Jean & Rachel Grey vs Madelyne Pryor & Selene

Rules:

Morals off for everyone

No psi-leeching/draining

No phoenix for team Grey. No Magic for team Hellfire Club

Basic Knowledge

I can't with this jean copies 😷

After HOX, even Jean is a copy of Jean lmao

I'm leaning towards Jeanchel in a good fight.

Team 1 being morals off + Team 2 not being able to use any magic is a big advantage for Team 1.

Team 1

its funny cuz its true

OT: The OG Greys win

Team One in a good fight. Neither Maddie or Selene will be pushovers, but Jean and Rachel have faced them before.

I'm not even hesitant on this.

Rachel and Jean can stomp.

Without magic or drain Selene just has a Shadow form that Rachel has reversed before.

@koays: Selene has her life force draining. It's only Jean and Maddie that can't drain

@marvelfan1992: Oh I see...... That changes alot. I'll get back to you

team 1 will be able to overwhelm team 2 with telepathy and take the win

Pryor massacred Rachel not too long ago, and Selene can definitely keep Jean busy. Team 2 for the win.

@stormcell: So please explain how in the hell Pryor is going to repeat that specific instance again? Or what on earth Selene is going to do to win?

I'm yawning with anticipation on how you'll leap over this logic hole without tripping over your nonsense and falling in.

Pryor would just repeat what she did to Rachel in that Arkea story arc.

As for Selene, she can use her magic to prevent other people from using their psi-powers like she did to Rachel in Uncanny X-Men #191: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Lo6QaCn0RmuLh8w9p4ggTpKAAQ3xK9Opz9uePKU1HhrCc5Q_yHrM037-71GMNU3Ut0X_94bvE0kc=s1600

Selene could also use her ability to bring inanimate objects to life force Jean to fight things like this: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/fnL9fs-WvziHvyU8ubnpNJuCnKCSyevoHCPLR-_WAnmLHFPuPuVGyganHZMMaXhcMdcQC70boMZS=s1600

Notice that after Selene's stone giants attacked Magma how Selene turned her attention to other things: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/lBUzxsemL7xrd54uf8jFWJBrsNuXfOdyIuZrgiKXUcUUmMDX7FH5eDWSuqrK01H5k1LrfP3bc69-=s1600

Then, when Magma resurfaced, we learn from what she said that the giants kept coming after her even while Selene turned her attention elsewhere: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/io1F5HNeg_UAAh7blceRs_JDYMemPbg1nNyqI8DQdbd5BtZ_KXAL-F4_FicEzubtpFQddV0rsOcU=s1600

So, while Jean is having to use her TK to defend against those statues, Selene can focus her full concentration on attacking Jean telepathically as her shadow form sweeps through Jean's force-field to drain her life force. This is possible since such golems don't require Selene's constant use of power or concentration once she animates them.

Selene has more avenues to win against Jean than Jean does against her. Jean's TK would be useless against Selene's shadow form which leaves only her TP. I think Selene can find a way around that.

Lol...yea that's about what I thought.

So your arguments are

1- Rachel loses to a technique that only got her the first time because she didn't know about it and it had just been invented.

&

2- Jean loses do to a trap that teenage Magma broke free of, combined with near featless TP.

Ok so lets pretend that Rachel doesn't know to avoid the attack from the person who used it on her already.

And that Jean can't counter.....rocks.

Just what happens when the Grey's switch opponents, and Maddie get's stomped because Jean has beat her almost twice already, and Selene gets beat because Rachel is stronger then she was the last 2 times she beat her?

1) How do you know that Rachel can counter that attack? Can you show proof? Rachel loses 95% of her psychic battles with other telepaths. I have no reason to believe she can counter Pryor.

2) Magma and Jean have different powersets. Magma melted her way through those statues by raising the temperature of her magma form. Jean doesn't have that power. So, while Jean is distracted, fighting those statues, Selene puts all of her concentration into a psychic attack like this: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/JZ_0-By2WwylIJfDWka_stss32MnRXNVm1dcVqnYBP1t4TJltEBl9w2xx1sNLXJiVCcC_WanOz1X=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/K0uSjnF1WSpuDKuJUBPffn8UbaecFHr1e2D4go-tGKWhbzCiF7DO8pBTrf17eylS6qI-oXNXvOQd=s1600

Then, I see you missed the scan where Selene used her magic to prevent Rachel from using her psi-powers: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Lo6QaCn0RmuLh8w9p4ggTpKAAQ3xK9Opz9uePKU1HhrCc5Q_yHrM037-71GMNU3Ut0X_94bvE0kc=s1600

What's to stop her from using such spells against Jean?

I'll admit that Jean is a more powerful telepath than base-level Selene's TP power level (if Selene powers up by snacking on a bunch of people before the fight, then that's another story altogether). However, while a straight TP fight is Jean's only avenue of winning this fight, I think Selene has ways to get around Jean's advantage.

Bottom line, I believe Selene has more avenues to victory than Jean in a match-up between the two.

The final point is this is two-against-two. Once Pryor deals with Rachel, she can help Selene against Jean. I'm not saying Jean and Rachel can't win, only that I think the other side is more likely to prevail.

3) If the partners are swapped, I believe Pryor vs. Jean can go on for a very long time. As for Selene vs. Rachel, if Selene uses her magic, or if she can divide Rachel's concentration between fighting inanimate objects to weaken her enough to where she can beat her out telepathically, it's over.

Also, there is the issue that force-fields don't stop Selene. Her shadow form can pass right through them, allowing her to drain the life force of her foe. Once Selene's shadow makes contact with whichever member of the other team she fights, it's over. I don't think either Rachel or Jean would be able to stop Selene before she can reach them with her shadow.

As for your crack about Jean struggling against rock giants, it seems as if Selene can fortify inanimate objects, making them stronger and more durable than they'd normally be given how hard Rachel had to work to keep that tidal wave floor from overcoming her. She's probably increasing the molecular density of the objects she brings to life in some of these instances to achieve this.

1- Rachel has actually won 11 of at least 20 of the TP battles she's been in with other telepaths. That's more then anyone, Xavier included....has even been.

On top of that, Rachel's power levels increased dramatically since that fight, and she's one-shot characters with more powerful feats and credibility then Maddie has.

But to put this in a way you'd understand Maddie beating Rachel with anything considering what she's done with TP since her character was created....It's PIS. Feel free to disprove me if you can find a Maddie TP feat that isn't against Sage.

2- Understand that your saying that the telekinetic who blows up Sentinels, throw around Apocalyse, catches 100 ton objects, a stops planes and space stations from crashing.....will be overwhelmed by rocks.

3- Dude we've had this conversation....If you wanna lowball, go play with the Jean fans. You cannot win against me.

@stormcell: If you were just presenting a counter argument, there'd be no problem.....but lets not throw one showing out as the main evidence of a team winning, if it's not something that can be replicated.....especially when we both know their are characters with MULTIPLE showings that you wouldnt do the same for

And I just saw life force draining and magic were taken off the table. LOL! I was TOO eager to get in this fight since Selene is my favorite female villain that I didn't read all the rules. Oh, well, I think I argued well that her control over inanimate objects plus her TP is enough to win. On top of that, once she steps through a force-field in her shadow form, she can end Jean or Rachel with a single punch since she can lift like a ton with her superhuman strength. So, instead of her draining their life force in my earlier scenarios where she passes through their shields, substitute a super punch for that.

@koays: Look, I've already agreed that both Jean and Rachel would win against Selene in a pure TP fight. The Rachel vs. Selene scan you presented was pointless since Selene wasn't trying to use her inanimate objects, super strength, etc, against Rachel. That was a pure TP tussle which Rachel won. The argument I was making is Selene has ways of distracting Rachel and Jean to weaken their concentration for psychic warfare. That could give Selene the opening to either win a psychic fight, or, at the very least, provide her with enough time for her shadow to pass through their shields where she can deliver a super punch to take them down.

As for Maddie, she's a clone of Jean, right? There you go. That makes it plausible for her to overpower Rachel telepathically.

Also, Pryor seems more skilled than Rachel.

One more thing, I brought up that Selene seems to be able to increase the strength and durability of inanimate objects.

Regarding Jean throwing around Poccy, his power levels are too inconsistent for that to mean anything. For instance, if you take him at the levels he was at during the end of Original Five X-Factor, Jean would not be budging him with her TK. Sometimes he's presented as being this uber-powerful being, other times, he's not. I kinda recall Havok beating him once, or coming close. That just goes to show how inconsistently portrayed he can be.

Is no one going to comment on the Selene and Maddie pic? I had to magnetic lasso the fuck out of the original photo zzz

@stormcell: Life force draining is allowed. Only psi draining (jean and maddie) and magic are not allowed, focusing more on their mutant aspects

Oh, if that's the case, then that increases the odds even more of Selene's team winning since once she drains either Jean or Rachel, her powers will be amped.

@stormcell: Hey, what I said was about the way you presented the argument. Not what you said. I came back here just because I was told that drain was on and it changed the entire battle for me. I'm not averse to a Maddie Selene win....the paper work just needs to match, and right now drain is their best hard counter for telepathy and Maddie is walking on eggshells with some solid TK feats but overall needing support to force a win.

As far as Jean vs Apocalypse.....I'd agree, and I've said before that Apocalypse is a jobber. But X-Men Black (the series that lead into the Uncanny relaunch) went out of it's way to say that Apocalypse was "MORE POWERFUL THEN EVER" in his new body....so it's hard not to look at Jean throwing around 616 Apocalypse in his "strongest body" and not say it's a feat when the creative team has gone out of it's way to tell you it should be a feat. Now if Hellion throws him around tomorrow, we can go back to calling the feat shit.....but until then she beat the Egyptian Jobber at his best.

I haven't seen Poccy do anything to make me think he's more powerful than ever. He was at his most powerful at the end of the Original Five X-Factor series before Havok, Polaris, Guido, etc became the new X-Factor. I mean, here he is tanking shots from X-Factor and the Inhumans combined (including Blackbolt's voice, which I know is also inconsistent, but it is always very powerful nonetheless): https://2.bp.blogspot.com/EwJ5_-KavCl3TXEm-6bjmZr62FX1ynks5nmPvZkIl5SBWp4AtP9CwFO99PE632nIdJKY3FvrH_Pt=s1600

Notice how Poccy wasn't even being fazed by the combined assault. This is the problem with Marvel. They don't always give the characters the feats and power levels to back their claims when they state the character to wield a certain level of power. So, again, I take the Jean throwing Poccy around thing with a grain of salt since he gets jobbed a lot.

Also, with Poccy being on the new Excalibur lineup, you better believe he's not going to be written anywhere near as powerful as the scan I just presented. He's gonne be jobbed all the time.

Here is another durability feat from Poccy where he takes a hit from Thor and doesn't budge (though his suit temporarily seems to tear and heal itself): http://i.imgur.com/hG9ONvK.jpg

And here he backhanded Thor hard enough to take the head off his spine: http://i.imgur.com/0CbWN5c.jpg

And we all know that Scott can level mountains, right? Here Poccy is easily taking optic blasts to his face before effortlessly blocking it with his hand: http://i.imgur.com/Ccb4lJI.png

http://i.imgur.com/oxTPtH1.png

That statement calling Poccy the most powerful he's even been is a worthless statement to me.

What also hurts the credibility of Jean throwing Poccy is how they are writing down characters now to prop up Jean. Whatever disagreements you and I may have, we can agree that Jean would have no chance, for instance, of getting into Classic Magneto's head given his mental defenses. He defeated Phoenix Force Jean Grey, he was able to stalemate Classic Xavier with his will power alone, he was able to completely jam Jean's psi powers in Fatal Attractions with his magnetic powers, plus he has the helmet thing on top of all of this. Then, all of a sudden, Jean can get into his head without any effort whatsoever starting when Lobdell took over during part of Revolution? It's a trend that has continued till this day.

I think Poccy was jobbed here the same way Magneto has been to make Jean look good, to be honest.

The no magic piece is big. What can they do against Jean and Rachel this way?

@captfalcon725: just about nothing without magic, Nate or the Phoenix Maddie is basically a powerless human with a potential xgene that was never activated. Selene can only drain via touch and her tp is not up to par nor is her limited tk because it doesn't work on organic matter.

Jean and Rachel low key stomp. Their combined powers are too much for selene and maddie

Team 1 definitely has the advantage. The only hope for team 2 is magic which they don't have

Team 1.

I think the Greys could handle this. Though, I feel like Selene needs a new partner.

I thought Madelyne was actually close to Jean in power?

@kasya_carey: Back then maybe. But as of NOW? IMO I think Jean can take Maddie alone.

I may be wrong, but in terms of feats I think Adult Jean can do it.

Rachel massive weaklink so leaning towards team 2

What are Maddie feats now aside from the magic?

Damn I wish they would do something with Madelyne. Especially now, I want her to invade Krakoa

How is Rachel a weak link she recently oneshotted 3 ppl with the best tp defenses in marvel Storm, Magik, and Psylocke.

@kasya_carey: Honey she took all of them by surprise and she's hella inconsistent in the same book when scott was blocking her Telepathy so

Does Scott have mental blocks because of Emma and Jean?

@kasya_carey: I think so but even if he has its probably not as strong as Storm/Psylocke psi shields (Who have blocked the likes of Shadowking and Jean Grey)

@marveld2: isn’t current Rachel suppose to have tp that rivals Xavier or?

@marveld2: Jean taught Scott a technique that allows him to place thoughts into a black box that repels the thoughts of telepaths trying to read what he places in the box and

it could contain a piece of the void. Emma found it impossible to open in his mindscape.

@kasya_carey: She downloaded his experience via telepathy but doesn't have the feats to back it up.(She got her ass handed by Exodus and Cassandra Nova. Both are on Xavier's level)

@kasya_carey: If you have time maybe you can check out the Rachel vs Psylocke CaV. @koays made her RT so most of her stuff is explained here I think

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/psychics-cav-psylocke-marveld2-vs-rachel-grey-koay-2048554/

@kasya_carey: In power, she always has, but overall, no. I put her at or slightly below Emma.

Not current Jean. In fact, a teenage Jean Grey literally kicked Psylocke out of her head hard enough to make Psylocke nose-bleed and humble her for invading their minds without permission.

Meanwhile, Scott’s black box that Jean taught him has the power to reflect the telepathy of someone as powerful as Emma Frost, who is miles above Psylocke in feats and only slightly above Rachel.