Jean Grey and Storm vs X-Men Team

• Jean Grey (no PF) & Storm vs
• Psylocke, Jubilee, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Emma Frost & Bishop
• Win by KO, Incapacitation, or Death
• 1st round in character
• 2nd round morals off

could go either way

Storm and Jean win both rounds nobody on the team can handle Jean telepathically she has consistently been shown to be the more skilled and more powerful telepath when it come to Emma and Besty. Morals off she doesn't even need Storm, she can think die and they all will. It has been shown on panel that when Xavier created a scenario to take out the X-men, Jean is his first target because she is the most dangerous and most powerful. Onslaught went after Jean first to join him, Gamesmaster went after Jean first because she was a threat to his plans. Apocalypse has said the power levels of the Dark Phoenix are well withing her ability to attain he was just not sure if it was a good idea to unlock it.

There has been noting to suggest she is on par with Jean Grey especially since Jean has far more raw power than she does and in astral plane combat sessions has been trained by and lost to Jean and only gained telekinesis because she asked for the help of more powerful and skilled Jean to help her with Shadowking. Emma has always been second string to Jean. Emma alone said Jean is the most gifted psi she has ever met, and Pyslocke is really no match for Emma pound for pound in a telepathic brawl, not to mention Storm has had enough encounters with Emma to be a threat all by herself. In a world full of telepaths it was stated on panel in nearly every Jean appearance she had one rival as top telepath on Earth and that was Charles Xavier, until she surpassed him as he had been predicting for years before.

Idk, Emma more then likely can't beat Jean (Psylocke would probably get in the way of Emma's best runs)...but she's reached a level where she won't get dragged around by her hair again if they fought. It would be a back and forth fight for long enough to take them both out of the battle momentarily.

Storm is where the question mark really lays... She could electrocute the lot of them in move one at the beginning, but Nightcrawler, Cyclops and Psylocke could easily get a opening immediately afterwards if she doesn't end it there and bring her down.

Then you have to see whether Jean can offensively and defensively handle the whole squad alone with Emma and Psylocke distracting her.

It's a toss up.

No, lightning doesnt travel at the speed of light.

@willpayton: Its called LIGHTning for a reason and has blocked a blast from cyclops and we all know cykes optic blasts also travel at the speed of light

You really have no idea what you're talking about do you?

@willpayton: Uh yeah I do

Apparently not.

you need to learn physics

this, but I think that Betsy and Emma are enough to hold Jean down enough for Nightcrawler to BFR her. The Emma that fought Jean didn't have all the current feats btw, such as the Skrulls one. I think that if the team plays it smart they can win.

Bishop has shown psychic resistance by being able to absorb psychic energy. If he can also absorb TK energy then I'm leaning towards team Cyclops.

Yea I'm just of the belief that Emma would be more effective solo then working with Psylocke having never really worked together before. And I think Nightcrawler would be better put to use against Storm who's speed is a bit more of a problem then Jean.

Jean isn't taking anyone out quick as long as Emma and Psylocke are on the field....Storm though might strike Jubilee down and blow bishop 10 miles away by the time Nightcrawler ports back from Jean.

If Betsy is willing to let Emma use her TP as a battery as she does with the Cuckoos then there's good chance that they will be able to block Jean, then Storm would be the main problem.

Electricity can be absorbed by Bishop, but winds would be a big issue, even if Betsy could do something with her TK.

And can Storm survive a psi-bolt or a psionic weapon used by Betsy? She's immune to TP manipulation but I've never seen her resist pure psionic bolts.

Morals off there's a high chance that Storm electrocutes them.

Well current Psylocke is actually pretty amped up so it could make Jean and Emma even enough to be a toss up. But again its a lot of synergy for 2 people who don't work together enough to say for sure Betsy would trust Emma's abilities enough to give her the power boost. And then you have to decide who wins Jean or Emma when on an even playing field.

Storm isnt immune to TP though...just very resistant and she can be hit by constructs . Really Psylocke could just snatch Storm out of the sky and one shot her with TK while Jean is occupied.... Or she or Cyclops could hit her with psi bolts/optics if she's open....the problem Being that storm will be raining down hell and they'll be on the defense very early on.

Don't get me wrong Storm isn't exactly " Ace Accuracy" and the team has feats of dodging that would keep this interesting. But only Cyke , Betsy and Nightcrawler are threats and she knows this. So basically its her trying to avoid the combination of them getting that one good shot in while they try to use Kurt to get around the flight , wind and attack speed edge to get a good hit .

Emma using three Cuckoos as a battery wasn't even a match for two different versions of Jeans that did not have the training of adult Jean, adult Jean died being more skilled and being more powerful than Emma and Psylocke. Emma may have shown more feats, but she had already mastered telepathy long before meaning nothing she had done then was something she was not capable of when she was defeated by Jean in the past. Psylocke and Emma are no real match for Jean in terms of power and if both of them are still under Xavier then they are still under Jean. Emma with the Phoenix could hardly do anything to Thor telepathically and Xavier put him to sleep with a word, how many times did that man have to say Jean was more powerful than he is for people to realize any telepath under him is not in Jean's league regardless of what they have been doing currently or in the past 10+ years. If we are talking about feats during the time Jean was not on Earth, still nothing Betsy or Emma has done compares to Jean at full power fully bonded with her true power, which can telepathically change history. If we are talking about Jean right before she died in the Sun her mind alone would turn theirs to ash if they tried to enter it and she already beat Emma when Emma was without and with the Phoenix Force, while Jean had none according to her, panel evidence and the Phoenix. Morals off Jean will shut the rest of the team down instantly as she has shown she is not above turning off minds as a first and last resort. Morals off she rips nanotech from Prime Sentinels and nearly killed Ironman with one blast of tk, she clots blood, and manipulates other bodily functions, she knows Emma on a molecular level in her diamond form and can shatter her with a thought the way she did Prism. Jean and Storm will win this, with effort morals on, and will crush this with them off.

@lordofallhumans: when Emma fought Jean she had been with the X-Men for very little and writers had mainly focused on Jean since she and Xavier where the main telepaths. When she was gone Emma did things that neither Jean nor Xavier had done before, since they had time to give her some character progression and let her out of Jean's shadow. Emma defeated the whole telepathic Skrull army which included people with hers, Jean's and Xavier's powers, she did even block Exodus' powers while neither Xavier nor Jean were able to beat him or stop his TK. As @koays said, she's grown when it comes to telepathy, and even if she may not be able to beat Jean Grey(whose power levels are just too high, and kept increasing with time as any good Mary Sue character), she won't be obliterated by her as in Morrison's run. And again with that battle, I'm still quite sure that there was some Phoenix behind it(we had this discussion many times in the past lol).

With Betsy - whose current power levels are increased to Omega levels -, she can for sure keep her busy enough for the others to do something to her before she TP shuts them down. It all comes down on how good Betsy and Emma work together.

As for the examples you quoted, are we really using the Xorna battle as an example? That was an extremely overpowered version of Jean Grey against a completely depowered version of Emma Frost. And it was bloody Bendis. The same one who made Thor impervious to Emma's TP but let Xavier defeat him but at the same time he made Xavier unable to defeat Spider Woman with telepathy. Lol. Bendis is a mess when it comes to power levels or telepathy, look at his current X-Men run, sometimes Logan is immune, some others he's not, sometimes Mystique is immune, sometimes she's not etc. And he writes Jeen as a complete Mary Sue.

@lordofallhumans: Lol paragraphs please....that was murder to read on my phone cracked screen.

But yea I'm sticking with my original opinion. The way you describe Emma's mastery of telepath is pretty much where we won't be able to even debate this back and forth (and i think we've tried before). Correct me if im wrong but your basically saying that Emma Frost despite being a "master telepath" hasn't and can never improve. That she was capable of beating the Skrulls during Morrison's run isn't even plausible to me and would assume that she plateaued in power and ability before Gen X. Your painting mastering telepathy as a math equation where no matter how many times you look at it there's only one answer for Emma. To me that's like saying Lebron James can't get better at basketball, Serena Williams can't become a better tennis player or Rhonda Rousey can't learn to fight better despite being masters in their fields.


I think your overstating Jean's ability and understating Emma's. To say that she can beat Emma is a fair assessment, but to say Emma who has powercrept her way up the psychic chart, taken down multiple hiveminds of obscenely strong psychics, and blocked Xavier himself from using his powers (which is all that needs to be done here) isn't putting up a fight just isn't fair. And like @veitha said Bendis portrayal of psychics is questionable....but if we are going to mention alternate Jean's she did hang longer with zero powers then the Cuckoo's at full power....that shows something.

This is all assuming that she's not allowed access to the Phoenix though...because if so then it's not even a joke how quickly this ends.

Emma when introduced, and during her times with the Hellions was more skilled than Jean. She had plenty of feats with Gen. X showcasing she had mastered her telepathy which is why when she joined the X-men she never actually needed to train or learn anything, she is a teacher that teaches telepathy. She beat some Skrulls that were said to have the powers of Jean and Xavier but since it's well documented that her mind is not as strong as either of their minds individually, that was either PIS or those Skrulls were not as powerful as you would like to believe. Xavier and Jean have only had issues with Exodus when he was hopped up on power due to psi leeching other mutants in the area, Emma beating him was a prep feat and did not involve him being at his classical levels that Xavier and Jean we faced with, so using him is not a valid comparison within the context of the stories. Yes we have and you provided nothing except her having a Phoenix raptor that she had been using for years before, I understand you don't want to admit Jean can beat Emma without the Phoenix but on panel evidence shows she was not using the Phoenix and in Endsong proved that even with the Phoenix inside Emma she was no match for Jean using no Phoenix. Jean having powers that keep increasing is consistent with her character and has been for decades, remember this is the first telepath to psi blast Juggernaut when her telepathy was first awakened and back then at it's onset already rivaled Xavier as mentioned when Cain actually felt the blast. Considering Xavier has never done that and Jean did we can assume she has always been more powerful than Xavier since his first encounter with her when she was a child as the telepathy used to blast Cain, was the telepathy Xavier locked away in her as a child, which at the time was not her limit. Jean by her own admission held back a considerable amount of power basically her entire X-men career.

Besty is not an omega level mutant, she is an omega level telepath which means at most she is only at Emma/Xavier levels of powers as before her power was split between both her psi talents, she already had considerable skill anyway, but was never a match for Jean who actually trained her.

Teen Jean was not an overpowered version of Jean during that time, there was nothing she showed that would place her above the adult Jean Grey in power, and there was really nothing Zorna showed that placed her above either. Bendis did not make Thor impervious to Emma's telepathy, she was unable to do anything to Thor because unlike Xavier she does not have experience with minds of that nature, Xavier being able to telepathically take out Thor is consistent with him being able to battle the Dark Phoenix on multiple planes of reality at the same time and to enter the mind of Galactus while busting through planetwide psi static. Emma has had trouble with demons in the past and it was clear to me when she was using her telepathy on Thor that she was not channeling Phoenix power as the scan does not show the imagery that was associated with the Phoenix during that series. Jeen was written in the vein of the character before that was blessed with the same unlimited psionic potential, if anything was Mary Sue it was Emma supposedly being able to over power Skrulls with the power of Jean and Xavier when we know she can't even do that to Jean when Emma herself has the Phoenix. Say what you want, even if we ignore everything Bendis wrote it has never been in question as far as Marvel goes who would win in a telepathic battle between Jean and Emma.

You would have me believe that Emma can over power the combined power of Xavier and Jean, but that Jean would be unable to handle two telepaths that you know she is more powerful than, but then berate Jean for being a Mary Sue? I'm not buying it, even if it's on the clearance rack with 99.999999% off.

No I'm saying as a master telepath she has not grown in any power and has never been seen being taught anything new so why should I believe that her level of skill has increased when she was already a master, at most she is just more battle hardened and has gained more experience in using things she could already do.

No I'm not, you are overstating Emma and understating Jean. To many times have we been shown that Emma is no match for the adult Jean regardless of how many tricks she has up her un-sleeves, yet people still argue as if she did something impossible by telepaths more powerful than she is with equal to better training. Except we know that Emma is completely defenseless against Jean and cannot block her power as evidenced by her even trying to use her diamond form to defend herself and Jean smashing through her every defense, Jean is more powerful than Xavier the man himself knows this to be true.

She doesn't need to access the Phoenix, she already has beaten Emma without the Phoenix and then to show who was real queen psi she has beaten Phoenix Emma while she had none of it according to the Phoenix itself. Emma knows Jean is her superior even if she herself says she would never admit it to Jeans face, so I don't understand why this is actually being debated.

@lordofallhumans: Hey I never said she'd win. I said she wouldn't get dragged around by her hairdo again. Which is why i think your understating Emma if you think that after everything she's been through in the last 10 years she'd still lose as epicly as she did against a pissed off Jean during Morrison's run.

I'm saying that this isn't a squash match to put Emma against Jean. They're going to have to fight it out and with Psylocke as a boost it's going to make Emma a lot harder to beat. And all the while they're having this huge mental showdown, Storm is fighting the X-Men and the outcome of that will likely be decided sooner then Emma vs Jean.

Jean wrecked her once....no doubt about it. But it was once 11 years ago. WIth everything Emma's done and been through, as much as she's grown to say it wouldn't even be a fight just isn't how i see it.

What proof is there that she won't just be "dragged around by her hair" again? She has no room to gain more power than Jean and if the skill is mastery level for both Jean will drag her like she did before. A Jean not shown to be more powerful or skilled than Morrison Jean dragged her and her "daughters" with little effort at the same time.

Except Jean has consistent showings of using both telepathy and telekinesis in battle at the same time for multiple feats of both, she can attack them on both fronts at the same time, the rest of team can be taken out by Jean with a single thought, Storm never has to do anything if she doesn't want to, but in character or out of it we know she won't just stand there. With a thought she could manipulate the flow of blood to all of their brains like she did to Rictor and end it quick.

She wrecked her twice (not counting the Dark Phoenix), has evicted her from her body and left her at the first line of defense in Xaviers mind, it won't be a fight. Emma has not grown in power, she has been spotlighted while nobody else with power to compare to hers was around. Jean easily overwhelmed even her passive diamond defenses. Emma only went diamond because she knew telepathically she could not defend from Jean thinking her "immunity" would protect her, and when she tried it was smashed, right along with her own psychic defenses. That time they fought Jean basically wrapped her mind around Emma's and was in control of the entire situation, what is stopping this from happening again, 11 years? It hasn't been 11 years their time anyway and it was just about the same amount time passed the last time Jean just up and kicked her out of her own body forcing her to seek another.

R1 - Majority to the ladies IMO. From a tactics perspective Storm could have Jean place them both a TK force field from the start while Storm takes them all out in a number of ways (and Jean could still attack via TP/TK). The main threats here IMO are Nightcrawler and Cyclops. Outside of that scenario I think Storm and Jean have the better defensive uses of their powers (TK force fields, redirect/deflect energy) and can one-shot most of the team.

R2 - Could go either way. Storm could fry all of their brains, freeze their insides, etc. Kurt speed-port off their heads. It comes down to who can get the attacks off first.

A case can be made for both teams , team 2 mostly has fodder with psylocke and Emma being mvp, with team work, they could take it, but if Betsy and Emma both work to fight Jean, storm could easily take out the rest and then join Jean.

On the other hand, current Betsy and Emma could be strong enough to take out Jean, and then everyone overwhelms storm. Not sure how the ladies have developed, but they have a history of being punked by Jean, that is coloring my judgment.

I know Emma has been lieing about her powers being broken, but were they fixed when she fought xorna

11 years of power growth, strength, experience and development since then point to her being above what she was at that time. If you really believe that Emma Frost hasn't gotten any stronger then I can't debate with you on this. It's clear you've read the material so it's not like I can sight some magical source that says she's got stronger. All I can do is point to her accomplishments against other psychics and sight her improvement while you say she could already do that. I mean you basically said that showing her defeating more powerful psychics doesn't count so I'm at a lost of what to present to you as a sign of growth. By your logic kid Cyclops is on par with Pre-AvX Cyclops power wise despite more powerful showings from the latter....it's just hard to really prove the point when the only acceptable proof would be dialogue.

This idea that being a master telepath puts their skills off the table is hard to understand. I don't define mastery as just the peak level of skill...as in they've both maxed out their skill levels now power level decides the fight. I see it as more of a master being someone who can't be taught anything else in their field but can still learn and apply new things on their own. So Einstein is a master in his field, but through research and experiments he's discovered new things about his field. But if you put him in a room with Stephen Hawking they each have their own strengths but neither is more or less a Master. I'm curious why you see it your way, since it kind of cancels out any argument that say Xavier is more skilled then Rachel.


Xorna just isn't even a fair judgement. Emma without her powers lost a psychic battle where she had to command four teenagers against a Jean Grey who was so powerful she destroyed herself. It's like ok...but she obviously did some damage if Teen Jean was able to come out with the win afterwards. But really now were looking at an Emma who has dealt with the Cuckoo's, Rachel, The Phoenix Cuckoo's, Cassandra Nova, Golgotha, Xavier, The Skrulls (while ripped from her body), Xavier again, Maddie Pryor, Fear It's Self Juggernaut, Sinister's Celestial boosted Hivemind and a Jean Grey from the future on top of her last encounter with Jean. That's a lot of powerful people to hang with and fight over while Jean's been away. This is the difference in experiences alone between Emma then and now. Let alone emotion wise (which is what Jean exploited) or power wise (which has grown after these encounters).

You wanna say Jean wins then sure I'm with you do to a lack of evidence of the power gap being crossed..but you wanna say the fight plays out the same way...then your gonna need to sight a reason experience (since we can't agree on power or skill) doesn't matter here.

The reason being sighted is Jean has always been over Emma in all departments telepathy. Being the most powerful telepath on Earth is just as much about skill as it is power. Jean went from second to first when Xavier was removed the entire time Emma was alive and well, it took for both of them to be gone for her to get that title unofficially. There is no reason to believe in these 11 years Emma has learned anything new, she has been given more shine in the past 11 years to finally showcase her talents in a power that peaked decades ago. Let's use the Rachel/Emma encounter as an example. Emma won because of skill because Rachel is far more powerful. If Emma's skill was a match for Jeans it wouldn't matter how powerful Jean is if Emma was the better telepath, which was the point of the Rachel/Emma encounter. Telepathy takes more than just power and a lot of skill is required. Since Emma has never bested Jean we can safely say she has never been more skilled and if they are both at the height of telepathic skill mastery with Jean apparently edging her out in both power and skill, there is no reason to believe that 11 years of Emma merely showing what she can do and not actually learning anything new is now a match for Jean.

So what? Bullets travel fast too, it doenst mean they move at the speed of light.

I'm chocked at the lack of basic physics knowledge on this site. Lightning is the movement of electrons through the air. Electrons move fast, but not even close to the speed of light. In fact nothing that has mass (any kind of matter) can move at the speed of light. It's physically impossible.

where did apocalypse say this? :) I wanna check it out

@lordofallhumans: Ok Gotcha. Pretty much a stand still over whether or not Emma has grown in strength or simply had her powers highlighted. It's up for interpretation i guess.

Jean shields them, Storm attacks the X-men.

Duo for the win

I guess, but one would have to prove that a fully grown mutant that has always been as powerful as she is now has magically grown in power without already having been hinted to have more potential for power. I don't recall it ever being stated that Emma possessed any such potential. Even when it was being suggested she had latent TK it was never suggested she had untapped telepathic power and she herself has mastered unlocking untapped potential power, seems strange she wouldn't unlock her own, which would perfectly explain her being more powerful if indeed she was. Emma has always had access to her full power, her doing feats that normally did not require her need to do so is not evidence that her powers have grown.

I get what your saying, but it doesn't account for people like Quicksilver who got faster over time, Storm who grew leaps and bounds throughout the 90's, Wolverine who's healing factor has exponentially increased and Nightcrawler who seemingly has lost any trace of exhaustion from teleporting. None of them were stated as having some huge potential for power that they hadn't reached., Rather it has been stated that mutant powers are "like a muscle" so perhaps like a muscle they grow more powerful with strain and use. And really it's never been stated that she, nor any other mutant couldn't get any stronger or had reached the limits of their abilities....it's really only been said that some mutants have unlimited potential but never that ____ is at their limit.

Quicksilvers powers are physical and tied directly to the strength of a muscle that can be increased, not to mention the numerous times his powers have been altered. Storm was always powerful, her fine tuning had increased not her actual power and at least with her they have used that ridiculous potential omega level mutant title to explain if she ever did power jump. Wolverines healing increased as his popularity did, he is also the product of a shadow government experiment the full extent of which we still don't know and is really a bad example he is a pet mutant to writers. Nighcrawler did not increase in power that is him increasing his stamina through practicing. Storm and Nightcrawler have gained skill and control not power boosts. Wolverine is a special case that can apparently heal anything the story calls for. You still haven't actually proved that Emma as far as power couldn't do everything she is doing 11 years ago, there is no reason to believe her power has increased when things like that are normally mentioned. Xavier lost his power and came back stronger than ever, Emma lost her powers (psi wave) stayed the same. Certain mutants have unlimited potential and others are capped off when they hit their peak. Many of the X-men were kids when they started so it makes since that if they did grow more powerful it was due to them growing up, I don't see why as an adult Emma, who was a villain in an organization that only let in powerful people, would wait until now to unlock power, as she unlike most mutants has a talent for sensing and unlocking hidden power.

The ladies team 2 storm and Jean win.