Jean Grey vs Professor X

@hopesummersforthefuture: Xavier is an omega class telepath, a term used by Emma to describe telepaths of Xavier’s caliber. As a mutant, like Magneto, Xavier is an alpha level mutant, apparently meaning a set of powerful mutants.

From my understanding, alpha level mutants power levels come more with experience and hard work rather than naturally, unlike omegas who can freely push their limits and achieve things seemingly impossible. That’s my understanding at least.

@pyrofn: Yes it is true that Jean's power will hold nothing back but have you remembered how Scarlet witch combined her own powers of bending reality with

Charles telepathic ablities to make a new world i.e house of m

Well It might not be the same scale of power that Charles has but still it will certainly make her hold her back her own telepathic powers unless there is a flaw (well it is certain there are always flaws) but she had to realize by herself and by the way since he is a telpath eventually with time he will learn to combine this powers towards its full potential and this powers are certainly dreary for other telepaths if not for jean who I also think that she is arguably most powerful telepath in marvel universe....

I honestly can't say which one is the more powerful telepath currently. I do know though, that there was a time that, by Xavier's own admission, Jean, withouth the phoenix force was a more powerful telepath than him. Current Jean is teen Jean, if I am not mistaken, and she is somehow going a different path than the old Jean Grey.

@rr79: actually, the adult Jean was already resurrected and she is now back and has her own series with her own team in X-Men Red. Teen Jean is still around in X-Men Blue though

Didn't know she was back now. I haven't kept up with it the way I used to. I'll have to get caught up.

@rr79: yeah X-Men red is the best x-Title atm IMO, except that it is only released once a month so the pacing is really slow and the momentum gets lost. (X-Men Red #Meanwhile wolverine has a hunt for wolverine out every damn week. Stupid marvel. Well anyway, X-Men red is until issue #5 so far + X-Men Red Annual #1

I'm actually enjoying the teen x-men for the most part. A few things I don't like, but it's pretty fun anyway. But yeah, I will definitely have to catch up on X-Men Red also.

@rr79: I enjoy them as well (but comicvine hates the teens so much it's hilarious) Gold is the most boring for me, it's mostly Kitty + her sidekicks

I have to say though, teen Jean needs to make up her mind. One thing I read she decided to be with Beast, next thing I read she is talking about loving Scott. I know she is young but she seems to be a little fickle.

@biswaboxz: I am pretty sure that didn’t become a permanent part of his power set. That was simply Scarlet Witches powers. Either that or there is something I don’t get or am missing.

Jean isn’t that same teenage girl who couldn’t control her powers. The last thing Charles will be able to do is lock away her powers, especially since Jean herself has used that ability on other mutants and has known how Charles locked them away when she was younger.

@biswaboxz:do you mean to imply that Charles can warp reality now?

@marvelfan1992: Actually i have no clear picture about the manifestation of mind's displacement from astral plane to real world but when it had happened with psycloke her she gained multiple powers ....so I had just made the assumptions about fantomex(who has powers like illusion casting and also having powers which possessed multiple brains)-charles mind's displacement ....

@biswaboxz: i guess we'll learn more in the Astonishing annual

this kinda looks like an Emma vs Jean thread lol

Bump

bump

Jean wins in a pretty good battle.

and I was right. Xavier>>>Jean.

my list was correct

as proven by Astonishing X-men annual where Xavier casually erases her memories of an entire day and modified her personality to make her less depressed without her knowing.

Don't see how anyone can argue about her beating him

Jean.

Jean.

@del_torro: Is still argue that Xavier blindsided her. She should’ve been capable of resisting him at least. Even if she loses, she should’ve been able to resist, so I take that feat with a massive grain of salt. Look at the last time someone stole her memories.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/8LCalfDKPeEarZpLsj6fA64ZTijLCRnPEg3RED2iH5YUCqXnVRCEvpX-f1cWdPxTBjDdwZIrXG6K=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/WYk5r1cxetDKpvNWe8Rw86_c322cgRw1YyxultubAuUuUTsw13kekeQiSbZJMB-HFDkVHulc5tBd=s1600

We need a proper one where Jean actually shows a struggle or at least shows she was overwhelmed.

@del_torro: that wasn't casual everything was prep. Everybody knows skilled telepaths can trick each other, especially with prep. Emma did it to Xavier. This is about a battle, no prep.

by this reasoning Emma> Xavier

Gallery

all hail Emma Frost!

@Warlockmage: that was different, Emma had prep and worked her way into his mind over time.

Xavier wiped jean without prep.

@lordofallhumans: there's no indication that he had prep, the issue shows him doing it right off the bat

she had as much prep as Xavier did... he was able to do it uninterrupted and without anyone knowing about it. she was able to do it uninterrupted without anyone knowing it. the only amount of prep she had is the time between when Xavier made telepathic contact with scott and then she went to work. she even states that she slipped in when he made contact with scott so no not really any prep at all. she did the same thing Xavier did to jean only better and this time it doesn't fit your narrative

its not like she spent days or weeks to set this up.

We'll probably get a better picture if Jean fights Cassandra Nova, but for now I want to say Jean. She has a lot more power, and is only slightly less skilled probably bordering on equally skilled, so overall she should be able to take it in the most epic master vs pupil telepathy battle

didn't the writer say that Jean is more powerful and he just caught her off guard when she was tired? I don't know if this can be used to say "Xavier>>>Jean"

@warlockmage said:

by this reasoning Emma> Xavier

Gallery

all hail Emma Frost!

while I agree that what happened in Astonishing Annual doesn't mean "Xavier>>>Jean", I don't think what he did can be equated to what Emma did because she lay a TRAP, whereas Xavier didn't lay a trap. But it was definitely a surprise attack that Jean wasn't even trying to fend off.

Xavier

Honestly this is too close to call.

Xavier post- X-Men Legacy is stronger then he was at any point when Jean was alive previously. He has firmly established that he can beat every other psychic on a possible top 5 list including Emma, Exodus, Shadow King, and Rachel. And he mind raped a Phoenix host. Add to that the feats of Red skull and Red Onslaught using his powers and his mind being capable of incredible feats from beyond the grave and he is with out argument the best Psychic in Marvel by TP feats.

Jean is the single most celebrated Psychic in Marvel with the strongest psychics in the world repeatedly admitting how much stronger she is then them. Add to that the years of training under Xavier and the ability to combine raw power and skill into several feats that break the rules of established psychic abilities and she is unquestionably the most intimidating Psychic in Marvel.

Now because the battle forum works on feats.....Xavier has erased the minds of Phoenix host and psychics more powerful then him on multiple occasions and battled stronger psychics with enough energy that other psychics in his tier are overwhelmed by it. Some of these feats are against Jean herself. By feats Xavier is as skilled as Jean is powerful and vis versa.....its a tie that could go either way without anyone really having hurt feelings

Jean.

@koays: how much weight do we put on the statements by x-men writers/editors? I remember a post of some x-men editor saying Jean was the top telepath among Xavier, Jean and Emma.

I thought X’s experience combined with his power gave him the edge. Jean has the raw power, IMO has always been portrayed as not fully in control at least not always

@evil-incarnate: not fully in control of what? When has Jean not been fully in control of her power? That's a misconception created by animated and live versions of Jean/Phoenix and apparently a continuing trend of ignoring that it was never the case. Even when the Phoenix thing happened Jean was in control of the power just not herself because she was being covertly manipulated to give in to her darker desires, this caused Phoenix to take over. Jean was consistently second to Xaiver in skill and power, his only rival. Then she surpassed him in power with skill being equalized, with her being able to add skills he can't do because they require more power than he has.

hmm what's the evidence for Jean being equal to Xavier in skill now? I always thought she was close to him in skill, but not quite there.

You're referring to Jordan White

@onsipin: what can he do skillwise that she can't duplicate? He's not her teacher anymore, and hasn't been for some time. They are peers. She was doing things he couldn't way before now. Like completely taking over a body and transferring her powers into that body. That body being a powerful and skilled telepath. He can't do that and it was complexed and skill and power were required. He didn't have the ability to sense young Cyclops and had to use her mind to do it. He admitted that he would not have been able to take in a mind as powerful as his, break it up and basically program it to come together to place himself back into his body while dying. That was power and skill. Hell, Emma is just as skilled as him, but less powerful so he can so more.

I think i know what you mean...and we do put stock in them, but only when their writing all the characters involved or their statement is backed by on panel works. Morrison saying Jean was more powerful then Xavier an Emma is fact. Carey saying that post Exodus rebuild Xavier is once again the strongest telepath on the planet is fact. But the problem is when people say things about a character like Jean when she's dead....Make no exceptions Jean was always stupidly powerful, but ALOT of her feats pre-death have been duplicated or surpassed by Xavier, Emma and Rachel. Still writers repeatedly said that Jean was "top" psychic without specifying in what way, even though her feats weren't holding up as well against the more prominent psi fights of the 00's.

They've definetly raised the bar so that Jean can maintain her status as the most powerful psi and she's shown a few hints of it in Red, but if someone stated Jean was the "top" psychic, i'd still need them to breakdown in what way they mean before i could throw it into consideration for an argument where a big point is who is more skilled.

Ends in X

mwahaha

@marvelfan1992 yeah that's the one thanks

@lordofallhumans he just always seemed to be portrayed as the most skilled telepath. As for actual feats, @koays could you go into a bit more detail of what Xavier has shown to duplicate or surpass what Jean has (as per your reply to me)? I'm not too familiar of with that time-period/era unfortunately

It's not really a matter of Xavier specifically matching her feats so much as the Top 3 of the mid 00's and early 10's Xavier, Emma and Rachel all having feats that weren't heard of before. Projecting minds from another part of the galaxy, scanning the planet without cerebro, mind controlling 1000's of other psychics, dominating and blocking/defeating Omega Level psychics and phoenix avatars. Hell even fighting Exodus to stalemates. There are still things that stand out for Jean like holding a spirit on the astral plane from moving on, and the infamous splitting of Xavier's mind, but a lot of her other feats like scanning the planet for Xavier and facing Onslaught aren't as standout.

It's alot of things that are comparable to what Jean was doing immediately prior to and during New X-Men that heralded her as so great and powerful. For alot of these feats we assume now that she's back Jean could duplicate or surpass them, but it's not through her own feats showing us as much as us all just assuming she can because of statments that she's the "top" psychic in a vague way.

I agree with @Koays: on a lot of points he made. The hierarchy of telepathy isn't static, it changes over time with how the characters themselves grow and the preferences of the writers in charge at that point.

I think he mentioned in this thread (one maybe one of other 50 telepathy battle threads, you guys need to slow down), that Revolution and New Xmen (in addition, Seagle and Kellys run), were what pushed Jean as a top Telepath, but since then, other Telepaths have grown In power and changed. Xavier got stronger in Legacy and may be even more stronger after thousands of years battling on the astral plane. But I think Jean is still portrayed as being stronger than Emma, Rachel and Betsy.

My reasons being Cassandra Novas comment on Rachel being weaker than Jean in the Xmen Red annual, and Rachel being taken out by psychic projections from Jean in Phoenix Resurrection. Then there's Jean as a ghost getting past Emmas defenses, and possessing her body and keeping her from actively fighting back as teen Jean searches her mind. Backed up by her feat in Phoenix Resurrection where she is Subconsciously projecting psychic manifestations at different locations around the world and on the moon, projections that could take on teams of Xmen and led to 3 Telepaths (cable using Cerebra, Rachel and Psylocke) being taken out, I'd consider her among the top 5 Telepaths right after Shadow King, Xavier, Cassandra, with Exodus coming up right behind.

Where i disagree with you is the implication that Psychic Beings like Nova and Shadow King should be comparable to the living psychics.

We've seen Shadow King overpowered by people without Psychic powers and he's lost every one v one he's ever had. Nova was able to sneak and control Emma Frost but she was able to use sheer will to return her back to her psi prison without much fight. We know that when Emma and Rachel were ripped from their bodies they were still incredibly powerful with Rachel using her TK to powerful effect and Emma able to shatter the Skrull Psi blockade even though they had previous duplicated variations on her and Jean's TP.

jean recently got mind wiped by Xavier. and canonically jean has stated Xavier is more powerful. so that's that on that

xavier he is onslaught in the same way manhunter is fernis

@butterflykyss: she said that recently or decades ago when it was true? The mindwipe was a sneak attack while she was tired. It's no different than Emma getting the jump on him with prep. When unaware, telepaths can be taken down by other telepaths, that's not a secret and has happened several times to many powerful telepaths for decades. It's crazy how now all of a sudden it's a big deal because it happened to Jean. It's also canonically stated by several powerful telepaths and non telepaths alike that she is the most powerful telepath, so there's that too. At this point a fight between them can go either way.

Charles wins.

One thing to note is that Emma was able to get the better of Charles when he entered her trap, meanwhile Jean was able to get through all Cassandra Nova's traps in Charles' mind, and at that time she was equal to or greater than Charles. Although I'm just not sure if Charles was expecting a fight/Emma when he entered Scott's. Do you happen to remember?