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#51 Edited by gunchar16 (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: Lol now i also deleted my post(damn smartphone).

Not without being much slower than average(or Bat-God pis, but the first rule in DC is to ignore Batman's feats in regards to abave street lvl characters XD). Post crosis WW catched while he lost control over himself for example(and couldn't stop speeding) and on other occasions. She also kept explicitly up with above average(not top) speed Wally and they put out the burning MMH for example, also several other instances(blitzing a White Martian into spac3 or a gtoup effort with the Speedsters and Superman for example). Another metahuman/superhuman told us she is faster than though and was going further.

She catched and tagged Zoom(Zolomon btw.) as he was playing around, that's still crazy fast in his case and she was even blind(but learned how to compensate for that in her training with Wally).

Ah ok yeah, that could come especially against N52 in handy(but like mentioned team 1 should win anyways against thos significantly weaker versions).

Well i dislike damsels in distress, i like Jean. So i think 100% not that she is one and never said anything like that :D

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#52 Posted by Prezilla (674 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean solos

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#53 Edited by gunchar16 (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@prezilla:

Wanky di wank wank, Jean still solos shit.

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#54 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (6867 posts) - - Show Bio

@gunchar16: those versions of WW aren't her current state, however Jean is currently White Phoenix... Jean stomps.

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#55 Posted by Helloman (29665 posts) - - Show Bio

Team one wins.

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#56 Posted by PyroFN (6182 posts) - - Show Bio

@gunchar16: I know you didn't. That was my bad and I apologized for it in the same comment if it's worth anything.

Anyways, were all those instances reaction based or Wonder Woman readying herself. I'm not necessarily gonna go by travel speed unless we are talking about when she starts traveling. I'm mostly trying to figure out the context, usually scans will spell it out clearly with some exceptions, to base off of the most likely outcome.

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#57 Posted by ShadowBoy21 (54 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

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#58 Posted by Dragonspine (245 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean and Raven win. Even without the Phoenix Force, Jean is one of the top 3 most powerful telepaths on the planet, and one of the top 2 telekinetics. It will be nothing to her to drop Kori. Just put her to sleep. Raven and Jean on WW would be a massacre. They'd flay her very soul.

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#59 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@dragonspine: @totu@agent41 Due to the eye Of Athena, Wonder Woman has utterly resisted full on assaults from TPs who are planetary, TPs who are so unquantifiable that they affected alternate timelines and realities (and yet Diana's resistance was so complete she wasn't even aware he was trying to attack her), and concentrated, hours long assaults from Skyfather TPs in their own realms where they are supreme, and where Diana was trapped and had no choice but to take it (and resist it) means that claiming Jean-for sure-would affect the Amazon is not feasible. The woman has also, on more than one occasion, resisted massive reality warping, including from uber powerful reality warper Queen Of Fables.

Add in the fact that said Amazon has moved faster than thought, and it becomes even more odious to proclaim Grey could take Diana out-for sure-so totally and immediately that Diana would come to a complete stop before her momentum carried her to the mutant and ended her.

And through either her lasso, or concentration, Wonder Woman has transported everywhere from the "Other Place" (where she rescued sister Amazon Artemis) to the Astral Planes---so Raven sending her away won't work. Also The Fires Of Hestia within the lasso protects Diana-and anyone encircled within it-from powerful magic attacks, so Raven affecting them that way is NOT a sure thing; and Diana has resisted Black Holes more than once, in one instance resisting one and pulling Martian Manhunter out of it simultaneously (usually, nothing can escape a Black Hole, not even light, so I don't think a woman strong enough to do that will be affected by Jean's telekinesis).

Finally, unlike many of her JLA team mates, both Post Crisis and N52 Diana is willing to take out an opponent-ask Max Lord, the legendary Medusa, the mythological Grendel, the Gods Deimos and Cottus, and many many more about that (and The "Rebirth" story arcs have merged the character's experiences and feats)---so mercy won't automatically be in play here.

Starfire is very fast herself, and doesn't need to be blood lusted to terminate an opponent. She can battle and affect Wonder Woman level characters, and has range weapons that can be administered at rapid speed---so the weaker in durability Raven and Jean duo have much to consider, and certainly don't have an easy conflict.

Having said that, the Raven/Jean duo is quite formidable in their own right, have undeniable, prodigious power, and the slightest opportunity will allow them to injure their opponents enough to go on to triumph over them...

...but claiming Raven and Jean can "stomp" Wonder Woman and Starfire in light of the above evidence would seem to be objectively untrue, not to mention a kinda deep disrespect of those character's powers and abilities.

Fair assessment?

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#60 Posted by gunchar16 (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

That is a special version of Jean, if we use that could we close this instantly as unnecessary missmatch.

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#61 Posted by Dragonspine (245 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows:

I don't believe that Jean would attack Diana with TP initially. Her TK is enough to detain her until Starfire has been dealt with. Her TK is enough to reduce her inertia to zero. You can't move at the speed of whatever if you literally can't move. Jean's TK is powerful enough to hold Diana in temporary stasis. In fact, Jean could probably hold them both in stasis. Yes, Starfire is powerful in her own right, but I think Raven and a multitasking Jean can take her out. That just leaves Diana. Sure, maybe she uses some plot element to make this more of a battle than it should be, but I think Raven and Jean win in the end.

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#62 Edited by gunchar16 (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: Yeah np buddy, i just wanted to make clear that i don't think she is a damsel in distress by any means.

Uhm i'm not sure what you mean?

Some are reaction(tagging and catching Wally and Zoom), some travel speed feats(keeping up with Wally and group effort with the Speedsters) and one of these travel + combat speed(blitzing the White Martian.

I would post scans, but i'm currently limited to a phone with crappy internet. But i found at least some links

Here with Wally

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11131/111311636/5964233-b4yewoh.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11131/111311636/5964234-dqa42pr.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11131/111311636/5964235-v5ohreu.jpg

Here with the group:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/5644246-6212233748-56136.jpg

Catching Wally:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/5644197-0743806023-56438.jpg

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#63 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (6867 posts) - - Show Bio

@gunchar16: it's not a special version it's the actual 616 Jean in her current state. You're the one that came in here bringing up all kinds of different versions of WW to make an argument, so now I'm doing it (petty AF right?). Per forum rules if the OP doesn't state the version then it's current. So Jean stomps!

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#64 Posted by deactivated-5bb52f8f25413 (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh and for those who's asking for versions, Jean doesn't have the PF here and WW is as pre-New 52.

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#65 Posted by PyroFN (6182 posts) - - Show Bio

@gunchar16: The one with Wally is definitely travel speed. Impressive, but we are dealing with reaction timing. The other gave her time to aim. Kinda like reaction based since it was the first try, but this kind of like having prep time. Nothing here to say she thinks as fast as the Flash, only moves in the first scans. The last is a little closer.

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#66 Edited by totu (777 posts) - - Show Bio
@agent41 said:

starfire never KO Post Crisis Wonder Woman. Diana>>>kori.

I don't see how Diana>>>Kori as Kori is leading at points in their fights. They did fight again after that KO, and there never was a clear winner between them, except that KO.

I can agree WW might be better physically but surely not enough to dominate Starfire, and Kori easily compensate with her starbolts so they are pretty close.

@theonewhoknows said:

@dragonspine: @totu@agent41 Due to the eye Of Athena, Wonder Woman has utterly resisted full on assaults from TPs who are planetary, TPs who are so unquantifiable that they affected alternate timelines and realities (and yet Diana's resistance was so complete she wasn't even aware he was trying to attack her), and concentrated, hours long assaults from Skyfather TPs in their own realms where they are supreme, and where Diana was trapped and had no choice but to take it (and resist it) means that claiming Jean-for sure-would affect the Amazon is not feasible. The woman has also, on more than one occasion, resisted massive reality warping, including from uber powerful reality warper Queen Of Fables.

Add in the fact that said Amazon has moved faster than thought, and it becomes even more odious to proclaim Grey could take Diana out-for sure-so totally and immediately that Diana would come to a complete stop before her momentum carried her to the mutant and ended her.

And through either her lasso, or concentration, Wonder Woman has transported everywhere from the "Other Place" (where she rescued sister Amazon Artemis) to the Astral Planes---so Raven sending her away won't work. Also The Fires Of Hestia within the lasso protects Diana-and anyone encircled within it-from powerful magic attacks, so Raven affecting them that way is NOT a sure thing; and Diana has resisted Black Holes more than once, in one instance resisting one and pulling Martian Manhunter out of it simultaneously (usually, nothing can escape a Black Hole, not even light, so I don't think a woman strong enough to do that will be affected by Jean's telekinesis).

Finally, unlike many of her JLA team mates, both Post Crisis and N52 Diana is willing to take out an opponent-ask Max Lord, the legendary Medusa, the mythological Grendel, the Gods Deimos and Cottus, and many many more about that (and The "Rebirth" story arcs have merged the character's experiences and feats)---so mercy won't automatically be in play here.

Starfire is very fast herself, and doesn't need to be blood lusted to terminate an opponent. She can battle and affect Wonder Woman level characters, and has range weapons that can be administered at rapid speed---so the weaker in durability Raven and Jean duo have much to consider, and certainly don't have an easy conflict.

Having said that, the Raven/Jean duo is quite formidable in their own right, have undeniable, prodigious power, and the slightest opportunity will allow them to injure their opponents enough to go on to triumph over them...

...but claiming Raven and Jean can "stomp" Wonder Woman and Starfire in light of the above evidence would seem to be objectively untrue, not to mention a kinda deep disrespect of those character's powers and abilities.

Fair assessment?

I agree is a fair assessment but I for one didn't said Raven and Jean will stomp, just that they will most likely win.

About Raven vs WW, regarding magic, well, I know Diana is highly resistant yet she was taken down (turned in stone, alongside almost everyone else, and presumably had her soul taken) by Trigon simply setting foot on Earth, and Raven use exactly same mystical and magical abilities and type of powers.

In fact Raven had absorbed, controlled and molded Diana soul at some point (and that when WW was a goddess, no less), slicing a part of it and fuse it in Darkseid soul without Darkseid even realize that.

Raven also taken down and put WW in time stasis once (alongside her JL) and she can control and manipulate time at will. If I am not mistaken, in rebirth series she (with a little help, true) had snatched out of Speed Force both Flashes and Deathstroke alike, in the same time (Deathstroke who had absorbed and was using same speed power as Wally West and was traveling up and down through the time stream).

She also apparently snatched Donna Troy out of WW lasso (you can see the lasso still hanging there, empty as Donna is missing and with the tail of Raven soul self going trough it)

http://i.imgur.com/b9UTlSt.jpg

So at least as magical/mystical powers and time manipualtion abilities, I say Raven can take down WW and Starfire, in most circumstances.

But I agree that it won't be a stomp, and Kori and Diana still have some chance if they go right from the begining fast and in full force and surprise somehow Jean and Raven. It won't be easy however as Raven do have some precog and know them already

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#67 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@dragonspine: If Jean doesn't attack with TP initially, then I'm afraid there's even less chance she can win. Diana's speed feats include fighting and lassoing Captain Marvel and Superman at super speeds while they were blood lusted (and therefore not "holding back" their speed), lassoing Barry Allen Flash twice, lassoing Amazo before the android could complete it's thought/threat/sentence-despite the creature having the combined speed of Superman and Diana at the time-and lassoing Zoom while sightless.

So since Jean doesn't have that kind of combat speed, I don't see how she can utilize TK before the Amazon nails her. Again, Diana has defied the pull of Black Holes. When you combine that kind of strength with that kind of FTL plus speed---I honestly don't see how the mutant can react with enough power and/or speed to stop Diana -for sure-before getting KO'D.

Raven is a lethal, potentially fatal threat---which is the reason I'm saying the battle can more or less go either way. But again, as the lasso has proven protection from powerful magic, evidence indicates the battle will not be as one sided as you think...

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#68 Posted by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu: Fair enough. Thank you for acknowledging Diana and Kori's powers and abilities, despite you feeling Raven and Jean win.

Due to both the Amazon and alien's massive combat and travel speed advantages, however, I think they would strike first, and therefore take a slight majority of wins

---but your reasoning is sound for the possibility that Raven and Jean win, as well.

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#69 Posted by bowlt_swagg_320 (2247 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

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#71 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (6867 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows: she has combat speed, what she doesn't have is physical stats of those speeds. The fact that she constantly fights with her mind and consistently blocks most attacks proves her combat speed in the area of her powers. She only needs to be aware of an opponent and have the ability to think a single thought. WW is not coming into this battle with her first attack being moving at speeds faster than thought or whatever, so her attacks will meet a bubble of tk force strong enough to take bloodlusted Binary. Jean can also just drag her opponents to the astral plane where telepaths of her caliber are reality warpers. Jean is fast enough to shield from light attacks at close range she can handle an attack from somebody moving considerably slower.

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#72 Posted by gunchar16 (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: She don't think as fast as Flash(nobody does, actually not even Zoom), but faster than Jean and just that is important☺. Also were that just the ones i foubd as link, there would be a lot more.

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#73 Edited by gunchar16 (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: Of course is it a special version, the ts even clarified no phoenix now. Or will you honestly tell me anyone would have used the Goddess of Truth as standard version for Diana for the short time it was current?

I just made a list with standart versions, cause many people simply forget to clarify it and don't even know about the current version rule).

It's post crisis+N52 and no phoenix, WW knows about Raven and Starfire too, so they will even start with blitzing and team 2 wins now.

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#74 Posted by gunchar16 (1724 posts) - - Show Bio
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#75 Posted by agent41 (15573 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu: kori never defeated Diana in Post Crisis. So yes. Post Crisis Diana>>>kori. And Post Crisis Diana has taken worse than kori's blasts.

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#76 Posted by katrurius17 (1146 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhysdurden:

Pre-52 and no PF for Jean huh, yeah well have to give it Wonder Woman and Starfire then.

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#77 Posted by MasterSkywalker (3609 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

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#78 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (6867 posts) - - Show Bio

@gunchar16: so you have irrefutable evidence that WWs thought processes are always super fast enough even though she experiences the world in real time? Seems to me like can increase the speed of her thought processes, meaning she is regular in thought process until she changes that. Since she experiences the world in real time that means she is not in blitz mode all the time. Jean's telepathic abilities already prove her thought processes are faster than normal anyway. So moving faster than the speed of normal thought does not mean you are faster in thought than a telepath. Telepathic thoughts can move over planetary and intergalactic distances without time passing therefore WW is not faster than Jean can think in a straight up face to face battle. Hell, Jean has telepathically sensed things in other dimensions as they happened.

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#79 Edited by totu (777 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows said:

@totu: Fair enough. Thank you for acknowledging Diana and Kori's powers and abilities, despite you feeling Raven and Jean win.

Well, they are formidable indeed and I agree they have their chance here

Due to both the Amazon and alien's massive combat and travel speed advantages, however, I think they would strike first, and therefore take a slight majority of wins

Here is a bit tricky and I don't think they can speedblitz that easy, maybe except in some favourable instance. They can be extremely fast indeed, but it won't be easy to strike first (if they even start going full out from the begining, which is not sure since OP said everyone starts with morals on).

First, Raven have some precognition, and beside that she already know both of them and what they are capable of. Then she can be just as fast as combat speed if she wish too

Here she easily dodge Superboy strikes, from punches from only an arms lenght distance to telekinetic attacks, basically playing with him (later she will mind manipulating him iirc)

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/80033/4112938-raven+vs+jon+2.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/80033/4112939-raven+vs+jon+3.jpg

And that was a bloodlusted Superboy who really wanted to kill her, the son of Superman from the future, arguably about as fast and powerful as his dad (he did killed most of the metahumans of the future iirc)

She can also teleport instantaneously and move as such faster than Wally West can run

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4953398-teleportation+raven+teleports+faster+than+kid+flash+runs.jpg

So I am not sure she can be blitzed. Not impossible, she might be distracted, or taken somehow by surprise, but I say in at least a slight majority of cases she won't be hit first.

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#80 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (6867 posts) - - Show Bio

@gunchar16: no it's not a special version it's the current version. OP only changed it because he apparently didn't know that if not specified current is used by default per forum rules. You made a list of different Diana's from universes that weren't current. This is one Jean from one multiverse and at the height of her power is Phoenix by way of natural progression since she is a piece of it and Death stated her very soul was craved from it, so Jean is always Phoenix whether she uses the power or not per the Phoenix and Jean themselves.

Raven knows them as well and as stated Jean can have telepathic conversations that can equal years (as she has trained X-Men, copied years of flight training and anatomy as well as jamming years of information into a mind with no physical time passing instantly). So she can get all that info from Raven instantly effectively countering speed blitz.

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#81 Edited by Yarva (2937 posts) - - Show Bio

Starfire is probably the weak link here but Raven is easily consumed by the emotions around her and so she can't be depended on. I think team 2 can win it because Wonder Woman is highly resistant to telepathy and combined with the fact that Jean's first move is usually not telepathy and that Raven might get overwhelmed by emotions in this fight, that it spells the end for team 1.

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#82 Edited by PyroFN (6182 posts) - - Show Bio

@gunchar16: Speed of thought. That means as fast as you think of things like sleep or shield. Note how Superman speaks of changing his perception to match that of the Flash. Superman is one who rivals the Flash in speed and has tagged him, yet his thought process is no different and has to actively change it in order to think as such. Ergo why Flash could blitz Jean and Superman can't. Ergo I'm wondering where Wonder Woman falls. Travel speed and tagging don't equal a thought process like this.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/97919/4617910-vydnp.jpg

https://m.vk.com/photo-125124990_456241999?list=post-125124990_1911

Edit: This is what we mean by faster thought process. Tagging the Flash doesn't equal this type of thought process unless specified.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123873/2766027-perceptions.jpg

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#83 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (6867 posts) - - Show Bio

@yarva: Jean can manipulate powers she can help Raven if her empathy is a problem, which Jean will sense as she is just as empathic as she is telepathic. Jean is a dual psi, her first move depends on how she feels. She has lead with both or either on several occasions. For example her attack on Apocalypse was both, her handling of Binary was both. Her attack on Emma was both. Her attack on attack on Maddie was both. Jean can attack your mind and body simultaneously.

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#84 Edited by Marishtar (2052 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

To use travel speed for thoughts is completely absurd, and PC Wonder Woman's actual speed feats are much better than Jeans.

Therefore is she significantly faster and if we use high ends will it become even worse.

And if Wonder Woman would perceive the world in "real time" could each Street thug tag her, she does that maybe outside of fights(and even then often not).

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#85 Edited by Marishtar (2052 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn:

Supes never rivaled Flash in speed(especially not Wally), from were do you even got that idea?

Also has each character fighting at actual superspeed a fastet thinking process and a different perception, otherwise couldn't they fight properly.

More importantly is that PC Wonder Woman's speed feats are much better than Jean Grey's, therefore is she significantly faster.

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#86 Edited by Marishtar (2052 posts) - - Show Bio

@rhysdurden:

With current versions no phoenix force would i say team 1 wins handily, but PC turns the odds.

So team 2 wins this.

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#87 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (6867 posts) - - Show Bio

@marishtar: she is faster physically her thoughts would only be fast in concert with her ability to physically move which is at super speed. That is not how her mind operates normally or she would see the world frozen all the time. As a powerful and well trained telepath, Jean's brain/mind processes information far faster and more efficiently than normal. She often linked the X-Men in battle while allowing all of them to experience each other's perspective while being able to focus individually, and on one occasion being able to increase powers and absorb their pain while she fought another opponent, her ability to think and process information is cemented and fast enough to think before somebody who has to go through several steps. Jean can put up a shield before Diana touches her. Jean can hold back the consciousness of the Phoenix trying to take her, she has more than enough power and time to enter Diana's mind.

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#88 Posted by PyroFN (6182 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn:

Supes never rivaled Flash in speed(especially not Wally), from were do you even got that idea?

No Caption Provided

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Yes, Irealize Flash is faster, but to rival is to be i competition with someone, and its clear that Clark and he casually are relatively are at similar speeds. I do know who is faster when things are serious.

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Also has each character fighting at actual superspeed a fastet thinking process and a different perception, otherwise couldn't they fight properly.

Is this a question or a statement? Either way, the scan with Superman and Flash clearly depicts that super-speed does not equal speedy perception automatically. Its something they have to actively use.

No Caption Provided

"Now that I've sped up my senses to match Flash's speed..." -Superman (with a look of amazement on his face mind you)

More importantly is that PC Wonder Woman's speed feats are much better than Jean Grey's, therefore is she significantly faster.

I would like proof that Wonder Woman's thought process being like the Flash, for if what you say is true, surely it would be recorded in her history somewhere. Right? If I don't see anything proving her perception is heightened much like the scan above, I will have to assume this is a situation like Superman. Not a good thing against this.

No Caption Provided

"....with the speed of thought--LITERALLY--"

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#89 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu: @pyrofn:

Wonder Woman blocked Darkseid's Omega Beams-that were fast enough to nearly get Flash and DID strike Superman

No Caption Provided
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The beams taxed Flash and Superman to their limits to avoid them (eventually, managing to hit Supes). So I find it hard to believe that a woman that has the combat speed to block these beams-at POINT BLANK RANGE-can't block Raven's or Jean's attacks, or beat them to the punch-both of which are SLOWER than she.

She is fast enough to fight Zod and Faora, two COMBAT SKILLED KRYPTONIANS simultaneously

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/superman-and-wonder-woman-vs-zod-and-faora-1.jpg and https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125203/3869681-6588386027-Super.jpg but according to some people she "can't" avoid Raven's or Jean's assaults or get to them before they can blink.

As noted previously, Diana has shown the combat skill and speed to lasso Superman and Captain Marvel when they were BLOODLUSTED and not "holding back" their speed, Barry Allen Flash on two separate occasions, Zoom (despite the fact she was SIGHTLESS at the time, and had received THREE VICIOUS IMPS from him) and Amazo even before the android could complete it's thought/sentence/threat (which is truly remarkable since Amazo has a super computer brain, and the artificial adversary had the combined speed of Superman and Wonder Woman at the time)---

and has shown the combat speed to block trauma AT LEAST equal that mode of attack, like here when she Deflects multiple parts of the Shattered God. These parts crossed all corners of the known universe in a short period of time from Oa to Earth and back again. This adversary was capable of obliterating and/or creating universes when this being fully assembled. No matter how much one were to lowball how fast the parts moved, there's also trillions upon trillions of particles (TRILLIONS with a T) and she held fast against the assault, not ever being so much as scratched.

The whole point of characters having such speed is that they are faster than others who don't have it. So what's the point of them having it if this can just be ignored, and it claimed others who DON'T have such speed can out react them anyway?

If Diana was only fast, but didn't have her prodigious strength, TP resistance, and magic protection-both personal, and through the lasso-then that would be one thing; that way, I could see Raven or Jean for sure

one shot stopping the Amazon before she reached them. But Diana does have all three elements---so it would have to be that her strength, magic protection, and speed momentum could be shut down simultaneously, instantly before the Amazon reached them.

Maybe if they started a world or more apart (and, even that far a distance can be covered in the blink of an eye when FTL plus speed is utilized)---but, say, 20, 30, 50, even 500 feet or so?

Realistically, I just don't see it.

Because fights are funny things, and Raven and Jean are so powerful, I'm willing to suspend belief and go with the idea that the TP/Magic duo can get a fair share of wins---

---but evidence would seem to indicate them getting a substantial victory margin is just not feasible...

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#90 Posted by P00TY (5781 posts) - - Show Bio

Since this is morals on, we can eliminate a speed blitz happening for a majority. It may happen a couple times so Team 2 wins 2/10

Starfire is a mental weak link. They possess her and take out WW. Team 1 wins 8/10.

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#91 Posted by PyroFN (6182 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu: @pyrofn:

Wonder Woman blocked Darkseid's Omega Beams-that were fast enough to nearly get Flash and DID strike Superman

No Caption Provided
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The beams taxed Flash and Superman to their limits to avoid them (eventually, managing to hit Supes). So I find it hard to believe that a woman that has the combat speed to block these beams-at POINT BLANK RANGE-can't block Raven's or Jean's attacks, or beat them to the punch-both of which are SLOWER than she.

And there's our explanation. The nature of these beams are to relentlessly pursue the target. if they were as fast or faster they would've caught them much earlier. either that or the beams gain speed the longer they move. Needlessly, Wonder Woman that has blocked lasers point blank.

No Caption Provided

If you look to the left, you will see Jean blocking laser beams from the Stranger.

She is fast enough to fight Zod and Faora, two COMBAT SKILLED KRYPTONIANS simultaneously

Impressive. Last I checked though, the argument against Jean is that Diana would blitz her before she reacts. If I'm not correct, Diana would be already in motion fighting both of them simultaneously, no?


https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/superman-and-wonder-woman-vs-zod-and-faora-1.jpg and https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125203/3869681-6588386027-Super.jpg but according to some people she "can't" avoid Raven's or Jean's assaults or get to them before they can blink.

That is the thing. Jeans assaults goes beyond action. It is pure thought, and you need to argue that Jean can't block her before she thinks. And according to the scan above, Superman has to actively speed up his perception in order to see things the way the Flash does, inferring that he doesn't think at super speeds, but rather he merely thinks and acts like any other being that isn't a speedster. Your job will to be to prove Wonder Woman is the same way as the Flash, otherwise, I will be led to believe that she is much like Superman in this scenario.

Take a look below at the scan. "Now that I've sped up my senses to match Flash's speed..." That insinuates he doesn't normally see things in this way, especially with that look of amazement on his face, whereas Flash is used to it because he normally percieves and therefore thinks this way. I'm willing to believe Diana is like these two, but as to which will be up to you to show me.

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As noted previously, Diana has shown the combat skill and speed to lasso Superman and Captain Marvel when they were BLOODLUSTED and not "holding back" their speed, Barry Allen Flash on two separate occasions, Zoom (despite the fact she was SIGHTLESS at the time, and had received THREE VICIOUS IMPS from him) and Amazo even before the android could complete it's thought/sentence/threat (which is truly remarkable since Amazo has a super computer brain, and the artificial adversary had the combined speed of Superman and Wonder Woman at the time)---

and has shown the combat speed to block trauma AT LEAST equal that mode of attack, like here when she Deflects multiple parts of the Shattered God. These parts crossed all corners of the known universe in a short period of time from Oa to Earth and back again. This adversary was capable of obliterating and/or creating universes when this being fully assembled. No matter how much one were to lowball how fast the parts moved, there's also trillions upon trillions of particles (TRILLIONS with a T) and she held fast against the assault, not ever being so much as scratched.

As awesome as his feat is, I am gonna guess this is Diana at her absolute best and trying incredibly hard, since their are the facts of her being tagged by others slower than this and telepaths. (In regards to telepaths, I mean they reach her mind before she can stop them) Another reason for my belief in her not always operating at this level casually is the strain she seems to be having, evidently shown by her alling to Zeus.

My rebuttal to this would be her ability to just scan and shut down minds in the matter of seconds she uses her telepathy as evidence of this feat against the N'Garai horde. (Not sure how many there wore though)

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There is aso the matter of Meme, who absorbed other humans within him, including their minds. Jean went through each one and found Meme's mind and killed him.

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Then there is the linking multiple minds into a telepathic conference room.

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Then there was an experiment that can infect a host like a virus. Jean suspended his motor functions telekinetically and was keeping up with his mind telepathically, despite it dividing into millions of little brains as Jean puts it. (Do not mistake the fire. Jean has been manifesting fire and Phoenix raptors for a while after her daughters death, taking up the costume and name Phoenix in her honor. Anyways, Jeans molecular level telekinesis lets her produce telekinetic pyrokinesis)

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The other feat that comes to mind is a feat involving Cerebro, but a feat that Xavier said was impossible even with Cerebro. Jean took Xavier's psyche and split into all the mutant minds on Earth and set up a trap so that once Cassandra Nova with Xavier's body put on Cerebro, they would all return to Charles. She did it all before Cassandra Nova reached her, mind you she was already heading for Cerebro when Jean accomplished this feat. Yes, Cerebro amped her power, but it was Jean who found every single mutant mind and hid a piece of Xavier. Can you imagine scanning billions of minds all over the earth to find single individuals to hide something before a monster comes to attack you? You'd have to move very fast to do all that she did, a feat that again, Xavier himself said was impossible even with Cerebro.

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The whole point of characters having such speed is that they are faster than others who don't have it. So what's the point of them having it if this can just be ignored, and it claimed others who DON'T have such speed can out react them anyway?

It isn't ignored. The context also needs to be taken under consideration.

If Diana was only fast, but didn't have her prodigious strength, TP resistance, and magic protection-both personal, and through the lasso-then that would be one thing; that way, I could see Raven or Jean for sureone

Strength can be countered by telekinesis, telepathic resistance is circumstantial and can be broken as Jean has demonstrate before, and the same can be said about magic. it depends on the psychic strength and most importantly, speed in this particular case.

shot stopping the Amazon before she reached them. But Diana does have all three elements---so it would have to be that her strength, magic protection, and speed momentum could be shut down simultaneously, instantly before the Amazon reached them.

We need a measure of her strength, the rules of her magical protection, and we are already speaking about her speed. Jean can multitask her telepathy and telekinesis after all.

Maybe if they started a world or more apart (and, even that far a distance can be covered in the blink of an eye when FTL plus speed is utilized)---but, say, 20, 30, 50, even 500 feet or so?

That would make this a clear win for Jean and Raven, for it would give her enough time to put up necessary defenses and work down those magical defenses.

Realistically, I just don't see it.

Hopefully you can see my skepticism as well.

Because fights are funny things, and Raven and Jean are so powerful, I'm willing to suspend belief and go with the idea that the TP/Magic duo can get a fair share of wins---

Same.

---but evidence would seem to indicate them getting a substantial victory margin is just not feasible...

Maybe, maybe not. We are stubborn, but not unreasonable. Show me what you got.

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#92 Posted by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals on, Wonder Woman has used her speed right off, even against unfamiliar opponents countless times. Starfire, even morals on, starts right off wanting to terminate her foes, barely holding back only because of the prompting and pleading of Nightwing and her other fellow Titans. Both Diana and Kori are aware of Raven's prowess, so there is absolutely no feasible, logical, legitimate reason why they wouldn't use their speed to get to the Raven/Jean duo as quickly as possible. "Twisting And Turning To Get Out of Conceding An Obvious Point" doesn't count as a legitimate reason.

Raven and Jean are absolutely powerful enough to win. But their getting an outrageous win/loss ratio advantage is simply, objectively, demonstrably not feasible.

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#93 Posted by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: The speed feats I reference is primarily Diana having to move at super fast speeds immediately (there is no "slow build", so to speak)---this can be viewed in the see-with-one's-own-eyes scans provided. I have given several examples of her strength, speed, magical protection and TP resistance, but I'll do it again by first, repeating an earlier post-

Due to the eye Of Athena, Wonder Woman has utterly resisted full on assaults from TPs who are planetary, TPs who are so unquantifiable that they affected alternate timelines and realities (and yet Diana's resistance was so complete she wasn't even aware he was trying to attack her), and concentrated, hours long assaults from Skyfather TPs in their own realms where they are supreme, and where Diana was trapped and had no choice but to take it (and resist it) means that claiming Jean-for sure-would affect the Amazon is not feasible. The woman has also, on more than one occasion, resisted massive reality warping, including from uber powerful reality warper Queen Of Fables.

Add in the fact that said Amazon has moved faster than thought, and it becomes even more odious to proclaim Grey could take Diana out-for sure-so totally and immediately that Diana would come to a complete stop before her momentum carried her to the mutant and ended her.

And through either her lasso, or concentration, Wonder Woman has transported everywhere from the "Other Place" (where she rescued sister Amazon Artemis) to the Astral Planes---so Raven sending her away won't work. Also The Fires Of Hestia within the lasso protects Diana-and anyone encircled within it-from powerful magic attacks, so Raven affecting them that way is NOT a sure thing; and Diana has resisted Black Holes more than once, in one instance resisting one and pulling Martian Manhunter out of it simultaneously (usually, nothing can escape a Black Hole, not even light, so I don't think a woman strong enough to do that will be affected by Jean's telekinesis).

Finally, unlike many of her JLA team mates, both Post Crisis and N52 Diana is willing to take out an opponent-ask Max Lord, the legendary Medusa, the mythological Grendel, the Gods Deimos and Cottus, and many many more about that (and The "Rebirth" story arcs have merged the character's experiences and feats)---so mercy won't automatically be in play here.

Starfire is very fast herself, and doesn't need to be blood lusted to terminate an opponent. She can battle and affect Wonder Woman level characters, and has range weapons that can be administered at rapid speed---so the weaker in durability Raven and Jean duo have much to consider, and certainly don't have an easy conflict.

Having said that, the Raven/Jean duo is quite formidable in their own right, have undeniable, prodigious power, and the slightest opportunity will allow them to injure their opponents enough to go on to triumph over them...

...but claiming Raven and Jean can "stomp" Wonder Woman and Starfire in light of the above evidence would seem to be objectively untrue, not to mention a kinda deep disrespect of those character's powers and abilities.

Fair assessment?

A couple of other feats

Diana is strong enough to close the portal to the Phantom Zone even as Mongul and Kryptonian Non-two top tier villains-fail. This is next level strength and durability

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Wonder Woman has the ability to grab energy. She did what Non and Mongul together could not. That indicates she could resist Jean's TK-Black Holes and dimensional barriers would seem to be a great deal heavier to overcome than what Jean has displayed.

And since her further strength and durability feats include as mentioned before withstanding the crushing entropy of Black Holes, Nekron's magic lightning, Zeus' God tier lightning, Ares power blasts assaults, and Darkseid's Omega Beams-all of those traumas delivered at point blank range-and Superman nearly placing her in the sun, super speed punching her while blood lusted, and blasting her face with hotter than the sun heat vision simultaneously (at one point, she placed her hands over his eyes and the beams were bouncing off them, yet more evidence of incredible durability), I don't think Jean could hold her still with her powers fast enough to prevent her from KOing, BFRing, or even slaying her.

I don't like to "win" debates by simply willfully ignoring the prowess of the other opponent(s)-hence why I say that despite that I feel I have countered and accounted for everything they could do, I accept the premise that Raven and Jean can win.

But the notion that they could just walk all over Diana and Kori, and/or that the Amazon/alien have no chance to win?

NO WAY.

Evidence indicates that notion is absolutely false.

Wonder Woman and Starfire clearly have the capacity to win a majority as well.

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#94 Posted by P00TY (5781 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: Take a look below at the scan. "Now that I've sped up my senses to match Flash's speed..." That insinuates he doesn't normally see things in this way, especially with that look of amazement on his face, whereas Flash is used to it because he normally percieves and therefore thinks this way. I'm willing to believe Diana is like these two, but as to which will be up to you to show me.

This is very true. While WW and Superman are able to increase their reaction, perception time... it isn't an automatic thing. They don't just walk around all day like that. As you have shown, Team One only has to think. While team 2 has to think AND move. Advantage Team 1

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#95 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn Depending on the situation, Wonder Woman and Superman can adapt their speed right away-certainly faster than either Jean or Raven can move. Superman was in a friendly situation in that diner with Flash---there was absolutely no reason for him to frenziedly adapt his speed then---but earlier in that same story when he had to catch an out of control Flash who was moving in attoseconds, running faster than time, and warping reality (and Supes did eventually catch and stop Barry) Kal adjusted his perceptions and speed immediately-certainly much, MUCH faster than Jean or Raven ever could.

Likewise, in the Amazo incident, Diana immediately sprung into action and roped the android-who has a super computer brain and had Superman and Wonder Woman's combined speed at the time-before it completed it's thought/threat/sentence.

Claiming a woman who has combat speed like that has NO chance to get to Raven and Jean before they move is willfully ignoring feats, evidence, and logic beyond all reason.

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#96 Edited by totu (777 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows said:

@totu: @pyrofn:

Wonder Woman blocked Darkseid's Omega Beams-that were fast enough to nearly get Flash and DID strike Superman

The beams taxed Flash and Superman to their limits to avoid them (eventually, managing to hit Supes). So I find it hard to believe that a woman that has the combat speed to block these beams-at POINT BLANK RANGE-can't block Raven's or Jean's attacks, or beat them to the punch-both of which are SLOWER than she.

She is fast enough to fight Zod and Faora, two COMBAT SKILLED KRYPTONIANS simultaneously

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/superman-and-wonder-woman-vs-zod-and-faora-1.jpg and https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125203/3869681-6588386027-Super.jpg but according to some people she "can't" avoid Raven's or Jean's assaults or get to them before they can blink.

and has shown the combat speed to block trauma AT LEAST equal that mode of attack, like here when she Deflects multiple parts of the Shattered God. These parts crossed all corners of the known universe in a short period of time from Oa to Earth and back again. This adversary was capable of obliterating and/or creating universes when this being fully assembled. No matter how much one were to lowball how fast the parts moved, there's also trillions upon trillions of particles (TRILLIONS with a T) and she held fast against the assault, not ever being so much as scratched.

The whole point of characters having such speed is that they are faster than others who don't have it. So what's the point of them having it if this can just be ignored, and it claimed others who DON'T have such speed can out react them anyway?

If Diana was only fast, but didn't have her prodigious strength, TP resistance, and magic protection-both personal, and through the lasso-then that would be one thing; that way, I could see Raven or Jean for sure

one shot stopping the Amazon before she reached them. But Diana does have all three elements---so it would have to be that her strength, magic protection, and speed momentum could be shut down simultaneously, instantly before the Amazon reached them.

---but evidence would seem to indicate them getting a substantial victory margin is just not feasible...

There are few problems here.

1- WW will surely, one hundred percent, blitz Raven (I don't talk about Jean now as I am way less knowledgeable about her).

This can be very debatable as Raven can both teleport around faster than Wally West can run, and she had easily dodged from very close distance (arm lenght) strikes from a bloodlusted Superboy (Superman son from the future, who should be at least as fast as the regular Superman), lightinings from Trigon or shots from Cyborg arm canon.

Saying that WW will surely hit her is hard to prove. Then we need to count Raven precognition and the fact she already know WW and what she is capable of. Also the fact that Raven wasn't KOed by some Trigon lightnings (she was affected, but not KOed), her brother punches or Cassie/Wondergirl punch (who had KOed Etrigan for example).

2- speed of thought vs speed of light

Now the speed of thought is slower than the speed of light. The process of forming a thought and transimiting it takes much longer on that level than the speed of light. Sure, on long distances you can say the speed of thought is way much faster, I can think I am now on some distant solar system and I am there in a blink of an eye while the light needs hundreds or thousands of years to get there. But at brain level and translated to thinking or transimiting the idea to the body, the speed of light is much faster.

However WW (or Starfire, or Raven or Jean) still need to form that thought before spring to action.

And as Flash and his light speed thought process was mentioned around, Raven had actually read his mind and controlled and manipulated his emotions without Wally even realize that

http://i.imgur.com/xrlJos1.jpg

So Raven have no problems getting in Flash mind and manipulating him even if he think at those incredible speeds. And she can do that without Flash even realize whats going on.

As I doubt WW can think faster than Wally I don't think at such she will be able to out think Raven, or escape Raven moving first with her attack.

3- WW resisting to Raven mystical/magical powers (also her soul self and her time control abilities).

As I said, WW is highly resistant to magic, but not invulnerable. She was easily put in time stasis by Raven before, she was turned in stone (and her soul taken) by Trigon without even face him, and Raven use the same type of powers.

Raven had absorbed and molded her soul (slicing a part of it, fusing it with Darkseid one) when WW was actually a goddess (of truth or so, don't remember exactly)

4- WW resisiting to Raven empathy/telepathy

This is tricky again, as Raven was capable to control and mold to her needs an entire universe of souls and thoughts

As such, I say team one will win a majority. It won't be a stomp, I said that since the begining, and Diana and Kori (kori have even better chances as she can use her starbolts before even actually move) going all out from the begining and surprising Raven and Jean can bring them the victory. But it will be hard to go like that and I say Raven and Jean team have the first chance to win.

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#97 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@totu:

1 We can only go by statistical probability and statistics-and Diana's many, many speed feats combined with her unparalleled combat skills-say that more likely and more often than not, Wonder Woman would reach Raven before she could move.

2 Unlike Wonder Woman, Wally West has no natural TP resistance (once, when he had before hand warning, he sped up his mind to the point that he blocked the TP attempt) but if he doesn't know its it coming-like in the incident with Raven-then of course he was overcome. As Diana's feats, show, the Eye Of Athena gives Diana such natural great TP resistance that she wasn't even aware when the unquantifiable, alternate realities and timelines affecting telepath assaulted her. So (A) it is doubtful if said Titan gets into Diana's mind to know of an imminent assault and (B) if said Titan would it would be fast do to it in time to stop Diana's fists or weapons

3 Raen's wins were Diana taken by surprise; wouldn't be situation

4 If Diana is grasping lasso of trut, it's not for sure Raben's attak would work

I know Jean and partner possibly win-but no way a "stomp"---glad you agree.

(some pad keys aren't working...)

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#98 Posted by tj849 (8569 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 has someone who can mindrape and raven is the daughter of trigon. Team 1

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#99 Posted by PyroFN (6182 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows: It doesn't necessarily have to be a slow build. It could simply be a crouch and take off. You know, getting ready?

Well, that's a testament to power, BUT telepathy isn't all power. In fact, pure skill can often overrule power in telepathic battles in the Marvel Universe. How's about some feats of skill from said telepaths. Not to say Jean is weak, but she isn't all psychic strength. So, please feats of skill please.

I didn't see where it said she moved faster than thought. Where does it say it again?

Telekinesis can be used in more ways than simply throwing someone around. Not to mention Diana was actively resisting the Black Hole, who's to say she will know when Jeans tk will activate? Is she suddenly a skilled telepath?

I never mentioned anything about mercy. If you are insinuating Jean won't kill (we both know Raven isn't above killing) you'd be wrong. Though Jean would avoid killing as much as possible, like any superhero, she is not above killing.

Don't mean to disrespect them, but with the lack of evidence for Starfire to have any psychic defense, the need for evidence for either of them to have a thought perception similar to Flash, and with Jean and Raven being the most powerful in their own universes in most cases, there is still compelling evidence that this battle isnt heavily in the psychics favor.

What evidence is there that the Phantom Zone portal is any stronger than a Black Hole, let alone telekinesis?

The Superman feat sounds like her at her best. Not her in a casual confrontation. She knows Superman for what he is. She has no idea what Jean is capable of. Raven sure, but that gives more evidence for her to go for Raven before Jean.

Where have I ignored anything? Each paragraph was an answer to the evidence you were presenting. Like I keep saying, there are circumstances and contexts to consider when looking at different feats. I do it with Jean to, as evidence by my admitting the splitting Xavier's consciousness feat was done with Cerebro. I very much realize the scenarios Jean would lose in because she lacks uncertain areas.

I will take your word for it when I see some of the skepticism I have above and in the last comment I put, put to rest.

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#100 Posted by PyroFN (6182 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows: I will also take the liberty to answer some of the things pointed at Totu.

1) And science agrees that one has to think before doing. And comic evidence shows that Superman (canonically faster than Wonder Woman) has to increase his perception speed to match that of the Flashes actively. You mention there was a scan that shows Diana is much like the Flash. Please show it again.

2) I still need to know the circumstances and rules the Eye of Athena works under. A little detail I asked for and have not gotten.

3) This one is probably valid. Don't know the circumstances.

4) You always mention the lasso of truth. What is the lasso of truth supposed to do against a psychic?

There is also still the Starfire turning against Diana scenario to take into consideration. With Starfire giving Diana pause at one point, that gives more time for team 1 to wear Diana down, even if Diana manages to take down Starfire. By then, the girls will have the prep needed. A stomp? I don't know. But this is one scenario where Raven isn't exactly needed, aka Jean soloing, though keeping Eaven is probably a safer bet.