerful reality warping is, would i strongly disagree. Also resistence against magic and several other things.

My reason for calling it a bad comparison is because that's not what WW is facing. You have to show WW resisting her body being controlled via TK. Now if not then I have reason to say it will work.

Reality Warping is an entirely different power set.

Here Jean uses TK to rip someone apart.

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Here Jean toys with Sabertooths body via TK:

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And that's not all there a MORE. I have a scan where Jean can cause a Blood Clot in a persons body. So yes these Hax powers Jean has will surley work on WW. UNLESS you can prove and counter these Hax.

Very short list, especially in comparisons to her disadvantages.

Yes, but i'll wait for your counters for them.

Still highly debatable.

Were debating them now. Are you able to provide Counter scans for these Hax abilities.

If Diana is jobbing sure, but not in a serious fight(which excludes things like she thinks Jean is just an average human).

The OP never specified the details so at this point EVERYONE is just saying Diana wins without considering what Jean can actually do or her advantages. We can assume that Diana knows about Jean, but then again we can also assume Diana knows nothing about Jean. Vice Versa for Jean.

That is not nearly enough to be an actual match in a serious fight.

Actually it is. Because if Jean was serisous enough she can drop Diana just as fast as Diana dropping Jean.

So again let's NOT act like Jean isn't powerful without the Phoenix because she is very much a threat without it. That's All.

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#138 Posted by deactivated-5bb52f8f25413 (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: this is from Wikipedia:

Preparing for Onslaught

In Bishop's original timeline before he ends up in the present he finds the X-Men's war room and finds a garbled distress signal from Jean about a traitor destroying the X-Men from within. Meanwhile in the present, the X-Men begin to hear increasing news about a malevolent entity called Onslaught. Jean first sees Onslaught as a psionic image with the rest of the X-Men after Onslaught coerces Gateway to kidnap Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm, and Iceman. He later appears to her again in a similar way after rescuing her and Gambit from Bastion and offers her a chance to join him. Onslaught makes his first full appearance to Jean on the astral plane and shows her how humanity is closing in on mutants as well as revealing that Xavier was in love with her while she was a student to convince her to join him. He then telepathically brands his name to her mind when she refused and asks him his name. When Juggernaut comes to the mansion with information about Onslaught's true identity but has a mental block preventing him from divulging it, Jean enters his mind and helps him to remember who Onslaught really is and to her horror she discovers that Onslaught is really Professor X, having gone insane ever since wiping Magneto's mind.

Arrival of Onslaught

Professor Xavier calls the X-Men together for a meeting and Jean tries unsuccessfully to rally the X-Men against him before he manifests Onslaught. While Onslaught easily overtakes the rest of the X-Men, Jean escapes to the war room and sends out the distress signal that Bishop found in the future. After a massive battle against Jean and the rest of the X-Men, Onslaught escapes to carry out his plans. After Onslaught nearly kills the X-Men they team up with the Avengers to make a plan to stop him, knowing full well that it may come down to them killing Xavier if the world is to survive. Jean accompanies Cyclops, Archangel, and Psylocke to Muire Island where they and Moira McTaggart discover the Xavier Protocols, secret plans that Xavier made to kill any of the individual X-Men should anyone become a threat against the world. Meanwhile Jean's earlier distress signal makes it to X-Factor, Excalibur, and X-Force.After returning to New York, Jean works closely with Reed Richards to help build up defenses against Onslaught as well as to help create the psionic armor that could block Xavier's telepathic powers as seen in the Xavier Protocols. When Jean senses that Xavier has been freed from Onslaught and is going to confront him on his own, she and Cyclops bring together the rest of the X-Men to back him up. The rest of the Avengers and Fantastic Four join them in a final stand against Onslaught before he completely destroys the world. In a final act of desperation Jean finds Hulk and locks away Bruce Banner's mind, leaving only the Hulk in control so he can fight Onslaught unencumbered. With the vast majority of earth's heroes missing and assumed dead after Onslaught is finally defeated, Jean and Cyclops open their home to Quicksilver and his daughter and try to help the X-Men to get their lives get back together.

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#139 Posted by thebuckaronatr (1727 posts) - - Show Bio

What is this bullshit here, Pre Flashpoint Diana resisted in the past consistently Telepaths as strong and stronger than Jean. A few PIS low showings in 25 years do not change that at all, let alone the gigantic speed difference between Jean and Diana.

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#141 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (6745 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean's glass jaw will be protected by her tk shields that have stood up to planet busters. Jean's telepathy is leagues above some of these DC telepaths being mentioned. Resistance is not immunity. Jean has consistently overcome telepathic immunity whether it was magical, artificial or natural with relative ease. The speed Gap is purely physical. Physical reactions are not needed when you don't have to physically move. In Marvel thought is faster than light. Telepaths have proven that their thought processes are faster than normal each time they read and organize the thoughts of billions in seconds. They show the speed of there thought each time they instantaneously touch a mind over vast distances. Jean's shields have blocked light attacks after being fired. This is not a sneak attack they are standing face to face aware of each other. WW first thought in character will not to be to use a blitz attack. Jean however is a consistent shielder.

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#142 Edited by Helloman (26972 posts) - - Show Bio

WW wins.

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#143 Posted by thebuckaronatr (1727 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn:

: Fo you have any evidence of Diana having superior thinking speed like a speedster?

How do you think can she react, move and fight that fast?

Also, how strong of a telepath is Maxwell? What kind of experience does he have with his powers? How powerful is he?

He is at that point already very powerful, but later on beacame he completely broken and just changed history. But that was much more that just tp, so it is not really relevant here.

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#144 Edited by thebuckaronatr (1727 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

Jean's glass jaw will be protected by her tk shields that have stood up to planet busters.

If Diana for whatever reason not just speedblitzes, would she simply lasso Jean then.

Jean's telepathy is leagues above some of these DC telepaths being mentioned.

The ones i have seen were: J'onn, Maxwell, and Ares, Jean is not above any of these.

Resistance is not immunity.

Dianas resistance is on a lvl that we can almost talk about immunity without PIS.

Jean has consistently overcome telepathic immunity whether it was magical, artificial or natural with relative ease.

That is not possible, except you uses immunity as another word for resistence. And considering that you made a distinction between both, do we both know that is not the case. So Jean has never overcome any immunity but just resistance.

The speed Gap is purely physical.

No the speed gap exists mentally and physically.

Physical reactions are not needed when you don't have to physically move.

That is irrelevant in this case.

In Marvel thought is faster than light.

That is great, but Diana is faster than thought as someone already posted.

Telepaths have proven that their thought processes are faster than normal each time they read and organize the thoughts of billions in seconds

Great and when has Jean proven that she can react to the speed of Diana?

They show the speed of there thought each time they instantaneously touch a mind over vast distances.

Are you seriously try to claim travel speed for thoughts here?

Jean's shields have blocked light attacks after being fired

So her shields are slower than lightspeed, good to know.

his is not a sneak attack they are standing face to face aware of each other.

Yeah that is the reason why Jean even less chance has.

WW first thought in character will not to be to use a blitz attack. Jean however is a consistent shielder.

So you decides what Dianas first thought will be?

Diana is also a consistent blitzer and it is even part of her fighting style, but i do not see how all this even relevant is. Jean will without any doubt lose this fight, except it happens in a fan voting contest comic like that garbage with Ororo maybe.....

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#145 Posted by Yarva (2937 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a tough one to decide. On one hand Jean might be able to at least slow WW down with her telepathy and tk. On the other hand WW might be able to fight the tp and tk off and one shot Jean.

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#146 Posted by Zokologue (336 posts) - - Show Bio
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I' surprised that nobody posted "ends in sex", yet

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#147 Posted by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebuckaronatr: •"How do you think she can move that fast or fight that fast?"

Someone already addressed to me that Wonder Woman reacts faster than normal human thought much like Superman and Flash. The speed of thought is how fast Jeans power activates.

https://vk.com/photo-125124990_456241999

The slightest movement, she fires or protects. It's how she can react to bullets and lasers point-blank.

2) Maxwell: Ok. How skilled is he against psychic defenses and telepaths of his caliber?

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#148 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (6745 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebuckaronatr:

f Diana for whatever reason not just speedblitzes, would she simply lasso Jean then.

She'd lasso her tk shield. Her lasso is now immune to tk?

The ones i have seen were: J'onn, Maxwell, and Ares, Jean is not above any of these.

Prove it. Jean has telepathically contained the Phoenix and beat Emma Frost with the Phoenix. She's the most powerful telepath on Earth prior to her death.

Dianas resistance is on a lvl that we can almost talk about immunity without PIS.

Almost doesn't count. Jean's feats against immunity and resistance are consistent and not PIS.

That is not possible, except you uses immunity as another word for resistence. And considering that you made a distinction between both, do we both know that is not the case. So Jean has never overcome any immunity but just resistance.

The examples of her overcoming immunity are directly related to the aforementioned forms all being immune to every telepath they have encountered. Those forms of protection are still immune to other telepaths. Jean has reduced them to resistance to her telepathy. WW has never been immune to tp, only resistance. Therefore Jean won't have problems with her mind based on her feats against both resistant and "immune" minds.

No the speed gap exists mentally and physically.

It's purely physical because the rate at which WW thinks is only a problem if the telepath is trying to read and decipher thoughts, which is not how a telepathic attack works. Further more Jean has instantly learned and taught telepathically, so her mind can handle fast thinking.

That is irrelevant in this case.

It most certainly is because there is not delay. To physically move you think then you move then reality is affected. In the case of a telekinetic you just think and reality is affected.

That is great, but Diana is faster than thought as someone already posted.

Moving faster than thought has been mentioned in favor for WW. If Marvel thought is faster than light, being faster than thought doesn't matter unless you're saying WW will be moving faster than light in this battle.

Are you seriously try to claim travel speed for thoughts here?

Telepaths in Marvel frequently send their minds and thoughts to travel to other locations and minds. So telepathic thoughts do have travel time, it's instant like teleporting.

So her shields are slower than lightspeed, good to know.

Stop being obtuse. Light travels at the speed of light. A light attack has to fired to be an attack. If the light attack hits Jean's shields andNot Jean that means that her mind and thus her powers can handle a light speed attack.

Yeah that is the reason why Jean even less chance has.

This makes no sense. If we are standing across from each other and you need to think and move to hit me and all I need to do is think to hit you, you're not hitting me first

So you decides what Dianas first thought will be?

Diana is also a consistent blitzer and it is even part of her fighting style, but i do not see how all this even relevant is. Jean will without any doubt lose this fight, except it happens in a fan voting contest comic like that garbage with Ororo maybe.....

So in every fight in character WW speed blitzed all opponents? WW has powers that make impossible for Storms base powers to harm her, she however does not have the same protections from Jean's base power. You only have shown resistance feats with Jean having feats against resistance so strong it was called immunity. Diana is not immune to telepathy or telekinesis the way she would be nearly immune to lightning bolts.

Point is WW is not stomping Jean, because you have not proved that she can just tank Jean's psionic attacks, while I've proven and given feats 2 years ago that say her mind will not be protected from Jean.

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#149 Edited by deactivated-5bb52f8f25413 (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

@yarva: WW is not strong enough to fight Jean's TK and TP. I'm pretty sure that WW can't even break Jean's telekinetic shields.

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#150 Posted by Yarva (2937 posts) - - Show Bio

@yarva: WW is not strong enough to fight Jean's TK and TP. I'm pretty sure that WW can't even break Jean's telekinetic shields.

Not even with her sword or striking power?