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#1 Posted by Life_Without_Progress (24727 posts) - - Show Bio
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Jax (Original and 2011 Reboot Timeline,Excluding Non Canon Endings & Malibu Comics timelines))

VS

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Winston

In character

Winner by KO, Incapacitation or Death

Random encounter

Standard gear and abilities

Fight takes place at an unpopulated city setting at night

Who'd win? For what reasons?

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#3 Posted by CaoCao (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

Doomfist already gives Winston a hard figtht. Jax punches a hole in Winston his chest.

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#4 Posted by Mee09 (5765 posts) - - Show Bio

Jax will definitely win. He's on a different level and has already fought and beaten guys who have fodderized mobs of things similar to Winston before he goes into rage mode physically. Even Rage mode still won't be enough. His reactions and strength are far too much for Winston. Jax isn't Doomfist.

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#5 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

Apart from Tearing people apart, I don’t think Jax has anything on par with Busting the street like Doomfist did in his Origin trailer.

Doomfist tore the street apart in one blow, sent Cars flying, was unfazed by bullets and Genji’s shuriken/Blades (despite his sword cutting a car clean in half) but Winston suffered Zero damage from the Doomfist and even defeated him.

I don’t think any of Jax’s feats are on par with DF, so I doubt his chances against Winston, who is Superior to doomfist

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#6 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@caocao: I gotta ask which Feats puts Jax Above Doomfist?

It’s been awhile since I’ve looked into MK lore, but last I checked Only Characters like Goro or stronger can compete withDoomfist in terms of raw power and Strength.

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#7 Posted by CaoCao (1525 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@caocao: there wasn’t really anything comparable to Doomfist’s best feats in that Respect thread.

As of yet, his best attack (Ground Slam) did nowhere near as much Damage as Doomfist when he punched the street and sent cars Flying.

https://gfycat.com/newhastygermanspitz

This feat alone is superior to anything I’ve seen Jax do

https://gfycat.com/PreciousHeavenlyCollie

I have yet to see a punch From Jax send someone as large as Winston this far.

And considering he is nearly 7 feet tall (Compared to Reinhardt) and the heaviest Gorilla (6 ft) weighs 589 lbs, it’s safe to say that punching Winston off Camera (a few hundred feet away) into a Shop is further than we’ve seen Jax punch Someone.

That’s without mentioning Winston’s Bulletproof armor, Tesla Cannon, he can tank Jax’s Weapons and Guns

I can’t see Jax doing what Doomfist has done. Nor does he have much mobility in comparison.

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#9 Posted by Breaking_Brads_Void (1064 posts) - - Show Bio

@caocao said:

Doomfist already gives Winston a hard figtht. Jax punches a hole in Winston his chest.

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#10 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@caocao: not to mention That Doomfist’s Gameplay is too vastly different from his actual feats.

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#11 Posted by CaoCao (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@quetzal said:

@caocao: not to mention That Doomfist’s Gameplay is too vastly different from his actual feats.

Does he have Comicfeats? (I didn´t read the Overwatchcomics before)

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#12 Posted by DiarrheaRegatta (5310 posts) - - Show Bio

Winston stomps.

Online
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#13 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@caocao: he’s only been in one Comic, and the only feats I recall him having is punching out of his cell, which we saw him doing in the origin story.

Although one feat that isn’t in the Cinematic is the battle against the OR-15. We saw a glimpse of his battle during his Gameplay reveal.

In that battle, he killed dozens of OR-15 units and punched one into a Crater which can be found on the Numbani Map.

To get a good idea of how impressive that is, note that Orisa was an OR 15 with Various upgrades, and she can stop a Bus without moving at all or taking damage.

The OR 14s, former models, were strong enough to stop Reinhardt Mid Charge and push him back.

Here’s a picture of The OR 15 Crater

https://images.app.goo.gl/MXzcvR6eGa9S9wGD8

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#14 Posted by onilordasmodeus (3417 posts) - - Show Bio

Base Jax is MUCH stronger than base Doomfist. Jax's tech pushes him pretty far beyond his base though, as does doom fists.

Winston vs Jax?

Jax all day. Jax is a soldier through and through. Winston may have a better scientific mind than Jax, but Jax has more experience, and Jax doesn't pull his punches.

Jax would rip through Winston pretty easily if given the chance.

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#15 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@OniLordAsmodeus: alghough I agree that Base Jax is superior to Doomfist, I doubt he can compare to Doomfist with his gauntlet.

As of yet, I haven’t seen a feat comparable to Doomfist breaking the street and sending cars flying.

Alongside that, both have Greater mobility and Winston has greater durability than Jax. The only thing up for debate is strength.

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#16 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@OniLordAsmodeus: @OniLordAsmodeus: now let’s look at his showings.

For starters, we have experience. Jax was a C.O for a special Forces unit 30 years prior to MKX, before Becoming a revenant and later retiring. Based off of Cassie and Jacqui’s age, he must have been retired for 20-25 years. If MK11 takes place in 2019 (maybe, timeline not confirmed) then he’s been retired for 29 years at most. Meaning he has a minimum of 10 years in service and a Maximum Of 29 years in retirement. It could be longer or it could be shorter, there’s no confirmation so it’s a loose statement

Then there’s Winston. We know that he’s been in Overwatch during the Uprising event, but there’s no confirmation for if he was present during the Retribution event. So we know that he’s been in Overwatch 7 years prior to current day. We also know that his Friend, Hammond, is 14 years old and they both left Horizon at the same time. Meaning he couldn’t have been in Overwatch prior to 14 years. So we can at least confirm that his years of active duty are below Jax and his Fight against Doomfist must be after the Uprising because Tracer and Genji are actively present and Winston is also in active duty in current day.

With that out of the way, we can confirm that Winston has less experience and has only been shown to face less opponents than Jax.

Next up is Durability. Which goes to Winston without question. His Body armor can tank Sniper Rifles and Assault rifles with minimal damage. As a matter of fact, Assault Rifles don’t even seem to faze him at all. As a matter of fact, the only two weapons that have any major impact or Damage to him is Reaper’s Hellfire shotguns and the Doomfist.

Actually something worth mentioning is the fact that Reaper’s Shotguns aren’t standard Shotguns but have lingering side effects that makes them hard to recover from.

In the “Bastet” short story, Soldier 76 couldn’t properly heal from the shotgun shot Reaper shot in his back and Jack passed out multiple times. This would explain why Winston was knocked down and worn out whenever he was hit with them, yet despite this, he never actually suffered any injuries.

Alongside this, the Doomfist sent him flying several hundred feet away, but he was able to recover instantly and jump back into the fight with no injuries present.

Jax has no such luck. Although he can match Kintaro physically in the Malibu Comics, Kintaro still successfully broke his back, and Jax has been knocked out by Goro and knocked out By Reiko. He has no real Durability against Piercing attacks or Electricity like Winston. As a matter of fact, apart from his arms, he has no real protection against guns, bullets, or blades. He has been thrown through walls and near explosions, but has no feats comparable to how far the Doomfist sent Winston, or the Space Shuttle (Which can weigh several tons) Landing atop of Winston after Reaper knocked him down.

He also has no feats tanking electricity, making the Tesla Cannon rather threatening.

And finally: Strength

The strongest foe Jax has faced is Easily Goro in the Malibu Comics. In said Comics, he could destroy concrete Slabs and a table in one Go, crushed a Police car with two hands, was still physically superior to Jax. So if Jax can overpower Kintaro, but not Jax, then we can see him standing anywhere around 2 tons of strength.

Now let’s look at Doomfist, the strongest enemy Winston has Faced. In his Cinematic, he was able to break apart the street in one punch, the impact sent at least one car flying, and threw a car at Tracer. Most cars weigh 2 tons or Greater, and for him to send one flying with an impact of an indirect punch to the ground, this means that not only can he lift and throw 2 tons, but can also punch with a force several times greater than two tons, yet Winston can match and Defeat him with Primal rage. This puts Winston’s strength FAR higher than Jax.

So, with greater durability and strength, Winston takes this fight mid-high diff.

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#17 Posted by onilordasmodeus (3417 posts) - - Show Bio

@quetzal: I was really going back and forth on if I was going to respond, but I guess since you've gone through the difficulty of making a real argument, the least I can do is respond in kind.

Also, thanks for bringing up the Malibu Comics because I wasn't. *Clears throat*

Durability

Jax fought Kintaro, and broke through the concrete walls of a parking garage back in the Official MK2 comic, NOT the Malibu Comics.

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Back in that comic, Jax's durability was shown to be able to take the full force of one of Shang Tsungs fireballs...

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...which has been shown to destroy stone pillars (MKSM), clear platforms of MK kombatants (MKA Intro), and one-shot military helicopters with ease (MK9: Ch.2). As you can see above, Jax took that shot with no difficulty, got up, and THEN fought Kintaro where he broke through the car garage wall.

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In the Malibu Comics, however, Jax went on a Special Forces mission where he, Sonya, and the rest of there team were set up by Kano, and had a high-powered explosive set off in their faces. (I believe you referenced this.)

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Jax and the team survived and walked off the blast, but as you can see, the blase was strong enough to blow off one of the SF soldiers arms, yet Jax was unscathed and was the first one to climb out of the water.

Experience

We really don't know how old Jax is, but we know he is older than Sonya, and that he out ranks her as he is a Major in MK2, and she was a Lieutenant. In MK1 Sonya was 26, and since the MK1 tourney took place in 1992, that means she was born in 1966. By the time MKX rolls around she is 51, so Jax is at least 55 (that is a real guess, as he may even be 60).

Jax's first mission that we know of canonically takes place sometime before the first tournament (when Jax was still a Major giving orders), and even before then we know he had been active duty because he and Kano had history even at this time. A quick google search tells me that to become a major in the Army you have to have at least 10 years of experience. Add that to the fact that between MK1 and MKDA there is canonically a 10 year period, that means by the time MKDA rolled around, around the time the OIA became a thing, Jax had at least 20 years experience in the armed forces.

Now, you were using the the new time line, and in the new timeline Jax dies at the end of MK3. That means that before Jax's death, he at least had 10+ years experience in the Armed Force, then spent the next 2 or so years as a revenant commanding Quan Chi's armies, before reclaiming his humanity. Jax retires some time after returning to Earthrealm, so by that time by that time he officially has around 13 or 14 years of in-the-field combat experience. And that isn't even taking into account all the training, schooling (Jax is a talent with robotics), and everything else Jax is known for.

I think you came to this conclusion as well, that Jax in more experienced, but Jax is just on another level when you take into account his inter-realm travel, mystical training and knowledge, scientific skills, and military training/experience.

Skill

Jax is stated to be proficient in Muay Thai, Judo, and trained in the use of the Tonfa...not to mention all the guns, explosives, and everything else the military uses. But Jax also has learned to harness his "Fa Jing" (relatively equivalent to Chi) and uses the art in his martial arts. Before losing his arms / gaining his cybernetic strength, Jax used his Fa Jing to shake the ground, and could form his signature energy wave all through skill. Winston may be a well train Overwatch member, but for most of Jax's career, he's been one of Earth's greatest and strongest fighters bare-none.

Strength

I think you are right that physically the strongest enemy Jax has faced in kombat is Kintaro...who is said to be stronger than Goro. Thing is, Jax was matching Kintaro in his base form. Bottom-line, Jax was heralded as the strongest human BEFORE his cybernetic enhancements. Jax can:

  • shake the earth with a single punch,
  • deflect rocket-level attacks with a single arm, and
  • has been shown to be able to run (2 or 3 steps) and jump at least 8 feet up and 25 to 30 feet across (that is beyond Olympic levels right there).

And this is just a snap shot of the stuff he's done.

Now, you put the Doomfist street feat up against Jax, but I'd argue that Jax, rather most MK characters, don't showcase their strength in flashy AOE attacks, but rather more focused and direct attacks; a-la the Dim Mak technique.

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All the Earthrealm fighters in MK use some combination of skill, strength, magic, and technology, and Jax is no different. Where Doomfist would do well fight where his is out numbered with attacks like that, Jax excels in 1v1 fights where he can focus on one target, manipulate the fight in his way, and STRIKE with a decisive blow.

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There is DEFINITELY more I can post, and maybe later I will, but yeah, 1v1 I don't think Winston has much of a chance.

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#18 Posted by foxerdes (10260 posts) - - Show Bio

Jax. Way more skilled and has striking strength to put Winston down even though it won't be easy.

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#19 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@OniLordAsmodeus: nice response.

I admit, I never really doubted Jax’s superiority in terms of EXP and Skill, but then again, Doomfist had the same advantages and still lost.

Doomfist had Several years of EXP as a martial artist long before he even lost his arm and spent several more years as a Mercenary before even becoming Doomfist, until killing the Previous Doomfist and claiming the title. Considering he’s currently 45 years old, and he started when he was in his “youth” and the age requirements for joining fighting tournaments are 18, and he was imprisoned AFTER the uprising, then he must have around 20 years of experience before going to prison.

Before then, he learned multiple martial arts, killed the previous Doomfist, and destroyed an entire Squadron of OR 15s which are improved versions of OR 14s.

And OR 14s stopped Reinhardt’s charge, despite him being able to charge through multiple Bastions and break through stone walls.

He’s also experienced in the field of prosthetics, since he was raised into a family that was the head of a company that made Prosthetics. And he is one of the most respected higher ups of Talon.

So with comparable experience and skill to Jax, I find it a feasible comparison.

Not to mention that Doomfist is much faster than Jax and it is stated in the Overwatch site that Doomfist actually has the ability to read opponents movements and it isn’t solely predicting their movements.

Now all that remains is strength and Durability

Now you said they would be more focused on keeping the force focused on one area, instead of dealing major damage over a large area. To which it seems less feasible when speaking about Jax. His Attacks are very direct and his Ground Slam is an attack designed to cover a large area that his opponent is in, but despite this, his Grand Slam doesn’t cover or deal anywhere near as much damage as Doomfist does. Nor does any of his attacks. The walls he destroyed aren’t that thick nor do they cover as much area of damage as Doomfist, making it hard to compare. There feats just don’t equate and it makes it difficult to say he’s stronger/weaker if the force is exerted differently.

Now there’s durability

Now Jax’s Explosion feat is rather difficult to gauge how much he tanked. Since Explosions are AOE attacks, It’s hard to guarantee how much of the AOE one properly withstood. Like the damage a Grenade causes someone is nearly unpredictable, you may get blown apart, you may just suffer a concussion. It’s an awkward damage that doesn’t have a definite result.

And Shang Tsung’s fireball is an impressive feat, but is comparable to Winston getting punched off screen by the Doomfist. However, one thing that interested me is during his fight against Kintaro.

In the fight, his Spine was actually broken, yet he still was able to overpower him, before collapsing on the floor (I don’t know if he passed out or not, but he was on the floor, completely exhausted) this shows his pure tenacity and how far he’d go despite the condition he’s in, which puts him above Winston in that regard.

So it’s a very close match from what I see, but I can see this going to either of them, both are fairly even in many factors, with some advantages and disadvantages to each other.

Also Winston’s Tesla Cannon gives him an advantage in weaponry, while Most of Jax’s weapons will have very little effect. Forgot to add that.

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#20 Posted by onilordasmodeus (3417 posts) - - Show Bio

@quetzal said:

@OniLordAsmodeus: nice response.

I admit, I never really doubted Jax’s superiority in terms of EXP and Skill, but then again, Doomfist had the same advantages and still lost.

Doomfist had Several years of EXP as a martial artist long before he even lost his arm and spent several more years as a Mercenary before even becoming Doomfist, until killing the Previous Doomfist and claiming the title. Considering he’s currently 45 years old, and he started when he was in his “youth” and the age requirements for joining fighting tournaments are 18, and he was imprisoned AFTER the uprising, then he must have around 20 years of experience before going to prison.

Before then, he learned multiple martial arts, killed the previous Doomfist, and destroyed an entire Squadron of OR 15s which are improved versions of OR 14s.

And OR 14s stopped Reinhardt’s charge, despite him being able to charge through multiple Bastions and break through stone walls.

He’s also experienced in the field of prosthetics, since he was raised into a family that was the head of a company that made Prosthetics. And he is one of the most respected higher ups of Talon.

So with comparable experience and skill to Jax, I find it a feasible comparison.

Not to mention that Doomfist is much faster than Jax and it is stated in the Overwatch site that Doomfist actually has the ability to read opponents movements and it isn’t solely predicting their movements.

Yeah, DF and Jax have a lot of similarities, but while you are more inclined to pull them even in terms of skill and experience, I'd give Jax the clear advantage. The biggest difference between them in my estimation is the fact that before Jax got his prosthetics he was already "special" in that he was one of the best fighters on earth, and was recognized as such by Raiden. While DF is a higher up at Talon, Jax was a founding member of the OIA, helping run, and presumably helping develop, the portal technology, as well as some of the the cybernetic technology that was used in both the OIA and SF. This is supported by the fact that in MK Gold it was Jax who ran the project to get Cyrax back his humanity, and MKDA Sonya received orders from Jax while he was running the portal at OIA. You can see this as well in MKvDCU Jax was seen fixing the portal there (though that game is non-canon), and most recently he showed his prowess in MK9 when it was him who rewired Cyber-Sub and restored his memories.

@quetzal said:

Now all that remains is strength and Durability

Now you said they would be more focused on keeping the force focused on one area, instead of dealing major damage over a large area. To which it seems less feasible when speaking about Jax. His Attacks are very direct and his Ground Slam is an attack designed to cover a large area that his opponent is in, but despite this, his Grand Slam doesn’t cover or deal anywhere near as much damage as Doomfist does. Nor does any of his attacks. The walls he destroyed aren’t that thick nor do they cover as much area of damage as Doomfist, making it hard to compare. There feats just don’t equate and it makes it difficult to say he’s stronger/weaker if the force is exerted differently.

I agree that when comparing these 2 guys it IS hard to directly compare them, even though they have a lot in common, but I'd point to this feat for Jax for a more direct comparison to DF's street feat:

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Here you can see Jax make his opponent's legs explode just from hitting the ground. This feat isn't limited to close proximity either, since as long as the opponent is on the ground, their legs get shattered by the force of Jax's strike. But take a look at the dust-up on the ground too. I'd argue that he's hitting the ground so hard that anyone stand on the ground in his proximity would experience their legs shattering, but even if the argument is that he is directing the flow of energy to a specific location. Regardless, that is a ridiculous feat right there. Sure DF can make car's fly, but Jax can pretty much disintegrate people with the sheer reverberation of his strikes.

@quetzal said:

Now there’s durability

Now Jax’s Explosion feat is rather difficult to gauge how much he tanked. Since Explosions are AOE attacks, It’s hard to guarantee how much of the AOE one properly withstood. Like the damage a Grenade causes someone is nearly unpredictable, you may get blown apart, you may just suffer a concussion. It’s an awkward damage that doesn’t have a definite result.

And Shang Tsung’s fireball is an impressive feat, but is comparable to Winston getting punched off screen by the Doomfist. However, one thing that interested me is during his fight against Kintaro.

In the fight, his Spine was actually broken, yet he still was able to overpower him, before collapsing on the floor (I don’t know if he passed out or not, but he was on the floor, completely exhausted) this shows his pure tenacity and how far he’d go despite the condition he’s in, which puts him above Winston in that regard.

So it’s a very close match from what I see, but I can see this going to either of them, both are fairly even in many factors, with some advantages and disadvantages to each other.

Also Winston’s Tesla Cannon gives him an advantage in weaponry, while Most of Jax’s weapons will have very little effect. Forgot to add that.

In the Malibu comics there are a few "durability" feats for Jax, but not all of them are equal. In one instance he was knocked out by Goro after getting surprise attacked and hit in the head with a weighted barbell.

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In another his arms were sliced by Baraka and he lost the use of his arms.

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Then finally he was caught by Kintaro in the end of the series when he still couldn't use his arms, and Kintaro was threatening to break Jax's back.

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I wouldn't really say any of these panels are "good" durability feats other than the Goro one. I mean Goro took a steel, weighted barbell to Jax's skull (I estimate about 225lbs) and only knocked him out. Jax was incapacitated yes, but he was up and walking around the next day with just a bandage. Baraka cutting Jax I feel has no barring on this fight, and really the Kintaro feat is just a good showing of Jax's strength as he matched/exceeded the pressure put on him by Kintaro.

It's kind of crazy when you think about it, that Jax can match Kintaro's strength at base. If this was a Kintaro vs Winston debate I may go with Kintaro, but yeah, Jax with his enhancements I'd put beyond Kintaro in terms of raw strength.

Oh, and isn't Winston's Tesla Cannon a short range weapon? If so, can't Jax out range him due to his own projectiles (energy wave, missiles, ground pound), as well as secondary weaponry like RPGs, machine-guns, and grenade launchers.

And finally, we go to Jax's MK3 fatality...

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Up close, Winston doesn't really stand a chance.

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#21 Posted by nerdchore (8171 posts) - - Show Bio

Winston ragdolls.

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#22 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@OniLordAsmodeus: actually there’s something I did wrong. When Doomfist lost his arm, he lost it during the Omni Crisis. Which was 30 years ago. And he won national tournaments prior to losing his arm, before becoming a mercenary, and then killing The previous Doomfist and claiming the mantle. Meaning he spent at LEAST 22 years of exp without the Doomfist gauntlet. And the Gauntlet simply amplifies the raw strength in his right hand. That being said, he had experience as a Mercenary, as a national Tournament champions Business Man, a higher up in Talon, and a field Agent,

To put that into perspective, Reaper has over 30 years of military experience and was already a High ranking Military Officer, claimed to be one of the best soldiers in the military, before he even Joined Overwatch, Yet Akande was able to achieve the same Rank out of his own prowess and showing of skill. Doomfist is far more skilled and experience that most don’t give him Credit for.

Then comes strength. Where you bring up his Ground Slam Brutality. That feat is impressive, but the gif won’t properly play. So I can’t see if it destroys the whole leg or below the knee, but if it’s just the lower leg, then he Requires over half a ton of Force (At least) to perform. Considering the Femur (the main bone he’d have to break) requires .45 tons of force to break. Though I’d bet he’d exert around a ton of force since he isn’t directly hitting the leg, but is instead just blowing them up.

Now let’s look at Doomfist. His street attack not only covers a huge area, but He also sends a Car Flying. This Car would weigh anywhere between 2-3 tons, and to throw it without coming into contact with it, you would need to exert a force several times Greater, which would equate to at least 4 tons of force if not more. Unquestionably exerting more force regardless if it is or isn’t directed or not.

Then Durability. Most (If not all) of Jax’s Weapons and Fire arms won’t do him any good. Winston tanked Bullets from an LMG, Shotguns, and a Sniper rifle. Not to mention the Explosives Reaper used in the first Cinematic. Jax’s weapons won’t make much benefit.

So that already throws out most weapons and projectiles. Next up is Blunt Damage.

Again, getting punched severel hundred feet away into a Building is Quite impressive physically speaking.

Not as Tenacious as Jax, but durable in his own right.

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#23 Posted by greenroost (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

winston, no contest

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#24 Edited by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@OniLordAsmodeus: oh, I just discovered something.

Apparently, Winston and Doomfist are related to the upcoming archive event, meaning we might get new lore and info about them.

Considering both MK11 and the OW archives come out this month, let’s wait and see just how these effect them.

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#25 Posted by onilordasmodeus (3417 posts) - - Show Bio

@quetzal: Cool. I'm really looking forward to the story mode in order to mine for new feats. Always a good time. Lol! Did you see the new MK11 TV Spot? In that Kitana jumps into the air to meet Scorpion, cracking the concrete beneath her as she leaps. I think that is the first time we've see an MK Kharacter leap with that much power.

I hope they do a great job, and from what I've already seen, they will.

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#26 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@OniLordAsmodeus: ooh, another trailer for the archives just dropped. Oh it looks good.

Winston tossing people around, and flipped a car over. Not sure how much will show in game, but I’m interested.

Haven’t seen anything like this in Overwatch

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#27 Posted by nerdchore (8171 posts) - - Show Bio

@quetzal: winston also tanked a huge propellar object that reaper shot fell on winstonn

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#28 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdchore: that was the ship Winston used to get to earth.

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#29 Edited by Kredory (65 posts) - - Show Bio

MK11 is going to change the outcome of this fight alot, considering the fact that there are two versions of Jax with one of them serving Kronika.

Jax was able to defeat Sheeva during the events of Mortal Kombat 9 when he was going to rescue Sonya from being executed. For reference, Sheeva survived this feat unscathed.

Sheeva and Kintaro on the ship being destroyed
Sheeva and Kintaro on the ship being destroyed

Here's proof that she really had no scratch from this:

Sheeva and Kintaro survive this unscathed
Sheeva and Kintaro survive this unscathed

He even deflected Liu Kang's fireballs that are capable of oneshotting military helicopters (presumably a CH-47 Chinook since it resembles its looks) even if he fails to deflect and block them, he still takes on the fireballs and walks over to him like a badass. The best part is that it wasn't even able to burn or vaporize his skin, and Liu Kang's fireballs can scorch heat resistant kevlar armor and vaporize people into skeletons (Example 1, 2, 3)

Jax is also strong enough to restrain Cyber Sub-Zero, who is capable of ripping out heads with the spine intact which would require at least 5000 newtons or 1 million newtons of lifting strength. Even Jax himself is strong enough to decapitate people with an uppercut

Oh and Jax's Ground Pound move can also be strong enough to create large cracks in ground with his energy infused arms

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#30 Posted by Kredory (65 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh and Jax wins for my reasons, MK11 is just going to make him stronger and if there will be comics, there's going to be more feats if possible

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#31 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@kredory: you bring a lot of Good feats, but they don’t translate as easily as it seems.

For example, when it comes to that boat feat. Havik (that’s havik, right? Or is it Reiko?) blew that ship up through magic (amped with Blood Magic) however, we don’t know how much of the explosion they actually tanked, not do we know precisely where they were when the explosion occurred.

For all we know, they could have jumped off shortly after the initial attack, before the explosions went off. It might be Speculation, but it shows just how Questionable of a feat it is.

Not to mention that there’s a near 20 year time gap between the two. Where one was a physical fight, and the other was an explosion. There’s a lot of difference between the two.

Then there’s the fireball. Which is canonically unclear. Why? Because it was a QuickTime event. There’s a version where he tanked it, and a version where he didn’t. There is no determination as to which one is accurate.

And then there’s the pure strength feats. You are correct that this is an incredible showing of Strength, but even at its best, it could all be done under a ton of Force (except the ground pound, but I’ll address that later)

Winston however, has a few new feats from the Storm Rising Event. Where he flipped a Car over and Lifted the side of a Car with one arm. Both feats were done with minimal effort and didn’t seem to be too difficult for him. But The Car he flipped was an Truck/SUV, and would weigh anywhere between 4-6000 lbs. which would require a greater amount of strength than any Body breaking feat.

Which brings us to the final Feat, the Ground Pound. Now the Ground pound is a feat that Winston himself has not done, however, there is One character that not only has a similar feat, but his feat is larger and more impressive: Doomfist.

Now, In the recent event, I can confirm that Doomfist has over 24 years of experience as a national Tournament champion, a Successful Mercenary, A superior combatant to the previous Doomfist, and a Talon Higher up. However, experience isn’t the question here, but instead, Strength.

Now there isn’t any official length of the MK Arenas, but With MKX arenas having the greatest length (correct me if wrong) and that one seems to stretch to around 30 feet. It shows just how far the Ground pound can reach.

However, when we turn to Doomfist, he was able to make a Massive Crater that not only destroyed the street, but also sent cars flying. Which would again require several Tons of strength to pull off. Yet Winston beat him.

Now it’s easy to say there isn’t enough context behind their fight to determine if it’s pure strength that gave him the victory, but that’s actually exactly what is stated in the Overwatch Bio for Doomfist.

So, If Winston has Superior strength to Doomfist and he has consistent durability feats, then by all means, Winston takes this fight fairly.

Then you brought up

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#32 Posted by Jexsu (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Going with Jax, for now.

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#33 Edited by Kredory (65 posts) - - Show Bio

About the ship feat, the two Shokan (especially Sheeva) were on the boat plus they were near the beam that hit it, creating an explosion. So it would be safe to say that they tanked the attack, plus they can't be that far from the AoE since it was large enough to part some clouds, something a mini nuke can do (although this blast is weaker than a real one) plus this happened before MKX

Still, Sheeva hasn't grown signficantly stronger in between MK9 and the MKX comics even after becoming the queen of her own people after King Gorbak's death, so Sheeva was this durable in MK9.

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Now, Jax was significantly stronger after the events of MK9 and after he was resurrected by Raiden because he was proven worthy enough to guard the Kamidogu alongside Scorpion, Shujinko (although he's pretty featless) and Raiden. This would mean that he's on their level after retiring from the SF, plus this is proven when he beat Liu Kang (who beat Raiden) and Sindel (who killed all of the Earthrealm dudes and required Nightwof's suicide attack to kill her) and oneshotted a weakened Quan Chi (not impressive but just pointing this out) but it's doesn't mean that higher than Scorpion or Raiden's level. Basically this is the list of top tier dudes in MKX according to power (I might have missed some people):

  • Corrupted Shinnok (he was defeated by Cassie but that required PIS and a plot specific power boost)
  • Base Shinnok
  • Raiden=Revived Scorpion (his revenant form is weaker)=Havik (dude was strong enough to hold Shinnok's amulet without dying)
  • Liu Kang (both revenant and human)
  • Tremor (killed/incapacitated by Sonya but that's an outlier since she was hurt by an Oni Warlord who Tremor easily killed)
  • Revived Sub-Zero (his revenant form is weaker)
  • Reiko w/ Blood Magik
  • Revived Jax (his revenant form is weaker)
  • Shokan warriors (Goro, Sheeva, Kintaro)
  • And the rest of the roster

Even in the original timeline, Jax was stated to be "the strongest man on Earth" despite this being a rumor, since he was able to stand his ground against Kintaro, a Shokan warrior stated to be stronger than his predecessor, Goro. The following scans come from the canon Midway comics btw

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About the fireball feat, one thing certainly happened in his fight with Liu Kang. Liu Kang was definitely throwing fireballs at him and wanted him to die, and he needed to do something about it. It's true that there's a version where he touches it or dodges it, making it difficult to determine what really happened. However, there is a part where you have to deflect it with his arms or else you get struck by it. So Jax was definitely touching those fireballs since Quan Chi was reacting to how Jax was dealing with Liu Kang.

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#34 Posted by Kredory (65 posts) - - Show Bio

Need to fix that format

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#35 Posted by Kredory (65 posts) - - Show Bio

I also have to mention that Jade defeating Sheeva in MK9 is an absolute outlier, Jade was easily killed by a soul amped Sindel and defeated by a weaker Jax, while Sheeva has much better and consistent feats where she won a battle royale against several Shokan warriors and ultimately became the queen of the Shokan and held off multiple warriors possessed and amplified by Blood Magik. Keep in mind that Shokan troops are extremely durable since they aren't easily defeated by low tier combatants like Sonya and Reptile and require skilled opponents like Sub-Zero or Kung Lao to beat them.

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#36 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@kredory: now, you are correct in the Boat feat, as they were close enough to tank most of the attack, but the fact of the matter is, the feats still don’t translate. An Explosion feat is not too comparable to a Physical Fight.

That being said, Jax Didn’t get any stronger in that time Gap. He spent most of his time as a revenant before retiring with Raiden giving him the Kamidogu. Not to say he grew weak, but instead, he’s always been consistently that strong. Which is at a 1 toner strength (max) in the new timeline.

In the old timeline, it’s harder to quantify. As we know, he’s the strongest man, but notice, that refers to Mankind. With beings like Edenians, Shokan, and creatures like Motaro, Torr, and Shao Kahn, its hard to compare his strength to there’s. And then there’s Kintaro. Who is stated to be stronger than Goro, to which, we don’t know to what point nor do we know what form of strength he refers to.

For example, in the Malibu Comics (not included in the fight, but hear me out, Goro and Kintaro duked it our, But in the end, Goro Stated both have their own strengths to serve the emperor. This could be interpreted in many different ways. And so could that statement.

Also that panel you showed between Kintaro and Jax is from the Malibu Comics, which is not accepted in this fight. I originally thought it was, but I just reread the OP.

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#37 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@kredory: also, tag me next time. It’s been awhile since I’ve had a decent debate last this long without it going to hell. I’d rather not miss it

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#38 Edited by Kredory (65 posts) - - Show Bio

Btw the scans I gave are from the canon Midway comics which clearly references the MK2 bios

Liu Kang visiting the destroyed temple and swears revenge
Liu Kang visiting the destroyed temple and swears revenge
Also referenced here
Also referenced here

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#39 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by Kredory (65 posts) - - Show Bio

@quetzal: I did, just I accidentally removed it lol

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#41 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by Kredory (65 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#43 Posted by Quetzal (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@kredory: welp I finished the story, and I think it’s safe to say that Jax, is not as old as I originally thought.

He flat out stated that his And Sonya’s Kid is their age. Cassie also said they’re close enough in age to be siblings. This suggest that they were in their Mid 20s during MK9.

If so, then he must of had less than 12 years of Military experience before becoming a revenant. And was retired for 20 years before put into Depression from his Wife’s death. After this, he fought the likes of his younger self, where he was defeated. Which further supports the idea that after retirement and his wife’s death, he started to Get Rusty and didn’t have the same spark or power he used to.

Then we have the fireball, where he tanked a Fireball (Supposedly) and said Fireball destroyed a helicopter (I think, I couldn’t find this feat anywhere) to which, Just because he used it to destroy one thing, doesn’t mean he exerted enough force to destroy something else.

In MKX, Liu Kang shot a fireball that had a large Blast Radius which killed multiple Soldiers at once. This shows that the attack is rather versatile and hard to determine whether he used the same force against One Person.

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#44 Posted by ITACHI_IS_GAWD (469 posts) - - Show Bio

Jax