Her defenses against Nova were impressive. But Jean isnt so powerful that shes winning here. Especially with the zero offense shes shown since she came back. You wanna argue defense that's fine, but there is just nothing she has offensively to hang with the two of them.
@lordofallhumans: Lol no, but this whole "Jean Grey defended against Nova, so that means she has the TP strength to beat two psychics trailing or matching her in skill and strength respectively" thing needs to stop.
I mean I'm willing to argue this is a tough fight for both sides do to emma and Rachel's lacks, but its a 2v1 and so without assuming Jean's current offense we have to use her previous offense feats, which basically leaves her back where this was before.
@koays: her offensive feats include much of the same as them plus the added bonus of creating telepathic illusions that can fight for her. She did this in Black Sun, while simultaneously performing other complexed telepathic feats. Her offensive feats count tearing Emma's mind apart from inside her own, after barging effortlessly into a locked portion of it, and now she's supposed to be more powerful than that, increasing the potency of the skills she already possessed. The only real threat would be Rachel's power, not Emma's skill, and Rachel is the least skilled here and apparently becoming increasingly susceptible to telepathic invasion.
@lordofallhumans: All true, but replicating those feats here especially with Rachel's feats of fighting multiple levels with Exodus or both her and Emma's feats of cloaking from Xavier. But Jean is not so above Emma in skill that Emma is not a threat. So even if it wasnt debatable comparing Jean an Emma in skill and Jean was ranked above her, it wouldnt mean Emma's feats of blocking or disrupting psychics wouldnt save Rachel or allow time cod a powerful shot to get through. And the longer this battle goes on the harder it's going to be for Jean to negate Emma's skill and Rachel's power feats.
Really as long as Emma keeps Rachel alive they have this.
@koays: except Emma has never successfully defended herself from Jean in a confrontation, let alone shown she can disrupt her powers. When has Emma's skill ever made her a threat to Jean? The answer is a resounding never.
Edit: and I ain't talking bout that damn kid one either. I'm mean adult Jean lol.
@lordofallhumans: In all of the one fight they had? Never. But are we really saying that Emma can't even touch Jean when she touched Exodus? When she touched Xavier? When she touched Sinister? And are we gonna say she cant touch her while Rachel is fighting Jean too? I just dont see it because it would mean people with feats of going at Jean's closest rival aren't able to apply them against her, which would place her above Xavier decisively.
@koays: She couldn't touch Jean before she died and they both have been written stronger since then. There's no reason to think she can do it now, unless you're implying Jean can't hang with the ones you mentioned. Unless I missed something the only Exodus fight was a stalemate prep feat, considering Dust's attack was endgame. So she's duked it out straight up with Xavier no prep or surprises? She can't use any of that in a straight up psi brawl in the forums. I'm still trying to figure out when Sinister became the telepath to beat? Is there really any evidence that he was above her to begin with? If I'm not mistaken only fans are indecisive about Jean, Emma and Xavier. The source material and the people that write it, decided a while ago. I'm sorry but Rachel isn't really a factor to me in this, she'll bring power and low self esteem because Jean's presence infantilizes her. I don't see them getting through her defenses without some elaborate Emma trap, that they can't use in this fight.
@elpendejo: she does and the skill to use it. Emma can't beat Jean. Her skill has never mattered when it came to them and her power levels aren't going to help or add to what Rachel already has. Rachel is raw power and decent skill. Jean is raw power and mastery. She doesn't stomp but I don't see her losing.
Emma is no match for Jean in power. Rachel is no match for Jean in skill. The only way Emma and Rachel are winning is if Rachel puts her power to Emma like the Cuckoos did in battle of atom. Other than that, they will lose because Rachel cannot really stand up to Jean.
Rachel is losing to mesmero three times
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Loses to No-Girl
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Get's taken over by Cassandra. She was taken by surprise so being taken over easily is not a point against her, but she was unable to break free and Cassandra didn't seen to show the slightest hint of trouble keeping her under her control
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Jean takes her out without effort. Jean says Rachel was holding back but based on the context it seems she was pulling her punches, not really having to do with how easily Jean took her out. Not to mention Jean says she also did not want to hurt Rachel so holding back too
@corapvp: Yea, that's nice but let's observe context for all of those showings.
1. She lost to Mesmero yes. But she did that after having her senses and abilities heightened. Every one of those "losses" has Mesmero commenting on how vulnerable she was post power up. Hell the comment is in those scans.
And again this is Mesmero, show me a low end fear for him and I'll show you him controlling 2 Phoenix host and 2 seperate X-teams. The only thing that's changed is that no one thought he was a telepath.
2. No-girl is a non feat. Rachel not only blows through Spidermans mind when No-Girl tried to block her, but she blows back No-Girl herself and then figures out who the traitor on the team was. No girl literally attacks her from behind as shes walking up to call out Ernst.
3- This is Cassandra Nova. The chick that has attacked Xavier and Jean just by them.touching her mind with cerebro devices. There are literally only 2 feats against her from unamped telepaths and that's Jean defending against her TP and Emma resisting and breaking free of her mindscrew.
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For Rachel its not about being on par with Jean. Jean is more skilled then her on a bad day. But Rachel has power. And it's not even a question if shes strong enough to hurt Jean because Jean admitted she was and weve seen what she can do. She spent an entire run getting tampered with by Mesmero, and then mind rapes 4 X-Men and oneshots Psylocke. She hung with Exodus, hid from Xavier and stomped X.Jr.
All she needs to do in this fight is bring the power
Emma is no match for Jean in power. Rachel is no match for Jean in skill. The only way Emma and Rachel are winning is if Rachel puts her power to Emma like the Cuckoos did in battle of atom. Other than that, they will lose because Rachel cannot really stand up to Jean.
Rachel is losing to mesmero three times
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Loses to No-Girl
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Get's taken over by Cassandra. She was taken by surprise so being taken over easily is not a point against her, but she was unable to break free and Cassandra didn't seen to show the slightest hint of trouble keeping her under her control
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Jean takes her out without effort. Jean says Rachel was holding back but based on the context it seems she was pulling her punches, not really having to do with how easily Jean took her out. Not to mention Jean says she also did not want to hurt Rachel so holding back too
you've made a grave mistake by coming for Rachel. Koays will knock you out like everybody knocks out Rachel
But yeah as they've mentioned, those particular instances had context to it
@marvelfan1992: Lol I warned you all before. The day Psylocke or Quire rank higher then Rachel, is the day I reveal all of our secrets and lowball every psychic until Monet and Karma are the only ones left with feats....
So basically I'll take away everyones feats and make them look like Stryfe.
@koays: Mesmero was not a telepath back then, this is a retcon or new development of his power. He lost his powers during M-day and gained in back off-book so perhaps this has something to do with how he is now a telepath, so that could be used as a co-out for the change so his high end feats you mentioned are not telepathy it was his hypnosis power. And even if her mind was "in flux", she got a power up, so to lose to Mesmero who is not even a notable telepath as far as we know, is still pretty bad. But not as bad as I initially made it out to be you got me there I did not consider the situation fully
Here is the Rachel - Martha fight again. You are right she initially blasts through them, but Martha fights back and clearly Rachel is struggling directly against her. Struggling against Martha is a bad showing. The final takedown of her was while she had her back turned true, but that also shows how incompetent Rachel can be. She is being engaged by Martha and just turns her back on her in the middle of their fight, not very bright.
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Yes Cassandra Nova is a beast, but X-Men Red is one of the most up to date ways to comparing Jean and Rachel. Nova no effort was holding Rachel despite Rachel fighting back. Nova could not even touch Jean until she had stretched her mind too thin and even then was not able to attack her. Let's not forget how Cassandra was not able to see passed the illusion of Jean. She had Cerebro amp but she also let her defenses down. The thing with Rachel harming Jean seemed more like it was with regards to Telekinesis though as that was how Rachel was attacking, but I can't prove this so I won't fight that point. You are right about Rachel's power though she is strong. But I would not count beating Xavier Jr. as a high-end feat. He wasn't all that impressive, the only thing he did was take over the Cuckoos hive-mind and that was because he took them by surprise based on what one of the Cuckoos said. The past version of Emma Frost in one of the time-travel arcs in X-Men Blue beat him pretty easily, and this is an Emma from quite a long time ago so a lot less good than current Emma. Teen Jean was even able to match his telepathy, she was blocking her whole team from his TP. For all Rachel's power, she seems to go down pretty often. There's also Madelyn one-shotting her like it was nothing. I just don't think she can compete with Jean. As I said the only way Rachel and Emma can win is if they combine powers and let Emma take the lead with Rachel just boosting her. If they don't do that then Rachel gets taken down pretty quickly. I can see Jean pulling off the same thing Madelyne did. A big surge of telepathy power to take her out of the fight instantly.
Where did Emma beat Cassandra's hold on her? That's sounds like a great feat
@del_torro you are right thank you for the correction I forgot about that
@marvelfan1992 I don't hate Rachel if that is what you're implying. I just don't think she can hang with Jean in terms of telepathy with the amount of times she's lost to telepaths in recent years, including D-list telepaths. TK is another story though. Nothing Jean has shown can match her Providence and black hole feats
@corapvp: Rachel still has impressive feats like one shotting Psylocke, keeping Quentin Quire on a psychic leash, masking from Xavier, telepathically taking out millions of sentient nano sentinels that had spread throughout a city.
Xavier jnr was pretty much above teen Jean, he basically ignored her psychic attacks in Xmen Blue, so Rachel beating him is pretty good. Plus we don't know how strong that alternate universe Emma was (the dangerous times they lived in could have honed her skills).
In the end Rachel was able to beat Mesmero. (plus it took him a long time of acting as a psychic virus in her mind to build control. It's basically what mastermind did to Phoenix, or what Emma did to Xavier or Legion, doesn't outright mean that he is stronger), and she has stalemated Exodus (someone who outright tanked a psi blast from Xavier, was draining Nate grey and could fight Emma frost)
Rachel has enough raw power that if Emma tapped into it and combined it with her skill, it should be enough to challenge Jean. Plus Emma has psychic viruses that have taken down Legion before, they could team up and plant it in jeans mind of the find an opening.
@corapvp: 1- Mesmero as a telepath basically is unseated. We cant gauge the value of him except by Rachel saying that he was low tier.
And even then the nature of her power up, making her so sensitive she was reading the minds of characters all over Marvel non stop...basically reinforces what Mesmero said. That she was vulnerable.
That doesnt mean Mesmero can take Rachel in a 1v1 without the edge.
2. Martha's next highest showing after this is penetrating Emma Frost diamond form, and after that breaking the Cuckoos free from a Quire trap.
Shes a D List telepath because shes so obscure. Not because shes weak. And considering Rachel had just found out that a student was working for Mr. Sinister...I dont entirely judge her for switching focus.
3- Rachel's one on one record gives her feats against Xavierand Exodus, and feats of trashing and combating psychics with high tier feats.
She let's her guard down yes. Shes got more then a few feats of being surprise attacked. But shes more then proven that shes powerful enough to take on the other high tiers. Jean isnt a tier above Exodus, Xavier or Xavier Jr, she scales higher but she is NOT untouchable by them and therefore not untouchable by Rachel.
4- Your missing the point, because first off No one is saying Rachel can beat Jean in a fair fight. In fact the opposite is what has been said by me and others.
What IS being said is that Rachel is strong enough to harm Jean. Especially if Jean is also dealing with Emma. Which is kinda what your arguing.
You cant downplay Xavier Jr, because he not only controlled the cuckoos, he was battling Jean and mind controlling all of his teammates at the same time. While projecting a psionic illusion that was also stomping people. She oneshot him and left him a bloody mess.... That an alternate version of Emma beat him means nothing considering our Emma in that same Era was considered on Xaviers level and that that version of Emma's Gen X hadnt beaten the Evil Brotherhood already.
You cant downplay Exodus because she was shielding minds from him while battling him on multiple levels.
You cant downplay Xavier because he couldnt see through her cloak and she could clearly see through his.
You cant downplay Psylocke because shes tanked Shadowking attacks and she knew it was Rachel.
You cant downplay Quire because he was left bloody.
In a similar instance Rachel was able to KO a psychic powerful enough to control two sides of a war at once. And even after admitting she was weaker then him, was still powerful enough to split her power in half with Rogue and slave the psychics mind.
Rachel's raw power makes it so in a fair fight she can hang with pretty much anyone even if it's a loss.
5. Again its Nova. Jean has one unamped feat against her and zero actual offense. We have hyped and backed this as a great showing, which it is, but it doesn't mean that Jean's offensive feats go up a tier because of it.
The Maddie thing is a joke since she was supposedly dead 3 times over when she attacked Rachel. If your argument is that sneak attacks decide your strength as a telepath then we really need to reexamine how we view everyone ESPECIALLY Jean.
So again, Rachel vs Jean isnt a question. But whether Jean's defense can stand against Rachel's offense alongside Emma is. Especially considering Rachel's preferred method attack is the opposite of Jeans.
Team takes this, but Jean drags it out with defense feats.
*Emma was under a suggestion from Nova for the majority of Whedons Astonishing run. When Nova was finally freed, she tried to get Emma to swap her body and Emma was able to pull herself free.
This is a real close match-up. With perfect teamwork, they could just about be on par with Jean. The question is:
Does Emma have the skill to protect herself and Rachel at the same time? This is important because how long Rachel can withstand a hit from a powerful psychic attack will determine the fate of this battle. Either can hit Jean all they like with their psychic abilities, but not only do we know that Jeans shields are busted, but Jean herself takes hits that should have killed the second they hit her.
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More numbers doesn't always mean a surefire win. If Rachel goes down at all during the fight, and based on how well Emma protects her teammates in a psychic brawl, I am confident Rachel will go down, Jean wins. Never underestimate Jean Grey, because then she always ends up pulling out her ' WTF' card. Its her gun in a rock, paper, scissors match.
This is a real close match-up. With perfect teamwork, they could just about be on par with Jean. The question is:
Does Emma have the skill to protect herself and Rachel at the same time? This is important because how long Rachel can withstand a hit from a powerful psychic attack will determine the fate of this battle. Either can hit Jean all they like with their psychic abilities, but not only do we know that Jeans shields are busted, but Jean herself takes hits that should have killed the second they hit her.
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More numbers doesn't always mean a surefire win. If Rachel goes down at all during the fight, and based on how well Emma protects her teammates in a psychic brawl, I am confident Rachel will go down, Jean wins. Never underestimate Jean Grey, because then she always ends up pulling out her ' WTF' card. Its her gun in a rock, paper, scissors match.
@koays: her offensive feats include much of the same as them plus the added bonus of creating telepathic illusions that can fight for her. She did this in Black Sun, while simultaneously performing other complexed telepathic feats. Her offensive feats count tearing Emma's mind apart from inside her own, after barging effortlessly into a locked portion of it, and now she's supposed to be more powerful than that, increasing the potency of the skills she already possessed. The only real threat would be Rachel's power, not Emma's skill, and Rachel is the least skilled here and apparently becoming increasingly susceptible to telepathic invasion.
Me:
1) Jean had Psylocke's TP added to her own in Black Sun. It doesn't count.
2) If you are referring to Jean ripping through Emma's mind during Morrisons run, that doesn't count since she was being boosted by the Phoenix Force at the time.
@corapvp:Teen Jean never matched Xavier Jr.'s power. She was only able to temporarily shield the minds of her teammates from him, and acknowledged him to be her superior. Hence, that is why she ran away from him to find Xavier so he could deal with junior because she couldn't. Of course, a past, weaker version of Emma came along and dealt with him before Jeen could find Xavier.
@Everyone. Jean lost to Nova...and I doubt Nova was anywhere near as powerful in Red as she was under Morrison.
That said, a non-PIS'd Emma could take Jean alone telepathically, but lose to Jean if its her diamond form against Jean's TK. If Emma makes it into a TP battle before Jean can let loose with a TK assault, it's curtains for the red-head since she'd be too busy with the TP duel to use her TK. Emma plus Rachel against Jean is a total overkill and Jean would get slaughtered.
Anyway, not gonna get too invested in this debate.
Emma > Jean in skill, And with Rachel’s added power they can win.
Emma has the skill to contend with Xavier and Cassandra but she is usually lacking in telepathic power (she isn’t weak, she just isn’t on Xavier’s level in raw tp power)
@koays: her offensive feats include much of the same as them plus the added bonus of creating telepathic illusions that can fight for her. She did this in Black Sun, while simultaneously performing other complexed telepathic feats. Her offensive feats count tearing Emma's mind apart from inside her own, after barging effortlessly into a locked portion of it, and now she's supposed to be more powerful than that, increasing the potency of the skills she already possessed. The only real threat would be Rachel's power, not Emma's skill, and Rachel is the least skilled here and apparently becoming increasingly susceptible to telepathic invasion.
Me:
1) Jean had Psylocke's TP added to her own in Black Sun. It doesn't count.
2) If you are referring to Jean ripping through Emma's mind during Morrisons run, that doesn't count since she was being boosted by the Phoenix Force at the time.
@corapvp:Teen Jean never matched Xavier Jr.'s power. She was only able to temporarily shield the minds of her teammates from him, and acknowledged him to be her superior. Hence, that is why she ran away from him to find Xavier so he could deal with junior because she couldn't. Of course, a past, weaker version of Emma came along and dealt with him before Jeen could find Xavier.
@Everyone. Jean lost to Nova...and I doubt Nova was anywhere near as powerful in Red as she was under Morrison.
That said, a non-PIS'd Emma could take Jean alone telepathically, but lose to Jean if its her diamond form against Jean's TK. If Emma makes it into a TP battle before Jean can let loose with a TK assault, it's curtains for the red-head since she'd be too busy with the TP duel to use her TK. Emma plus Rachel against Jean is a total overkill and Jean would get slaughtered.
Anyway, not gonna get too invested in this debate.
Psylocke has Jeans telekinesis but nobody's complaining.
Do you have any on panel statements that Jan lost the amp? I'm pretty sure the only statements we've gotten are that Jean is grown even stronger.
- Even if we call that Jean that couldn't fly in space or survive in the sun or lift 5o tons Phoenix (which is ridiculous and you know it) . We still have Jean knocking down Phoenix Emma with a psi blast, and Jeans ghost Stomping Emma, so, yeah.
-Nova not being able to beat a stronger than New X-Men Jean suddenly translates to her being nerfed. Wow.
Despite Nova doing things like shielding from a hurricane, incinerating people with a handwave, blowing up heads across the continent, masking from Jean, regeneration from having her jaw punched off, controlling hundreds of people, planting psychic suggestions in storms mind (despite storms ever present mental defenses) and making Rachel (who just received a power amp) her pet.
Wow, how nerfed of her
Want to show scans of Nova beating Jean in a telepathic battle? Because all I remember I'd Nova being unable to do anything to Jeans mind. Unless you're talking about a telekinetic battle where Jean wasn't trying to kill her.
Lol, of course, all the times that Jan took down Emma are all PIS, and all the times that Emma took down Jean are canon. Oh wait, Emma never took down Jean.
@koays: His argument depends on him saying Nova was nerfed in red which is a stupid argument with the feats that she had in red. Without it modern Jean scales above pre-fall of Shiar Xavier and modern Emma. He’s beyond help.
And you know something, 90s Emma and early 90s Jean were at the same level of power according to Storm(a statement he used to back his arguments) By that statement, Emma wouldn’t have faired any better than Jean against Exodus plus Jean would’ve been more powerful than Emma by the time Jean went back to her Phoenix costume
This is a real close match-up. With perfect teamwork, they could just about be on par with Jean. The question is:
Does Emma have the skill to protect herself and Rachel at the same time? This is important because how long Rachel can withstand a hit from a powerful psychic attack will determine the fate of this battle. Either can hit Jean all they like with their psychic abilities, but not only do we know that Jeans shields are busted, but Jean herself takes hits that should have killed the second they hit her.
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More numbers doesn't always mean a surefire win. If Rachel goes down at all during the fight, and based on how well Emma protects her teammates in a psychic brawl, I am confident Rachel will go down, Jean wins. Never underestimate Jean Grey, because then she always ends up pulling out her ' WTF' card. Its her gun in a rock, paper, scissors match.
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