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Posted by onsipin (522 posts) 9 months, 27 days ago

Poll: Jean Grey vs Professor X (115 votes)

Jean Grey 50%
Professor X 40%
Too close to call 10%

Wanted to do a poll on this matchup. This is Jean WITHOUT THE PHOENIX, but without holding back anything either. A purely TP battle. Has the student surpassed the teacher, or is Charles Xavier still the top dog?

(Comicbook versions. Photo is only for visual effect)

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean

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#3 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean

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#4 Posted by del_torro (3631 posts) - - Show Bio

Currently, I think their portrayed on equal levels . but Xavier still has more feats. And it's really hard to scale them, so I'm going with Charles.

I'd say the current Ranking in universe would be

Red Onslaught

Cassandra Nova

Shadow King

Charles Xavier

Jean grey

Emma Frost

Exodus

Rachel grey

Teen Jean grey

Psylocke

Quentin Quire

Cuckoos

Martha

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#5 Posted by Stalin-Is-Steel (3586 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty sure Jean was implied to be stronger than Xavier multiple times, through I'd say that he's more skilled in terms of reach and flexibility.

She'd win a good majority of fights through.

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#6 Posted by IceHeart_30 (1100 posts) - - Show Bio

Currently, I think their portrayed on equal levels . but Xavier still has more feats. And it's really hard to scale them, so I'm going with Charles.

I'd say the current Ranking in universe would be

Red Onslaught

Cassandra Nova

Shadow King

Charles Xavier

Jean grey

Emma Frost

Exodus

Rachel grey

Teen Jean grey

Psylocke

Quentin Quire

Cuckoos

Martha

Red Onslaught is dead.

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#7 Posted by adamTRMM (9144 posts) - - Show Bio

By statements, Jean. By feats, Xavier.

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#8 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (9290 posts) - - Show Bio

comic-wise........jean was holding back.......according to red, no more holding back......i think prof x and jean are equally strong.......but jean could take him if she wanted too.........

also from red annual, jean is pushing her TP and is always working and spying on her friends to make sure there safe ........where blackbolt says "ur mind is fractured" while jean says "its just busy"

wheres @pyrofn in this???

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#9 Posted by del_torro (3631 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, Jean has statements, but Xaviers feats are much more impressive.

They're still in the same ballpark, but I think he edges her out. That might change soon with Xmen Red and Cassandra Nova being scared of Jean, but that's doubtful since current Xavier can still go toe to toe to Shadow King amped by Proteus or amped by tapping into the power of the Telepaths on earth, and can tap into that power too. He could get up from a psychic attack from shadow king that ripped his mind in half on the astral plane and save Psylocke from the shadow king.

I think we'll know how they rank compared to each other in August when we get the Astonishing XMEN Annual. There X shows up when the Old O5 are having a reunion. That issue should if they're still equals or if one is stronger than the other.

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#10 Posted by deactivated-5bb52f8f25413 (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean ftw.

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#11 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18326 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Lan_Fan (13210 posts) - - Show Bio

Ehh, it's kind of inconsistent. Depends on the writer, really.

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#13 Edited by marvelfan1992 (2529 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by PyroFN (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: @del_torro: Xavier may have an abundance of feats, but Jean usually blows him out of the water with feats that he claims to be impossible, yet she accomplishes them. It is those kind of feats that cement her being a more powerful telepath and her current version boasts in skill and power that blows 90’s Jean out of the water and leaves Xavier behind in a ranking of whose the more powerful telepath.

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#15 Edited by ElPendejo (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: That honestly shouldn’t be the case. Yeah, teen Jean is the more powerful telepath, but Emma’s got the skills plus the power to put her above Jean as an overall telepath.

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#16 Posted by marvelfan1992 (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

@elpendejo: indeed, which is why I was wondering if was trying to imply that Teen Jean>Emma

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#17 Edited by Shaladue (552 posts) - - Show Bio

Professor X is the best telepath. The only person stated to actually match him was Shadow King last I saw when he was resurrected in Astonishing X-Men. Even then Charles managed to beat him while weak.

Edit: Even when he after he died and AXIS was taking place everyone was saying he had the most powerful brain. Marvel has the most incompetent writers so don't be fooled into thinking Jean is the mary sue god... Is curreny Jean even good? I skipped her revival arc and X-Men Red.

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#18 Posted by del_torro (3631 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheWatcherKing: The only time I recall Jeen beating Emma was in Xmen Blue, where they were both tapping into the power of a cosmic cube. But still, Emma has been portrayed as higher than Jeen, she easily turned off jeens telepathy at the end of all new Xmen, and easily dealt with Xavier Junior, whom Jeen has had problems taking on with telepathy. Emma fights people like Xavier and Exodus and Rachel easily, I find it hard seeing teen Jean with her level of skill doing that.

@PyroFN: I don't know, he has feats that are outright more impressive and blow the things she's done out of water. The things that he's been amazed she could do seem to be like those specialized things that only a specific kind of people can do, Xaviers feats seem more like, you'd have to be the top of the top level Telepaths to accomplish this kind of thing. Like, you have to be a vip member to use this feature, while the other is you have to be a veteran member with experience. So a 1 month vip member can do this, but a 5 year veteran can't, but the veteran has learned tricks that will take the vip member tears to master.

For Example, 12 year old Jean grey sensing Scott and the Phoenix connecting them, but Xavier being unable to see it without her. It doesn't mean she's stronger, just that she has some specialized abilities.

On that note, I've already said that I consider both of them equal, but Xavier more superior because he has more feats and his feats are more impressive. Astonishing XMEN in August will decide how I view them. But until normal Jean takes on Galactus head and redirects the minds of 8 billion skulls to get through his shields, or fight Ego the living planet with telepathy, I think I'll place Xavier over her.

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#19 Posted by ElPendejo (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: Definitely be a weird thing to imply, but I’d love to see his reasoning.

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#20 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: Jean was still new to being a telepath when Emma did that. Jean got into her mind later in all new x men irrc. But alright.

Edit nvm

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#21 Posted by marvelfan1992 (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: what Issue did Emma take on X Jr. again?

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#22 Posted by Batvibe12 (5641 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean for the majority.

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#23 Posted by del_torro (3631 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheWatcherKing: I think this was around the end. When Emmas powers were back at full power, I believe Jean had a lot of experience at this point after going through the Cuckoos, Quentin, Rachel, Xorna, Xavier Junior, and Oracle, she'd been through a lot by then.

@Marvelfan1992: it was in Xmen Blue, can't remember the issue. Cross time capers.Spoilers

Xavier and his brotherhood went to replace the O5 in the timeline, causing Polaris and magneto to disappear from existence (because the brotherhood killed them). The O5 go back in time, meet generation X Emma (who was weaker than current Emma) and Banshee. During the final battle, Beast teleports Emma and generation X to join the fight,and she shuts down Xavier Junior easily.

After everything is dealt with, reality goes back to normal Polaris and Magneto come back.

Xavier (the real one), had a cool feat in that arc, new been sending messages in time to present magneto.

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#24 Edited by del_torro (3631 posts) - - Show Bio

@Marvelfan1992: I checked, Xmen Blue 20. Jean attacked him with a mental assault in #19,but he ignored it, Emma attacked him In 20 and had him on his knees, he had to run away into the timestream.

I can't remember if they fought during battle of the atom, but I know Rachel stomped him then. And when he came back after that, I know he took control of the Cuckoos and was mentally attacking Jeen, and she needed pink mode to beat him. Can't remember if he fought Emma during these two events, but her Powers were broken then anyways.

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#25 Posted by marvelfan1992 (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: thanks will check it out, i've already forgotten what happened in the time capers arc lol. Nah he and Emma didn't fight in BoTA nor when he returned. He fought the cuckoos + jean only

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#26 Edited by PyroFN (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: You mean All-New X-Men is when Jeen fought Xavier Jr. Not X-Men Blue, right?

Edit: Nevermind, I forgot about the time capers arc.

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#27 Posted by adamTRMM (9144 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn:

Don't be defensive :p Xavier's feats are still better, if you're talking about the one where she hided his consciousness among multiple minds on Earth or something like this during Morrison's run (CMIIW, the way I remember this one was called impossible by him), he should've made a better research because Xavier was already established to be planetary+.

Yes, Jean has statements, but Xaviers feats are much more impressive.

They're still in the same ballpark, but I think he edges her out. That might change soon with Xmen Red and Cassandra Nova being scared of Jean, but that's doubtful since current Xavier can still go toe to toe to Shadow King amped by Proteus or amped by tapping into the power of the Telepaths on earth, and can tap into that power too. He could get up from a psychic attack from shadow king that ripped his mind in half on the astral plane and save Psylocke from the shadow king.

I think we'll know how they rank compared to each other in August when we get the Astonishing XMEN Annual. There X shows up when the Old O5 are having a reunion. That issue should if they're still equals or if one is stronger than the other.

Is that really Xavier? Stopped reading AXM after the 1st issue...

and


On that note, I've already said that I consider both of them equal, but Xavier more superior because he has more feats and his feats are more impressive. Astonishing XMEN in August will decide how I view them. But until normal Jean takes on Galactus head and redirects the minds of 8 billion skulls to get through his shields, or fight Ego the living planet with telepathy, I think I'll place Xavier over her.

Refresh my memeory please.

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#28 Posted by del_torro (3631 posts) - - Show Bio

@Adamtrmm:

https://m.imgur.com/wRgRg4s?r

Here's the ego scan.

https://m.imgur.com/a/bNYQ1

Here's the one with galactus, it says entire race. I can't recall where I got the number 8billion, so that's probably wrong (maybe I was thinking of when Rogue had 8 billion minds in her head?).

Still it's really impressive that most of the Xmen Telepaths are planet level and take on cosmic threats.

Xavier, Jean, Nate grey and Rachel have solar system/Galaxy range feats, dimensional range feats, messages through time. Psylocke,cable, Emma, Teen Jean all planetary level feats. In the marvel universe, when it comes to Telepaths, the Xmen are top.

About Astonishing, yeah, that was really Xavier but SPOILERS

He took (stole, maybe) Fantomexs body, and now calls himself X.

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#29 Posted by PyroFN (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: Perhaps it wasn’t the power, but the precision. Either way, it was clearly something he couldn’t do. She also has managed to break through helmeted Juggernauts defenses and Magnetos defenses. (Both whom have token measures to keep Xavier out)

Also, yeah. X is the real Xavier who created a new body from Fantomexes body.

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#30 Edited by adamTRMM (9144 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro:

Yeah it was 8 billion. It was done from the moon light years away IIRC as well.

Nate is on a different level tho. Rachel is a jobber lol

Damn, what a terrible resurrection. The 90s feel like Alan Moore compared to current comics.

@pyrofn:

He couldn't do because he was already owned by Nova. Magneto's defenses (the helmet) weren't really defenses back in the day. IIRC correctly, the Juggernaut's instance also mentions that Xavier could do the same meaning, somebody made a crappy research (the writer I mean) as it was established at the very beginning he's immune to tp. I think it was a simple mistake.

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#31 Posted by GladeusEx (680 posts) - - Show Bio

Late to the party, but I reckon Xavier wins. Then again, based on where most plot lines go nowadays, Jean would probably win if the writer was planning something.

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#32 Posted by PyroFN (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: That’s why I referred to Magneto’s defenses, rather than naming his helmet. He only mentioned Xavier doing something like that because back then, Jean had just gotten her telepathy and Xavier was dead. Juggernaut had no idea that Xavier was dead and assumed the psychic attack was from Xavier, despite the fact that Xavier can’t breach Juggernauts helmet. It’s entirely possible that he thought Xavier could pull it off, but with Juggernauts lack in the intelligence category, I’m more inclined to believe that Xavier can’t breach the helmet vs Juggernauts assumption of someone he hates and tries not to learn about at the time beyond, I need a defense for his psychic powers.

It could’ve been a simple mistake, but we can’t make any assumptions and given Jeans track record of breaching defenses impenetrable and some claiming them to be immune to telepathy, shows more in favor that Jean is simply capable of breaching defenses that not even Xavier could accomplish vs an oversight of the writer and editor.

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#33 Edited by Stalin-Is-Steel (3586 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: Jean getting through the helmet isn't that impressive considering at the time Juggernaut's helmet hadn't been fully established as TP proof. I know because I did some research into that feat.

Through you could most likely use the second time she did it later on, I'd put that one up to bad writing.

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#34 Posted by del_torro (3631 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stalin-is-steel: I think it was pretty much established by then.

http://i.imgur.com/6RcXrdo.jpg

@Adamtrmm: Nate is so low on the totem pole this days, it's embarrassing. I can't mention a Telepath that I think he'd be able to beat.

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#35 Edited by marvelfan1992 (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

@pyrofn:

Don't be defensive :p Xavier's feats are still better, if you're talking about the one where she hided his consciousness among multiple minds on Earth or something like this during Morrison's run (CMIIW, the way I remember this one was called impossible by him), he should've made a better research because Xavier was already established to be planetary+.

@del_torro said:

Yes, Jean has statements, but Xaviers feats are much more impressive.

They're still in the same ballpark, but I think he edges her out. That might change soon with Xmen Red and Cassandra Nova being scared of Jean, but that's doubtful since current Xavier can still go toe to toe to Shadow King amped by Proteus or amped by tapping into the power of the Telepaths on earth, and can tap into that power too. He could get up from a psychic attack from shadow king that ripped his mind in half on the astral plane and save Psylocke from the shadow king.

I think we'll know how they rank compared to each other in August when we get the Astonishing XMEN Annual. There X shows up when the Old O5 are having a reunion. That issue should if they're still equals or if one is stronger than the other.

Is that really Xavier? Stopped reading AXM after the 1st issue...

and

@del_torro said:

On that note, I've already said that I consider both of them equal, but Xavier more superior because he has more feats and his feats are more impressive. Astonishing XMEN in August will decide how I view them. But until normal Jean takes on Galactus head and redirects the minds of 8 billion skulls to get through his shields, or fight Ego the living planet with telepathy, I think I'll place Xavier over her.

Refresh my memeory please.

being established as planetary does not mean he could do what she did. Not saying he can't, but being "planetary" could be just being able to touch the minds of everyone on earth/communicate with everyone etc, not necessarily what Jean did. Emma and Rachel are both planetary, does that mean they can do what Jean did? Not necessarily. I just think it's not a good argument for this instance

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#36 Posted by Motifian (1565 posts) - - Show Bio

Charles wins. It's firmly established in New X Men that his mind is too much for Jean who was subconsciously tapping into Phoenix Force and would've shattered her mind so she had to distribute it among all the mutants on Earth.

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#37 Posted by del_torro (3631 posts) - - Show Bio

@Motifian: Jean was sick and dying when she did that feat, literally bleeding out of her eyes and nose. It wasn't a matter of Xavier being too much for her. It was a matter of housing two powerful Telepaths in one mind, especially a mind that was already dying. Xavier commented that what she did was impossible.

Xavier hasn't come close replicating that feat, she was able to store the mind and psyche of another power Telepath in her own mind, despite the fact that she was dying, then she split that mind into millions of pieces, placed them in the minds of mutants around the world and rigged them to come back and join together when connected by Cerebra.

The only one who's done something similar IS Exodus when rebuilding Xaviers brain, but all he did was store Xaviers memories, Xaviers mind was still in his own body.

And tapping into the phoenix force without actually hosting it doesn't give you godlike powers. Yes Jean was tapping into the force in new Xmen, but you can't mention 10 feats from that run that she can easily replicate or surpass from other runs where she isn't tapping into it.

She couldn't fly in space, which she'd done before without Phoenix, what kind of Phoenix host can't fly in space? Her telepathy was short range, she needed Cerebra for planetary scanning, when in other runs she's easily done that, what kind of Phoenix force user can't easily scan a planet? She died from being close to the sun, Phoenix Jean bathed in a star then ate it. So it doesn't really make sense to write off all her feats in that run as the Phoenix force, when they're pretty low level compared to what she can normally do, and when she couldn't do anything that a weak Phoenix host can do.

What was the largest thing she lifted in that run? 50 tons of debris? Weaker versions of Jean have building weighing thousands of tons, planes, falling cities, supported a collapsed mountain. Phoenix Jean on the other hand casually handles billions of tons (even when Jean is suppressing the power).

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#38 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (9290 posts) - - Show Bio

what? yesterday jean was winning now xavier is ????wth?

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#39 Posted by thehunter (3398 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this live action versions? Or comics?

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#40 Posted by onsipin (522 posts) - - Show Bio

@thehunter: it is stated in the OP, Comic versions :)

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#41 Posted by Motifian (1565 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: AFAIK A, Jean was dying due to the same reason that his mind was too much for her.

Also just because she couldn't fly in space doesn't means she wasn't getting powered up by Phoenix Force. That's counter logic at its finest.

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#42 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: I was referring on what want did in all new x men issue 30 but yeah, you might be right about Emma's being teen jean's better.

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#43 Posted by ElPendejo (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: I’m pretty sure Emma didn’t have her powers back to stable levels at that time. She didn’t have it back at normal levels until issue 37.

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#44 Edited by ElPendejo (1600 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (9290 posts) - - Show Bio

he gets a lot of sympathy votes for being in a wheel chair(sometimes)

lol emma said to xavier that he had a wheelchair fetish

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#46 Posted by adamTRMM (9144 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn:

That’s why I referred to Magneto’s defenses, rather than naming his helmet. He only mentioned Xavier doing something like that because back then, Jean had just gotten her telepathy and Xavier was dead. Juggernaut had no idea that Xavier was dead and assumed the psychic attack was from Xavier, despite the fact that Xavier can’t breach Juggernauts helmet. It’s entirely possible that he thought Xavier could pull it off, but with Juggernauts lack in the intelligence category, I’m more inclined to believe that Xavier can’t breach the helmet vs Juggernauts assumption of someone he hates and tries not to learn about at the time beyond, I need a defense for his psychic powers.

It could’ve been a simple mistake, but we can’t make any assumptions and given Jeans track record of breaching defenses impenetrable and some claiming them to be immune to telepathy, shows more in favor that Jean is simply capable of breaching defenses that not even Xavier could accomplish vs an oversight of the writer and editor.

Ok. Nah, I don't think that's what happened. I thought that writer was just sloppy as it was already established the helmet protects him from the mental powers and he specifically mentions Xavier being able to do the same when we've seen the evidence of the opposite.

If we acknowledge all of the contexts, then there's no history of Jean breaching defenses. Xavier mindeffed a Sentinel. It's virtually impossible, and every time he actually stopped holding back on Mags, he had no chance. So her placing a single projection inside Mags head isn't really more impressive than Xavier's track record against him.

@Adamtrmm: Nate is so low on the totem pole this days, it's embarrassing. I can't mention a Telepath that I think he'd be able to beat.

Nate is a nonentity now. I was talking about his glorious days.

being established as planetary does not mean he could do what she did. Not saying he can't, but being "planetary" could be just being able to touch the minds of everyone on earth/communicate with everyone etc, not necessarily what Jean did. Emma and Rachel are both planetary, does that mean they can do what Jean did? Not necessarily. I just think it's not a good argument for this instance

Him battling PF on multiple planes of existence shows range and power far beyond that. Morrison wasn't a knowledgeable X-writer. That explains it. He thought it was supposed to be impressive, but it was not since the original Dark Phoenix Saga.

By the way, I think Emma could. Her skill feats are also better than Jean's all thing considered.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sigh... this is why I left battles.

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#47 Posted by adamTRMM (9144 posts) - - Show Bio

what? yesterday jean was winning now xavier is ????wth?

Common sense. Sometimes it prevails. :))

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#48 Posted by del_torro (3631 posts) - - Show Bio

@Motifian: no read the issue again, she clearly says "I can't hold him, I'm too sick"

And I didn't say die wasn't tapping into the Phoenix. I said we shouldn't write off the feats because they were below what Jean can do on a normal day and way below what she could do with full Phoenix.

Basically, what I said was Normal Jean and Jean tapping into the force without hosting it are basically on the same level of power (with Normal Jean even having better feats).

And I mentioned different feats.

New Xmen Jean strained while lifting 50 tons, while normal Jean has lifted thousands of tons, and full Phoenix Jean moved billions of tons with a flip of her hand.

Normal Jean can fly through space, Phoenix Jean can fly through space, but new Xmen Jean can't fly through space

Normal Jean has shielded from a white hole, Phoenix Jean has bathed in and ate a star, new Xmen Jean was saying from being close to the sun.

Normal Jean has astral projected to another dimension, scanned the planet easily, Phoenix Jean can sense trouble on faraway planets, new Xmen Jean always uses Cerebra for long range and planetary telepathy.

Normal Jean has shielded from Island busting explosions, the stranger, binary, a white hole, Phoenix Jean has tanked attacks from galactus, firelord, new Xmen Jeans best shield feat is blocking a bottle thrown, and dying from being close to the suns surface.

I'm not saying she wasn't tapping into the Phoenix, I'm saying the feats she performed aren't above what she can do without the force. So basically, it shouldn't be hard to say she could replicate those feats.

@hopesummersforthefuture: Xavier and Jean are in the same Tier of high level Telepaths, but he wins because he has more feats and most of those feats are more impressive than Jean's.

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#49 Posted by ElPendejo (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

@hopesummersforthefuture: Well, guess she has to find another insult since he’s walking again. Although that might change since writers love to handicap him.

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#50 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (9290 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm:

being established as planetary does not mean he could do what she did. Not saying he can't, but being "planetary" could be just being able to touch the minds of everyone on earth/communicate with everyone etc, not necessarily what Jean did. Emma and Rachel are both planetary, does that mean they can do what Jean did? Not necessarily. I just think it's not a good argument for this instance

Him battling PF on multiple planes of existence shows range and power far beyond that. Morrison wasn't a knowledgeable X-writer. That explains it. He thought it was supposed to be impressive, but it was not since the original Dark Phoenix Saga.

By the way, I think Emma could. Her skill feats are also better than Jean's all thing considered.

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Sigh... this is why I left battles.

Well........we all know jean beat emma in almost every tp fight(in dark phoenix sega?,from jean finds out about psychic affair to battle of the atom grown up jean beat emma and cuckoos by herself) .........(teen jeen was the exception cause she was untrained and just found out she was psychic :P )

and according to x-men red........jean is pushing all her powers........shes using her TP powers to spy on her friends to make sure there safe........(some say she was surveillance her friends through TP)...........she has to go up against nova

emma being a Alpha mutant couldnt contain the phoenix force(see phoenix endsong) Emma was trained by the hellfire club and shaw, so they use tricks to get ahead.....(see emma vs charles in x-men legacy)

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^^ emma tells logan "she needs to know what it feels like digging in ur head where she dont belong"........really emma of all people???

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whats worst ur attitude or ur power levels ^^

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^^she cheated......waiting inside scott's mind to attack