Jean Grey runs an X-Verse telekinesis gauntlet

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Posted by marvelfan1992 (3174 posts) 3 months, 28 days ago

Poll: Jean Grey runs an X-Verse telekinesis gauntlet (18 votes)

Stops at 1 0%
Stops at 2 0%
Stops at 3 0%
Stops at 4 0%
Stops at 5 0%
Stops at 6 11%
Stops at 7 0%
Stops at 8 17%
Stops at 9 39%
Clears 33%

How far does Jean get in a purely telekinetic gauntlet?

All characters are bloodlusted, but no internal attacks like crushing organs, snapping spines/necks, giving an aneurysm/stroke.

More of a drawn-out fight like how they usually go in comics

No phoenix for anyone, and no pink/purple mode for both Jean and Lil Jean (lol)

1) Quentin Quire

2) Hellion

3) Teen Jean

4) Psylocke

5) Candra

6) Stryfe

7) Exodus

8) Rachel Grey

9) Pre-Shaman Nate Grey

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio

6

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#3 Posted by PyroFN (6868 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey @koays, @psy-scarlet’s got jokes!

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#4 Posted by PyroFN (6868 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyways, I believe she stops at Nate, that is, if she does stop. She matched Life-seed Nate Grey with her tk multiple times throughout Disassembled without being overwhelmed when she actually fought him rather than trying to reason with him, so technically, pre-Shaman Nate should be less of a problem.

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#5 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by PyroFN (6868 posts) - - Show Bio

Current Jean losing to Stryfe, who in @koays own words: Still, has no feats!!!!

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#7 Posted by AsheTDust (1897 posts) - - Show Bio

stops at Rachel.

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#8 Posted by ElPendejo (1705 posts) - - Show Bio

I say she clears it stops at Nate

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#9 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn said:

Hey @koays, @psy-scarlet’s got jokes!

LMFAO!

Wtf? Strye doesn't have feats to even say he has TK....



Honestly Exodus would give Jean hell.

She stops pretty hard at Rachel.

And has absolutely nothing but shields for Nate.....wait, PRE-Shaman Nate??? She stomps him because he's an idiot


*@marvelfan1992- How is Teen Jean above Hellion?

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#10 Posted by marvelfan1992 (3174 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: because I said so! Honestly I haven't seen much of him aside from his short shorts at the beach

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#11 Edited by Stormcell (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe Candra is a stronger telekinetic than a non-Phoenix Force Jean Grey but lacks the opportunities to really show what she can do. For that reason I'll say that Jean clears Candra and stops at Stryfe. Cable/Stryfe/X-Man are all more powerful than Jean which is why Sinister created Madelyne Pryor. He wanted the Jean clone to have a child with Scott to produce a progeny more powerful than either parent. The only reason Cable is weaker than Jean is because of the techno-virus. Stryfe has a weaker infection of the virus, therefore he's much stronger than Jean.

As far as Exodus is concerned, when taken at his best, he's a strong enough telekinetic to crush the entire island nation of Genosha which is over 1,000 square miles. Jean doesn't come anywhere near that kind of power.

Regarding Rachel, Jean is generally written as a better telepath than her, but Rachel is undoubtably the stronger telekinetic between the two.

Nate Grey stomps Jean telekinetically.

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#12 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: He's possibly an omega-level telekintic, with molecular feats, who Blocked shots from Nimrod and flew from Texas to New York in minutes. Hellion is ridiculous.

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#13 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: Stryfe has less TK feats then even Candra. There's no proof that he's stronger then Jean and his struggles against Cable and Nate have shown doubt that he's any where near them.

Bloodties is an outlier for Exodus. But his regular feats put his offense well within Jean's shield range

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#14 Edited by Stormcell (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays said:

@stormcell: Stryfe has less TK feats then even Candra. There's no proof that he's stronger then Jean and his struggles against Cable and Nate have shown doubt that he's any where near them.

Bloodties is an outlier for Exodus. But his regular feats put his offense well within Jean's shield range

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Marvel messed up with Exodus. Granted, Bloodties did have a lot of PIS in it with the way the story handled Storm, Xavier, and Sersi (anyone of these three should have been able to take Exodus down even at his Bloodties level) to prop the bad guy up as being a threat, however, the TK levels he displayed there made him a massively powerful foe that could stop any X-Man outside of Storm, Xavier, or Emma (while Exodus can beat both Xavier and Emma physically with his TK powers, Bloodties stated Xavier to be a more powerful psi than Exodus even in this outlier instance for him, and I believe Emma can stop him telepathically). The X-Men need a powerful foe that wields the power of Bloodties Exodus since their villains are now a bunch of weaklings compared to the heroes.

Anywho, I was only making the argument of Stryfe on the account of him being a clone of Cable with a weaker infection of the TO virus. We saw a story where Cable was completely cured of the virus and he was able to go toe-to-to with the Silver Surfer in a really tough battle. But, again, we don't know the extent to which the virus is weakening Stryfe. However, we do know that Jean was completely at his mercy in X-Cutioner (or whatever that story arc was back in the 90s).

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#15 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: Stryfe doesn't have the TO virus at all. He's done nothing to say that he could combat current Jean who is something like 3 tiers above 1992 Jean from X-Cutioner's Song. And his battles with Cable and X-Factor have pretty much enforced this.

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#16 Edited by PyroFN (6868 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: Maybe in her casual range, when she is not ready for it. A serious ready to fight Jean,

life-seed Nate says, “Hello”.

A crumbling mountain cave in X-Factor 1 says “good day”.

Avalon asks,”How are you?”

The Empire State Buildings Antenna says, “Hey, I’m here too!”

We have more on the guest list, too, but I’m pretty sure you already memorized that list dozens of times.

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#17 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: Sure, but if we assume he used tk to wipe out the churches Lifeseed Nates offense then hes so far above everyone else you could fit a planet in between to say nothing about his shields tanking basically the entire X-Men roster circa 76->2019

Unless were talking Pre-Shaman, because I'm pretty sure that she could he him solidly do to his over dependence on Rushing and raw power blast.

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#18 Posted by geekryan (5498 posts) - - Show Bio

Clears but has some difficulty in rounds 7-9

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#19 Edited by Stormcell (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays said:

@stormcell: Stryfe doesn't have the TO virus at all. He's done nothing to say that he could combat current Jean who is something like 3 tiers above 1992 Jean from X-Cutioner's Song. And his battles with Cable and X-Factor have pretty much enforced this.

Marvel is run by a bunch of hacks, then. If Stryfe seriously doesn't have the techno-virus impeding his power levels, then Marvel is really messing up by not having him a Silver Surfer-level character. The X-Men need foes of that power calibur badly. With all the PIS going on at this company, its a wonder fans can have discussions like this.

:::shakes head:::

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#20 Posted by ElPendejo (1705 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: Your logic is all jacked up. Jean can’t beat Exodus, but Emma who’s stated to be as powerful as Jean(which at that time by feats is not believable at all) can? And according to Claremont Jean’s tk is more powerful than Rachel’s.

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#21 Posted by PyroFN (6868 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: I didn’t exactly think that him destroying the churches was his tk. I figured he merely had reality warping, though we could assume his tk is subatomic, which turns it into a form of reality warping. That said, we also did discuss that Jeans psychic phenomena around the world could’ve been just as much tk displays as they are telepathic. (Aka the fire at the lake) So the gap can’t be that large if such is the case, unless we are gonna say that her feats were totally telepathic in nature in Phoenix Resurrection. In fact, going further, there was a psychic phenomena on the moon where Dark Phoenix perished, extending Jeans range with her tk that far. That isn’t to say that she is over Nate, since Nate created his own reality, but it isn’t entirely unbelievable to see Jean match Nate in tk. And if we remember Jeans feats back in Phoenix Resurrection, her subconscious illusions solo’d X-Men around the world. I’m quite sure that though Nate is the most powerful, there are few that are in the gap to catch up to him and fend him off.

But I may have second thoughts about Pre-Shaman Nate.

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#22 Posted by cosmic_reign (3771 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably rd 6

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#23 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: Global molecular + TK casually is just another tier, unless we said everything Jean did in Ressurection was pure telekinesis and not general psionics. It's hard to say that he was reality warping reality, though it would explain the dinosaurs, but that seems more in line with the lifeseeds abilities.

Regardless even if we assume Jean's power levels to be around Nate's, it's the feats that hurt her in that match up with his higher levels. Since pretty much Everyone from Exodus up has feats above her strongest offensive or defensive shielding norms.

Shes still shit stomping PreShaman Nate though and I'll argue that point hard.

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#24 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

Also I'd just like to remind everyone....Stryfe has no feats.

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#25 Edited by Stormcell (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

@elpendejo said:

@stormcell: Your logic is all jacked up. Jean can’t beat Exodus, but Emma who’s stated to be as powerful as Jean(which at that time by feats is not believable at all) can? And according to Claremont Jean’s tk is more powerful than Rachel’s.

Rachel has better TK feats than Jean which trumps anything Claremont may have said...unless Rachel had some sort of Phoenix Force echo in her the time when she held up a city telekinetically and the other instance when she created a miniature black hole. Personally, I always thought Rachel had a portion of the Phoenix in her when she pulled these two feats, but others disagree.

That said, not all writers agree on each character's power levels when they write the titles. Furthermore, there have been several stories to say that Emma was at least equal to Jean in terms of power level, and even Claremont and Morrison agreed that the two were comparable in power, however, I consider those stories and statements to devalue Emma based on her having better feats than Jean.

Finally, I'm not saying that Jean is weak. I think she's a powerful mutant. It's just when it comes to her vs. Exodus, I can't get out of my head how much he dwarfed her in "Bloodties" and throughout the 90s. While I'll admit that Jean has grown stronger since then, I haven't seen her come anywhere near the power levels Exodus displayed on Genosha. Then on top of that, Xavier was stated to be more powerful than Exodus during "Bloodties" despite everything Exodus did there, plus Prof. X has plenty of feats to back that claim. That only widens the gulf between Xavier and Jean in my mind on top of Xavier having better feats than Jean.

But, anyway, this is a discussion about ranking telekinetics, so Xavier and Emma have no place in this discussion.

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#26 Posted by PyroFN (6868 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: So, we are take what Claremont was about saying Jean’s tk is stronger than Rachel’s with a grain of salt, but we should pay close attention to him claiming that Phoenix was supposed to be as powerful as Storm?

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#27 Edited by Nathaniel_Adam (3873 posts) - - Show Bio

Where is Emma??

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#28 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_adam: In the Telepathy thread....with the power she actually has?

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#29 Edited by weatherwitch21 (814 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: how does she stop at Rachel

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#30 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@weatherwitch21: Jean has no real telekinetic offense above Rachel's shield feats but Rachel has alot of offense in the realm of Jean's Shield feats.

So as the more aggressive of the two Rachel would have alot more advantages to press here.

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#31 Posted by ElPendejo (1705 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: We have a direct comparison between Rachel and Jeans tk with Psylocke. When psylocke came back to life she output tk at a level Rachel couldn’t match. There’s no implication that Psylocke developed her own tk or that her brother improved her tk. If there was, he would’ve stated it. Psylocke was using Jeans old tk.

With the exception of obscure characters, marvel has been pretty clear about the hierarchy of telepaths since the 60s. Like I said before, it’s not the power levels that change with writers, the only real thing that changes from writer to writer is how much they use it or the range in which they can use it. I don’t recall a main telepath going from top tier to mid tier or a mid tier becoming top tier between writers unless there are reasons given.

Then get bloodties out of your head. Everyone’s said that Jean’s gotten far better than she was in that event. Again, it’s only proven when Nova couldn’t do anything to her mind telepathically in Red. And no, Nova was not written weaker. That’s a feat enough to put her above pre fall of shiar Xavier and comparable to current XavierX

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#32 Posted by onsipin (715 posts) - - Show Bio

Rachel has the better feats, but it's clear that Marvel/X-Men Team hold Jean above her and it's their intention that Jean>Rachel. Voted stops at Rachel just to let Rachel finally get some love, but I have no doubt the writers all hold Jean above her

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#33 Posted by comic_book_fan (11804 posts) - - Show Bio

stryfe should be 8 and she should stop with him.

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#34 Posted by marvelfan1992 (3174 posts) - - Show Bio

@comic_book_fan: what are stryfe's feats, i'm not too familiar? Rachel has held up providence, a floating city, and also created a mini-black hole.

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#35 Posted by comic_book_fan (11804 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: stryfe shook the moon bent time and restrained a planet busting cosmic force that at the time was comparable to the phoenix

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#36 Posted by marvelfan1992 (3174 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelfan1992: stryfe shook the moon bent time and restrained a planet busting cosmic force that at the time was comparable to the phoenix

@koays i thought you kept saying stryfe has no feats

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#37 Posted by Goku9000 (149 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean loses

  • definitely against Stryfe.
  • maybe against Candra.
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#38 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@comic_book_fan said:

@marvelfan1992: stryfe shook the moon bent time and restrained a planet busting cosmic force that at the time was comparable to the phoenix

@koays i thought you kept saying stryfe has no feats

He doesnt.

Bette Noir is a "cosmic force" with no feats or references to scale off of. It's like saying Teen Jean steered the Phoenix so shes sun level.

He didnt shake the entire moon. He shook the ground out side his time bubble.... mind you this is as Cable and Cyclops are beating his ass.

Bent time? Is that supposed to be when he was inside of his time bubble? Because he was still getting beat up by Cable and the others a few feet away and if he could do that, it probably wouldve come in handy so that...you know...he didnt die...which he did.

He has no feats

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#39 Posted by comic_book_fan (11804 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays said:
@marvelfan1992 said:
@comic_book_fan said:

@marvelfan1992: stryfe shook the moon bent time and restrained a planet busting cosmic force that at the time was comparable to the phoenix

@koays i thought you kept saying stryfe has no feats

He doesnt.

Bette Noir is a "cosmic force" with no feats or references to scale off of. It's like saying Teen Jean steered the Phoenix so shes sun level.

it was stated he was weakened at the time but at full strength he was comparable to phoenix and was growing in strength

He didnt shake the entire moon. He shook the ground out side his time bubble.... mind you this is as Cable and Cyclops are beating his ass.

i think it was stated to be the entire moon but it's been awhile cable was using his full power thats why the tecno virus was expanding on him and stryfe was exhausted from fighting everyone and cyclops was really no help or or do you not remember earlier stryfe shut down jean and cyclops powers and lectured them like children he also defeated Apocalypse who was weakend but still powerful enough to to take on a small xmen roster after the attack so before it he was probably a good deal strongger

Bent time? Is that supposed to be when he was inside of his time bubble? Because he was still getting beat up by Cable and the others a few feet away and if he could do that, it probably wouldve come in handy so that...you know...he didnt die...which he did.

He has no feats

well for someone who died he sure did alot of stuff since then and he faught nate and cable together and did not go down easily and was said to be strong enough to dislodge planets from orbit

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#40 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

She stops at 1.

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#41 Posted by Mooty_Pass (10269 posts) - - Show Bio

She Stops at 9

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#42 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@comic_book_fan:

1- Yea but the problem is how much of it did Stryfe restrain? You cant scale it. All we know is that the guy with no real feats was struggling to hold it, took it into himself and then died....again.

2- His best feat from X-cutioner song, was tearing down his tower which is what caused the only shaking I've ever seen referenced for him. It puts him at small building level. He threw a weakened Apocalypse and some dark riders around and then stabbed Apocalypse. Cable got like 2 shots in during their fight, then Havok blasted Stryfe and destroyed his armor and Cyclops hit him again. After that Cable jumped into a time vortex with him that destroyed Stryfes body. Cable at his best is said to be able to *extinguish stars with a thought* X-Man is supposedly stronger then that....both of them have lost to people far far far weaker then that level of power. Stryfe has never done anything except be called powerful.

It's the running joke with Stryfe. Everytime he shows up in the present, he dies. X-cutioner he dies, possesses Cable he dies, x-man and cable? Blows up and then dies, bette noir? Absorbs it and then dies, Messiah War, dragged off by Apocalypse to be killed, Cable and X-Force, hes stabbed through stomach and time leaps away...presumably to die.

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#43 Edited by Stormcell (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

@elpendejo said:

@stormcell: We have a direct comparison between Rachel and Jeans tk with Psylocke. When psylocke came back to life she output tk at a level Rachel couldn’t match. There’s no implication that Psylocke developed her own tk or that her brother improved her tk. If there was, he would’ve stated it. Psylocke was using Jeans old tk.

With the exception of obscure characters, marvel has been pretty clear about the hierarchy of telepaths since the 60s. Like I said before, it’s not the power levels that change with writers, the only real thing that changes from writer to writer is how much they use it or the range in which they can use it. I don’t recall a main telepath going from top tier to mid tier or a mid tier becoming top tier between writers unless there are reasons given.

Then get bloodties out of your head. Everyone’s said that Jean’s gotten far better than she was in that event. Again, it’s only proven when Nova couldn’t do anything to her mind telepathically in Red. And no, Nova was not written weaker. That’s a feat enough to put her above pre fall of shiar Xavier and comparable to current XavierX

As far as the direct comparison between Rachel's TK with Psylocke's, that doesn't help Jean at all. Also, we don't know that for sure since she died and then came back. Coming back may have awoken her own innate TK potential since her TK powers were MUCH stronger at this point than before she died. Betsy had Jean's TK power levels during Revolution. You have to compare her TK power there to Rachel's, and you'll see that Rachel blows her out of the water.

As far as your claim about there being no implication that Betsy developed her own TK, that's not true at all since Jean regained her TK powers for Morrison's New X-Men run.

Marvel being clear about the hierarachy of telepaths doesn't mean much if they don't have the feats to hold the title, to be honest. For instance, throughout the 90s, Jean was stated to be the second most powerful telepath after Xavier, however, she was constantly dwarfed by other psis like Stryfe, Exodus, X-Man, Onslaught (when he only had access to a portion of Xavier's psi powers), Shadow King (technically, SK should not be included in the ranking here since he's really a psionic entity rather than a human telepath), Legion, etc. Heck, even Cable with the techno-virus was stated to be a stronger psi than Jean during Onslaught. Then on top of all of this, 90's Emma had much better feats than 90's Jean Grey. So, this is why I sometimes disregard statements claiming Character A is more powerful than Character B, especially when power showings disagree.

My statement about characters having changing power levels between writers has nothing to do with the writer using the full range of the character's power levels and everything to do with the writer either scaling back a character to prop up others. For instance, let's look at Storm as an example. Lobdell tried to establish that Storm could not clear up a 2,000 square mile blizzard in Antarctica because it would require her altering the weather patterns over the entire continent to do so. Well, back in Uncanny X-Men #121, Storm cleared up a blizzard that swept over most of Canada (which is much larger than 2,000 square miles) that required her to alter the weather over the entire North American continent (which is MUCH MUCH MUCH larger than Antarctica). Then, we have Byrne who wrote a story where Storm dispersed a hemisphere-sized hurricane. Not to mention another story written during her Outback years prior to Lobdell where Ororo took control of the weather over the entire planet, fused the energy of the world with gamma rays she pulled out of a gamma ray gun, and created an elemental shield around the entire planet to deflect a world-wrecking blast from the sun. So, obviously, Lobdell weakened Storm when he said, "For all her power, she can't alter the ecosystem for an entire continent." The same thing that happened to Storm during the Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle years can happen between telepaths and telekinetics as well depending on the feelings of the writer.

As far as Jean getting better than she was in Bloodties, I can agree with that, however, she has yet to even come close to the power levels Exodus displayed in that story when he was going to crush an entire nation with his TK powers. Even Rachel holding up a city pales to Bloodties Exodus's TK power levels. That's just a fact.

As far as the Rachel vs. Jean debate going on here between posters, Rachel has the better feats by far, however, if she were pitted against Jean Grey, she would be weakened to give Jean the win.

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#44 Posted by ElPendejo (1705 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: If Psylocke developed her own tk her brother would have said so or Claremont would’ve implied it, which he didn’t.

All of Emma’s 90s feats are against people with no psi defenses and as I can remember, no psi battles against people with actual feats. The only time she fought through defenses was with dark beast. Something that Jean was constantly going against. Even psylocke has better feats than 90s Emma. Jean’s resisted the psi probes from onslaught. Something that 90s Emma feat wise doesn’t have hopes of doing.

Good thing that rarely happens to power levels of telepaths.

As for Jeans tk, she was able to tank multiple explosions, hold up 50 ton buildings, stop planes, held up space stations,tanked blasts from the stranger, blasts from a Phoenix amped Pryor, blasts from black bold, and ounslaught. Most importantly though, she was able to shield herself from the mass(which is heavier than an island) and energies of a white hole star. This was all during the 90s and Psylocke inhereted this power. How is this eclipsed by Rachel’s feats?

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#45 Posted by Batvibe12 (5852 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at Nate.

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#46 Posted by coraPVP (357 posts) - - Show Bio

@helloman said:

She stops at 1.

stick to saying "stalemate"

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#47 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3873 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by Koays (11832 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_adam: This is about telekinesis. Emma has never consciously used telekinesis. Shes a telepath. She can read minds not move things with them.

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#49 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (7314 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3873 posts) - - Show Bio