Jaina Solo Runs An Ancient Sith Gauntlet

• Darth Andeddu
• Karness Muur
• Marka Ragnos
• Ulic Qel-Droma
• Darth Malak (fight takes place on the Star Forge)

Location - starting distance is 25 feet

Rules:

• Standard gear
• In-character
• Full recovery after each round
• Fight to the death
• Against Darth Malak, the fight will take place on the Star Forge, under the same conditions as Revan and Malak's duel. Malak does not have access to any Jedi to drain, however.

Andeddu - she beats him, fair and square. Her showings of fodderizing 3 Sith in a second (while iirc injured), beating Vong and her general hype of being the best Jedi (bar Luke) in FotJ should put her solidly above her opponent, even though he's pretty powerful and knowledgable.

Muur - Living Muur is pretty vague, but assuming he's close to Muurne and that Muurne ~ Vong Krayt, he wins.

Ragnos - Jaina >> Korr > Marka. :>

Ulic - I'd need to reread TotJ, but Ulic scaling far above Ommin, blitzing Null's gang pre-prime and being equal to Exar a few months before their prime seems above her paygrade.

Malak - considering that he's >> Kun, he should ragdoll.

malak is above kun? Hmmm must have missed that lore. Anyway jaina should stop at Ulic.

@jirou: We actually got confirmation on it.

https://i.imgur.com/vg83pvV.png

The rationale is, the star maps contributed massively to the power wielded by the likes of Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Sorzus Syn etc. These star maps being a mere fraction of the power provided by the Star Forge, which Malak was able to harness and master. So as the quote goes, the Star Forge is responsible for Malak's extraordinary powers.

Stops at Malak.

@killbilly: Now you have my attention. Why do you give her the edge over the rest?

Jaina Solo is a pretty interesting case because she should be really powerful, but by most actual demonstrations and even accolades really isn't. She should have the same potential as Jacen given that they're twins and Force potential appears to be genetic in Star Wars (e.g. clones like Starkiller), and has had like three decades to develop that potential under incredibly combat extensive circumstances being trained by various elite Force users like Luke and Kyp. But then even by LotF she doubts whether she's better than council members like Saba and Katarn, and doesn't have any particularly "wow!" feats. Then again, the post-Dark Nest EU is pretty devoid of monster-feats outside of the occasional Luke one, even by people who are by explicit accolades really powerful, e.g. Caedus. Not sure whether we should take this reverse power creep at face value or try to adjust for it.

How Jaina stacks up against council members like Katarn by FotJ is unclear but I'm going to take a bit of a leap of faith and say that she's above all of them sans Luke and maybe Kyp by this point. Her mediocre showings can largely be justified either out-of-universe by the writing style or in-universe by Jedi restraint (given that we don't even see Luke do much really outlandish in FotJ despite him obviously being able to). As a Skywalker in her thirties, there's no way she isn't far more powerful than, say, Darth Bane (given Bane's age + potential far below Sidious's) - if she were undershooting her potential by that much it probably would've been mentioned and worried over a lot more by characters in-universe, but they are all rather impressed by her abilities. That means she beats Andeddu, who Bane beat pretty easily. Indeed, many of these Sith in their primes weren't *that* much older than Jaina and had far lesser potential, so she should defeat all of them with the possible exceptions being Ragnos and SF Malak. (I know power growth in Star Wars can be really random but Jaina is in her thirties, so it's not a case of early-career power fluctuations. Also we have nothing else really except that Jaina is heavily implied to be weaker than Vader.)

Malak or clear...

@master_ellimist: Welcome to Comic Vine, Sheevite brother of mine :)

If Ulic doesn't stop her, Malak stops her.

@i_like_swords: Mostly being placed => Kyp Durron as an all out combatant as of FotJ. While this doesn't necessitate her being more powerful then him it does indicate parity or closeness at the very least. I think that's enough to allow her to take a slight majority against the likes of Muur and Ragnos and beat the rest. Though I admit it's possible she stops at Ragnos if Luke's statements about him are even close to accurate.

@killbilly: I don't think Jaina is as powerful as Kyp, by a longshot, but she is the better fighter overall. However, you would then need to make a case for Kyp's own talents as a warrior.

But, that is a good point, nonetheless. If Jaina is more useful than someone who can turn around singularities which apparently simulate the mass of a planet, and are comparable to gravity wells which can pull ships out of hyperspace, etc... then she's clearly something special.

@i_like_swords: Where is that Malak quote from?

That Malak quote is.....questionable

The idea that Jaina beats Ragnos is memeworthy, through scaling alone. Hell I don't even think she beats Muur

@thevivas: His Wizards of the Coast profile. As it turns out, the source is perfectly valid, too. It went through Lucas Films Licensing like all other content and was personally approved by Leland Chee of all people.

It may be something to do with KOTOR III, as well, because in that game they were going to begin introducing some ludicrously powerful characters. The power creep in that franchise was getting out of hand.

Eh, the Malak quote seems pretty legit.

Out of universe: Leland Chee apparently personally went over each of those WOTC blog posts and cited them as among his favorite parts of the EU for some reason.

In universe: it makes sense that mastering the Star Forge would give you insane powers given how much the thing is hyped (able to produce an entire fleet of warships, far greater than the star maps that gave the original exiles a significant portion of their powers, etc.).

Jaina should be more powerful than Ragnos by her lineage, even if she doesn't have particularly impressive feats or great hype. Ragnos and Malak are the two hardest matches for her here though, IMO.

Nope.

http://i.imgur.com/am6Mitv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/X1ygJzZ.jpg

Most importantly:

@i_like_swords: Huh. Thats new

@i_like_swords: That’s the same source that says Bastilla is a Count Dooku/Obi-Wan Kenobi level combatant right?

But then again if it went through all of that and was approved by Chee, the only reason to doubt it would be for personal reasons. Thanks.

Ragnos was THE greatest of the ancient Sith Lords. Greater than Muur. Greater than Sorzus Syzn, and Ajunta Pall. Muur was implied to be above Vader. I cant see her beating Muur or Ragnos for that reason

@decaf_wizard: You're telling me.

Basically means that SF Malak is superior to Exar Kun and all of the other ancient Sith by a seemingly huge margin. But to add fuel to the fire, light-sided Revan fought through the immense dark side nexus of the Star Forge, killing armies of soldiers, Sith and war machines, defeated Bastila Shan, and then not only defeated Malak once, but defeated him several times because he kept healing himself by draining the nearby Jedi.

And yet... he's still yet to become more powerful by the novel, and then reach his peak in SWTOR: Shadow of Revan. Guy is totally broken now.

Thankfully, the Bastila source was referring purely to RPG game mechanics.

So basically through scaling Revan is like Sheev level now.........ok den

Vader considered the possibility that if he wore the Muur Talisman, he would be trading one master for another... this was Vader 3 months after Revenge of the Sith.

Furthermore, Celeste Morne, who this version of Vader was more powerful than, was powerful enough to remain in control of Muur's spirit, which was sharing her mind, for well over a century.

So really, even 19BBY Vader would do pretty well against Vader, let alone 0BBY or 3ABY.

Nope. Because:

Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

—Star Wars Fact Files

Meaning Mace Windu as of The Phantom Menace is more powerful than Revan as of the Revan novel. At that time, Mace Windu was more or less an equal for Jedi Dooku, who grew even more powerful as a Sith... and yet as a Sith, Darth Sidious makes him look like an insect.

Do we actually know that?

@master_ellimist: I've had a look at nearly all of the pertinent quotes, and I think the evidence in favour of that outweighs the reverse.

@i_like_swords:

Can you make a summary/paragraph to support this?

@slayedigneel: I don't have all the material on-hand, but my main point is that Yoda has plenty of quotes proclaiming him to be the most powerful Jedi ever, with the highest midichlorian count ever recorded until Anakin. In kind, there are enough quotes suggesting parity and rivalry between Dooku and Windu as Jedi for me to believe they are roughly equal; the idea Windu is on-par with Yoda and significantly better than Dooku makes little sense to me, especially when you consider Mace's nowhere near Yoda level feats all throughout the clone wars.

There are quotes you can use to support any side of the equation, but my position is also supported by feats.

Stops at Murr, his Lightning is too OP

Maybe not as of FotJ, but she should be at least close to the version who manipulated singularities since that occurred over half a decade prior to that statement.

@i_like_swords: Ok, no Rush. You should make a thread/blog on it. Because their is so many contradictory quotes, in regards to scaling etc, it would be nice to see a definite picture.

@slayedigneel: I could look into doing that. Could post everything in one thread, along with the date of publication and all the relevant context, get a definite answer.

It's always possible that Yoda had slowed down by TPM but picked things back up as the threat of the Sith became a thing and especially through the Clone Wars.

@master_ellimist: Hmmm, that would make some sense, as Yoda was nearing the end of his life, so he would of took a more mentor approach, until TCW etc.

@master_ellimist: Is there any evidence of that theory?

More to the point, Yoda was untouchable by a trio consisting of Depa Billaba, Saesee Tiin and Plo Koon even before TPM, a feat Windu cannot stake any claim to.

Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.

"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."

And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique.

—Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

@i_like_swords: That would be great TBH, could help clear out a lot of confusion within TPM/TCW time frame, though no rush, take time, and have others participate in building it.

It's a possibility. It also accounts for the discrepancy with Yoda and the Muntuur Stones.

@shootingnova: With the Muntuur stones, it doesn't necessarily have to be viewed as regression. "Since age 700, only five have I been able to lift" (paraphrased) could be seen as Yoda growing more powerful too, if you look at it in a certain way. In the context of the rest of the lore, this would be the most valid interpretation in my opinion.

@azronger: didn't understand how you explain this quote as a proof of Yoda growing... Can you please precise your point ?

The corridor quote itself puts Mace above Dooku in power.

@azronger: I realise; I made that argument a few times in the past. It is possible that Yoda was just not that overwhelmingly powerful for the first seven centuries of his life, and just grew exponentially during his eighth. even if it doesn't seem to make much sense. But the idea that he declined for a while and "retrained" so to speak upon the return of the Sith is also possible. Regardless of the argument used, it's evident that Yoda grew since he made that comment in Manual and it's not a valid mark against him.

@lordofthelight: You are completely right.

And if we start delegitimizing this quote for Dooku, then you know exactly what happens.

@slayedigneel

Dooku is obviously close to Mace, as per other indications.

I was just saying that according to the quote, Mace is better.

@lordofthelight: Agreed.

Clears effortlessly.

@lordwhis2:

How is Jaina clearing this, never mind effortlessly?

@dark-sith123: She somewhat scales to Luke. That's enough to clear this effortlessly by SW law.

@lordwhis2: Does she really "scale" to Luke? By LotF at least the gap between them is pretty massive, by Jaina's own admission (indeed, when Luke amped her enough that Caedus thought he was fighting Luke, Jaina described the powers she felt as surreal - it clearly wasn't a small gap).

@master_ellimist: My personal opinion was that Luke only really went way beyond her in FOTJ. I mean Jaina is the sword of the Jedi. Didn't Jaina's training with fett and shatterpoints by Luke which improved her massively happen after that fight ?

But still, Caedus could somewhat hold off Luke and Jaina did beat an injured Caedus. The gap between Luke and everybody else is massive enough for Jaina to clear easily.

Even if we assume that Caedus is half of Luke and Jaina is half of Caedus then she would still be a quarter of Luke frigging Skywalker, more than enough to stomp all but a few force users in history (none of which are in this gauntlet)

I personally believe that Jaina had surpassed her brother by the time of FOTJ honestly and was even stronger than a pre-pilgrimage Luke.