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#1 Posted by Fetts (6229 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules: 
-Morals off. 
-Random encounter. 
-Standard equipment. 
-Fight takes place in the Jundland Wastes. 
 

No Caption Provided
 vs 
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#2 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio

A fight between two of my favorite Star Wars characters. Why must you torture me? As a huge fan of both (but I can't ever admit to being nearly as knowledgeable as Silver), I'd say Maul wins. Reflexes and skill to cope with any projectiles that come his way, and eventually dish out a fate similar to what Mace Windu did to sir Jango. This environment definitely helps Jango because he can hold back Maul for a fair amount of time, but sooner or later I can see Maul blocking/dodging everything and taking a majority with a well placed strike or two.

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#3 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio

/wants to hear what Silver has to say

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#4 Posted by Decoy Elite (30159 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul, he should be able to win via blitz.

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#5 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: I agree with you. Maul's speed and lightsaber should compensate for Jango's projectiles, and although Jango can fly, which is obviously an advantage, Maul could TK him if he has the chance or possibly even jump onto and off of the rock formations to close the gap. As well, Maul could just deflect the fire back at Jango, if he needs to. Jango's assortment of weaponry with his flight could probably make it last a little while though.
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#6 Posted by Americanson (78 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Maul will beat Jango.

Me too.

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#7 Posted by Zomboid (754 posts) - - Show Bio

Definitely Darth Maul. Jango might have an advantage in flight and the landscape, but as long as Maul can get one well-done slice in, which I'm sure eventually he would, he wins.

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#8 Posted by Enemybird (5081 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul

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#9 Posted by JediXMan (42081 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul should win this. Boba, I could argue, might win. But I don't see the same happening for Jango.

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#10 Posted by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: What could Boba do differently?

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#11 Posted by JediXMan (42081 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:

@JediXMan: What could Boba do differently?

- Better equipment.
- More experience
- Better fighter
- More tactical
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#12 Posted by slimj87d (15634 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: I wish you could just thumbs up a post. But here's my thumbs up to you.

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#13 Posted by nickthedevil (14909 posts) - - Show Bio

^ thats called a "like" my friend...lol and thats Facebook.

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#14 Posted by Obtrusive (1814 posts) - - Show Bio

I just want a "I second that" button. It would be better than facebook. No someone is going to have to do comic vine vs facebook and see what happens

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#15 Posted by Owie (7102 posts) - - Show Bio

I tend to agree that Maul should win, but what do you Star Wars folks think about the fact that Jango basically stalemated/beat Kenobi in Attack of the Clones? Jango had a degree of surprise on his side, since Kenobi didn't know what he was dealing with, while Jango was familair with what a Jedi can do. And Jango was also supported by young Boba, shooting blasts from his ship. But overall Obi-Wan (who is more powerful in AOTC than he was when he beat Maul in Phantom Menace, which bodes poorly for Maul if he was in the same situation against Jango) didn't do all that well against Jango. And while Jango didn't decisively beat him, he did basically deflect all Obi-Wan's attacks and BFR him off the edge of the tower. So I'd say Jango basically had the upper hand at the end.

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#16 Posted by nickthedevil (14909 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Owie, in this fight, theres no Boba to help in a ship, and Maul, unlike Obi-wann, is out to kill. obi wann needed to interrogate Jango. Interrogation is the last thing Maul wants to do in this instance.

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#17 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie said:

(who is more powerful in AOTC than he was when he beat Maul in Phantom Menace, which bodes poorly for Maul if he was in the same situation against Jango)

Let's stop perpetuating this misconception that Obi-Wan beat Maul. Obi-Wan lost to Maul; he only killed him when Maul grew overconfident and was susceptible to a surprise tactic. With respects to Obi-Wan being more powerful in AotC in than in TPM, he never employed any offensive Force powers when he fought Jango; so that point is rather moot. Additionally, this is just ABC logic. Maul fights and acts differently in battle than Obi-Wan.
 
@Owie said:

I tend to agree that Maul should win, but what do you Star Wars folks think about the fact that Jango basically stalemated/beat Kenobi in Attack of the Clones? Jango had a degree of surprise on his side, since Kenobi didn't know what he was dealing with, while Jango was familair with what a Jedi can do. And Jango was also supported by young Boba, shooting blasts from his ship. But overall Obi-Wan (who is more powerful in AOTC than he was when he beat Maul in Phantom Menace, which bodes poorly for Maul if he was in the same situation against Jango) didn't do all that well against Jango. And while Jango didn't decisively beat him, he did basically deflect all Obi-Wan's attacks and BFR him off the edge of the tower. So I'd say Jango basically had the upper hand at the end.

Jango did not have the upper hand, nor did he stalemate Obi-Wan. And this is granting all of the stipulations that favored Jango. When Obi-Wan first arrived, Jango fired at him, flew away, and hid behind a pillar. He fired his missile, and Boba fired turbolaser shots from the Slave I. This disarmed Obi-Wan. Then Jango came in and fought Obi-Wan in close quarter. Obi-Wan actually had the upper hand in this encounter at certain points, but Jango's armor provided him the needed protection. And he managed to tie Obi-Wan's hands when Kenobi attempted to retrieve his lightsaber. Pertaining to BFR, Obi-Wan was the one who BFR'd Jango, not the other way around. He kicked Jango off the landing platform, but because they were tied together, Obi-Wan fell too, which basically constituted poor planning on Obi-Wan's part. Then Jango released the line, and Obi-Wan fell. Having help from Boba in the Slave I, a distraction allowing Obi-Wan's hands to be tied, Jango's armor defending him from standard melee strikes, and Obi-Wan making a combative error hardly translates to this fight. The circumstances benefiting Jango are lacking here, and Maul has the tools to defeat him.
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#18 Posted by Owie (7102 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Owie said:

(who is more powerful in AOTC than he was when he beat Maul in Phantom Menace, which bodes poorly for Maul if he was in the same situation against Jango)

Let's stop perpetuating this misconception that Obi-Wan beat Maul. Obi-Wan lost to Maul; he only killed him when Maul grew overconfident and was susceptible to a surprise tactic. With respects to Obi-Wan being more powerful in AotC in than in TPM, he never employed any offensive Force powers when he fought Jango; so that point is rather moot. Additionally, this is just ABC logic. Maul fights and acts differently in battle than Obi-Wan.

@Owie said:

I tend to agree that Maul should win, but what do you Star Wars folks think about the fact that Jango basically stalemated/beat Kenobi in Attack of the Clones? Jango had a degree of surprise on his side, since Kenobi didn't know what he was dealing with, while Jango was familair with what a Jedi can do. And Jango was also supported by young Boba, shooting blasts from his ship. But overall Obi-Wan (who is more powerful in AOTC than he was when he beat Maul in Phantom Menace, which bodes poorly for Maul if he was in the same situation against Jango) didn't do all that well against Jango. And while Jango didn't decisively beat him, he did basically deflect all Obi-Wan's attacks and BFR him off the edge of the tower. So I'd say Jango basically had the upper hand at the end.

Jango did not have the upper hand, nor did he stalemate Obi-Wan. And this is granting all of the stipulations that favored Jango. When Obi-Wan first arrived, Jango fired at him, flew away, and hid behind a pillar. He fired his missile, and Boba fired turbolaser shots from the Slave I. This disarmed Obi-Wan. Then Jango came in and fought Obi-Wan in close quarter. Obi-Wan actually had the upper hand in this encounter at certain points, but Jango's armor provided him the needed protection. And he managed to tie Obi-Wan's hands when Kenobi attempted to retrieve his lightsaber. Pertaining to BFR, Obi-Wan was the one who BFR'd Jango, not the other way around. He kicked Jango off the landing platform, but because they were tied together, Obi-Wan fell too, which basically constituted poor planning on Obi-Wan's part. Then Jango released the line, and Obi-Wan fell. Having help from Boba in the Slave I, a distraction allowing Obi-Wan's hands to be tied, Jango's armor defending him from standard melee strikes, and Obi-Wan making a combative error hardly translates to this fight. The circumstances benefiting Jango are lacking here, and Maul has the tools to defeat him.

I'm going to disagree on a few points here. First, Obi-Wan beat Maul, he cut him in half. That's really all there is to that. Now, you can say that Maul showed a higher degree of light saber skill and Force abilities--that's fine. But the tendency to be overconfident is part of one's character (a tendency that Maul showed pretty consistently through his body language and expressions, even going so far as to repeatedly slash his light saber against the top of the pit Obi-Wan was in, for no reason other than to taunt him), and one's character is part of one's total ability as a fighter. As a martial artist myself, I know that I can beat plenty of people with greater skills than myself because of my own discipline/their own overconfidence, or any number of other character-based asymmetries. (And of course I can lose to people for the same reason too.) So I don't care if it was overconfidence that led to Maul losing or not--he still lost pretty dramatically. He lost because overconfidence was part of his overall identity as a warrior.

Also, I'm not just saying that Obi-Wan was more powerful in the Force by AotC, I'm saying he was an overall better warrior--he must have been, we're talking about several years later, and having gone from being an apprentice to being a master during that while time. In terms of "ABC logic," I'm not claiming 100% accuracy in the match between Clone-era Kenobi's overall fighting abilities and Phanton-era Maul's overall fighting abilities, but I think there's enough of one to at least bring up the point and see where it leads.

I agree with your description of the Kenobi/Jango fight up to the point where he ties Obi-Wan's hands. I would describe the contest up to that point as one where they constantly switched who had the upper hand. Once Obi-Wan's hands were tied, he kicked him off, attempting to BFR him, but it didn't work, and in the end, it was Obi-Wan who was BFRed when he was knocked all the way off and Jango let the cable loose. So while you can say that "Obi-Wan was the one who BFR'd Jango, not the other way around," that's true in a very temporary sense, but clearly Obi-Wan was the one who was truly and actually removed from the battlefield, to the degree that he fell hundreds of feet and had to get back in through another door and presumably take an elevator back up to the landing pad, by which time Jango was flying away.

Now, I tend to agree that the actual circumstances in the Kenobi/Jango fight are mostly missing here in this battle thread, especially the supporting artillery from Slave I, as I said when I first brought this whole thing up. But my larger point was that while Jango was dispatched rather quickly by Windu, he lasted pretty long against Kenobi. He may have had other circumstances in his favor, but Jango still did OK. And some of those circumstances are still in his favor. This is a random encounter, so Maul will be just as surprised by Jango's weaponry as Kenobi was. His armor will still be somewhat protective against basic melee attacks (although not totally as seen in his easy beheading). And Maul--as explicitly seen in his death at Kenobi's hands due to overconfidence--is also quite capable of making combat errors.

Personally, I think Darth Maul can take Jango. But I'm saying that Kenobi's fight against Jango adds a little texture how it might go down, and that it might not be as easy as it seems like it ought to be.

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#19 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie said: 

I'm going to disagree on a few points here. First, Obi-Wan beat Maul, he cut him in half. That's really all there is to that. Now, you can say that Maul showed a higher degree of light saber skill and Force abilities--that's fine. But the tendency to be overconfident is part of one's character (a tendency that Maul showed pretty consistently through his body language and expressions, even going so far as to repeatedly slash his light saber against the top of the pit Obi-Wan was in, for no reason other than to taunt him), and one's character is part of one's total ability as a fighter. As a martial artist myself, I know that I can beat plenty of people with greater skills than myself because of my own discipline/their own overconfidence, or any number of other character-based asymmetries. (And of course I can lose to people for the same reason too.) So I don't care if it was overconfidence that led to Maul losing or not--he still lost pretty dramatically. He lost because overconfidence was part of his overall identity as a warrior.

And how do you suppose the situation would have been different if Qui-Gon had no part in the match? Obi-Wan would have been without a lightsaber hanging over a shaft with no means of striking back against Maul. Now, since you want to compare this to how Jango would fight Maul, let's compare. Jango and Maul are fighting on Tatooine in the Jundland Wastes. The area is a desert climate with jagged rock formations spread throughout. Suppose that Maul called on the Force to hurl Jango down a chasm. Would an equivalent series of events transpire? Obviously not, because Jango lacks the ability to jump superhuman distances, cannot telekinetically call a weapon to himself, has no lightsaber in the area to exploit, and can simply fly anyway. And if Maul had previously disabled Jango's backpack when he pushed him off the cliff edge, then Jango loses. He is not capable of simply bringing himself back out in the superhumanly fast manner that Obi-Wan did. Furthermore, Obi-Wan has a Force aura that provides moderate protection from basic Force powers. Because of that, if Maul attempted to telekinetically shove Obi-Wan down the shaft face he hung onto, he might have failed, as Obi-Wan's Force aura would blunt the effects. Jango is intrinsically without any such dividends. If Maul wanted to simply toss him off the cliff face, he could. Furthermore, Maul will not be nearly as elated in killing a bounty hunter as he would be fighting and killing a Jedi, and bearing that in mind, I sincerely doubt his overconfidence, which was portrayed to be related to his enjoyment of standing over a seemingly helpless Jedi, would interfere with him under this scenario. Maul has no personal resentment or vendetta toward Jango, while he does toward any and all Jedi. He would not be treating Jango as he did Obi-Wan and for that matter, Maul has fought a bounty hunter before. In that encounter, he underestimated her because she was not a Force sensitive. The confrontation was brief, all that really occurred being her firing blaster bolts at him, Maul deflecting them, her firing a missile, and Maul escaping the area at superhuman speed to avoid the blast, causing her to be killed by the explosion. Afterwards, in his own musings, he specifically made note of his own mistake of regarding her as less of an opponent due to her status as non-Force sensitive and decided then and there not to underestimate a foe on account of their lacking Force sensitivity. All that being said, Maul would not become overconfident against Jango, because he already had a prior scenario where he was overconfident and chose not to make that mistake again and because Jango is not a Jedi and therefore will not receive a treatment from Maul similar to that a Jedi would receive from him. And even if he did become overconfident, it would not cost him the fight in the fashion it did against Obi-Wan because Jango has no way to replicate what happened. Your point carries no water. It falls on an A>B>C logic that inherently does not logically follow and is not translatable from the circumstances with Obi-Wan. 
 

Also, I'm not just saying that Obi-Wan was more powerful in the Force by AotC, I'm saying he was an overall better warrior--he must have been, we're talking about several years later, and having gone from being an apprentice to being a master during that while time. In terms of "ABC logic," I'm not claiming 100% accuracy in the match between Clone-era Kenobi's overall fighting abilities and Phanton-era Maul's overall fighting abilities, but I think there's enough of one to at least bring up the point and see where it leads.

Assuming that Obi-Wan was a superior warrior, why does this matter? He lost his lightsaber and had to resort to unarmed fighting skills. In that area, Obi-Wan is inferior to Maul. Maul is a master of several martial arts forms, including teras kasi. He was a better fighter than and defeated Anoon Bondara, who was both one of the Jedi Order's best duelists and a master of the teras kasi fighting style. 

Behind her and slightly to one side was her mentor, Anoon Bondara. Master Bondara epitomized what Darsha hoped to become one day. The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none.

The Jedi was obviously a master of the teras kasi fighting arts, as well, judging by the smooth way he parried and counterattacked. Still, within the first few moments of the engagement, Darth Maul knew that he himself was the superior fighter. He could tell that the Jedi knew it, too, but Maul also knew that it didn't matter.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter 
 
Palpatine recorded in the Telos Holocron that he trained Maul in several martial arts forms.

"I took inspiration from the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating Force-sensitive infants when I selected one apprentice, whom I named Darth Maul. I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force  
 
You are also overlooking that Obi-Wan had substantial difficulty actually hurting Jango with unarmed blows because of the latter's armor, not to mention the fact that his hands were tied. And this derails into the idea that Maul would be disarmed, but without Boba providing back up, Maul would not be in that disadvantageous state. Maul will be bent on a kill as well, whereas Obi-Wan's assignment was to capture and interrogate Jango. Their lightsaber forms are also of consequence, Obi-Wan being a Soresu master and Maul being a Juyo master. Kenobi's form is defensive; Maul's is designed to be relentlessly aggressive. He fights by attacking his enemy until they lose. Jango will not have the assistance of an opponent whose initial response in a combat situation is to adopt a defensive stance. He will be fighting an enemy who just wants to kill him and has a lightsaber style developed especially for that. 
 

I agree with your description of the Kenobi/Jango fight up to the point where he ties Obi-Wan's hands. I would describe the contest up to that point as one where they constantly switched who had the upper hand. Once Obi-Wan's hands were tied, he kicked him off, attempting to BFR him, but it didn't work, and in the end, it was Obi-Wan who was BFRed when he was knocked all the way off and Jango let the cable loose. So while you can say that "Obi-Wan was the one who BFR'd Jango, not the other way around," that's true in a very temporary sense, but clearly Obi-Wan was the one who was truly and actually removed from the battlefield, to the degree that he fell hundreds of feet and had to get back in through another door and presumably take an elevator back up to the landing pad, by which time Jango was flying away.

Now, I tend to agree that the actual circumstances in the Kenobi/Jango fight are mostly missing here in this battle thread, especially the supporting artillery from Slave I, as I said when I first brought this whole thing up. But my larger point was that while Jango was dispatched rather quickly by Windu, he lasted pretty long against Kenobi. He may have had other circumstances in his favor, but Jango still did OK. And some of those circumstances are still in his favor. This is a random encounter, so Maul will be just as surprised by Jango's weaponry as Kenobi was. His armor will still be somewhat protective against basic melee attacks (although not totally as seen in his easy beheading). And Maul--as explicitly seen in his death at Kenobi's hands due to overconfidence--is also quite capable of making combat errors.

Personally, I think Darth Maul can take Jango. But I'm saying that Kenobi's fight against Jango adds a little texture how it might go down, and that it might not be as easy as it seems like it ought to be.

It adds nothing. One lightsaber stroke can end this fight, and Obi-Wan's fight with Jango is not in any way comparable to this setup, especially when you consider this: 

Jango Fett slumped back in his seat and breathed a sigh of relief, his expression softening almost immediately. "Well, that was a bit too close," he said with a laugh.
"You smashed him good," Boba replied, his excitement beginning to bubble up again. "He never had a chance against you, Dad!"
Jango smiled and nodded. "To tell the truth, Son, he had me in real trouble there," he admitted. "After he dodged that explosive pack, I'd about run out of tricks."
Boba frowned at first, wanting to argue against anyone ever getting the upper hand on his father, but then, as he considered the moment Jango had mentioned, his frown became a wide smile. "I got him good with the laser cannon!"
"You did great," Jango replied. "You fired at just the right time, and were right there, ready to help me in when it was time for us to go. You're learning well, Boba. Better than I ever believed possible."

--Taken from Attack of the Clones 
 
Jango is here admitting that were it not for Boba firing the turbolasers on the Slave I, which disarmed Obi-Wan, he might not have fared so well. Obi-Wan becoming disarmed, which was hugely beneficial to Jango, by a person not included in this battle thread weakens your point. The same circumstance would not happen to Maul if he fought Jango.
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#20 Posted by Owie (7102 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Owie said:

I'm going to disagree on a few points here. First, Obi-Wan beat Maul, he cut him in half. That's really all there is to that. Now, you can say that Maul showed a higher degree of light saber skill and Force abilities--that's fine. But the tendency to be overconfident is part of one's character (a tendency that Maul showed pretty consistently through his body language and expressions, even going so far as to repeatedly slash his light saber against the top of the pit Obi-Wan was in, for no reason other than to taunt him), and one's character is part of one's total ability as a fighter. As a martial artist myself, I know that I can beat plenty of people with greater skills than myself because of my own discipline/their own overconfidence, or any number of other character-based asymmetries. (And of course I can lose to people for the same reason too.) So I don't care if it was overconfidence that led to Maul losing or not--he still lost pretty dramatically. He lost because overconfidence was part of his overall identity as a warrior.

And how do you suppose the situation would have been different if Qui-Gon had no part in the match? Obi-Wan would have been without a lightsaber hanging over a shaft with no means of striking back against Maul. Now, since you want to compare this to how Jango would fight Maul, let's compare. Jango and Maul are fighting on Tatooine in the Jundland Wastes. The area is a desert climate with jagged rock formations spread throughout. Suppose that Maul called on the Force to hurl Jango down a chasm. Would an equivalent series of events transpire? Obviously not, because Jango lacks the ability to jump superhuman distances, cannot telekinetically call a weapon to himself, has no lightsaber in the area to exploit, and can simply fly anyway. And if Maul had previously disabled Jango's backpack when he pushed him off the cliff edge, then Jango loses. He is not capable of simply bringing himself back out in the superhumanly fast manner that Obi-Wan did. Furthermore, Obi-Wan has a Force aura that provides moderate protection from basic Force powers. Because of that, if Maul attempted to telekinetically shove Obi-Wan down the shaft face he hung onto, he might have failed, as Obi-Wan's Force aura would blunt the effects. Jango is intrinsically without any such dividends. If Maul wanted to simply toss him off the cliff face, he could. Furthermore, Maul will not be nearly as elated in killing a bounty hunter as he would be fighting and killing a Jedi, and bearing that in mind, I sincerely doubt his overconfidence, which was portrayed to be related to his enjoyment of standing over a seemingly helpless Jedi, would interfere with him under this scenario. Maul has no personal resentment or vendetta toward Jango, while he does toward any and all Jedi. He would not be treating Jango as he did Obi-Wan and for that matter, Maul has fought a bounty hunter before. In that encounter, he underestimated her because she was not a Force sensitive. The confrontation was brief, all that really occurred being her firing blaster bolts at him, Maul deflecting them, her firing a missile, and Maul escaping the area at superhuman speed to avoid the blast, causing her to be killed by the explosion. Afterwards, in his own musings, he specifically made note of his own mistake of regarding her as less of an opponent due to her status as non-Force sensitive and decided then and there not to underestimate a foe on account of their lacking Force sensitivity. All that being said, Maul would not become overconfident against Jango, because he already had a prior scenario where he was overconfident and chose not to make that mistake again and because Jango is not a Jedi and therefore will not receive a treatment from Maul similar to that a Jedi would receive from him. And even if he did become overconfident, it would not cost him the fight in the fashion it did against Obi-Wan because Jango has no way to replicate what happened. Your point carries no water. It falls on an A>B>C logic that inherently does not logically follow and is not translatable from the circumstances with Obi-Wan.

Also, I'm not just saying that Obi-Wan was more powerful in the Force by AotC, I'm saying he was an overall better warrior--he must have been, we're talking about several years later, and having gone from being an apprentice to being a master during that while time. In terms of "ABC logic," I'm not claiming 100% accuracy in the match between Clone-era Kenobi's overall fighting abilities and Phanton-era Maul's overall fighting abilities, but I think there's enough of one to at least bring up the point and see where it leads.

Assuming that Obi-Wan was a superior warrior, why does this matter? He lost his lightsaber and had to resort to unarmed fighting skills. In that area, Obi-Wan is inferior to Maul. Maul is a master of several martial arts forms, including teras kasi. He was a better fighter than and defeated Anoon Bondara, who was both one of the Jedi Order's best duelists and a master of the teras kasi fighting style.

Behind her and slightly to one side was her mentor, Anoon Bondara. Master Bondara epitomized what Darsha hoped to become one day. The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none.

The Jedi was obviously a master of the teras kasi fighting arts, as well, judging by the smooth way he parried and counterattacked. Still, within the first few moments of the engagement, Darth Maul knew that he himself was the superior fighter. He could tell that the Jedi knew it, too, but Maul also knew that it didn't matter.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Palpatine recorded in the Telos Holocron that he trained Maul in several martial arts forms.

"I took inspiration from the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating Force-sensitive infants when I selected one apprentice, whom I named Darth Maul. I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

You are also overlooking that Obi-Wan had substantial difficulty actually hurting Jango with unarmed blows because of the latter's armor, not to mention the fact that his hands were tied. And this derails into the idea that Maul would be disarmed, but without Boba providing back up, Maul would not be in that disadvantageous state. Maul will be bent on a kill as well, whereas Obi-Wan's assignment was to capture and interrogate Jango. Their lightsaber forms are also of consequence, Obi-Wan being a Soresu master and Maul being a Juyo master. Kenobi's form is defensive; Maul's is designed to be relentlessly aggressive. He fights by attacking his enemy until they lose. Jango will not have the assistance of an opponent whose initial response in a combat situation is to adopt a defensive stance. He will be fighting an enemy who just wants to kill him and has a lightsaber style developed especially for that.

I agree with your description of the Kenobi/Jango fight up to the point where he ties Obi-Wan's hands. I would describe the contest up to that point as one where they constantly switched who had the upper hand. Once Obi-Wan's hands were tied, he kicked him off, attempting to BFR him, but it didn't work, and in the end, it was Obi-Wan who was BFRed when he was knocked all the way off and Jango let the cable loose. So while you can say that "Obi-Wan was the one who BFR'd Jango, not the other way around," that's true in a very temporary sense, but clearly Obi-Wan was the one who was truly and actually removed from the battlefield, to the degree that he fell hundreds of feet and had to get back in through another door and presumably take an elevator back up to the landing pad, by which time Jango was flying away.

Now, I tend to agree that the actual circumstances in the Kenobi/Jango fight are mostly missing here in this battle thread, especially the supporting artillery from Slave I, as I said when I first brought this whole thing up. But my larger point was that while Jango was dispatched rather quickly by Windu, he lasted pretty long against Kenobi. He may have had other circumstances in his favor, but Jango still did OK. And some of those circumstances are still in his favor. This is a random encounter, so Maul will be just as surprised by Jango's weaponry as Kenobi was. His armor will still be somewhat protective against basic melee attacks (although not totally as seen in his easy beheading). And Maul--as explicitly seen in his death at Kenobi's hands due to overconfidence--is also quite capable of making combat errors.

Personally, I think Darth Maul can take Jango. But I'm saying that Kenobi's fight against Jango adds a little texture how it might go down, and that it might not be as easy as it seems like it ought to be.

It adds nothing. One lightsaber stroke can end this fight, and Obi-Wan's fight with Jango is not in any way comparable to this setup, especially when you consider this:

Jango Fett slumped back in his seat and breathed a sigh of relief, his expression softening almost immediately. "Well, that was a bit too close," he said with a laugh.
"You smashed him good," Boba replied, his excitement beginning to bubble up again. "He never had a chance against you, Dad!"
Jango smiled and nodded. "To tell the truth, Son, he had me in real trouble there," he admitted. "After he dodged that explosive pack, I'd about run out of tricks."
Boba frowned at first, wanting to argue against anyone ever getting the upper hand on his father, but then, as he considered the moment Jango had mentioned, his frown became a wide smile. "I got him good with the laser cannon!"
"You did great," Jango replied. "You fired at just the right time, and were right there, ready to help me in when it was time for us to go. You're learning well, Boba. Better than I ever believed possible."

--Taken from Attack of the Clones

Jango is here admitting that were it not for Boba firing the turbolasers on the Slave I, which disarmed Obi-Wan, he might not have fared so well. Obi-Wan becoming disarmed, which was hugely beneficial to Jango, by a person not included in this battle thread weakens your point. The same circumstance would not happen to Maul if he fought Jango.

Look, I don't want to derail this thread by making it all about Obi-Wan. From the very start I said there are some things that are the same about the Obi-Wan/Jango battle, and other things that are different. I understand perfectly all the differences you are saying about their forms, etc., and agree. But are you seriously trying to say that there is nothing similar about the two situations? I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

If nothing else, the Clones movie gives us an example of how Jango fights in two situations. He does reasonably well against Obi-Wan. Then he fares far more poorly against Windu. Of course, both fights had very different contexts, the fighters had different styles, different motives, etc. We can take all this into account and extrapolate some worthwhile understanding of his fighting abilities from these extremes, which we can then apply to other situations. I'm not trying to make a perfect mathematical transitive relationship between fights A, B and C. But I do think that we can take A and B into account when thinking about C.

It is a worthwhile bit of added context from the novel you added at the end though.

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#21 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie said: 

Look, I don't want to derail this thread by making it all about Obi-Wan. From the very start I said there are some things that are the same about the Obi-Wan/Jango battle, and other things that are different. I understand perfectly all the differences you are saying about their forms, etc., and agree. But are you seriously trying to say that there is nothing similar about the two situations? I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Honestly, no. The differences outweigh the similarities to the extent that whatever comparison could be drawn doesn't matter. 
 

If nothing else, the Clones movie gives us an example of how Jango fights in two situations. He does reasonably well against Obi-Wan. Then he fares far more poorly against Windu. Of course, both fights had very different contexts, the fighters had different styles, different motives, etc. We can take all this into account and extrapolate some worthwhile understanding of his fighting abilities from these extremes, which we can then apply to other situations. I'm not trying to make a perfect mathematical transitive relationship between fights A, B and C. But I do think that we can take A and B into account when thinking about C.

The problem is that the circumstances are again too different. Against Obi-Wan, Jango had many favorable situational factors, such as Obi-Wan preferring to initially defend rather than attack, Boba intervening, Obi-Wan becoming distracted while reaching through the Force for his lightsaber which gave an opportunity for Jango to constrict his hands together, Jango's armor shielding him from blunt force trauma, and Obi-Wan making a mistake. Whereas with Mace, the reek rammed into Jango, which wrecked his jetpack, and as a result, Jango's mobility was hindered. This afforded Mace the chance to simply rush in and kill him. If Obi-Wan or Maul had fought Jango after he had been trampled by a reek and they were both armed with their lightsabers just as Mace was, they would beat Jango just as easily. The circumstances put these fights at antithetical extremes; this fight with Maul rests between them. The battle is arranged so that both have their standard equipment, are willing to do what they have to do to win, and are alone in an open environment. There are no outside interferences to change the outcome (like Boba or the reek). A straight out battle where both are in capable condition is not comparable to fights where there were a myriad of issues that affected the results. This is just Maul vs Jango. Jango could probably keep Maul occupied temporarily with his assortment of weaponry, but given Maul's speed, his ability to deflect any blaster fire Jango sends toward him (plausibly back at Jango), and Maul's Force skills (TK in particular), he can win this after only a moderate struggle.
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#22 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Bravo, sir.

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#23 Posted by Owie (7102 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

The problem is that the circumstances are again too different. Against Obi-Wan, Jango had many favorable situational factors, such as Obi-Wan preferring to initially defend rather than attack, Boba intervening, Obi-Wan becoming distracted while reaching through the Force for his lightsaber which gave an opportunity for Jango to constrict his hands together, Jango's armor shielding him from blunt force trauma, and Obi-Wan making a mistake. Whereas with Mace, the reek rammed into Jango, which wrecked his jetpack, and as a result, Jango's mobility was hindered. This afforded Mace the chance to simply rush in and kill him. If Obi-Wan or Maul had fought Jango after he had been trampled by a reek and they were both armed with their lightsabers just as Mace was, they would beat Jango just as easily. The circumstances put these fights at antithetical extremes; this fight with Maul rests between them. The battle is arranged so that both have their standard equipment, are willing to do what they have to do to win, and are alone in an open environment. There are no outside interferences to change the outcome (like Boba or the reek). A straight out battle where both are in capable condition is not comparable to fights where there were a myriad of issues that affected the results. This is just Maul vs Jango. Jango could probably keep Maul occupied temporarily with his assortment of weaponry, but given Maul's speed, his ability to deflect any blaster fire Jango sends toward him (plausibly back at Jango), and Maul's Force skills (TK in particular), he can win this after only a moderate struggle.

I think that (bold) is to a degree what I was trying to say. Under certain circumstances that are favorable to him, Jango can do OK against a Jedi. Under certain other circumstances that are not favorable to him, Jango can lose very quickly to a Jedi. The reason I was trying to bring these up was to show that perhaps this fight, as you say, would be in the middle of those. So they don't directly deal with the details of this fight, but place broad parameters on its extreme possibilities.

As an aside, I think this last argument/description of yours did the best at drawing out the details of the differences between the fights.

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#24 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie said:

@Silver2467 said:

The problem is that the circumstances are again too different. Against Obi-Wan, Jango had many favorable situational factors, such as Obi-Wan preferring to initially defend rather than attack, Boba intervening, Obi-Wan becoming distracted while reaching through the Force for his lightsaber which gave an opportunity for Jango to constrict his hands together, Jango's armor shielding him from blunt force trauma, and Obi-Wan making a mistake. Whereas with Mace, the reek rammed into Jango, which wrecked his jetpack, and as a result, Jango's mobility was hindered. This afforded Mace the chance to simply rush in and kill him. If Obi-Wan or Maul had fought Jango after he had been trampled by a reek and they were both armed with their lightsabers just as Mace was, they would beat Jango just as easily. The circumstances put these fights at antithetical extremes; this fight with Maul rests between them. The battle is arranged so that both have their standard equipment, are willing to do what they have to do to win, and are alone in an open environment. There are no outside interferences to change the outcome (like Boba or the reek). A straight out battle where both are in capable condition is not comparable to fights where there were a myriad of issues that affected the results. This is just Maul vs Jango. Jango could probably keep Maul occupied temporarily with his assortment of weaponry, but given Maul's speed, his ability to deflect any blaster fire Jango sends toward him (plausibly back at Jango), and Maul's Force skills (TK in particular), he can win this after only a moderate struggle.

I think that (bold) is to a degree what I was trying to say. Under certain circumstances that are favorable to him, Jango can do OK against a Jedi. Under certain other circumstances that are not favorable to him, Jango can lose very quickly to a Jedi. The reason I was trying to bring these up was to show that perhaps this fight, as you say, would be in the middle of those. So they don't directly deal with the details of this fight, but place broad parameters on its extreme possibilities.

As an aside, I think this last argument/description of yours did the best at drawing out the details of the differences between the fights.

Fair enough. 
 
Good discussion.
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#25 Posted by Fetts (6229 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie said:

Jango can do OK against a Jedi

Jango killed 20 Jedi with his bare hands. (@Silver2467: it was 20 Jedi yes? I only rented the comic. I don't own it so I could be off with the number.) Though I recall Jango was bloodlusted so I'm not sure how many he could kill with his bare hands without bloodlust. But it's still undoubtedly impressive. It all depends on the skill level of the Jedi.
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#26 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Fetts: I think, but none of those Jedi were shown to be anywhere near the power and skill level of Maul. Based on Jango's comments about his encounter with Obi-Wan, who is in Maul's caliber, he would not handle himself nearly as well against him.
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#27 Posted by krilling (2497 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul.

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#28 Posted by Fetts (6229 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: Oh I know. But he said OK against a Jedi when he has in fact, beaten a lot of them. 
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#29 Posted by SincereAgape (73 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul kills Jango

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#30 Posted by Mije_101 (1531 posts) - - Show Bio

Yup.

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#31 Posted by Life_Without_Progress (23399 posts) - - Show Bio

Horny Red Head wins.

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#32 Posted by SinnTek1 (2314 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Owie, in this fight, theres no Boba to help in a ship, and Maul, unlike Obi-wann, is out to kill. obi wann needed to interrogate Jango. Interrogation is the last thing Maul wants to do in this instance.

This.

Maul would roflstomp this match-up.

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#33 Posted by SincereAgape (73 posts) - - Show Bio

On second thought. This battle is a lot closer then I originally thought. Maul is a tad bit overrated in terms or power level. He has lost to numerous opponents (Kenobi, Darth Sidious, GG). I use the battle vs Pre Vizsla as a reference point from The Clone Wars. It was an excellent fight that Maul was able to pull off with minimal use of the force. Jango Fett is stronger then Pre Vizsla, thus has a chance of beating Maul in a fight. I think this fight is a push.

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#34 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Jango's utterly outclassed here.

He has lost to numerous opponents (Kenobi, Darth Sidious, GG).

When has Maul lost to Grievous or Obi-Wan? And losing to Sidious is hardly shameful when virtually every character in the mythos would suffer such a loss. Palpatine would slaughter Jango so badly that he creates a wound in the Force.

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#35 Posted by Hungry_Sharky (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@JediXMan: What could Boba do differently?

- Better equipment.

- More experience

- Better fighter

- More tactical

Yeah but he is still slower than Darth Maul and he is still just as vulnerable to a TK crush as his father is.

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#36 Posted by Hungry_Sharky (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Maul lost to Obi-Wan is Phantom Menace. And Obi-Wan seemed to be the better duelist in TCW as well, iirc.

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#37 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul lost to Obi-Wan is Phantom Menace.

No, he lost when Obi-Wan cheap-shotted him through PIS. Prior to that, Maul was beating both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together, and even an enraged Obi-Wan couldn't beat him.

And Obi-Wan seemed to be the better duelist in TCW as well, iirc.

Based on the cave encounter? That was entirely circumstantial and can more or less be equated to PIS as well. The novelized version of the fight (and the one above) explain the circumstances in greater detail, but essentially Obi-Wan was taking by surprise by switching to a more aggressive form and exploiting the confines of the cave which kept the brothers from maneuvering efficiently.

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#38 Posted by SincereAgape (73 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: It might not have been a clean victory, but Obi Wan defeated Darth Maul in a death battle. They fought and Darth Maul was defeated.

Grievous beat Maul in the trade paperback Sons of Dathomir (which is what would have happened if the clone wars continued according to the creators). It was a military battle in which GG and his droids fought Maul + Death Watch + the Black Suns. GG lost many droids but he destroyed Maul's army. When they dueled it was pretty even, but Grievous gained the upper-hand with a kick to the stomach. GG did not follow up because there was a greater plan in the works.

Maul later subdued GG, but that is after getting the jump on him (GG later escaped by killing Death Watch members).

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#39 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@sincereagape:

1. As I said, that was through PIS, and it isn't worth mentioning on the battle forums. Maul defeated him in a genuine contest and Obi-Wan survived and won through plot armor.

2. I'd like to see that creator quote, but "landing a kick" is hardly a showing of victory. Throughout SW history they've been numerous fights where one combatant lands a kick or blow to the other combatant but ultimately ends up losing. Maul & Grievous' encounters in SoD were all too short and inconclusive to determine a true victor.

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#40 Posted by SincereAgape (73 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

1.) The battle between Obi Wan and Maul in Episode 1 can be interpreted in many ways. It was an entertaining fight and light saber duel between Maul and the two Jedi is probably the best part of the movie. I believe we see this differently and I won't change my mind on this.

2.) Fair point in the duel aspect. Grievous did beat him in a military battle (Which is to be expected). If anything, SoD shows that a battle between Maul and GG in terms of a duel can be labeled as a push. Maul did throw GG off whatever cliff it was with a TP, but GG has the last laugh in the end.

I would not say Jango is utterly outclassed however. Pre Vizsla vs Darth Maul was a close fight. Switch Pre Vizsla with Jango Fett in that battle and it is a coin flip.

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#41 Posted by sXe619 (544 posts) - - Show Bio

rofl @ Grievous kicking Maul back being considered a "win" in a fight. If we're going to use this kind of logic, we might as well say Maul defeated Grievous as well when he tackled him, or when he pushed him back with TK.

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#42 Posted by Eisenfauste (17366 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul

Silver has some incredible commentary in here.

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#43 Edited by Erkan12 (8254 posts) - - Show Bio

@sincereagape said:

Maul is a tad bit overrated in terms or power level. He has lost to numerous opponents (Kenobi, Darth Sidious, GG).

I think you hate Maul instead of Maul being overrated. How is Maul losing to GG ? And how did he lose to Kenobi while Kenobi was completely unarmed and surprised him with Qui-Gon's forgotten lightsaber or did you missed the whole duel where Maul comfortably deal with them at the same time ?

Not to mention Sidious ? Lol.

The question is, would Maul give an attention to a kick ? His durability is so good for bothering to defend himself from GG's petty kick, since we know that he can even resist to Sidious' kick,

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Which is nothing in comparison with GG, while we know that Maul actually physically hurt Grievous when he tackled him and CAPTURED him, see the speech balloon of GG.

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And he also hurt him with a powerful Force blast either. See the reaction.

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#44 Posted by SincereAgape (73 posts) - - Show Bio

I am actually not a Maul hater. I'm just debating in a friendly manner with others. If I had to rank the three villains from Episodes 1-3 in terms of power level it would be..

Grievous/Maul then Jango.

In SoD, it was all apart of the Emperor's plan to lure Maul into a false sense of security in order to get to mother talzin. The capture of Dooku and Grievous was apart of the plan. The above 'tackle' was a surprise attack from behind (which I do give credit to him for).

In the prior battle regardless if it was a simple 'kick' by Grievous had the upper hand in their duel and defeated Maul in a military battle in the classic argument of quantity vs quality. Sure grievouos sent his magna guards to soften maul up, however that is the General using his resources to his maximum ability.

I have Maul credit for the force push, but Grievous in the end plunged his light sabers into Mother Talzin resulting in a victory for his side. If anything SoD showed that Grievous and Maul are equal and that there was no certain winner.

Back on topic: I'm not saying Jango would win, what I am saying is that it would be a better match up then a simple slaughter or that
Maul totally outclasses Jango Fett.

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#45 Edited by Erkan12 (8254 posts) - - Show Bio

@sincereagape said:

The capture of Dooku and Grievous was apart of the plan.

To lure Talzin was their plan, but that was surely not.

Maul could easily kill Dooku and Grievous, that's absolutely not the main plan. That's why Sidious said that ''Lord Tyranus you disappoint me...''

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@sincereagape said:

If anything SoD showed that Grievous and Maul are equal and that there was no certain winner.

Maul said that Grievous was no match for himself, and Grievous didn't even bother to reply that, GG also used his MagnaGuards for tire him before that face-off, and Maul surely isn't seeing him as his equal.

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Maul : ''Grievous is a creature of limited scope.''

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#46 Posted by AdmiralLogic (4131 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts: I'd give it to Maul except for my limited knowledge on Jango. I know he was doing well against vader at one point but I also know a clone of Maul did to, and nearly won if it weren't for Mauls pride. I'd probably say Maul but a somewhat close fight.

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#47 Edited by SincereAgape (73 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: What is Sidious supposed to say there? It's him playing a poker face. Sidious cast away Maul as his apprentice a long time ago, and if he felt Maul was worthy would have brought him back into the fold.

Just because Maul said it, doesn't mean it's true. Grievous is not stupid enough to reply with something snarky or with a retort, doing could result in death. A wise and smart man knows when to keep his mouth shut. Also only someone having to prove himself to another has to say something about his own skill. To quote Tywin Lannister "Jugglers and dancers require an applause."

Grievous spoke through his actions later in the comic by escaping Maul's cell rather easily and in the process kill many of his men in a fluid motion. Grievous and Maul is another debate all together, and Darth Justicar on his youtube channel already broke down the fight between Grievous and Maul with Grievous winning.

And despite all of his tough talk, Maul lost in the end of the story. His brother is dead. His surrogate mother is dead. His alliances are broken and his forces have been decimated. I would say Grievous and his side came out on top.

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#48 Edited by Erkan12 (8254 posts) - - Show Bio

@sincereagape said:

@erkan12: What is Sidious supposed to say there? It's him playing a poker face. Sidious cast away Maul as his apprentice a long time ago, and if he felt Maul was worthy would have brought him back into the fold.

You're making up things here, Sidious pretends like innocent is your assumption, not mine. He simply said Lord Tyranus failed. Not to mention Maul could actually kill Dooku and Grievous, was that the part of Sidious' plans ?

As for Maul being not his apprentice, Sidious didn't know that Maul survived from Naboo, simple as that.

''I am most impressed to see you've survived your injuries.''

https://youtu.be/T9VWlrJJOJM?t=17

@sincereagape said:

Just because Maul said it, doesn't mean it's true. Grievous is not stupid enough to reply with something snarky or with a retort, doing could result in death. A wise and smart man knows when to keep his mouth shut. Also only someone having to prove himself to another has to say something about his own skill. To quote Tywin Lannister "Jugglers and dancers require an applause."

Then show me the part where Grievous says that Maul is his equal ? If you don't give credit Maul's statement, then you need to show the counter for it, until then, Maul is the only source you can use.

@sincereagape said:

Grievous spoke through his actions later in the comic by escaping Maul's cell rather easily and in the process kill many of his men in a fluid motion. Grievous and Maul is another debate all together, and Darth Justicar on his youtube channel already broke down the fight between Grievous and Maul with Grievous winning.

Interesting enough, Grievous says that to Mandalorian warriors ''Tell your master, send more men'' He is taking Maul's men as his rival, not Maul himself, even on the battlefield he aimed for Maul's Mandalorian commander first, not directly Maul.

@sincereagape said:

And despite all of his tough talk, Maul lost in the end of the story. His brother is dead. His surrogate mother is dead. His alliances are broken and his forces have been decimated. I would say Grievous and his side came out on top.

He lost because of Sidious, not because of Dooku or Grievous, if not for Sidious, Maul could easily rule the part of the Galaxy with his Galactic Underworld and Mandalore system, you can't give a credit for Grievous while he clearly outmatched and saved by Sidious in the end.

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#49 Posted by SincereAgape (73 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Grievous is responsible for Maul losing the majority of his forces, including one of his top captain within the Death Watch army. Grievous is also the one who plunged the light saber into Mother Taulzin. He recovered from the force push with minimal damage and was able to accomplish this feat. So Grievous had a hand in Maul's ultimate defeat.

Grievous told Maul to 'send more men' because he knew that if he dueled Maul at that moment the plan to use Maul to bring them to Taulzin's location would have been in jeopardized.

Grievous does not need to 'say' he is equal with Maul. He lets his actions do the talking. He did have the upper-hand in their first battle. If it comes from a 3rd party then a statement like "Maul is stronger then Grievous" has more credibility.

I'm not making things up in regards to Sidious. It is possible that at the moment he is playing a poker face, and that Dooku and Grievous's capture was apart of his ultimate plan to kill Taulzin. Without Dooku's body, Taulzin would not have brought back Maul in the first place, bringing Grievous and Sidious in the process.

Sidious's character is the MASTER of deception. Heck, the Clone Wars are based off him deceiving the entire galaxy so he can develop the Imperial Empire and bring the Sith back into power. Telling Maul that he is disappointed with Dooku being captured gives Maul a false sense of bravado and helps Maul lower his defenses psychologically. Maul is a very over-confident and prideful character, and Sidious knows this. To tap into Maul's pride brings about his ultimate defeat (See battle with Obi-Wan in Episode 1).

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#50 Posted by sXe619 (544 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get why people are trying to use quotes as evidence for why one person would win over another. Not to mention, this is a thread about Jango vs. Maul, not Grievous vs. Maul.

As for the fight, Maul should win. He would most likely abuse his TK if Fett begins dealing serious damage while using his jetpack.