Jean Grey vs Onslaught

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#1 Edited by marvelfan1992 (3273 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules:

  • This is "base" Onslaught without having absorbed Nate and Franklin
  • Jean us her current self and has no phoenix
  • Morals off for both characters and both rounds
  • Location: An empty town

Round:

1. All-out. Jean can use her pink form. Onslaught has no knowledge of her pink form

2. Telepathy only. No pink form or psi-leeching

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#3 Posted by del_torro (3900 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy

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#4 Posted by Koays (12224 posts) - - Show Bio

Um.... @Del_torro you wanna take this? I already maxed out my nest betrayal card this month....

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#5 Posted by del_torro (3900 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: -_- how about, you win this one for Jean and I will support and fight for Rachel in any battle no Matter how much of a mismatch and become her number one cheerleader as fan for the next 3 months

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#6 Posted by geekryan (5777 posts) - - Show Bio

1) Jean with moderate difficulty

2) Jean with high difficulty

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#7 Posted by Koays (12224 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: But wait, if you do that then what will I do?

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#8 Posted by EmmaFrostXmen (3855 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean both rounds

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#9 Edited by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio
@koays said:

Um.... @Del_torro you wanna take this? I already maxed out my nest betrayal card this month....

But why?

Base Onslaught is just 90s Xavier telepathy. Jean should be comfortably above 90s Xavier.

She has her pink hax for the all-out round. Onslaught is a psionic being, who uses lots of psionic energy. Jean is gonna be really juiced up from that. I would even say that vs Onslaught with Nate absorbed she stands a chance to win. She was already able to telepathically shield her entire team from Onslaught with Nate powering him in the 90s with a little help from Cable, she should be able to do it again while absorbing all that psionic energy. The only problem is whether she could shield from him telekinetically long enough which she probably can base on her good shielding feats. He has no knowledge of her pink form so he will be throwing loads of psionic energy at her. He eats a giant pink blast or a pink punch to the face

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#10 Posted by GoldKing (1207 posts) - - Show Bio

What is pink form?

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#11 Posted by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@goldking: Jean can absorb psionic/psychic energy and use it to power up her telekinesis. She turns pink.

Here is the explanation from the comics

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She has absorbed energy from an entire planet and powered up enough to knock Galactus down

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

She also drained psionic energy from the Kree Supreme intelligence, a being composed of billions of minds and has its own psionic abilities and used it to defeat Kree. This was somewhere in Extraordinary X-Men

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#12 Posted by mm7910 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

I think onslaught wins both. Jean may be slightly over onslaught telepathy but while they are battling with their minds he will impale her with something.

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#14 Posted by marvelfan1992 (3273 posts) - - Show Bio

@mm7910: he can't impale her during the telepathy only round. it is purely a mental fight

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#15 Posted by mm7910 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: ok I misread the rounds. Onslaught takes 1. Jean takes 2.

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#16 Posted by marvelfan1992 (3273 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Supermanthor (22700 posts) - - Show Bio

Onslaught

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#18 Posted by cosmic_reign (3901 posts) - - Show Bio

Onslaught both rds

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#19 Posted by mm7910 (299 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by coraPVP (380 posts) - - Show Bio

round 1 - 50/50 If jean's shield's can block Onslaught long enough for her to absorb his psychic energy then she goes pink and shows Onslaught the power of bendisforce

round 2 - Jean solidly. Base Onslaught tp is just Professor X tp. Jean and Cable have already shielded from Onslaught that had franklin and nate inside him

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#22 Posted by acebomb98 (986 posts) - - Show Bio

Onslaught

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#23 Posted by Koays (12224 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: Lol I'm not arguing it. I dont want any problems.

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#24 Posted by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: I can understand not wanting to get into a debate about her pink form,but the telepathy round at least should be a more decisive match. This is practically just 90s Xavier. Even Rachel should be more powerful than this version of him.

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#25 Posted by Koays (12224 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: Lol....I'll just say i think your underselling Onslaughts power levels

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#26 Posted by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: this is just a TP battle though, and his TP is just whatever TP Xavier had form that time

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#27 Posted by mm7910 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: I think there are a few things you are not thinking about here:

1. They are close to equals on TP, but onslaught will be much angrier. He is made from anger and grief.

2. Jean is not as smart as Xavier. So while even if she is slightly above Onslaught/Xaviers TP, you can't forget intelligence, that will come into play here.

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#28 Posted by Koays (12224 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: Not really. Unless we believe Xavier could reach out pull peoples physical bodies onto the astral plane.

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#29 Posted by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: things like that are more than likely to do with a mix of Magneto's powers changing what Onslaught could do. The same way Jean's TK and TP merge to make the pink form, Xavier and Magnetos powers combined which let Onslaught do different things. But in terms of purely telepathy, well Cable and Jean were shielding the team from him while he had 2 batteries powering him up, namely Franklin and Nate.

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#30 Posted by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@mm7910 said:

@onsipin: I think there are a few things you are not thinking about here:

1. They are close to equals on TP, but onslaught will be much angrier. He is made from anger and grief.

2. Jean is not as smart as Xavier. So while even if she is slightly above Onslaught/Xaviers TP, you can't forget intelligence, that will come into play here.

1) it's morals off though so Jean will have no problem going all out

2) she has been his student for a very long time and has already learned a whole ton from him. I'd argue current Jean would not really be under 90s Xavier when it comes to TP skill and smarts. If it's Xavier for his entire run then sure she'd be below him in those areas but 90s Xavier I would not put below him

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#31 Edited by Koays (12224 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: so why would we assume that if Magnetos psyche changed Onslaughts powers, his power levels would still only be Xavier level?

What direct feat scales Jean to Onslaught?

What happens if this battle is on the Astral plane?

How does Jean's solo defense compare to base onslaughts offense?

It's a lot to consider especially in R2.

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#32 Posted by mm7910 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: yes she will be angry, but not Phoenix angry. It will be an awesome fight to see but I think Onslaught is just too much for her in most cases.

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#33 Edited by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays said:

@onsipin: so why would we assume that if Magnetos psyche changed Onslaughts powers, his power levels would still only be Xavier level?

What direct feat scales Jean to Onslaught?

What happens if this battle is on the Astral plane?

How does Jean's solo defense compare to base onslaughts offense?

It's a lot to consider especially in R2.

Because in direct TP power it didn't show to be insanely high, it seemed like what a bloodlusted xavier's TP of the time would be like.

How does Jean's defense compare to Onslaught's offence? We already saw a weak and defeated 90s Jean still manage to hold out against Onslaught's probes, and her shields standing up to his TP assaults without too much strain in the x-men and avengers vs Onslaught fight? And that was a juiced up Onslaught.

What scales Jean to Onslaught? A low-mid / solid mid tier version of Jean already shielding her team from his TP while boosted up by Nate, who stated to be the most power psionic being in all realities in that very comic. Now we have current Jean at the peak of high tier with current Xavier. That scales pretty well IMO

What happens if it's on the astral plane? She fought the phalanx, fought with Xavier and team vs Shadow King, she fought Gamemaster on the astral plane etc. Jean has lots of experience on the astral plane, she even taught Cable and Betsy how to fight on the astral plane. I just don't see Xavier and Jean level people losing to unamped Onslaught

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#34 Posted by Koays (12224 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying that his dominance of the Astral plane and reality and basically dominating everyone even the villains points toward him being stronger then 90s Xavier at Base.

Jean's only point of comparison against Onslaught is that shes stronger then she was when they fought before but it's not easy for me to see her dominating this fight because all i can really see is that shes stronger then she was.

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#35 Posted by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: so you think base Onslaught is more powerful than people like Jean, Xavier and Rachel?

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#36 Edited by Stormcell (2101 posts) - - Show Bio

The Pink Phoenix/Galactus feat was total PIS. There was nowhere near enough power on that planet to even scratch an itch on Galactus. When the world devourer isn't being written badly, he sleeps in the core of stars and wields enough power to destroy the universe. Taking psionic energy from everyone on a planet isn't even going to come close to enough power to hurt Galactus.

Also, Pink Jean lost against Xavier Junior.

That said, Onslaught destroys Jean. He's far more powerful and far more skilled than she.

As far as 90s Jean vs. Onslaught, he creamed her. He shut her powers down when he only had access to a portion of Xavier's power.

One more thing, I don't know why people try to use the Gladiator vs. Jeen fight as meaning anything. Gladiator's power levels are never constant since its based on his confidence, and gets PIS'd all the time when he fights the X-Men. Jean has no feats to compete with Gladiator at his best while other X-Men like Colossus, Cannonball, and Gambit fared far better against Gladiator than Jean did with Remy literally knocking the G-Man out for a while.

Given all of this, I'll admit that Jean could beat Gladiator telepathically without PIS if she were given the opportunity to get into his head. He's weak against telepathic foes.

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#37 Posted by martinceld (1351 posts) - - Show Bio

R1 - Onslaught. He was causing explosions that were wiping out buildings. Jean's shield may not protect her long enough to siphon energy to be able to go psi form on him. I'm rusty on her shield feats though so I can be swayed if someone can show me her shields can withstand his attacks

R2 - Jean. She is superior to that iteration of Xavier

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#38 Posted by Stormcell (2101 posts) - - Show Bio

R1 - Onslaught. He was causing explosions that were wiping out buildings. Jean's shield may not protect her long enough to siphon energy to be able to go psi form on him. I'm rusty on her shield feats though so I can be swayed if someone can show me her shields can withstand his attacks

R2 - Jean. She is superior to that iteration of Xavier

Actually, Jean is nowhere near as strong as 80s/90s Xavier. That is when he was at his best. His huge feats came from this era and Jean can't compete with them.

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#39 Posted by martinceld (1351 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: oh you're that cancer everyone talks about. *blocks*

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#40 Posted by Stormcell (2101 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: oh you're that cancer everyone talks about. *blocks*

Uh-huh.

1) When Jean is standing on a moon, projects her astral form planetside to have a psychic conversation with Galactus, and then psi-links all 8,000,000,000 minds scattered across the globe with Galactus, come back and talk to me. 80s/90s Xavier did this. https://imgur.com/a/bNYQ1

2) When Jean Grey can battle Dark Phoenix on all the infinite planes of existence simultaneously, come back and talk to me. 80s/90s Xavier did this. https://imgur.com/a/aFv5f

3) When Jean Grey can stretch her mind out across space to gather all the minds on a planet for a mindblast against Ego, The Living Planet, come back and talk to me. 80s/90s Xavier can do this: http://i.imgur.com/wRgRg4s.jpg

4) Here, 80s/90s Xavier telepathically contacts the X-Men from half a star system away: http://i.imgur.com/s5vGtPP.jpg

Jean Grey is nowhere near as strong as Xavier from this era.

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#41 Posted by Koays (12224 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: Honestly yes. I consider Onslaught on the lower end of Godtier. With his higher end feats being telepathy more diverse then most of the X-paths have.

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#42 Edited by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: if you feel that way then that's fine but I can't agree with it. In pure telepathy I don't think he is that powerful. He's still below Xavier, Jean and Rachel

Jean with Cable's help was already able to shield vs Onslaught amped by Nate. It is not the same as Quire blocking a passive giant aoe tp aura from Red Onslaught, this is him directly engaging the x-men and avengers, Jean and Cable are directly shielding their team from super amped Onslaught, with Jean carrying much of the load as Cable as Cable has the techno virus which he even mentions in this same issue that it takes all his concentration to keep in under control

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#43 Posted by Koays (12224 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: Yea but heres the thing, do you think Jean and Cable were equal to amped Onslaughts power levels or were just able to defend against him?

Blocking his mind control is great dont get me wrong, but my view of Onslaught is that most of his feats are pure TP at broken levels and that theres basically nothing Jean or anyone short of Xavier could do on the astral plane against him.

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#44 Posted by del_torro (3900 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: half of the feats you mentioned happened post Onslaught, so onslaught doesn't get access to the.

*Skrull feat and Ego feat

The Dark Phoenix feat is basically Xavier + Jean Vs Phoenix, he admitted he would lose without her. It was shown in Excalibur that Phoenix can casually stomp Xavier and trap him in a mental loop for hours.

The last feat is a cool range feat, but range doesn't always prove superior prove superiority. Sinister has whack range feats but would beat the Cuckoos who have planetary range

Cassandra Nova has poor range feats, yet dominated Xavier, Emma , Jean and Rachel who all have planetary range feats.

Rachel can project across galaxy's but can be beaten by Emma frost

Psylocke has planetary range but is inferior to Exodus

Legion (tyrannix personality) can project thousands of light-years but was being overwhelmed by Red skull/Emma and the Cuckoos

Jean herself has planetary range feats of scanning for people,

has absorbed psionic energy from the inhabitants of a planet,

has drained a being that had 10 billion minds,

has Subconsciously projected psi constructs around the world and on the moon,

has channeled pain from around the world

has called out to Xmen around the planet,

Even a depowered Jean grey who barely has telepathy at the beginning of X-Factor can link all the minds in two cities and gather their psionic energy

so it's not hard to see why some believe she can take on onslaught when a weaker version of her was able to block and hold him off twice. The second time being when he was amped by Nate grey and Franklin Richards.

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#45 Posted by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: no, but base Onslaught? Vs current Jean who was putting omega levels in the infirmary just from making contact with her, sending out psychic projections around the globe that were fighting teams of x-men, who housed Xavier's brain and he said it was impossible, broke through Emma's defenses and diamond form and so on? Yes, that Jean I believe would be above Onslaught in power. And Jean by now should be above 90s Xavier in skill or at the very least equal, so yes Jean should win.

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#46 Posted by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro: what's your view of these rounds if I may ask

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#47 Posted by pastepotpete1 (3522 posts) - - Show Bio

jean loses ... with franklin richards he is like up to galactus level ... i have seen jean grey fight aliens soliders and she got nerfed .. i dont know what the fuss is about jean grey .. when she was the " green phoenix" she lost to magneto he used a bottle effect on her .. onslaught is a combo of mags and jean together

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#48 Posted by PyroFN (7022 posts) - - Show Bio

@pastepotpete1: Okay. I think I will answer you.

1) “with franklin richards he is like up to galactus level”

A Teenage Jean Grey has psionically drained Galactus, Phoenix, and an alien worlds inhabitants psionic energy to knock him down in a single punch.

2) “ i have seen jean grey fight aliens soliders and she got nerfed”

What are you talking about?

3) “i dont know what the fuss is about jean grey ”

Omega-Level Mutant, training from Charles Xavier her whole life to the point where Xavier had nothing left to teach her, caught the Phoenix Force attention as a child because of her vast telepathic potential, scares Cassandra Nova who hijacked Xavier on Cerebro, reputed as the most powerful psychic in the X-Men by the current writers, the current editor, and on panel, etc. Should I keep going?

4) “when she was the " green phoenix" she lost to magneto he used a bottle effect on her ”

Here are some things you gotta realize, and if you’d like, you can go in to the link to the respect thread for the Phoenix to see proof of my explanation:

•The 1st instance- Phoenix had just saved the universe from destruction by the M’Kraan Crystal, a multiversal level object. That experience tired her out incredibly, so in order to be comfortable in handling her new abilities, there were psychic circuit breakers installed to cut-off her powers before they reach the cosmic levels comparable to her M’Kraan Crystal feat. That is what happened in the Magneto fight. She was winning the fight until those circuit breakers kicked in. Everyone forgets that context, so I don’t blame the misinformation.

•2nd instance- That was an imposter on Kick. At the time, Jean was under judgement by the Phoenix to see how worthy of a host she’d be truly. Thereby, Jean also mentioned that she doesn’t know how long the Phoenix will let her stay, implying that the Phoenix allowed Jean to die when Xorn made that planetary level stroke. Unless you can explain to me how a being who can travel to the middle of a Star and who had just been near the surface of the sun had died to a planetary level stroke.

You can find Jeans Phoenix feats here under her section. It will have the explanation of the Magneto fights.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/phoenix-force/4005-2164/forums/fire-and-life-incarnate-a-phoenix-force-and-the-on-2017620/

5) “onslaught is a combo of mags and jean together”

Correction: Onslaught is a combination of Magneto’s hatred for humanity and Xavier’s irritation for humanity’s stubborn nature, as well as Xavier’s psychic abilities. Though it is still heavily debated, there is argument to say that Jean is more powerful than Charles Xavier.

Online
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#49 Posted by del_torro (3900 posts) - - Show Bio

@onsipin: While I believe Jean has massively improved from the 90s,and now a top tier Telepath. I feel that is Onslaught has his own feats in addition to All of Xaviers feats up to that period, then he likely wins, or stalemate her atleast.

If Onslaught strictly his own feats, then I think Jean has a chance of winning

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#50 Posted by onsipin (783 posts) - - Show Bio