Jean grey runs a telepathic gauntlet. *no reason to lock*

OK last thread got locked for absolutely no reason and mods didn't say why. New thread, no cosmic entities... I guess.

- mantis

-oracle

-cosmo

-current moondragon

-Adam warlock

-mentacle

-nova(frankie raye)

-Silver Surfer

Since jean has defied cosmic beings let's see where she falls in the pecking order.

R1) can she breach their mind while the opponents are resisting.

R2) vice-versa

R3) who wins in a psionic battle?

@underfire47: what about now?

@superprimetime: yh, even if they thought the later rounds were stomps there were still 3/4 regular rounds.

Lol it was a spite thread

@koays: wooow, no it wasn't, spite implies that I had something against jean, which I obviously don't.

@koays: BTW where do you think she stops?

The thread came off like you were trying to prove she couldn't do something.

I'm not familiar with mentacle but aside from Surfer, yea she can.

R2-Warlock will prob breach her

R3- She's beating every not named Surfer

@lordkaos@ashetdust@gladeusex@batvibe12@pyrofn@geekryan@storm_calling@warlockmage@comic_book_fan@onsipin@jagernutt@weatherwitch21@thunderbolt30@the_living_tribunal_24@lan_fan@payneintheass@trixie@shepardoakenprime@xmangog__beastx@corapvp@diarrhearegatta@aqualion0@martinceld@darthphoenix@emmafrostxmen@thevivas@ginman333@kenshiro3051996@captfalcon725@morpheus_@newecho@koays@nandope@renny@scarlet_wiccan@theinsufferable@marvelfan1992@@evil-incarnate@del_torro@adamtrmm@marvelfan1992@waitomegastorm@weatherwitch21@cruelrain@kasya_carey@lukadoncicmvp@lordofallhumans@princess_fiona@crimsonfoxfire@huko@kylvarvoglar@thevoidofdeath@lilbroomstick@subline@stealthgrey@battle123axe@whitequeen666@olorun@olorun@roddy2010@thunderscream@psi-bite234@kgoulding@punyaamrit@cosmic_reign@mooty_pass@deznadomally@starchyldetsuna@sirkaboom11@one_truephoenix@marygcrisostomo@corpseeater@oraclefromhel@wesat@d2wolflike

Olorun, you do realize this is the second time someone has thought you were spiting another character? I admit that sometimes I misinterpret things, but this incident was completely separate from our argument. I wasn’t even there for this thread and two other people came in and thought you were spiting another character.

The way you are presenting yourself is a problem. You can choose to listen or not, but it’s now pretty evident that it is not just me who misinterprets your actions. You need to specify your purpose better or else this is gonna keep happening.

@pyrofn: coincidence. What do you think of this thread?

Gallery

Here, frankie casually pierces through Emma's diamond form, while Miles away and not even aiming to have done so.

Knull feat isn't even impressive etc.

Stops at Mentacle if his hype is legit, which it obviously isn't.

@professorrespect: that's kinda lowbally tbh, tp'ing a cosmic entity is clearly not a chabby feat.

And Knull has all these amazing TP resistance feats when? He's not like Odin where he has cosmic awareness and Odinforce giving him stuff to scale from, guy has nothing.

Eh. It’s kinda convenient then that none of the psychics, including Sentry, Xavier w/ Cerebro, or anyone tried to get inside the entity’s brain. Taking Jean down at least explains why no other telepaths were capable of getting into his head. So, Jean kind of becomes his feat as she is garnering feats from him.

There is still no way anyone would contest that Jean is powerful enough to take down a cosmic entity, so it really doesn’t hurt her. She is still a human with incredible willpower, but a human nonetheless without the Phoenix Force. Cates definitely used Jean to scale up the tension of the story, but it doesn't exactly hurt Jean to lose to him.

The whole "they didn't try tho" isn't really valid when it comes to these things. You could say that about any old villain of the week that tries to threaten Earth: why didn't they threaten Kang, or Terminus, or any old fodder? It's not impressive at all if there's nothing to scale from. The argument via intent doesn't work like that.

@professorrespect: he's a cosmic entity and Jean struggling to stay up after a simple probe kinda cements that he's got a strong mind no?

If you have to put that in the title, there's cause for concern

@ancient_0f_days: Definitely cause for concern when the original gauntlet was this

Gauntlet:

R1- shadowking+ xavier

R2- Thanos

R3-Silver surfer

R4- odin

R5-Galactus

R6-The others.

This current version however is fine

True, but that doesn’t negate my argument completely. Why didn’t they go this route in the first place if it was possible? Jean and Sentry could be excused by being in the middle of the action, but if it was possible for any mere telepath, don’t you think it would have been exploited? Xavier is literally watching everything going down in issue 1.

Are we really gonna go on the idea that any telepath could have done what Jean did when there was every opportunity to do so?

Well Jean just:

Of course there's context, but it looks really dope and a good feat either way!

Not sure how far she goes if combatants are fighting back though...

Not just that. She was literally attacking his mind to get him away from Dylan. Considering Knull didn’t attack her in retaliation as she was scouring his mind, it can be assumed she did it that entire time until she crumbled.

@pyrofn:

It was a great entrance and showcase for Jean, even tho she did eventually succumb to the stress and pain of her actions.

Stormcell was right they're trying to make Jean look good while making Emma (a better telepath) a fodder and making Storm's tp defenses non exisiting

We been knew

I mean she is still fighting a cosmic being. If it’s one thing I never claimed, it’s that Jean could defeat a cosmic being in a battle.

stops at 0. she couldn't even defeat a featless cosmic god

Yes, it is a great feat for Jean. She did invade Knulls mind and manipulated the situation without him defending, but she by NO means defeated Knull.

Maybe she can defeat some/certain cosmics and gods.

It's a circular argument considering that's his only showing for mind feats. Trying to scale that to = Jean taking on guys like Odin or whatnot is really silly.

@pyrofn: @marvelfan1992: @marvelfan1992: @cosmic_reign: @professorrespect: I appreciate yall responding. I've posted one nova feat since she hasn't got many feats but they're all top tier. Others being like talking to the surfer over the distance of galaxies, this was also the first time we see her attempt telepathy.

@onsipin: the original gauntlet was fire, you just hating.

Again, I NEVER said Jean could or has defeated anybody. That includes Knull.

Xavier and other psychics were clearly overlooked in order to give Jean this moment to shine before she succumbed to Knull's mind. It's all part of Marvel's ploy to try and present her as their top telepath now. Still, my point stands about the other psis being scaled back in power to raise Jean to this stature. I mean, it was a strain for her and Cable to communicate with each other across dimensions. 90s Sersi was able to do stuff like this while doing other feats simultaneously, and she's just an upper mid-tier telepath who's not in the category with people like Exodus, Emma, Xavier, Cassandra Nova, X-Man, Legion, and Shadow King (though technically he's a psionic demon-like entity of the Astral Plane, so it's probably not good to include him as a traditional telepath).

Classic Xavier fought the Dark Phoenix on all the infinite planes of existence simultaneously and was powerful enough to contact the X-Men from half a star-system away. He overcame Galactus's immense psychic defenses (and yes, Galactus's mental defenses were cited in the issue so we know that aspect of the character wasn't ignored) to not only communicate with him telepathically, but to channel the emotions of 8,000,000,000 Skrull minds into the World Devourer's psyche all while Galactus was standing on a planet and he (Xavier) was far away on a moon. He did all of this without Cerebro or some cosmic tweety bird boosting his powers. Now, you want to say Xavier with Cerebro can't do what Jean can do when she's much weaker than the power levels he wielded in his classic days? It just goes to show how badly Marvel has devalued their other telepaths for Jean's sake.

Rachel had virtually unlimited TP and TK power back when Emma beat her, and she was doing things like briefly holding up a city and creating small black holes. Her powers have been scaled back dramatically over the years to highlight Jean, and this new Hickman omega list was the final nail on the coffin for Rachel ever regaining her former power levels.

Classic Shadow King was powerful enough to mind control the planet after which he was going to absorb all the energy from negative emotions to boost his power so that he could expand his influence to the cosmos. He could do things like attack other characters a thousand different ways at once psychically in the classic days among other things. His skill and experience surpassed Classic Xavier's, and his base power levels were equal to Classic Xavier which he could augment to dwarf Xavier's by feeding off negative emotions on a wide scale.

Emma Frost is no longer a global-level telepath, and I suspect her trademark skill level is going to be diminished too for Jean to surpass her.

Classic Exodus beat Sersi telepathically in every encounter they had, he held his own against non-PIS'd Emma Frost for a while, he gave weakened Xavier a run for his money, and he defeated Rachel plus six other X-Men at the same time. Rachel probably still had those near-unlimited psi power levels when Exodus beat her and her teammates. Rachel alone would give Jean a hard fight, and this was after Rachel's power levels took a downgrade. Jean herself admitted that shecould hurt her in a fight in X-Men Red. So, there's no way Jean can beat Rachel plus six other X-Men at the same time especially if Rachel had the virtually unlimited TP and TK powers she wielded when she fought Emma and Exodus.

So, yeah, everytime I see Marvel trying to have Jean doing something now, I roll my eyes because I know what they've done to the other psychics to make her look good. And this isn't evening mentioning how Jean recently lost to Cassandra Nova (who is weaker than Xavier) and got dwarfed by X-Man and is still being presented as the strongest telepath.

Anyway, my two cents. Not going to drag this out in a long debate.

Omg i summoned it

@cruelrain: damn bitch, that's some good voodoo you got lmao. tell me the ritual you performed, i need to summon pizza ASAP

Oh okay....Gotcha!

Exactly. Knull is not like Galactus, who has amazing TP defenses: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rntf6kX5OUobg7NKPBwAfrgTpsyTsrZwjzcfTeLZ4IiQlL3y4MlQ64Qo1UCONKGRzbMqYT0N8bu=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/9oSjKG2LWsFpZc7fLnl3AScVhnlgAMwA76lJ51lUfptBsyuAdwwebSDBf0VTOR_Y_ioivssQVpwe=s1600

Now, while I think Xavier was devalued here given his fight with the Dark Phoenix, it at least shows that Galactus has immense psychic defenses which was reference again here: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/NhSlE6rAhD4fXZRRal-ILA4YJ8IOEzvcjv0wj_TzmvZE6CP4OQ2UbXK9S-TBuAwGW2AohDQtilMD5Q=s1600

Xavier was on the moon, and Galactus was on Skrullworld while all of this happened: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/xULEBCUPWYBSO2EU26uG7GFZUioaCaUwCFO750rNPwQG0-KWAZJ-jSQRZDDtKECuUhC1RAZVls7lVQ=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ci8FWW2fHyGDMGELDlZ5iD7ejAR33ODqTgoYVHXVXINjXfw_GEVj6QxyGtHaK6fnUHToG-wOVFSn6A=s1600

Incidently, going back to the scan from Secret Wars where Galactus threw Xavier's and Magneto's psionic energy back at them with barely any effort at all just goes to show how badly he was PIS'd in one of many ways when Jeen absorbed psionic energy and kicked him. Not only should he not even felt the kick (the guy can stand in the center of supernovas and not feel an itch), but he could've turned that psionic energy back upon her. This is a guy who is powerful enough to destroy the universe in some issues.

Jean has lost all credibility since there is no one Marvel won't devalue to try and make her look good.

Well, I'm exiting now and going back to lurker mode. Just had to get my two cents in. I won't even bother responding to PyroFN's rebuttal since I know he can't effectively reject my points. And if even tries to bring up Rachel getting a nosebleed from Jean's illusions, that was PIS done to overhype Jean. In X-Men Red, which happened after this, Jean admitted that Rachel would be a hard fight for her. So, how in the world is some illusion going to give her a nosebleed? Plus, Rachel did not have those unlimited TK/TP power levels she had back under Claremont in the earlier 2000s. Writers weakened her from those power levels years prior to Jean saying Rachel would give her a hard fight.

@stormcell: Emma literally just heard Kitty's thoughts from New York to the South Pacific last week.....

1) Thats not out-of-character for Reed or Doom. Reed and Doom don’t in-character go immediately for a Teleporter when facing a cosmic being. Charles Xavier’s one job is to use his telepathy and he always does use it. There is no reason that now would be any different than all the other times beforehand.

2) That is why intent can be taken into account if it could be backed up. Jean Grey, the most powerful telepath on the planet, went down to Knull. What chance do any of the other fare?

Should I even bother with this? He literally just said he isn’t gonna listen to me. Should I debunk him for the people watching? Or do you think they have caught on that Stormcell is a lunatic?

Okay, well, I'm gonna have to see what happens. If Emma is written at her high end power levels, then all the claims about Jean being the most powerful telepath is just hype. It's no different from the 90s when Jean was constantly labelled as the most powerful telepath after Xavier, yet she was always overpowered and/or surpassed in feats by other psis like Emma, Stryfe, X-Man, Legion, Exodus, Onslaught when he only had access to a portion of Xavier's power, etc. Even Cable with the technovirus was stated to be a stronger psi than Jean in some stories. Of course, if any of these telepaths were to fight Jean now, their high end feats would be ignored to give her the win. I mean, she had to strain to communicate with Cable across dimensions. That's an upper mid-tier telepath feat that even Sersi can do with less effort. Then, she couldn't even beat that Stygian's mental defenses.

@stormcell: ....or and this might sound crazy because I'm repeating myself for the millionth time.....Jean got stronger and now she doesn't lose as much.

Wow...and that didn't take 6 and a half paragraphs of conspiracy theories to say either....hmm

@stormcell: they're not trying to present her as the strongest telepath, maybe inbetween the krakoa mutants, but not anywhere in the universe.

@cruelrain: @stormcell: @koays: @pyrofn: cmonn, can I at least get an answer for each match up on the gauntlet before it gets even more derailed?

@professorrespect: professor I think I'm going to side with pyro on this one, looking at intent we can see that donny wanted to portray knull's mind as something so comically strong that even strong telepaths would struggle to read it. It would be circular reasoning if it wasn't for the intent.

You mean like how she didn't lose to Cassandra Nova, and she didn't get dwarfed by X-Man? And how she's being called more powerful than Xavier after she lost to Nova who is weaker than Xavier? Jean may have gotten more powerful, but the same issues are still there. The other telepaths they're trying to put her above have better feats than her, and she still struggles pulling off things that they've long surpassed.

When Jean couldn't beat that Stygian's mental defenses, I did a detailed Jean's entire history with her failures against mental defenses stretching back from the early 90s to literally this month. Pyro tried to rebut me by bringing up an instance where Magneto was BADLY PIS'd for Jean to get in his head on Genosha even after I debunked it. He wouldn't accept facts.

Then, Xavier's recent reaction to hers and Cable's overhyped feat when they communicated with each other across dimensions, commenting how even telepaths as strong as they shouldn't be able to pull it off, she said they were "desperate". In other words, it was a strain. I've already detailed how even an upper mid-tier telepath like 90s Sersi can pull stuff like this while doing other feats at the same time and how Xavier blew this feat away when he fought Dark Phoenix. Yet, Jean is now stronger than Xavier? Give me a break. He has taken a major power downgrade. We're never going to see him at his old power levels without Cerebro boosting his powers because Jean can't compete with Classic Xavier.

So, yeah, Jean has gotten stronger, but she her power levels are still being overstated when compared to other telepaths just as her power levels were overstated in this same regard in the 90s when she was called the second most powerful psi after Xavier when she clearly wasn't.

They are saying she's stronger than Xavier who was Marvel's premier telepath save for the occassional appearances of characters like Classic Shadow King, the Phoenix Force and Phoenix Force hosts, and Shaman X-Man who could dispute his title in this regard.

Marvel needs to stop this nonsense and stop writing people down to prop up Jean. She shouldn't even be an omega level mutant since anyone can host the Phoenix Force now. As a basic telepath, Emma Frost was right about her--Jean Grey is underwhelming. Granted, Emma did call Phoenix Force Jean Grey the most gifted telepath she'd ever seen, but against, Jean was boosted by the Phoenix Force.

This is why Sinister created Cable in 616 reality and X-Man in AOA reality. If Jean had all this huge potential without the Phoenix Force, then he would've stopped with the Jean Clone, Madelyne Pryor, instead of going through the trouble of taking the next step by using her to create baby Cable.

@stormcell: And yet....

When she spoke about Nate he was amped by a cosmic seed

When her and Cable talked to eachother it wasn't another dimension it was another reality in the multiverse all together....and not even the first time Jean's done that.

When she fought Nova....oh wait. SHE DIDN'T FIGHT NOVA. Nova spent 10 issues telling us how scared she was of Jean and how powerful Jean had become before getting a emotion chip put in her head after a TK clash.

The problem with your argument...is that all your examples sound paranoid.

In fact YOU sound paranoid. I mean I know for a fact that NO ONE on this site even mentioned the Cable/Jean feat until you did.

I mean hey, theres an argument for characters getting downplayed to prop up Jean. Hell I've MADE the argument....you just don't have it. Because Emma spent the first 20 years of her existence picking on kids and Xavier started off the 90s saying he had no idea how Jean performed several feats...

Relax bro. Jean isn't coming to get you, and ill tell her to give you back your lunch money.