Jean Grey / Exodus / Cassandra Nova VS Despero / Aquaman / Martian Manhunter

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Koays

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#1  Edited By Koays
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VS

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RULES-

  • Start 50ft apart
  • Random Encounter
  • Post Crisis - > Rebirth
  • Everyone is Peak
  • Win by DEATH or KO

MATCH-

R1- Morals On

R2- Bloodlusted

R3- Morals Off (TP ONLY )

FIGHT HERE:

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Andromeda1001

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Shouldn't Jean solo?

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ProfessorRespect

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del_torro

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I thought despero was like a god tier telepath who oneshots people like Manhunter and Arthur?

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PyroFN

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I thought despero was like a god tier telepath who oneshots people like Manhunter and Arthur?

I really need to return to J’onn at some point. I’m not sure if it’s because Despero is so powerful or if it’s because J’onn has inconsistent defenses.

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ProfessorRespect

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I thought despero was like a god tier telepath who oneshots people like Manhunter and Arthur?

He's not "god tier" (especially with his N52 showings dragging him down a fair degree) but Post Crisis Despero scales hard above J'onn, he's basically stomped him three times over.

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PyroFN

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@del_torro said:

I thought despero was like a god tier telepath who oneshots people like Manhunter and Arthur?

He's not "god tier" (especially with his N52 showings dragging him down a fair degree) but Post Crisis Despero scales hard above J'onn, he's basically stomped him three times over.

Has anyone ever resisted Starro’s recruits before? Because I remember J’onn being controlled by one of those tiny starfish.

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ProfessorRespect

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#9  Edited By ProfessorRespect
@pyrofn said:
@professorrespect said:
@del_torro said:

I thought despero was like a god tier telepath who oneshots people like Manhunter and Arthur?

He's not "god tier" (especially with his N52 showings dragging him down a fair degree) but Post Crisis Despero scales hard above J'onn, he's basically stomped him three times over.

Has anyone ever resisted Starro’s recruits before? Because I remember J’onn being controlled by one of those tiny starfish.

A good few times, but not to the degree where they'd be able to ignore the commands, just slight resistance. Despero was the only one that had to be disabled telepathically before being controlled via removing his third eye.

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PyroFN

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@professorrespect: Then a mere grunt should be doable for J’onn to resist as the most powerful telepath on the planet in his universe, right?

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ProfessorRespect

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@pyrofn said:

@professorrespect: Then a mere grunt should be doable for J’onn to resist as the most powerful telepath on the planet in his universe, right?

Not from experience, the best he could do was move his limbs slightly and not follow direct orders.

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Mooty_Pass

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I'm going with Team 1 for the Win.

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marvelfan1992

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Aquaman is a weaklink, but Despero might be too much. iunno

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ashrym

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samgee

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@ashrym: The Aquaman & Martian around equal and Despero the most powerful?

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Mage101

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Mage101

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Aquaman is a weaklink, but Despero might be too much. iunno

He isn't his defenses can actually hold up to exodus TP and he has enough power to hold back exodus.

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Mage101

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Team 2 wins .

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PyroFN

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@mage101 said:

Team 2 wins .

By what measure?

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dami24434

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Team 1 has more finesse and jean is the strongest telepath here currently

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Mage101

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@pyrofn said:
@mage101 said:

Team 2 wins .

By what measure?

I feel like despero's TP is a match for jean and J'onn is around cassandra's level added with their physicals that can overwhelm team one defenses and arthur's trident versatility and hax, arthur also has feats of resisting planetary TP so he'll manage with exodus and force exodus he'll lose eventually but i believe that despero can take down cassandra quickly enough and help his team to win but well that's just my opinion, what's yours?

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PyroFN

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@mage101 said:
@pyrofn said:
@mage101 said:

Team 2 wins .

By what measure?

I feel like despero's TP is a match for jean and J'onn is around cassandra's level added with their physicals that can overwhelm team one defenses and arthur's trident versatility and hax, arthur also has feats of resisting planetary TP so he'll manage with exodus and force exodus he'll lose eventually but i believe that despero can take down cassandra quickly enough and help his team to win but well that's just my opinion, what's yours?

Still uncertain. I am certain there have been comparisons between J’onn and Charles Xavier, but I am figuring out how accurate that is, since he is the key to scaling Despero.

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Mage101

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@pyrofn said:
@mage101 said:
@pyrofn said:
@mage101 said:

Team 2 wins .

By what measure?

I feel like despero's TP is a match for jean and J'onn is around cassandra's level added with their physicals that can overwhelm team one defenses and arthur's trident versatility and hax, arthur also has feats of resisting planetary TP so he'll manage with exodus and force exodus he'll lose eventually but i believe that despero can take down cassandra quickly enough and help his team to win but well that's just my opinion, what's yours?

Still uncertain. I am certain there have been comparisons between J’onn and Charles Xavier, but I am figuring out how accurate that is, since he is the key to scaling Despero.

I would say that in terms of feats outside of battles and scaling, j'onn is more impressive but in terms of battle i would put xavier as being better than j'onn.

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TheVoidofDeath

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#24  Edited By TheVoidofDeath

Team 2

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geekryan

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With all powers allowed, I would back Team 2 for the first two rounds.

In pure telepathy, I would say Team 1, but barely. While I have Jean, Xavier, and Martian Manhunter at around the same level, Post Crisis Despero is above J'onn. However, Aquaman pulls his team down. Jean can at least stall Despero and Cassandra or Exodus can stall Martian Manhunter long enough for the other to beat Aquaman.

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briannajadin

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marvelfan1992

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NovaPrime2

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DC stomp first 2 rounds.

Third round is closer, but DC still take it. J'onn and Despero are complete monsters when it comes to TP and are above almost every mutant in Marvel.

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LordOfAllHumans

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#29  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

Marvel all 3 rounds, and it's not only because of Jean. She here though. It counts.

Marvel telepaths, especially mutants, are just better. Better and more varied feats that most of them can do regardless of power level. Mutant telepaths also are not stupid. Even if they have other powers they go straight to mind shit. If I'm the most powerful telepath in my universe, I'm not playing around with your other unknown limits powers.

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ProfessorRespect

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DC stomp first 2 rounds.

Third round is closer, but DC still take it. J'onn and Despero are complete monsters when it comes to TP and are above almost every mutant in Marvel.

This is false

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destinyman75

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@mage101: Exodus Who destroyed Selene? Nah

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LordOfAllHumans

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Can you imagine the power and skill in this well organized mutant circuit? They do that now.

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ashrym

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@samgee said:

@ashrym: The Aquaman & Martian around equal and Despero the most powerful?

Aquaman has used his power to protect J'onn more often than J'onn needed to do it for Arthur. They often are similar but J'onn is far more skilled while Arthur has >= raw power. Arthur's recent showing compared to J'onn in Voidsong would demonstrate that power. Despero has beaten J'onn and Arthur double teaming him in a TP battle and is superior.

Overall Despero > Martian Manhunter > Aquaman and with all powers they each have relevant TP defense with way too much versatility and physical defense to lose the first 2 rounds.

Aquaman's trident can amplify the psychic abilities of anyone here. That means allowing MMH and Despero to focus TP through the trident as well. Mister Miracle was able to quickly build a similar simple amplifier for Jarro that was quantified as 5x so that should be at least the amplifier for the other characters. That amp applied to the other members of the team should carry them through the final round.

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PyroFN

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#34  Edited By PyroFN

@koays: As the op, are you including Aquaman’s trident?

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Koays

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Koays

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@pyrofn: I mean by the logic presented if I did, I'd also have to give Jean pink form so consider it that way.

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ashrym

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@pyrofn said:

@koays: As the op, are you including Aquaman’s trident?

The trident is standard gear. It's like not including Thor's hammer or Captain America's shield.

There's a big difference between with and without trident when it comes to Aquaman.

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Koays

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@ashrym said:
@pyrofn said:

@koays: As the op, are you including Aquaman’s trident?

The trident is standard gear. It's like not including Thor's hammer or Captain America's shield.

There's a big difference between with and without trident when it comes to Aquaman.

He's got like 4 different ones though....

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ProfessorRespect

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@ashrym said:
@samgee said:

@ashrym: The Aquaman & Martian around equal and Despero the most powerful?

Aquaman has used his power to protect J'onn more often than J'onn needed to do it for Arthur. They often are similar but J'onn is far more skilled while Arthur has >= raw power

Again this not true

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SupremeGeneration

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@del_torro said:

I thought despero was like a god tier telepath who oneshots people like Manhunter and Arthur?

He's not "god tier" (especially with his N52 showings dragging him down a fair degree) but Post Crisis Despero scales hard above J'onn, he's basically stomped him three times over.

Conversely, didn't MMH like one-shot Despero with TP in N52?

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ProfessorRespect

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@professorrespect said:
@del_torro said:

I thought despero was like a god tier telepath who oneshots people like Manhunter and Arthur?

He's not "god tier" (especially with his N52 showings dragging him down a fair degree) but Post Crisis Despero scales hard above J'onn, he's basically stomped him three times over.

Conversely, didn't MMH like one-shot Despero with TP in N52?

He did it with TP while claiming he was holding back before in the prior showings

that and him jobbing to Supergirl is more proof N52 Despero is worthless

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ashrym

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@koays said:
@ashrym said:
@pyrofn said:

@koays: As the op, are you including Aquaman’s trident?

The trident is standard gear. It's like not including Thor's hammer or Captain America's shield.

There's a big difference between with and without trident when it comes to Aquaman.

He's got like 4 different ones though....

He's got 2 typical tridents. One is the atlantean relic and the other is Poseidon's trident. Both have similar capabilities while Poseidon's trident adds additional abilities. For example, both amplify psychic and mystic abilities. Writers often just say "Aquaman's trident at this point" and "Aquaman's trident" coined that way has some of his best feats.

Seriously, does anyone ask if Captain America has his shield? Does Thor have his hammer? Does Batman have batarangs? Does Wonder Woman have her lasso? Does Hawkeye or Green Arrow have bows and arrows?

Aquaman gained the trident in the 90's. He had it but it was often kept in Atlantis and that was similar to how Namor uses his trident these days. The trident became prominent during Darkest Night / Brightest day and iconic in 2011 starting in the new 52. The time to state whether the trident was available or not was over 10 years ago. At this point Aquaman comes with a trident unless specified otherwise because he typically has one outside of plot context.

A person might specify which trident, or that he doesn't have a trident, but without that specification he would have his current trident. This would be similar to Ironman. Ironman has had many suits of armor but we wouldn't ask if he has armor. We would assume it's his current armor unless otherwise specified.

@ashrym said:
@samgee said:

@ashrym: The Aquaman & Martian around equal and Despero the most powerful?

Aquaman has used his power to protect J'onn more often than J'onn needed to do it for Arthur. They often are similar but J'onn is far more skilled while Arthur has >= raw power

Again this not true

It is true. J'onn has been overwhelmed PC and Rebirth when Arthur has not multiple times and Arthur protected or rescued J'onn several times PC because of his telepathic power.

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ProfessorRespect

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@professorrespect said:
@ashrym said:
@samgee said:

@ashrym: The Aquaman & Martian around equal and Despero the most powerful?

Aquaman has used his power to protect J'onn more often than J'onn needed to do it for Arthur. They often are similar but J'onn is far more skilled while Arthur has >= raw power

Again this not true

It is true. J'onn has been overwhelmed PC and Rebirth when Arthur has not multiple times

It is not, most if not all of Arthur's showings involving scaling above are discredited, many included on here

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Koays

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#44  Edited By Koays
@ashrym said:

A person might specify which trident, or that he doesn't have a trident, but without that specification he would have his current trident. This would be similar to Ironman. Ironman has had many suits of armor but we wouldn't ask if he has armor. We would assume it's his current armor unless otherwise specified.

Fair enough....although I think it's also fair that Pyro asked me what the intention was since certain tridents, current one especially might unbalance the match up if it's being used the way your suggesting.

Personally, i prefer to leave the floor open for all potential scenarios.

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ashrym

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@professorrespect said:
@ashrym said:
@samgee said:

@ashrym: The Aquaman & Martian around equal and Despero the most powerful?

Aquaman has used his power to protect J'onn more often than J'onn needed to do it for Arthur. They often are similar but J'onn is far more skilled while Arthur has >= raw power

Again this not true

It is true. J'onn has been overwhelmed PC and Rebirth when Arthur has not multiple times

It is not, most if not all of Arthur's showings involving scaling above are discredited, many included on here

With things like

it’s probably a low showing for J’onn but he struggled Telepathically with ancient Atlanteans who didn’t have Aquaman’s mental prowess.

as valid arguments? Nope. What you did in most of that other thread you linked was rationalize your confirmation bias.

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ProfessorRespect

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#46  Edited By ProfessorRespect
@ashrym said:
@professorrespect said:
@professorrespect said:
@ashrym said:
@samgee said:

@ashrym: The Aquaman & Martian around equal and Despero the most powerful?

Aquaman has used his power to protect J'onn more often than J'onn needed to do it for Arthur. They often are similar but J'onn is far more skilled while Arthur has >= raw power

Again this not true

It is true. J'onn has been overwhelmed PC and Rebirth when Arthur has not multiple times

It is not, most if not all of Arthur's showings involving scaling above are discredited, many included on here

it’s probably a low showing for J’onn but he struggled Telepathically with ancient Atlanteans who didn’t have Aquaman’s mental prowess.

as valid arguments? Nope

Notice how you failed to debunk or provide any context for this statement aside from merely throwing it out there and saying it simply is false? That's by default a weak argument etc

What you did in most of that other thread

Was debunking of well known Aquaman myths and wank etc, I'm glad to have done so if only so people can see how easy it is to break popular myths on the character made popular by limited perspectives. The whole "ancient Atlantean" scaling in particular was easily figured out as faulty as soon as I read the issues.

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geekryan

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Yeaaa I still don't see how Aquaman can be compared to Martian Manhunter, Jean Grey, etc.

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Mage101

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Mage101

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@geekryan said:

Yeaaa I still don't see how Aquaman can be compared to Martian Manhunter, Jean Grey, etc.

It hasn't been proven correctly, you'll only see instances where j'onn was jobbing and Aquaman seemed better.

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Mage101

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@koays said:
@ashrym said:

A person might specify which trident, or that he doesn't have a trident, but without that specification he would have his current trident. This would be similar to Ironman. Ironman has had many suits of armor but we wouldn't ask if he has armor. We would assume it's his current armor unless otherwise specified.

Fair enough....although I think it's also fair that Pyro asked me what the intention was since certain tridents, current one especially might unbalance the match up if it's being used the way your suggesting.

Personally, i prefer to leave the floor open for all potential scenarios.

Use the trident of Poseidon, it's more versatile and looks better.