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#1 Edited by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

James has all feats from of Alex and Greene. Raiden has all of his feats from every metal gear game.

Who wins this? James wins this in my opinion.

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#2 Posted by Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate (1669 posts) - - Show Bio

Raiden blitzes easy

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#3 Posted by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@hey_thatsmildlyadequate: How does he blitz? He barely out-ran a train which moves, like, 60-80mph. Heller is hypersonic by how he dodges bullets and missiles casually. It's the other way around really.

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#4 Posted by KingCrimson (5639 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward: True, but he also casually bullet times, has reacted to hypersonic projectiles, and can pretty much slow down time in blade mode. He’s faster than Heller.

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#5 Posted by assemblesquad (2918 posts) - - Show Bio

Raiden

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#6 Posted by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingcrimson: That only proves his reaction is supersonic, not his running speed. He barely out-run a train so he's never blitzing Heller. Also, he doesn't slow time. Don't know where you got that from.

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#7 Posted by KingCrimson (5639 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward: What does running speed matter when you can cut streams of bullets out of the air? Heller can only run about 150-200mph himself as far as I recall, so he’s hardly the flash.

I said pretty much - blade mode increases his perceptions and reflexes so much so that the world pretty much stops around him whilst he turns everything into confetti.

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#8 Edited by jonjizz (1026 posts) - - Show Bio

already done

anyway raiden can attack faster but that's about it, heller has more raw strength, durability, mobility and can also regenerate not to mention literally adapt his fighting style and body midfight in order to better fight his enemy, so heller should win

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#9 Edited by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingcrimson: Because you said Raiden blitzes when he doesn’t. And not true, Heller outruns bullets and missiles in the game. Outside the game, Mercer out-speed the said bullets and hypersonic missiles with ease in comics and cutscenes, and not to mention he reacted and outmaneuvered Greene’s hypersonic shock-wave. Heller is physically superior to Mercer in every stat. What has Raiden ever done remotely close to that?

That’s just gameplay mechanics effect. It doesn’t happen in canon.

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#10 Posted by Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate (1669 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward: There is a difference between combat and travel speed you know. Heller is not hypersonic in the slightest, idk where you got that from or that he blitzes. Raiden can perceive explosions in slow motion while it looks like he's still fighting at regular speed, cuts away bullets casually, plays hop scotch on supersonic missiles. Meanwhile Heller has no combat speed showings of any kind I can even recall that's even fte. So yes as of right now Raiden blitzes easily

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#11 Posted by KingCrimson (5639 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward: I don’t remember him ever outspeeding a bullet, not Mercer. You got anything to prove that claim? What hypersonic missile lol? What makes Greene’s shockwaves hypersonic exactly?

Doktor actually mentions that through a glucose-something injection system, he can increase his reflexes and speed drastically, so it’s completely canon.

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#12 Posted by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@hey_thatsmildlyadequate: Lol, both travel and combat require one thing: Speed.

-Dodging bullets requires +supersonic reflexes and speed, something Heller does on daily basis.

-Dodging guided missiles *hypersonic speed) which move at 25x speed of sound, which is what Heller does regularly.

-Physically superior to Alex Mercer in every stat speed included, as shown in their fight and Mercer does this easily:

No Caption Provided

So how does Raiden, a guy who barely out-runs a 80mph train blitz a hypersonic moving character? That's assuming you actually played Prototype.

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#13 Posted by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingcrimson: He's physically superior to Alex in every stat speed included, and Mercer dodged bullets so Heller does the same. Guided missiles move at hypersonic speed. The fact that it's a shockwave makes it so...lol. You don't know what shockwaves are?

You didn't provide the statement. There are no canon feats of him slowing time. It's gameplay mechanics effect.

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#14 Edited by Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate (1669 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward: running speed=/=how fast you can swing your arms in a fight. Every comic book street leveler and their mother has bullet timed, that doesn't mean they're moving around throwing punches that break the sound barrier.

Source for the missiles moving 25x speed of sound?

Ok and cool I guess, Mercer can dodge minigun fire. Raiden cuts away automatic bullets like nothing and like I said can see explosions in slow motion while he comparatively is still moving at normal speed, plays hopscotch on missiles as they're fired at him, etc.

And yes I've played both prototype 1 and 2 just so you know

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#15 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate.

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#16 Posted by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@hey_thatsmildlyadequate: And you think Raiden can swing his swing at hypersonic speed? Lol, if that was the case, we would see air friction or shock-waves every time he swings his sword. And I don't understand why you keep mentioning Raiden cutting bullets, as if that's supposed to mean anything. Heller would either dodge his blade with his superior reflexes or block it with his shield or his own blade, and proceeds to overpower Raiden.

All missiles move at hypersonic speed (10x speed of sound) my bad for saying 20. The missiles used in Prototype are that of anti-tank guided missiles Heller dodges them regularly, so that puts him at hypersonic reflexes and speed wise. Raiden has no speed feats that ever suggests he could blitz Heller, as you're said.

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#18 Edited by Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate (1669 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward: Just fyi, I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to debate on your own thread, but on topic.

Not every series has to abide by real world physics, obviously. Flash and superman don't always create sonic booms when they move around, so are you going to say they aren't even faster than sound? Raiden not creating shockwaves when he swings doesn't prove or disprove anything.

Heller doesn't have superior reflexes, this is you banking off of the statement you made about all missiles being hypersonic, which first off I'm going to need a source or proof for that. Second, that would help Raiden more than Heller if anything, considering he actually plays hopscotch along multiple missiles as they're fired at him, which is>>just dodging them.

So basically, Raiden is faster than Heller either way, hypersonic missiles or not, has the ability to cut him due to feats of slashing apart metal gears which can tank barrages of missiles, RPGs and are even implied to survive nukes and Heller not having and cutting resistance feats to help with that, and the durability to take any attack Heller throws at him, given he's been run through the gut and walked it off and taken hits from Amrstrong who blew up the excelsus and can throw massive amounts of scrap metal around larger than anything Heller or Mercer have done

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#19 Posted by PrimaInterPares (119 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh to both, but I'd say Raiden is physically superior, but Heller's power set may give him a chance.

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#20 Posted by CyberpunkCop (3406 posts) - - Show Bio

Raiden

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#21 Posted by TourneyMaster (1731 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward: missiles are not hyperaonic at all lmao. The fastest ones are Mach 2 and specialise as air to air missiles. Holy shit where you get your mis info?

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#22 Edited by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

''Just fyi, I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to debate on your own thread, but on topic.''

By whose rules?

''Not every series has to abide by real world physics, obviously. Flash and superman don't always create sonic booms when they move around, so are you going to say they aren't even faster than sound? Raiden not creating shockwaves when he swings doesn't prove or disprove anything.''

Okay, you have a point but you still haven't proven Raiden swinging his blade bypasses Heller's reaction time.

''Heller doesn't have superior reflexes, this is you banking off of the statement you made about all missiles being hypersonic, which first off I'm going to need a source or proof for that. Second, that would help Raiden more than Heller if anything, considering he actually plays hopscotch along multiple missiles as they're fired at him, which is>>just dodging them.''

Thousands of types of missiles exist for various purposes, they all travel at different speeds. Using modern day electromagnetic power, a missile can be launched at Mach 10 (ten time the speed of sound), this is equivalent to 3430 m/s (or 7,500 mph). This missile will be used for defense and may have a role similar to that of the Patriot missile. Planned for 2015 are high-speed missiles that will be used to take out enemy vehicles through sheer momentum. It is expected to fly at over 2100 m/s (3600 mph). These missiles are known as kinetic energy missiles. They are designed to take out tanks and other armored vehicles. In 1980 the fastest missile was made by a French company. The Super 530 can travel at Mach 4.5 or 1500 m/s. This was more than sufficient to take out the fastest fighter planes traveling at 2200 mph or 980 m/s. Slower missiles launched by rocket launcher supported by a man's shoulder only went 300 ft/s or 90 m/s.

Source - https://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/SeanManning.shtml

So what? Heller also dances around multiple missiles fired at him from tanks on land and helis on air. You're just saying things that are baseless.

''So basically, Raiden is faster than Heller either way, hypersonic missiles or not, has the ability to cut him due to feats of slashing apart metal gears which can tank barrages of missiles, RPGs and are even implied to survive nukes and Heller not having and cutting resistance feats to help with that, and the durability to take any attack Heller throws at him, given he's been run through the gut and walked it off and taken hits from Amrstrong who blew up the excelsus and can throw massive amounts of scrap metal around larger than anything Heller or Mercer have done''

-A guy who can barely out-run a train is faster than a supersonic-hypersonic guy? Lel.

-No proof metal gears are any more durable than modern military equipment. They weigh like, 500 ton or something. Meanwhile, Heller who scales to Mercer in physical strength (actually superior) can one-shot a Hive reinforced building with Bullet-Dive; Hive buildings have small city durability based on how they tank Blackwatch military fleet without damage. Not to mention they can damage extremely durable tank characters like Supreme Hunter and Greene, who both easily have city-level durability.

-Raiden never survived a nuke and was never implied. Please don't make things up. Alex did survive a nuke, however, and Heller was shattering Alex's durability so Heller can dish out an energy output comparable to an island-busting nuke like the one attempted on Manhattan in Prototype. Can Raiden do that? No.

-Being able to lift heavier stuff is the only thing Raiden has over Heller, but in terms of striking-power, Heller is leagues above him. Lifting heavier stuff won't help him anyway.

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#23 Posted by assemblesquad (2918 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by Red_Ruby_Petal (8239 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward:

And you think Raiden can swing his swing at hypersonic speed? Lol, if that was the case, we would see air friction or shock-waves every time he swings his sword.

We can already tell he can swing at hypersonic, in fact massively hypersonic speed just by virtue of being able to see perceive detonations at a crawl, detonations that already move at hypersonic, thus the character you are describing is already a snail compared to Raiden if he is just hypersonic which I doubt.

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With regards to shockwaves with swings he has already done these to a point where he cuts things with shockwaves or blade trajectories, without even touching them.

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-A guy who can barely out-run a train is faster than a supersonic-hypersonic guy? Lel.

Bring up one low showing for him, he already has multiple feats that already surpass this when he isn't jobbing.

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Do you have any idea how many characters in fiction are jobbing? Would you call the Thing barely street level because he couldn't catch up to a child, or Gladiator not being able to tank a fall to Earth despite tanking numerous high tier attacks?

The creators can do whatever they want to build suspense in the weirdest way they want to nerf the character, but that doesn't mean they don't intend for said character to be able to perform feats that are on the high hypersonic range. Raiden has blitzing capabilities from far distances and when he is hopping from missile to missile making them look slow, he is undoubtedly going hyper sonic and this is a consistent part of the character, or when he blitzes his opponents by dashing towards them. Dude this is like literally you're only counter argument to Raiden's speed, which isn't even consistent for him. How is that fair when you are consistently going on about city level, island level prototype characters?

And I am curious, playing the Devil's advocate and assuming Raiden is of similar speed, ( when he is clearly faster ), what suggests he can overpower/hurt Raiden, who has taken a beating from Armstrong who one shots large scale Metal Gears? The scaling you've is iffy, because Alex didn't take a nuke point blank, so its never going to be the same as taking one directly at your face. The output isn't all centered. And lets not pretend Alex isn't hurt by much much much less than a nuke. And dude, bullets can pierce this guy, there isn't a single thing suggested than Raiden can't tear him apart. In fact the real reason he survived was because of regeneration which can be overtaxed.

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#25 Posted by chaos_zelur (256 posts) - - Show Bio

Raiden bullies Heller.

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#26 Posted by Red_Ruby_Petal (8239 posts) - - Show Bio

@assemblesquad: I honestly think Raiden is several tiers above Heller.

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#27 Edited by assemblesquad (2918 posts) - - Show Bio

@red_ruby_petal: I agree with that. Bullets can pierce through Mercer and other Blacklight infected humans, because they're only relies on regeneration a little bit like Deadpool and Alucard.

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#28 Posted by Megafanflash (795 posts) - - Show Bio

Raiden is surprisingly powerful. Though I think its a stalemate.

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#29 Edited by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@red_ruby_petal:

''We can already tell he can swing at hypersonic, in fact massively hypersonic speed just by virtue of being able to see perceive detonations at a crawl, detonations that already move at hypersonic, thus the character you are describing is already a snail compared to Raiden if he is just hypersonic which I doubt.''

Detonations don't happen at hypersonic speed, that's scientifically false. That explosion in the image doesn't ever come close to being supersonic let alone hypersonic at all. It's just debris falling at normal rate. We humans would perceive that explosion just fine. And in regards to perceiving things in slow motion, Heller can do that by scaling him to Mercer, who perceived Greene's sonic shock-wave in slow motion > Raiden who perceives falling debris.

''With regards to shockwaves with swings he has already done these to a point where he cuts things with shockwaves or blade trajectories, without even touching them.''

Mercer creates shock-waves just by falling down on the ground.

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''Bring up one low showing for him, he already has multiple feats that already surpass this when he isn't jobbing.''

I was replying to the ridiculous notion Raiden is blitzing Heller, when he's got no feats suggesting he can. One of the prime examples is him barely catching up to a train. He has impressive reaction time and striking-speed, but his foot-speed isn't all that great.

''And I am curious, playing the Devil's advocate and assuming Raiden is of similar speed, ( when he is clearly faster ), what suggests he can overpower/hurt Raiden, who has taken a beating from Armstrong who one shots large scale Metal Gears? The scaling you've is iffy, because Alex didn't take a nuke point blank, so its never going to be the same as taking one directly at your face. The output isn't all centered. And lets not pretend Alex isn't hurt by much much much less than a nuke. And dude, bullets can pierce this guy, there isn't a single thing suggested than Raiden can't tear him apart. In fact the real reason he survived was because of regeneration which can be overtaxed.''

-Dude, stop. Alex doesn't have to tank the bomb to the face to say he tanked the nuke. The fact he was caught in the fireball (rewatch the video in YouTube) is enough. A nuke is like, 20% fireball and 80% shock-wave; even if he wasn't caught at point-blank, he still survived the remaining 70%-80% of the total blast. And this is what the nuke's destructive capacity:

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It's an island-buster easily in megaton range; it can annihilate all of Manhattan instantly. Alex survived this kind of power, and Heller who absorbed Alex can do so too. Raiden's punny attacks aren't doing a thing to Heller here.

-Heller can destroy Raiden based on the fact he destroyed Alex in the same state as he was when he was struck by a megaton nuke, which clearly suggests Heller's attacks in the short-term can produce an output close/comparable to that of a nuke.

-Stop bringing up Armstrong here. Armstrong's attacks don't produce nuke-equivalent output. Armstrong is at best a city block-buster.

-Pretty ironic how you say I lowballed Raiden's speed in the train example, yet you're lowballing Alex's durability because of gameplay mechanics. Yeah, no shit Alex is going to lose health in the gameplay if he's hit with bullets; what's the point of making a game, if you're making the character indestructible, when by canon-story he's almost? Raiden can get hurt by fodders in the game too.

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#30 Edited by Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate (1669 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward: you didn't tag me here, so I didn't see this until just now. And oh boy

I'm fairly certain the rules of the battles on this site say you can't debate on your own thread, I could be wrong so correct me if I am.

Prove that THOSE missiles specifically are hypersonic. And either way I don't think that's reliable given that's entirely gameplay and you can easily get tagged as well by missiles, but Raiden's missile feats are superior to Hellers again, given he leaps from missile to missile as they're fired at him. Heller cannot "dance" through multiple missiles fired at him, you can dodge like a few at most if they're fired at you in that game.

Travel speed doesn't equal combat and reactions, I keep saying that and you keep ignoring that. Heller can't even outrun helicopters in the game, by your own logic he isn't even subsonic or mach 1

Metal gears, the things that tank missiles and RPGs can't dent, and were implied to survive nukes aren't more durable than modern day military? Ok. Sure. But given in cinematics Raiden can cut them apart with one swing and it takes Heller and Alex several hits to destroy one tank unless they leap off a building a crush it, I'm going to back Raiden's damage output here

Alex didn't survive a nuke or has nuke level durability. You're grossly overhyping the feat. The nuke was under water in the ocean, Alex was seemingly hundreds of feet if not further away, got hit by the shockwave tail end of it, not the actual explosion and was still turned to paste and only survived because he absorbed a crow which happened to land nearby. So no, Heller is not city or island busting or anywhere near it.

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#31 Edited by Red_Ruby_Petal (8239 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward:

Detonations don't happen at hypersonic speed, that's scientifically false.

Yes they do,

https://science.howstuffworks.com/outrun-explosion2.htm

That explosion in the image doesn't ever come close to being supersonic let alone hypersonic at all.

That is because he is slowing in it slow motion, duh.

It's just debris falling at normal rate.

This sounds like a terrible claim on solid visual evidence.

We humans would perceive that explosion just fine.

Explosions are explosions by nature, and the only reason we are perceiving it is because we are looking at it in raiden's perception.

And in regards to perceiving things in slow motion, Heller can do that by scaling him to Mercer, who perceived Greene's sonic shock-wave in slow motion > Raiden who perceives falling debris.

Its bad enough you call actual detonations, which is clear from the GIF itself, falling debris. Want me to call Greene's sonic shock-wave falling debris too. Nope, I don't stoop that low.

Mercer creates shock-waves just by falling down on the ground.

Compared to ones that cut cyborgs and mechs? Really?

-Dude, stop. Alex doesn't have to tank the bomb to the face to say he tanked the nuke. The fact he was caught in the fireball (rewatch the video in YouTube) is enough. A nuke is like, 20% fireball and 80% shock-wave; even if he wasn't caught at point-blank, he still survived the remaining 70%-80% of the total blast. And this is what the nuke's destructive capacity:

No he didn't considering a lot of it is under water, and shockwaves become less impactful the father you are by a more significant degree. Thats not how it works. Its an omni directional blast, so the force isn't concentrated. He can't be taking 70-80% of the blast because to do so you'd have to assume he took he took a direct punch that is 70-80% of that power so that isn't how it works because the area of the shockwave is gigantically spread out. Shockwaves are only after effects of the real thing. Not only that, this isn't piercing resistance, so he has nothing to suggest he wouldn't be sliced to confetti.

It's an island-buster easily in megaton range; it can annihilate all of Manhattan instantly. Alex survived this kind of power, and Heller who absorbed Alex can do so too. Raiden's punny attacks aren't doing a thing to Heller here.

You can only vaguely assume how much of the force he actually took because he didn't take the brunt of it. And this isn't piercing resistance, so you have nothing to suggest he won't get cut. Nukes don't bust islands, where did you get that information? They can wipe out cities but can't wipe out actual landmass, hence why some Nukes can't bust mountains, let alone islands.

-Heller can destroy Raiden based on the fact he destroyed Alex in the same state as he was when he was struck by a megaton nuke, which clearly suggests Heller's attacks in the short-term can produce an output close/comparable to that of a nuke.

This claim is absurd, because they don't operate in the tier you are suggesting.

-Stop bringing up Armstrong here. Armstrong's attacks don't produce nuke-equivalent output. Armstrong is at best a city block-buster.

Because Alex didn't take the full brunt of a nuke equivalent attack, and your physics are far off. Regardless too, he can still be hurt by bullets which was shown it cutscenes, what really saves him is his regeneration.

-Pretty ironic how you say I lowballed Raiden's speed in the train example, yet you're lowballing Alex's durability because of gameplay mechanics.

Gameplay mechanics you say,

https://gfycat.com/elegantcolossalconch

sure I did just see Alex get shot.

Yeah, no shit Alex is going to lose health in the gameplay if he's hit with bullets; what's the point of making a game, if you're making the character indestructible, when by canon-story he's almost? Raiden can get hurt by fodders in the game too.

Well maybe I did not get my sources from gameplay now did I? Where did indestructible come from? Whenever he bleeds from every attack he takes?

FYI, Fodder use H/F blades, and fodder are cyborgs that have advanced from typical weaponry, which Alex gets hurt by.

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#32 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31711 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward said:

@hey_thatsmildlyadequate: And you think Raiden can swing his swing at hypersonic speed? Lol, if that was the case, we would see air friction or shock-waves every time he swings his sword. And I don't understand why you keep mentioning Raiden cutting bullets, as if that's supposed to mean anything. Heller would either dodge his blade with his superior reflexes or block it with his shield or his own blade, and proceeds to overpower Raiden.

All missiles move at hypersonic speed (10x speed of sound) my bad for saying 20. The missiles used in Prototype are that of anti-tank guided missiles Heller dodges them regularly, so that puts him at hypersonic reflexes and speed wise. Raiden has no speed feats that ever suggests he could blitz Heller, as you're said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_missiles_of_the_United_States_military

"All missiles" most certainly do NOT move at mach 10. Like.. What? Where in the hell did you even get that?

You're going to have to show what kind of missile is being used in the feat you're referring to.

Anti-tank missiles are surface to surface, and the majority of those aren't even mach 1.

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#33 Edited by HELLIOS (18 posts) - - Show Bio

Raiden, and this isn't fair for heller

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#34 Posted by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@hey_thatsmildlyadequate: ''I'm fairly certain the rules of the battles on this site say you can't debate on your own thread, I could be wrong so correct me if I am.''

Didn't read the rules so I don't know. What's the harm in debating in my thread with something I disagree with anyway?

''Prove that THOSE missiles specifically are hypersonic. And either way I don't think that's reliable given that's entirely gameplay and you can easily get tagged as well by missiles, but Raiden's missile feats are superior to Hellers again, given he leaps from missile to missile as they're fired at him. Heller cannot "dance" through multiple missiles fired at him, you can dodge like a few at most if they're fired at you in that game.''

The source says all missiles, the ones used in the game are air and land missiles, and Heller can dodge those easily. Also, I would include tanks propelled rounds used by the tanks in the game, and these can go 5 Mach. Raiden doesn't have anything over that.

''Travel speed doesn't equal combat and reactions, I keep saying that and you keep ignoring that. Heller can't even outrun helicopters in the game, by your own logic he isn't even subsonic or mach 1''

So what does it equal? Lol, the faster person is the one who runs faster. That's the universal standard of speed. Yet Raiden can barely out-run a 90 mph junk train, which you keep ignoring.

''Metal gears, the things that tank missiles and RPGs can't dent, and were implied to survive nukes aren't more durable than modern day military? Ok. Sure. But given in cinematics Raiden can cut them apart with one swing and it takes Heller and Alex several hits to destroy one tank unless they leap off a building a crush it, I'm going to back Raiden's damage output here''

Metal gears were never implied to survive nukes. Stop making things up. And they're not more durable than Hive buildings, which regularly tank military fleet of tanks and helicopters; the said buildings have at least small city durability. Mercer can one-shot those Hive buildings with Bullet Dive, and Heller is above Mercer in physical strength.

Also, you're wrong. Raiden's sword's ability is dismantling the atom bond of anything he slashes. It's not a destructive feat. He's not producing any output. And you can one-shot those tanks, depending on the power you use such as claw ground spike, air blade slash, tendrils etc. You must be so bad in the game not know any of these.

''Alex didn't survive a nuke or has nuke level durability. You're grossly overhyping the feat. The nuke was under water in the ocean, Alex was seemingly hundreds of feet if not further away, got hit by the shockwave tail end of it, not the actual explosion and was still turned to paste and only survived because he absorbed a crow which happened to land nearby. So no, Heller is not city or island busting or anywhere near it.''

Except that he was hit and did survive, how else can the events of Prototype 2 happen if he didn't survive? Lol, being hit by a nuke shock-wave alone and surviving is a power output beyond what ever Raiden could ever dream of producing. So Heller is too durable for Raiden in the end.

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#35 Posted by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@red_ruby_petal: ''Yes they do,''

Link doesn't work. Now that I look at the image again, Raiden wasn't even inside the explosion's radius.

''That is because he is slowing in it slow motion, duh.''

Which would be useless on Heller.

''Its bad enough you call actual detonations, which is clear from the GIF itself, falling debris. Want me to call Greene's sonic shock-wave falling debris too. Nope, I don't stoop that low.''

I was talking about Heller's ability to perceive things in slow motion, like how Mercer did to Greene's sonic shock-wave. Similar ability to Raiden.

''Compared to ones that cut cyborgs and mechs? Really?''

Powerful enough to flip a 2 ton car upside down. The shock-wave emitted from his Bulletdrop Dive can bust multi-tanks without physically touching them, and the move is nothing but sheer punch, so I dare to say the energy output is greater. Also, Raiden's sword ability is dismantling molecular bonds, so he doesn't really generate that much output.

''No he didn't considering a lot of it is under water, and shockwaves become less impactful the father you are by a more significant degree. Thats not how it works. Its an omni directional blast, so the force isn't concentrated. He can't be taking 70-80% of the blast because to do so you'd have to assume he took he took a direct punch that is 70-80% of that power so that isn't how it works because the area of the shockwave is gigantically spread out. Shockwaves are only after effects of the real thing. Not only that, this isn't piercing resistance, so he has nothing to suggest he wouldn't be sliced to confetti.''

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Don't know where you're getting ''lot of it'' from. The nuke hits water at 4:59 and it explodes at 5:06, so it was only submerging for 7 seconds before exploding, meaning it was like 15 feet below the surface, so no the water didn't absorb the impact in any way. The explosion was still practically over surface, and Mercer took the brunt of it both the heat and the shock-wave, as literally seen in the video. Raiden has never cut someone as durable as Heller, so he doesn't need resistance feat way. The fact he survived a nuke's heat, which can be as hot as the sun's core and survive its shock-wave is enough.

Also, I would add on that the Supreme Hunter says this to Mercer: ''When the weapon (nuke) detonates and they think the infection is cleansed, they won't be looking for me. Because when I consume you, I'll be able to withstand, even this (nuclear bomb)'' or something along those lines. It's pretty obvious the developers intended Mercer to survive the nuke.

''You can only vaguely assume how much of the force he actually took because he didn't take the brunt of it. And this isn't piercing resistance, so you have nothing to suggest he won't get cut. Nukes don't bust islands, where did you get that information? They can wipe out cities but can't wipe out actual landmass, hence why some Nukes can't bust mountains, let alone islands.''

The nuke was supposed to blow up Manhattan. What do you think Manhattan is? An island. And I posted the image of the nuke flat-out demolishing Manhattan, if Mercer fails in the last mission, so I don't know why you're questioning this.

''Because Alex didn't take the full brunt of a nuke equivalent attack, and your physics are far off. Regardless too, he can still be hurt by bullets which was shown it cutscenes, what really saves him is his regeneration.''

The cutscenes never show Mercer or Heller being hurt by bullets, only gameplay mechanics as it happens to Raiden too. If they do, please show me one.

''FYI, Fodder use H/F blades, and fodder are cyborgs that have advanced from typical weaponry, which Alex gets hurt by.''

Doesn't change the fact those weapons are fodder to what Heller or Alex have. Doesn't change the fact Raiden gets hurt by those typical weapons. Now imagine if Raiden gets hit by Heller, when he gets hurt by those fodders.

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#36 Edited by Red_Ruby_Petal (8239 posts) - - Show Bio

@woodward:

Link doesn't work. Now that I look at the image again, Raiden wasn't even inside the explosion's radius.

What does being inside explosion radius have to do with seeing them move at a crawl?

I was talking about Heller's ability to perceive things in slow motion, like how Mercer did to Greene's sonic shock-wave. Similar ability to Raiden.

You were calling explosions in rising falling debris, which is extremely asinine. Now if he does have a similar ability, prove he can perceive something to the same extent as Raiden does.

Powerful enough to flip a 2 ton car upside down. The shock-wave emitted from his Bulletdrop Dive can bust multi-tanks without physically touching them, and the move is nothing but sheer punch, so I dare to say the energy output is greater. Also, Raiden's sword ability is dismantling molecular bonds, so he doesn't really generate that much output.

Raiden does that through wind pressure and not by coming into contact with something which makes it infinitely better, and the fact he is cutting cyborgs and giant mechs without touching them already puts his damage output far above what you just put in. It doesn't even matter if its the sword's ability that causes him to cut things without touching them, because its part of his gear and what he does so you can't act like its not there, that puts him above Mercer in the damage category.

And besides, its not like flipping 2 ton cars upside down is anywhere near comparable to flipping a dozen armored trucks which each of them individually weighing 10x more than a car, coming at Raiden at high speed, and he just parries it.

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Don't know where you're getting ''lot of it'' from. The nuke hits water at 4:59 and it explodes at 5:06, so it was only submerging for 7 seconds before exploding, meaning it was like 15 feet below the surface, so no the water didn't absorb the impact in any way. The explosion was still practically over surface, and Mercer took the brunt of it both the heat and the shock-wave, as literally seen in the video. Raiden has never cut someone as durable as Heller, so he doesn't need resistance feat way. The fact he survived a nuke's heat, which can be as hot as the sun's core and survive its shock-wave is enough.

The nuke's heat is only ever hot enough when you take it point blank, and it dissipates massively. You can only vaguely assume how much of the actual nuke did he took and being knocked away that far of a distance from the outline of a shockwave he didn't take it as if it were actually punching you. The physics behind a nuke isn't as you assumed it would be and you probably don't get the concept of resistances either. Heat is different from cutting, so unless you prove Mercer has piercing resistance feats that allow him to survive a swing, let alone one that doesn't even need to touch him to cut. Moreover he has been hurt by much much less than a nuke.

Also, I would add on that the Supreme Hunter says this to Mercer: ''When the weapon (nuke) detonates and they think the infection is cleansed, they won't be looking for me. Because when I consume you, I'll be able to withstand, even this (nuclear bomb)'' or something along those lines. It's pretty obvious the developers intended Mercer to survive the nuke.

They intended Mercer to survive a nuke from that distance and look like he burned up completely to a point there was hardly much flesh in him, that and they still make it clear the reason he survives is his because of his regen.

The nuke was supposed to blow up Manhattan. What do you think Manhattan is? An island. And I posted the image of the nuke flat-out demolishing Manhattan, if Mercer fails in the last mission, so I don't know why you're questioning this.

Do you know the difference between city busting and island busting? You'd have to be destroying the actual mass of the island to be considered island busting rather than wiping buildings away. That is why I question you saying a nuke is island busting. Nukes can't destroy landmass, just like they can't destroy mountains. The reason they wipe out buildings is because they brittle and the shockwave covers a large area.

The cutscenes never show Mercer or Heller being hurt by bullets, only gameplay mechanics as it happens to Raiden too. If they do, please show me one.

Or maybe you just skipped this out when I put this in my post

https://gfycat.com/elegantcolossalconch

I'll add one extra

https://gfycat.com/coldmetallicicelandgull

Now who do I see bleeding here? And was it from gameplay?

Doesn't change the fact those weapons are fodder to what Heller or Alex have.

Sure.....

https://gfycat.com/impishinsignificantleafbird

Did I see him bleed from a typical combat knife? Can you even compare that knife to this?

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It doesn't become a fact unless you actually prove those weapons are fodder to Alex and Heller, because they would have no problem cutting them like wet tissue paper literally when the fact is that bullets actually make them bleed and Raiden cuts bullet proof mechs like theres no tomorrow. Heller is fodder to Raiden.

Doesn't change the fact Raiden gets hurt by those typical weapons. Now imagine if Raiden gets hit by Heller, when he gets hurt by those fodders.

Yeah prove Heller hits harder than a guy who does this.

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#37 Edited by chaos_zelur (256 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by assemblesquad (2918 posts) - - Show Bio

I think we should see a CaV with it between woodward (James Heller) and Red_Ruby_Petal (Raiden).

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#39 Posted by Woodward (191 posts) - - Show Bio